-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Rumour: PSN+ premium service details
- Thread starter gofreak
- Start date
OldJadedGamer
Banned
YagizY said:
And what if all your buddies are on your team? The party chat is great cause you only hear your friends and it automutes everyone else. I love reading threads in MP games where some kid says he did great and was talking shit but on XBL the majority of people aren't going to hear you. I love the "friends only" voice setting for games. I hear the people I want to hear and it automutes everyone else.
makingmusic476
Member
Making cross game chat a premium-only feature makes it practically useless. How many people are going to pay for this service? Will only a tenth of my friends have cross game chat? Why would I have any inclination to pay for a feature that I could use with so few people?
Making cross game chat premium-only will not convince people to pay for the service. It'll just waste would could be an excellent additional feature and piss off the people that have been waiting for it all this time. I *really* hope Sony aren't that stupid.
Making cross game chat premium-only will not convince people to pay for the service. It'll just waste would could be an excellent additional feature and piss off the people that have been waiting for it all this time. I *really* hope Sony aren't that stupid.
I'm just thinking about that 1 hour trial thing of any PS Store game...
That feature is CRAZY.
If this service costs $60 and that was the single feature it will end up saving me cash. I'm not sure if Sony thought that feature through, developers must get something on that action (like $10 of every yearly subscription must be divided across a users downloaded 1 hour trial games). In my head this feature sounds more threatening to devs than the five-share DRM. For users though this is an incredible win if true.
That feature is CRAZY.
If this service costs $60 and that was the single feature it will end up saving me cash. I'm not sure if Sony thought that feature through, developers must get something on that action (like $10 of every yearly subscription must be divided across a users downloaded 1 hour trial games). In my head this feature sounds more threatening to devs than the five-share DRM. For users though this is an incredible win if true.
Man said:
Why? Darksiders was a retail game that had an hour demo. It's not that hard or "unrealistic". We aren't talking huge file sizes here. I would MUCH rather have that (Darksider-sized full retail demos for the premium subscribers) then hour PSN demos (where every PSN game should already have a demo for it like they do on Xbox, so I don't know why you as a gamer want to encourage gamers paying a "premium" price for such things).
BTW, did you just confirm a trophy patch for Siren? MEGATON!!!!
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Man said:
... given that this is about retail games, not psn games, what major first party ps3 games don't have a demo as-is?
red shoe paul
Banned
I talked with some Sony rep at Gamestop yesterday and I told him about the rumors and all he told me was "It'll be better than Xbox Live", which I expected him to say anyways. He didn't tell me features since he told me Sony hasn't told him anything yet. Then I blew his spot up by telling him about the Infamous/Little Big Planet PS3 bundle that's coming out/in the back room already and he was pretty impressed.
Adam Prime
hates soccer, is Mexican
Stumpokapow said:
meh there's a few. I wish 3D Dot Game Heroes had one, and a few other random titles. Often times it takes them a few weeks or a month AFTER the game has been released before they release a demo, like Uncharted 2.
Yeah if Sony could hook it up with NEW/Release Week demos for new games, that would be worth some cash to me, I think.
Silly.Mikey
Banned
Hey, its still kinda free! :lol
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Adam Prime said:
That's not first party and Sony can't compel Atlus/From/Silicon to make a demo or digital version.
Metalmurphy
Member
Massa said:
It's in the SDK. Can't get any easier then that...
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
DeadGzuz said:
Metalmurphy said:
Are you guys programmers?
Metalmurphy
Member
see5harp said:
80% of the current games on the market are shovelware. Some devs don't give a shit, that's the problem.
Stumpokapow said:
I am actually... But No, I don't have Sony's SDK if that's gonna be your next question.
red shoe paul
Banned
Majine said:
Yeah, boggled my mind. I'm sure he was not inclined to say though. Or he was maybe hiding something.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Metalmurphy said:
You don't seem like much of one if you think that "put it in the SDK" is a catchall solution.
It's like asking "why doesn't everyone use fur shaders on the Wii?"--it's not simply "developers a lazy", it's that developers are largely trained in using programmable shaders and the Wii architecturally does not. "Why doesn't everyone use the full SPUs?"--it takes time to learn how to write effective asymmetric code, and any support Sony has in terms of being able to fly engineers to teams, give presentations, beef up documentation (and write documentation in the appropriate languages so that non-English/non-JPN developers can appreciate it)
There are various levels of documentation and all enterprise code requires support from the library manufacturers you work with.
