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Rumor: Shadow of the Tomb Raider leaked [Up: Kotaku says real, by Eidos Montreal]

RagnarokX

Member
Sep 16, 2006
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Well, the reboot series certainly is a shadow of Tomb Raider.

Still so funny to me that people are like "Lara has no personality anymore"

Lara Croft never had a personality, she had big breasts which a lot of people seemed to confuse for a personality. There was literally nothing to her before, she would just spout witty quips as she went around killing everything and people got tired of it by the time Underworld came around which is why it flopped. The nostalgia vision is strong.
She had personality. The games just didn't shove it in your face all the time. The first game introduces Lara and right away you understand that she's a globetrotting adventurer who cares more about the thrill of adventuring than money. And really that's all you need. The games aren't heavily character driven dramas; they're games where the gameplay and level design is front and center.

Ever since CD took over they decided Lara couldn't just be strong and adventurous on her own. In the backstory Core made Lara's parents disowned her because her adventurous lifestyle embarrassed them. When CD rebooted the series the first time they made her following in her father's footsteps and made her motivated to adventure to find her missing mother. When they rebooted it a second time they tossed her on death island, had a guy try to rape her, and turned her into Rambo.

Why can't we just go on an adventure where it's just Lara alone in ruins with no support crew and the game doesn't keep telling us what to do and where to go with good level design that doesn't explode and minimal combat?
 

sense

Member
Aug 4, 2012
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I will be interested once they present a good story with a supporting cast that I can give a shit about.
 

vivekTO

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Oct 10, 2014
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They fixed the input lag and the tools you have at your disposal for the combat arenas really run circles around uncharted. ND promoted stealth gameplay yet provided literally one way to quietly dispose of enemies and thanks to the focus on the story over player agency you only ever have the set of tools that ND want you to have, I mean, in TR you're a straight up predator.

They only need to make some small adjustments, like not using cinematic camera angles for stealth kills.
Sorry this looks weird , why she jumps 5 feet for the contextual animation to play, after killing the first guy. Again maybe for you its look great, but for me its look jerky. I don't understand the sudden cut?

And yes the gameplay of the reboots are fantastic , I played through the first twice, and it never felt like a chore to do , Not played any uncharted by the way. But for me the fix should be done to the story and the characters of the reboot. I didn't care for it on my playthrough of first game, and that is why i am not keen on playing the second game, Although the gameplay is great,so eidos should stick to that for upcoming game.
 

Yabberwocky

Member
Jan 25, 2013
3,959
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Depending on how much freedom EM gets, it could be quite interesting - but alas, it'll be more of the same. I enjoyed the gameplay of the rebooted franchise (TR13 had a great focus), but Camilla Luddington + Reboot!Lara + the overall writing is frustrating. I wish the rebooted franchise took itself a little less seriously, because it's a pretty odd dissonance between a gritty coming of age story whilst also trying to be action-adventure game where every little bit of scenery breaks within two seconds of Lara stepping on it. Then she moans for a minute. Then repeat.

...I thought I'd keep my reboot bitterness in, but nope, still came out. Sigh.

Still so funny to me that people are like "Lara has no personality anymore"

Lara Croft never had a personality, she had big breasts which a lot of people seemed to confuse for a personality. There was literally nothing to her before, she would just spout witty quips as she went around killing everything and people got tired of it by the time Underworld came around which is why it flopped. The nostalgia vision is strong.
Honestly, I'd rather one-dimensional snarky Lara than boringly generic wet sock Reboot!Lara. The original Lara is still a rare power-fantasy female protagonist, I thought she was the Coolest Thing Ever when I was a kid. Indiana Jones? Eh, he's okay. Lara Freakin' Croft was the best.

She had personality. The games just didn't shove it in your face all the time. The first game introduces Lara and right away you understand that she's a globetrotting adventurer who cares more about the thrill of adventuring than money. And really that's all you need. The games aren't heavily character driven dramas; they're games where the gameplay and level design is front and center.

