RuPaul's Drag Race Season 6 |OT| Your Makeup Is Terrible

[And_Gignac]

Yes she did.
She called the writers at People(magazine) "faggots" in an angry tweet. Rupaul responded to that with the tweet you quoted, and then Amanda called her ugly.

Well according to my memory and e!, the "ur ugly" tweet came first and then Ru´s response. Ru Paul wasnt addressing the f bomb, or so it seems.

http://www.eonline.com/news/425341/...-as-rupaul-drag-race-host-gets-the-last-laugh

 

[royalan]

It's one thing for drag queens like RuPaul to argue that they have a right to the word "tranny". It's quite another to outright insult anyone who does object, and claim that they just need to "toughen up" or "stop playing the victim card" or aren't "really" part of the LGBT community.

Another, pretty good take is offered here by Heklina, the host of a long-running SF-based club/party called Trannyshack, who has recently announced plans to rebrand it starting in 2015:

That's not what Ru meant by that tweet. He was referring to people referring to "community" as a means to exclude others.

And I don't think Ru has insulted anyone. Keep in mind for much of the beginning of this controversy Ru didn't say anything. He's only begun speaking out now as the attacks have gotten more personal. He's been tough in this opinion on the matter, but he has a right to be. He has a right to the word, and it does seem like there's this new movement to rebrand the word "tranny" and to make it a new source of victimhood.

I think you bringing up Heklina kinda serves that point. Although she is capitulating to this controversy, even she's admitting that "Tranny" was not always such a charged word. It didn't represent the kind of pain that a lot of people are now trying to say it does, and it was a LOT more inclusive (back when, ironically, it was a LOT harder to be a trans person). Tranny does NOT only refer to people who feel that the bodies they were born into don't represent the gender they know that are. That was just a subset of a much larger, much more diverse "Trans Community."

Heklina is capitulating, but Ru isn't, and it's understandable. Because what's happening is you have a lot of people who aren't wise to the history, coming in and saying "this word now means THIS, and you aren't THIS, so you can't use this word because it offends us". They've imperialized an entire community and are trying to force it to mean one thing, and deny Ru the right to identify as something she's aligned herself with for decades now. I'm not surprised she's fighting it.

 

[FoneBone]

That's not what Ru meant by that tweet. He was referring to people referring to "community" as a means to exclude others.

And I don't think Ru has insulted anyone. Keep in mind for much of the beginning of this controversy Ru didn't say anything. He's only begun speaking out now as the attacks have gotten more personal. He's been tough in this opinion on the matter, but he has a right to be. He has a right to the word, and it does seem like there's this new movement to rebrand the word "tranny" and to make it a new source of victimhood.

I think you bringing up Heklina kinda serves that point. Although she is capitulating to this controversy, even she's admitting that "Tranny" was not always such a charged word. It didn't represent the kind of pain that a lot of people are now trying to say it does, and it was a LOT more inclusive (back when, ironically, it was a LOT harder to be a trans person). Tranny does NOT only refer to people who feel that they bodies they were born into don't represent the gender they know that are. That was just a subset of a much larger, much more diverse "Trans Community."

Heklina is capitulating, but Ru isn't, and it's understandable. Because what's happening is you have a lot of people who aren't wise to the history, coming in and saying "this word now means THIS, and you aren't THIS, so you can't use this word because it offends". They've imperialized an entire community and are trying to force it to mean one thing, and deny Ru the right to identify as something she's aligned herself with for decades now. I'm not surprised she's fighting it.

a. Here's the quote in point from the Maron podcast:

No, it is not the transsexual community. These are fringe people who are looking for story lines to strengthen their identity as victims. That is what we’re dealing with. It’s not the trans community, because most people who are trans have been through hell and high water and they know -- they've looked behind the curtain at Oz and went, 'Oh, this is all a f**king joke. But, some people haven't... You know, if your idea of happiness has to do with someone else changing what they say, what they do, you are in for a f**king hard-ass road.

so we get here that anyone who objects to the word tranny:
1. cannot, in any significant capacity, represent the transsexual community
2. are "fringe people" who
3. are looking for attention
4. have not been marginalized, and therefore are only making an issue of this to falsely claim victimhood

You're right, not insulting at all.

b. Heklina has insisted, repeatedly, that she is NOT capitulating; that she recognizes that the word is perceived differently (and more negatively) than it once was, and that she does not want to embrace that connotation.