There are some things that are much easier than others to implement in a given SDK, and as a programmer you know that (as a programmer you also presumably know that calling other programmers "lazy" when the reality is that budgets and time and resource constraints impact product quality far more than abstract "drive"), so I don't know why you made the point you did.
Not only that, but you know that Sony offers all developers support and works with virtually all teams to help make things run. You already know that there's a difference between "supporting" something and supporting it.
Note that the question "Are you a programmer?" doesn't mean "Do you know the basics of how to program?", just like "Are you a psychologist?" doesn't mean "Have you taken Psych 101 at university?"
Really I don't care what's in the SDK...hell custom soundtracks and youtube support is in the SDK and the large majority of devs don't bother. A premium PSN option seems like it's probably a whole bunch of e-mailing codes, printing membership cards for extended warranties, and maybe some cross game chat. Call me a hater, but I just don't see Sony fixing actual online implementation or making any fixes retroactive for every game going back to launch.
Metalmurphy
Member
I didn't say that. I said it couldn't get easier. How exactly would Sony make easier then having it on the SDK?Stumpokapow said:
So fur shading are on Wii's SDK? oO You need the full use of SPUs to implement a simple invite system that's already on the SDK? You're not making any sense.Stumpokapow said:
SDK isn't just documentation. The actual code/libraries for the invite system are in the SDK. I don't get where you're getting at tbh.Stumpokapow said:
I didn't call them lazy, I said that some just don't give a shit and simply don't bother... There's a bit of a difference.Stumpokapow said:
Again... totally missing your point. How does this matter?Stumpokapow said:
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Your post really does suggest that you are not a programmer by trade because you seem to lack awareness of some of the most basic and critical issues that programmers who work with given development environments, libraries, and middlewares face.
Have it in the SDK, document it well, work with developers to implement it? Wasn't that my entire post?
Don't be a numbskull. I was providing examples of things that are technically "in the SDK" (or "in the API" or "provided as reference code to developers") but that still require work to implement. These are called comparisons.
Oh my god.
Take any library, any SDK, any middleware. Unreal, Torque, OpenGL, DirectX, Allegro, GDLib. Any of it.
There are functions implemented in each of these that are more difficult to use than others, or more difficult to use effectively than others. Documentation is provided by the makers of each of these to explain how to use functions. Some functions are better documented than others. Some libraries include extensive sample code, other libraries include very little sample code. Some manufacturers offer support contracts whereby by phone, email, or in person, their programmers work with your programmers.
Without access to Sony's SDK, you have no idea whether or not implementing the SDK invite system is a simple, trivial task for all games, some games, or no games. You have no idea if Sony will support developers in this task or not. You have no idea if beyond simply having the function in the SDK, it is well documented and supported by sample code. You have no idea what the PS3 development / test network environment is like.
Merely having a function in an SDK does not mean that Sony has done all it can to get developers to implement it.
Okay, well, then I'll literally say the exact same thing I said last time except this time I'll substitute your slightly different words. You should know the difference between programmers "not giving a shit" and programmers being limited by time, budget, and resources. As a programmer, you should not be so critical of others. I am sure that in your professional experience as a programmer, you have run into resource or time limitations or worked as part of a large team where not every element of the team has been able to deliver 100% as a result of these limitations.
Metalmurphy: What more can Sony do? They've got it in the SDK
Stump: They can work with developers
Metalmurphy: How does this matter?
hurrrr
I'll ask again--are you a programmer?
Metalmurphy said:
Have it in the SDK, document it well, work with developers to implement it? Wasn't that my entire post?
Don't be a numbskull. I was providing examples of things that are technically "in the SDK" (or "in the API" or "provided as reference code to developers") but that still require work to implement. These are called comparisons.
Oh my god.
Take any library, any SDK, any middleware. Unreal, Torque, OpenGL, DirectX, Allegro, GDLib. Any of it.
There are functions implemented in each of these that are more difficult to use than others, or more difficult to use effectively than others. Documentation is provided by the makers of each of these to explain how to use functions. Some functions are better documented than others. Some libraries include extensive sample code, other libraries include very little sample code. Some manufacturers offer support contracts whereby by phone, email, or in person, their programmers work with your programmers.
Without access to Sony's SDK, you have no idea whether or not implementing the SDK invite system is a simple, trivial task for all games, some games, or no games. You have no idea if Sony will support developers in this task or not. You have no idea if beyond simply having the function in the SDK, it is well documented and supported by sample code. You have no idea what the PS3 development / test network environment is like.
Merely having a function in an SDK does not mean that Sony has done all it can to get developers to implement it.