Ever since CD took over they decided Lara couldn't just be strong and adventurous on her own. In the backstory Core made Lara's parents disowned her because her adventurous lifestyle embarrassed them. When CD rebooted the series the first time they made her following in her father's footsteps and made her motivated to adventure to find her missing mother. When they rebooted it a second time they tossed her on death island, had a guy try to rape her, and turned her into Rambo.

Why can't we just go on an adventure where it's just Lara alone in ruins with no support crew and the game doesn't keep telling us what to do and where to go with good level design that doesn't explode and minimal combat?
Yep, really well put. The paragraph I bolded was one of my favourite elements of the original Lara Croft. It was really rare to have a female character being an adventurer because she enjoyed it. To say I really dislike a lot of what CD has done with Lara as a character over the years would be putting it mildly.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Feb 14, 2014
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Sorry this looks weird , why she jumps 5 feet for the contextual animation to play, after killing the first guy. Again maybe for you its look great, but for me its look jerky. I don't understand the sudden cut?

And yes the gameplay of the reboots are fantastic , I played through the first twice, and it never felt like a chore to do , Not played any uncharted by the way. But for me the fix should be done to the story and the characters of the reboot. I didn't care for it on my playthrough of first game, and that is why i am not keen on playing the second game, Although the gameplay is great,so eidos should stick to that for upcoming game.
Again they need to get rid of that contextual camera for takedowns and move to a more modern seamless system that doesn't break the flow of the visuals.
 

Vuze

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Nov 13, 2013
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Oh so this is real?! (Well, atleast with more credible sourcing than the shitty sub pic)
Great, can't wait to see and hear more :)
 

KingBroly

Banned
Mar 18, 2015
23,759
0
0
Well, the reboot series certainly is a shadow of Tomb Raider.

She had personality. The games just didn't shove it in your face all the time. The first game introduces Lara and right away you understand that she's a globetrotting adventurer who cares more about the thrill of adventuring than money. And really that's all you need. The games aren't heavily character driven dramas; they're games where the gameplay and level design is front and center.

Ever since CD took over they decided Lara couldn't just be strong and adventurous on her own. In the backstory Core made Lara's parents disowned her because her adventurous lifestyle embarrassed them. When CD rebooted the series the first time they made her following in her father's footsteps and made her motivated to adventure to find her missing mother. When they rebooted it a second time they tossed her on death island, had a guy try to rape her, and turned her into Rambo.

Why can't we just go on an adventure where it's just Lara alone in ruins with no support crew and the game doesn't keep telling us what to do and where to go with good level design that doesn't explode and minimal combat?
The first backstory of Lara's character sounds more interesting to me than 'OMG! SURVIVE BY MURDER LARA!' says the evil old man without a mustache to twirl that they have now. It's simple, and implies so much. But I guess nowadays game makers feel that people are too stupid to comprehend anything.
 

vivekTO

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Oct 10, 2014
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Again they need to get rid of that contextual camera for takedowns and move to a more modern seamless system that doesn't break the flow of the visuals.
Its weird... I thought you just said, in this very thread , that less animation priority and unrealistic animations makes the gameplay Satisfying?

Although its true that sometimes unrealistic animations led to more responsive controls/animation , something like in TLOU . the hand to hand combat is done using a trick , The snapping of the enemy at the point of contact, its unrealistic but gives you a better sense of responsive combat and control. let me find the video or i think its in grounded documentary ,making of last of us.

Here it is:
https://youtu.be/yH5MgEbBOps?t=1h6m1s
 

Markitron

Is currently staging a hunger strike outside Gearbox HQ while trying to hate them to death
Aug 24, 2010
12,116
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If they cut out all the collect-a-thon nonsense from Rise, then I'm all in. I really only notice the pacing of a game when it's really good (RE4) or really bad, and RotTR had the worst pacing of any game I have ever played. I don't know wha they were thinking with those RPG-Lite hub areas, it felt like I was playing Dragon Age Inquisition again.