 

[mantidor]

a. Here's the quote in point from the Maron podcast:

so we get here that anyone who objects to the word tranny:
1. cannot, in any significant capacity, represent the transsexual community
2. are "fringe people" who
3. are looking for attention
4. have not been marginalized, and therefore are only making an issue of this to falsely claim victimhood

You're right, not insulting at all.

b. Heklina has insisted, repeatedly, that she is NOT capitulating; that she recognizes that the word is perceived differently (and more negatively) than it once was, and that she does not want to embrace that connotation.

You are reading a narrative that simply isn't there.

 

[FoneBone]

To sum it up: there is room for good-faith disagreement over the word "tranny". To turn this into a narrative of RuPaul, Voice of Perfect Love And Tolerance vs. Hateful, Bitter Tumblr Social Justice Warriors is not that.

 

[royalan]

a. Here's the quote in point from the Maron podcast:

so we get here that anyone who objects to the word tranny:
1. cannot, in any significant capacity, represent the transsexual community
2. are "fringe people" who
3. are looking for attention
4. have not been marginalized, and therefore are only making an issue of this to falsely claim victimhood

You're right, not insulting at all.

b. Heklina has insisted, repeatedly, that she is NOT capitulating; that she recognizes that the word is perceived differently (and more negatively) than it once was, and that she does not want to embrace that connotation.

But that's exactly what capitulating is.

And the thing is, these people can't speak for the trans community. They don't represent the whole of it. And there are a lot of trans-people who either flat out agree with Ru, or don't see what the big deal is with a word that used to be a lot more positive at a time when it was undeniably more difficult to be a trans-person. This is a divisive issue for a reason. These people don't speak for the community; to be fair, neither does Ru. But for the most part, he's not trying to. He's mostly defending himself.

And the really problematic thing about this is a lot of people are trying to rob Ru of the right to even have an opinion on this, because he's not transgendered. But he IS transsomething.

 

[FoneBone]

But that's exactly what capitulating is.

No, maybe if she was threatened with a mass boycott you could argue that. Otherwise it's just recognizing that the context of language changes over time.

 

[FoneBone]

And there are a lot of trans-people who either flat out agree with Ru, or don't see what the big deal is with a word that used to be a lot more positive at a time when it was undeniably more difficult to be a trans-person. This is a divisive issue for a reason. These people don't speak for the community; to be fair, neither does Ru. But for the most part, he's not trying to. He's mostly defending himself.

I don't argue with any of this! I know full well that there are many transgender people who take no issue with the word and those who use it. But, again, it's one thing to argue for using it, and another to express naked contempt for those who do object and their identities.

 

[kirblar]

I don't argue with any of this! I know full well that there are many transgender people who take no issue with the word and those who use it. But, again, it's one thing to argue for using it, and another to express naked contempt for those who do object and their identities.

Their identity is not being shown contempt.

Suey Park was widely ridiculed. But it wasn't for being an Asian.

 

[FoneBone]

Their identity is not being shown contempt.

Suey Park was widely ridiculed. But it wasn't for being an Asian.

Saying that if they object, they must not have actually suffered is contempt for their voices and the legitimacy of their opinions.

 

[natsuyasumi]

The cisplaining level of this thread is crushingly high. Not worth my emotional energy.

Trans gaffer checking out.

 

[MisterGrey3000]

Well according to my memory and e!, the "ur ugly" tweet came first and then Ru´s response. Ru Paul wasnt addressing the f bomb, or so it seems.

http://www.eonline.com/news/425341/...-as-rupaul-drag-race-host-gets-the-last-laugh

According to Huffington Post Ru responded after Amanda tweeted "faggot" at People.

The cisplaining level of this thread is crushingly high. Not worth my emotional energy.

Trans gaffer checking out.

Why even come in to say this if it's not worth your time??

 

[royalan]

The cisplaining level of this thread is crushingly high. Not worth my emotional energy.

Trans gaffer checking out.

...then why did you bother checking in at all?

This brushing aside of anyone considered "cis" and snuffing out their right to have an opinion is kind of the problem here. Ru doesn't have to be transgendered to be considered "trans" and member of the trans community. Or, at the very least, THAT is the debate. And dismissive shit like "cisplaining" kind of misses that point entirely.

 

[FoneBone]

...then why did you bother checking in at all?

This brushing aside of anyone considered "cis" and snuffing out their right to have an opinion is kind of the problem here. Ru doesn't have to be transgendered to be considered "trans" and member of the trans community. Or, at the very least, THAT is the debate. And dismissive shit like "cisplaining" kind of misses that point entirely.

I don't think natsuyasumi's post was terribly helpful, but when you just devoted a mini-essay earlier to "dismissive shit" about how only a "small facet" of the trans community, consisting of "Tumblr Social Justice Warriors" objected to the word... it's easy to see why said poster would conclude that you and those cheerleading your post have no interest in good faith discussion.