Okay, well, then I'll literally say the exact same thing I said last time except this time I'll substitute your slightly different words. You should know the difference between programmers "not giving a shit" and programmers being limited by time, budget, and resources. As a programmer, you should not be so critical of others. I am sure that in your professional experience as a programmer, you have run into resource or time limitations or worked as part of a large team where not every element of the team has been able to deliver 100% as a result of these limitations.
Metalmurphy: What more can Sony do? They've got it in the SDK
Stump: They can work with developers
Metalmurphy: How does this matter?
hurrrr
I'll ask again--are you a programmer?
Metalmurphy
Member
It is in the SDKStumpokapow said:
Can't awnser this, but it should be documented as well...Stumpokapow said:
:lol Why not have Sony do it themselves while ur at it. You really think Sony is gonna work with devs to implement something this simple?Stumpokapow said:
But you do? You claim it's hard to implement, despite common sense telling anyone that it shouldn't be. I mean, it's not exactly implementing MLAA using the SPUs we're talking about here...
Domcorleone
Member
Stumpokapow said:
but there aren't many hour long demos and most demos dont start you t the begining so I think it's worth it, some times demos don't properly showcase the game becUse the level they chose to show.
Metalmurphy said:
How many first party Sony games lack this functionality though? I think invites have been so useless for so long, that most PS3 gamers wouldn't even know that they could start a game this way. Sony probably doesn't feel like it's worth it at this point to try and enforce standards.
Metalmurphy
Member
Well, that falls in what I previously said, and that's where the real problem is. Some devs just don't bother/care.see5harp said:
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Metalmurphy said:
...
Sony works with developers on all sorts of issues ranging from the very simple to the very complicated. Every first-party does. Sony flies out programmers to developers on a regular basis. So does Epic. So does Microsoft.
Just this morning I spent a good while on the phone with enterprise support for an API that I use at my job. It's not "them doing it for me", it's part of how professional programming works.
So I'll ask for the fourth time--are you a programmer by trade? By this I mean do you spend a significant amount of your time programming, working in a team, with enterprise software, middleware, and APIs, on a professional product that is limited by a deadline and resource limitations? Your posts do not suggest any kind of professional understanding or empathy at all.
Your belief is that "common sense" tells us that the vast majority of programmers "don't give a shit", rather than believing that they are professionals who were hired because of their skills and qualifications
I have no idea if, in specific, the invite system is easy to implement for all, some, or no developers. I have no idea if Sony has documented it well, poorly, or not at all. I have no idea if Sony has provided a lot, a little, or no sample code. I have no idea if Sony does a lot, little, or no enterprise support for this functionality.
I do know that in absolutely every field of programming, the easier you make implementation and compliance, the more implemented and compliant users of your middleware become. I do know that compliance is low amongst PS3 developers. I do know that PS3 developers otherwise seem generally competent, just not in this area.
I also know that you were confused when I explained that being "in the SDK" is not a binary 1/0 thing and that there's a wide gradient of how well supported something is, and so I don't necessarily trust your professional instincts.
The Faceless Master
Member
there's one way to make it easier. make it a TRC.Metalmurphy said:
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
The Faceless Master said:
That doesn't make implementation easier, it just raises compliance at a resource cost to developers, but naturally you're right.
The Faceless Master
Member
but it does, by knowing it's required, they know for sure that it's going to be in up front and it's allocated resources since they want their game to come out.Stumpokapow said:
Metalmurphy
Member
Yeah... cause it's either that, or it's so freaking hard to implement it's not even worth it amirite?Chrange said:
*sheesh*...
Didn't claim otherwise.see5harp said:
MirageDwarf
Member
Stumpokapow, you know better with whom to argue.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
MirageDwarf said:
I don't know if it's a guilty pleasure or a bad habit for me, but I sometimes I can't help but indulge.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Karma said:
Even if it's in the OS, it still impacts game design and implementation; if it's persistent, developers have less RAM to work with and this requires recertification or examination of . If it's loaded just in time (IE it doesn't use RAM until the feature is actively accessed), developers need to handle the paging algorithm to safely store and restore the data.
(Note: this conundrum is a double-edged sword and has actually worked out very well for Sony because their initial delivery of the operating system was such a half-ass product that it used entirely too much RAM and thus developers have progressively gained more and more RAM as firmware updates have lowered the OS footprint)
The other thing is that even though a lot of gamers are day one-must buy new title types, retroactive compatibility is very important. We're more than half-way through this generation. It's very hard to implement new features at this point because a huge part of a player's library won't be compatible. This was true with trophies and it's even more true later on in the generation :/