Decent combat balance would be nice as well, Lara was basically a T-1000 by about the halfway point in the game.
 

HYDE

Member
Feb 21, 2009
3,912
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0
Reboot it again. I have no interest of playing a third game in the current gameplay style.
It's better than it's ever been, Uncharted TPS style is the way to go. They can improve story and puzzles and personality, etc...but the base gameplay is outstanding imo.
 

I Wanna Be The Guy

U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!
Apr 4, 2013
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It's better than it's ever been, Uncharted TPS style is the way to go. They can improve story and puzzles and personality, etc...but the base gameplay is outstanding imo.
The base gameplay is the wrong goddamn genre. The fact you used the words Uncharted style says it all. I don't want Uncharted style. I want Tomb Raider style.
 

HYDE

Member
Feb 21, 2009
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0
The base gameplay is the wrong goddamn genre. The fact you used the words Uncharted style says it all. I don't want Uncharted style. I want Tomb Raider style.
Gameplay has nothing to do with genre. Perspective doesn't either. I finally like Tomb Raider since 2013. Hated the originals...Legend and Underworld were decent.
 

Rymuth

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Jun 8, 2014
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Depending on Crystal Dynamics getting the boot (or at least, not being the developer in creative control) I *might* actually come back. I skipped RottR.

Now tell me the writer's gone as well and I'll bump up my *might* to *very likely*
 

jelly

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Oct 14, 2013
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The new Tomb Raider would be a lot better if there was a challenge in platforming and puzzles. The action is fine to have but it's still not very good, the sandbox is very limited, the enemies are no challenge, encounters are supremely dull except maybe the odd stealth section but again the game play is weak, the atmosphere is pretty excellent though in a few play spaces but you need more than that. ROTTR weapons were absolute rubbish, upgrades were mostly worthless. Could someone please do a game plus mode but for that you need a better sandbox and enemy encounters which these games don't have yet. The items to collect etc. yeah that made the game like treacle. There is some good in the game but it needs to improve a lot.
 

I Wanna Be The Guy

U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!
Apr 4, 2013
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Gameplay has nothing to do with genre. Perspective doesn't either. I finally like Tomb Raider since 2013. Hated the originals...Legend and Underworld were decent.
And the original games are some of my favourite games of all time which I replay regularly whereas the two new games are forgettable experiences that I will never play again nor will I get excited over another game of that style. Legend is much, much worse though. Now THAT is tbe epitome of the dumbing down of a franchise. People rag on the reboot being nothing like Tomb Raider, but Legend was even worse in that regard. They improved a lot with Anniversary, though it still unfortunately was super linear with automation being a big part of the core gameplay.

Ideally I'd get a modern Tomb Raider game where the developers don't treat the players like idiots and trust that their players can figure out game mechanics without feeling the need to hold their hand and automate everything. Ideally I'd get a modern Tomb Raider game that trusts the player to figure things out themselves. Ideally I'd get a Tomb Raider game where a puzzle isn't something extra that's included on top of the core gameplay. Ideally I'd get a Tomb Raider game where explorstion and puzzle solving IS the core gameplay. Action is what should be taking the back seat.

Developers think that gamers are dumb and have short attention spans. I say this isn't true and I say that if someone released a Tomb Raider game that was fairly open, had zero automation in its platforming mechanics, and designed a high quality game based around exploration, puzzle solv8ng and challenging platforming, that people would buy it and love it. Not everything has to be about the cinematic action experience. If they made a Tomb Raider game based around good gameplay mechanics focused on exploration puzzles and platforming then it would be popular.
 

RagnarokX

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Sep 16, 2006
22,546
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The first backstory of Lara's character sounds more interesting to me than 'OMG! SURVIVE BY MURDER LARA!' says the evil old man without a mustache to twirl that they have now. It's simple, and implies so much. But I guess nowadays game makers feel that people are too stupid to comprehend anything.
Core added to it as they went along. Her backstory always involved survival. She was a prim and proper rich girl until her plane crashed in the Himalayas. She was forced to survive until she was rescued and she gained a love for adventure. But they didn't have to show us that or make a game about it. When we first meet her in the first game she's already an experienced adventurer and they don't focus too much on the story and characters. They focused more on making a good game and the story and characters were just a framework. The CD games, especially the latest reboot, feel like they care more about the story and characters and the game is just there to hold the narrative together.


Gameplay has nothing to do with genre. Perspective doesn't either. I finally like Tomb Raider since 2013. Hated the originals...Legend and Underworld were decent.
Gameplay is what defines a genre. A puzzle game is a game with puzzle gameplay. A platformer is a game that focuses mainly on jumping.

The issue is that the old Tomb Raider games where challenging platformers that focused on mastering a set of skills where you explored large environments that you could get lost in, solved puzzles, and avoided deadly traps. The reboot, on the other hand, is an Uncharted style game where what can very loosely be called platforming requires almost no skill at all and is highly scripted. The environments are very signposted and linear, with scripted events occurring constantly to make it seem like things are happening when you're mostly just watching and executing minimalist prompted button presses. People kept posting pictures of the top of the radio tower like it was some kind of accomplishment, but the reboot doesn't make you earn that moment. When you got some place in the old games you know it was by your skill. I mean there's a reason why Saint Francis' Folly is so highly regarded:


Getting around this place was all on you to find where you could go and master the wide array of jumps at your disposal.


But this moment is like... I held a direction... and then I pressed a button for a QTE... and watched a cutscene...
 

Dalibor68

Banned
May 7, 2016
2,011
1
0
If they cut out all the collect-a-thon nonsense from Rise, then I'm all in.
What collectathon nonsense? The audio-logs are always very interesting and give backstory and the treasures are cool as well as interactive (and have also been in the UC series for example).
 

Markitron

Is currently staging a hunger strike outside Gearbox HQ while trying to hate them to death
Aug 24, 2010
12,116
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810
What collectathon nonsense? The audio-logs are always very interesting and give backstory and the treasures are cool as well as interactive (and have also been in the UC series for example).
Yea the audio logs were pretty good, but there's also the excessive resource gathering and MMO-style side-missions with 'collect/kill x objects', it adds up. How could you have possibly thought I was just referring to audio logs and treasures?

When I got to the second hub area in the valley I remember I just sighed. I wanted the plot to keep moving but knew I'd be spending hours and hours there.
 

family_guy

Member
Mar 17, 2013
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The base gameplay is the wrong goddamn genre. The fact you used the words Uncharted style says it all. I don't want Uncharted style. I want Tomb Raider style.
You'll have to admit that the series was in deep decline until it was rebooted. Even the stellar Anniversary remake and Legend didn't do as well as hoped. I think the most recent game was almost close to having the right balance between new and old gameplay. They just needed to scale a bit back from the crafting and add some more of the tombs which were actually good this time around.
 

Crispy

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Jun 7, 2004
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Getting around this place was all on you to find where you could go and master the wide array of jumps at your disposal.
Yes, that was great! But I feel we'll never get those kind of experiences anymore with today's focus on realistic or more elaborate graphics. The limitations of the graphics were a large part of what made this kind of gameplay possible.
 

Harlequin

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Dec 4, 2012
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Still so funny to me that people are like "Lara has no personality anymore"

Lara Croft never had a personality, she had big breasts which a lot of people seemed to confuse for a personality. There was literally nothing to her before, she would just spout witty quips as she went around killing everything and people got tired of it by the time Underworld came around which is why it flopped. The nostalgia vision is strong.
She had a whole lot of personality (when you consider TR1-6 as a unit at least) it's just that it wasn't shoved in your face the way it is in the current games. A lot of it was subtextual (and some of it was part of her bio which wasn't often referenced in-game). She was an introvert, a loner who was very emotionally closed-off and didn't let people get close to her (with the exception of select few friends). She was intelligent, didn't care for the ordinary or conventional or for moral, ethical or legal rules and made her own rules to live by. Generally speaking, being independent and in control were extremely important to her and she very much resented being made subject to anyone or anything or having anyone tell her what to do. She was a thrill-seeker, an adrenaline-junkie who was constantly on the lookout for a fix. Also, going back to her not really caring too much about morals or ethics, she was a very selfish person who didn't give too much thought to whether other people got hurt by her actions or not or what other people thought about her. She lived for herself, not for anyone else.

And most of that was kept consistent throughout the first six games (though there were a few slip-ups here and there).

Now Crystal's LAU trilogy, that's a completely different story. Literally. Lara in those games is a very different character to Core's Lara. They share a lot of superficial similarities, but once you dig a bit deeper, their personalities (and backgrounds) are definitely those of two different people.

Yes, that was great! But I feel we'll never get those kind of experiences anymore with today's focus on realistic or more elaborate graphics. The limitations of the graphics were a large part of what made this kind of gameplay possible.
I don't know, Mirror's Edge and Mirror's Edge: Catalyst have had platforming that's quite reminiscent of the first few Tomb Raider's and those are much more graphically advanced, so I definitely think it's possible even with today's graphics.

That's true. The game's entire draw point was the gameplay, which was essentially tank controls and poorly designed platforming(which was still novel at the time)
IMO the platforming in the classic TRs (and by classics I mean either TR1-5 or TR1-6, though AoD's platforming really wasn't that great so I'll stick to 1-5 for this post) was incredible. Anything Crystal has done in the platforming department since they took over the franchise has been a joke in comparison.
 

Akai__

Member
Jun 14, 2012
9,691
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0
Interesting leak and game title, so lets see how this will turns out. I had a blast playing through both games and I'm still playing ROTR thanks to the DLC, which is pretty enjoyable.

Ah yes the team that couldn't finish mankind divided
I wouldn't blame the devs, because we pretty much know what happened thanks to the Jimquisition episode about the whole Square Enix and Deus Ex situation.

But all you need to know is that the actual Mankind Divided was split into 2 parts and Square Enix forced them to make a lifeless Breach Mode, which of course has Microtransaction in it. Deus Ex Mankind Divided also needs to sell 3 Million copies (probably at full price) to break even, which they are struggling to achieve. Also... Relember the "Augment your Preorder" stuff? Guess who pulled that stuff?

Eidos has proven more than once that they are capable of creating good games, so I have 0 doubt that they could do it again, if a certain publisher just lets them do it, without pulling too much bullshit.
 

Dalibor68

Banned
May 7, 2016
2,011
1
0
Yea the audio logs were pretty good, but there's also the excessive resource gathering and MMO-style side-missions with 'collect/kill x objects', it adds up. How could you have possibly thought I was just referring to audio logs and treasures?

When I got to the second hub area in the valley I remember I just sighed. I wanted the plot to keep moving but knew I'd be spending hours and hours there.
We must have played different games then because I don't remember any long MMO sidemissions that kept going on for hours and hours.
 

CHC

Member
Aug 24, 2012
12,189
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Still so funny to me that people are like "Lara has no personality anymore"

Lara Croft never had a personality, she had big breasts which a lot of people seemed to confuse for a personality. There was literally nothing to her before, she would just spout witty quips as she went around killing everything and people got tired of it by the time Underworld came around which is why it flopped. The nostalgia vision is strong.
I mean, I'm not going to say that "old" Lara was some shining example of good game writing or anything, but at least she had actual traits.... she was very clearly presented as a roguish, badass, globetrotting treasure hunter. Not much more was needed to set up the action, and she was a fun, passably cool character through which the player could interact with the game and its challenges.

The new Lara.... honestly I can't even think of a single word that would sum up her character. Not a single actual character trait. Brave? Strong? Vulnerable? Seriously, there isn't anything I feel like I can say about her. Her behavior is all over the map and she's just a bland mish-mash of faux-emotional reactions and injured gasps.
 

Markitron

Is currently staging a hunger strike outside Gearbox HQ while trying to hate them to death
Aug 24, 2010
12,116
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810
We must have played different games then because I don't remember any long MMO sidemissions that kept going on for hours and hours.
I never said the side missions themselves were long. I said they were pointless fetch quests which, when combined with the excessive resource gathering and other collectibles, keep you in the same location for hours and hours.

It's strange that you are taking such issue with my posts about the games collect-a-thon nature when it is a very common criticism. I mean it's fair enough if it didn't bother you, but to deny it completely is a bit of a stretch.
 

FairFriend

Member
May 12, 2013
616
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She had a whole lot of personality (when you consider TR1-6 as a unit at least) it's just that it wasn't shoved in your face the way it is in the current games. A lot of it was subtextual (and some of it was part of her bio which wasn't often referenced in-game). She was an introvert, a loner who was very emotionally closed-off and didn't let people get close to her (with the exception of select few friends). She was intelligent, didn't care for the ordinary or conventional or for moral, ethical or legal rules and made her own rules to live by. Generally speaking, being independent and in control were extremely important to her and she very much resented being made subject to anyone or anything or having anyone tell her what to do. She was a thrill-seeker, an adrenaline-junkie who was constantly on the lookout for a fix. Also, going back to her not really caring too much about morals or ethics, she was a very selfish person who didn't give too much thought to whether other people got hurt by her actions or not or what other people thought about her. She lived for herself, not for anyone else.

And most of that was kept consistent throughout the first six games (though there were a few slip-ups here and there).
while this is generally true there were episodes which showed a warmer side to her personality, so to say. Like the one in the russian submarine in TRV, for instance. Overall she was a well rounded character, far easier to relate with than the Lara of TR2013 (haven't played Rise yet).

edit: I've noticed that many people are claiming in this thread that Lara had little personality in the original games. That's certainly true for I-III but starting with IV Core added many different touches and softened the hard edges. In Angel Of Darkness she was a fairly deep character and people who had played the other five games were deeply invested in the narrative of that game, as the still lively community around that specific installment demonstrates.
 

Markitron

Is currently staging a hunger strike outside Gearbox HQ while trying to hate them to death
Aug 24, 2010
12,116
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810
Wonder how long the exclusive window will be this time. /grumble
If I had to guess I'd say it's exclusivity will last from when the trailer is premiered at the Microsoft press conference, to the immediate aftermath of the conference when Square-Enix confirm it's also launching on PS4.

So about an hour or two, depending on if it's shown early or not.
 

Louis Cyphre

Banned
Jun 5, 2011
5,321
818
470
I don't know, Mirror's Edge and Mirror's Edge: Catalyst have had platforming that's quite reminiscent of the first few Tomb Raider's and those are much more graphically advanced, so I definitely think it's possible even with today's graphics.
Commercially the last game didn't sell very well did it? This is why the industry will continue down the path of sameness. The Uncharted franchise highlight the new era of gamers out there who want more action and less thinking.

If I had to guess I'd say it's exclusivity will last from when the trailer is premiered at the Microsoft press conference, to the immediate aftermath of the conference when Square-Enix confirm it's also launching on PS4.

So about an hour or two, depending on if it's shown early or not.
Spot on, there will be no timed exclusive deal but the fight will likely be over DLC.
 

sense

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Aug 4, 2012
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If I had to guess I'd say it's exclusivity will last from when the trailer is premiered at the Microsoft press conference, to the immediate aftermath of the conference when Square-Enix confirm it's also launching on PS4.

So about an hour or two, depending on if it's shown early or not.
I wouldn't put past the possibility of a similar deal like rotr or dead rising
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Feb 14, 2014
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Its weird... I thought you just said, in this very thread , that less animation priority and unrealistic animations makes the gameplay Satisfying?

Although its true that sometimes unrealistic animations led to more responsive controls/animation , something like in TLOU . the hand to hand combat is done using a trick , The snapping of the enemy at the point of contact, its unrealistic but gives you a better sense of responsive combat and control. let me find the video or i think its in grounded documentary ,making of last of us.
You can do quick and seamless animations without switching to a contextual camera that cuts away from the original view. In fact, you can do this in a shorter time leading to less animation priority, for instance, take a look at splinter cell:
 

Harlequin

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Dec 4, 2012
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Commercially the last game didn't sell very well did it? This is why the industry will continue down the path of sameness. The Uncharted franchise highlight the new era of gamers out there who want more action and less thinking.
These days, if a AAA game fails it can be as much a fault of the marketing as of the actual game so it's hard to tell if people are actually not interested in proper 3D platformers (that aren't cartoony or aimed at a "family audience") anymore just going off of Catalyst's performance. But yes, it's possible that this sort of gameplay will only be viable in mid-budget and smaller indie games in the future.
 

Elandyll

Banned
Oct 13, 2014
7,122
0
0
Arizona
Wonder how long the exclusive window will be this time. /grumble
Without Crystal Dynamics involved, and given the allegedly poor sales results of RotR due to said exclusivity, there is at least a chance that there won't be any, or much more limited than the 6-months-turned-to-a-year nonsense we saw previously.
 
Jul 7, 2014
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United Sates
I wouldn't put past the possibility of a similar deal like rotr or dead rising
If they want to kill the franchise or at best are satisfied with it being a b/c-tier IP from now then sure go ahead and double down on that mistake. It seems ROTR sold like shit on PS4 as expected. Even if the next game releases day one on PS4 I think some long term damage has already been done.
 

Harlequin

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Dec 4, 2012
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Mankind Divided also came out like 2 months ago. Do we have confirmation EM is a two team studio now?
I think they have two Deus Ex teams (one worked on Mankind Divided, the other on the next Deus Ex) but I don't know whether they've got more than that. Perhaps they've had a smaller team doing pre-production on the next Tomb Raider and the Mankind Divided team joined them after MD was shipped?
 

Dalibor68

Banned
May 7, 2016
2,011
1
0
I never said the side missions themselves were long. I said they were pointless fetch quests which, when combined with the excessive resource gathering and other collectibles, keep you in the same location for hours and hours.

It's strange that you are taking such issue with my posts about the games collect-a-thon nature when it is a very common criticism. I mean it's fair enough if it didn't bother you, but to deny it completely is a bit of a stretch.
Because what you say isn't really true. You're not kept in the same location for hours and hours to gather resources and collectibles. Not once did I go "Man, I gotta stay here and collect all those explorer satchels and maps!". And not once did I go "Man, I gotta stay here and collect all those ressources to upgrade every single item to the max!". The explorer satchels are pretty much pointless to begin with because they just give you resources and unless you have OCD and HAVE to collect every single outfit/weapon upgrade/whatever I don't see why that would be an issue. I never actively looked out for those Satchels or resources yet always had the outfit / weapons I wanted. It's similar with Witcher 3 - there are those monster nests etc but whether you complete them or not is completely irrelevant for the main game. Those "fetch quests" were also completely optional afaik and to me were usually quite entertaining.
 

Markitron

Is currently staging a hunger strike outside Gearbox HQ while trying to hate them to death
Aug 24, 2010
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Because what you say isn't really true. You're not kept in the same location for hours and hours to gather resources and collectibles. Not once did I go "Man, I gotta stay here and collect all those explorer satchels and maps!". And not once did I go "Man, I gotta stay here and collect all those ressources to upgrade every single item to the max!". The explorer satchels are pretty much pointless to begin with because they just give you resources and unless you have OCD and HAVE to collect every single outfit/weapon upgrade/whatever I don't see why that would be an issue. I never actively looked out for those Satchels or resources yet always had the outfit / weapons I wanted. It's similar with Witcher 3 - there are those monster nests etc but whether you complete them or not is completely irrelevant for the main game. Those "fetch quests" were also completely optional afaik and to me were usually quite entertaining.

Just because the game doesn't explicitly force you into doing those activities, doesn't mean they don't take a huge toll on the story and pacing. I did just enough to get the upgrades I wanted and still felt like the game had slowed way down. Having that amount of collectibles in a 3rd person action adventure is massively excessive, and it's pointless to compare it to the Witcher as that's an open-world RPG in which you are supposed to go off for random side activities.

Exploration used to be one of the most rewarding parts of the series (even LAU somewhat got that right), rather than OCD busywork to empty the map of icons.
It was like a Ubisoft game.
 

Mman235

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Jun 28, 2013
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You'll have to admit that the series was in deep decline until it was rebooted. Even the stellar Anniversary remake and Legend didn't do as well as hoped. I think the most recent game was almost close to having the right balance between new and old gameplay. They just needed to scale a bit back from the crafting and add some more of the tombs which were actually good this time around.
I keep seeing this stuff (so this isn't necessarily focused at this post specifically) about the failure of the previous Tomb Raider trilogy (for short, LAU), but I feel it's looked at from the wrong way. LAU aren't some forgotten masterpieces, they're relatively forgettable games with occasional flashes of greatness. Outside of Anniversary being the worse selling (when it deserves to be the best), they frankly did about as well as they should have.

The reboot games are Dark Souls compared to Legend; that game is among the most patronised I've ever felt playing a game, between the ruler linear level design (to the point you can post that FPS-based "level design then vs now" meme image completely unironically in Legend's case) and constant hints despite that. The occasional moments where it does give you some breathing room (which are coincidentally the best parts of the game) just make the rest of it stick out. Despite being very short it's also full of filler like the bike sequences and mindless combat areas. It also just kind of stops with a sequel hook right when it seems that the story is about to get started.

Anniversary is by far the closest Crystal came to nailing the original formula, but even then it's all over the place as a remake, and, for everything that's great, there's something that completely butchers something from the original game. The T-Rex is just the most obvious. The mechanics also start to buckle under the weight of Anniversary's far more difficult platforming, and it becomes clear they were never really made for a game more complex than Legend. It also falls apart at the end and Atlantis is pretty much cut down into nothing, which leaves a bad taste (not to mention many people got stalled by the tower climb part, although I've personally not had issues with it).

While it's more complex than Legend, Underworld goes back on a lot of the complexity added in Anniversary. The puzzles and designs are simpler overall, and it gives the illusion of scale with big areas, but rarely breaks the reality that it's just a bunch of big "set-piece" rooms separated by corridors, as opposed to Anniversary, that is generally more organic. The mechanics also revert more, to the point they're borderline dysfunctional at times, and the game as a whole is buggy as hell to the point it can become unfinishable if you get unlucky (although I think they patched the worst cases, to be fair). It also falls apart in the ending areas (notice a pattern yet?) and, bar one or two impressive areas, the vibrant environments of the earlier areas get replaced by constant grey and blue tunnels. While it does technically follow it and wrap the trilogy up, it also drops or retcons half the stuff Legend established, and basically goes in a completely different direction, making Legend's story a complete dead-end in retrospect.

All three have moments that hint at what they could have been, but that's not what they are, and frankly, they were never anything that special, even if they were generally competent. Their relatively muted reception isn't really a mystery.

Because what you say isn't really true. You're not kept in the same location for hours and hours to gather resources and collectibles. Not once did I go "Man, I gotta stay here and collect all those explorer satchels and maps!". And not once did I go "Man, I gotta stay here and collect all those ressources to upgrade every single item to the max!". The explorer satchels are pretty much pointless to begin with because they just give you resources and unless you have OCD and HAVE to collect every single outfit/weapon upgrade/whatever I don't see why that would be an issue. I never actively looked out for those Satchels or resources yet always had the outfit / weapons I wanted. It's similar with Witcher 3 - there are those monster nests etc but whether you complete them or not is completely irrelevant for the main game. Those "fetch quests" were also completely optional afaik and to me were usually quite entertaining.
Exploration used to be one of the most rewarding parts of the series (even LAU somewhat got that right), rather than OCD busywork to empty the map of icons.