 

[mantidor]

I don't argue with any of this! I know full well that there are many transgender people who take no issue with the word and those who use it. But, again, it's one thing to argue for using it, and another to express naked contempt for those who do object and their identities.

I didn't see it as contempt, I saw it as a wake up call, quoting her exact words again:

"If your idea of happiness has to do with someone else changing what they say, what they do, you are in for a fucking hard-ass road [..] If you’re upset by something I said, you have bigger problems than you think".

This is in no way telling people "you are mean and your complains are invalid", it is "if you are offended by a word by itself be prepared for a lot of suffering in your life", which I have to agree with. As RuPaul adds later "We are not doing anything to you. That’s how you interpreted it. And you have the freedom to do that. But we are coming from a place of love.”

My only experience has been with fag (or more exactly it's innumerable variations in spanish), and I remember being offended a lot by the word when my straight friends used it in a completely innocent way, and when they told me "you really can't act like this, because if you are offended by it from us, you are going to be in pain for the rest of your life by all the people that use it in actually offensive ways, and trust us, they are a majority", my pride didn't let me see their point very well and it wasn't until I had more gay friends that I got it. Intention behind words is much more important than the words themselves, and phrases like "Gay people are going to pollute our children's minds with their agenda" pisses me a lot more than my gay friend sending a text message with "get your faggy ass over here, we have been waiting for you over an hour!", even if the former uses the PC correct terms. I think if you let your head cool off you can see in which side RuPaul's speech falls.

edit: And I actually forgot what I came her to do and was to share this very interesting blog entry (it's from a transwoman, who doesn't even consider herself as such, in case we are dismissing anything said by cis people, just saying ): https://transhumanoid.wordpress.com/2014/04/25/rupaul-trannys-and-she-mails/

 

[Rayis]

I honestly never saw a problem with the word itself, especially since it originated from LGBT culture of yore, it's the attitude in which the word is used that is a problem, so imo, it's not problematic when people like Ru or just someone who is sympathetic to the cause of LGBT people uses it.

When it comes to issues with PC language and all, I tend to take the middle road, if I know someone personally who is hurt by a term I use I avoid it, when speaking to a crowd I would also opt for PC terms, with people who I trust is when I get my political incorrectness out.

 

[royalan]

I don't think natsuyasumi's post was terribly helpful, but when you just devoted a mini-essay earlier to "dismissive shit" about how only a "small facet" of the trans community, consisting of "Tumblr Social Justice Warriors" objected to the word... it's easy to see why said poster would conclude that you and those cheerleading your post have no interest in good faith discussion.

Well, maybe said poster should take into account the entire discussion as it has played out in this thread. My mini-essay certainly wasn't the first post on the subject, and "good-faith" discussion has been happening before and after that post.

I don't think everyone on the opposing side of this discussion are Tumblr Social Justice Warriors, but a lot of the people spearheading this thing and have been viciously attacking Ru this whole time are or, worse, demonstrating a lack of understanding of Ru's perspective.

 

[Father_Brain]

This brushing aside of anyone considered "cis" and snuffing out their right to have an opinion is kind of the problem here.

Speaking of rhetorically snuffing out people's right to an opinion: can someone point me to a single quote in which RuPaul acknowledges that there actually is a two-sided debate over the word "tranny," in which the other side might have some semblance of a claim that, if not necessarily correct from his perspective, at least deserves to be fairly judged and evaluated?

 

[royalan]

Speaking of rhetorically snuffing out people's right to an opinion: can someone point me to a single quote in which RuPaul acknowledges that there actually is a two-sided debate over the word "tranny," in which the other side might have some semblance of a claim that, if not necessarily correct from his perspective, at least deserves to be fairly judged and evaluated?

...huh?

No, Ru hasn't come out and explicitly stated this (to my knowledge), but why on earth would he need to at this point? The debate is happening. His defense of his own actions and the right to the word is his acknowledgement. That people in and out of the trans community have openly agreed with him confirms this a two-sided discussion.

 

[hateradio]

I understand both points, and have to say that Ru should acknowledge that it's not just the fringe saying these things, at the very least. I don't think there's any malice coming from him, but it sounds like his defense shouldn't be an offense.

...huh?

No, Ru hasn't come out and explicitly stated this (to my knowledge, but why on earth would he need to at this point? The debate is happening. His defense of his own actions and the right to the word is his acknowledgement. That people in and out of the trans community have openly agreed with him confirms this a two-sided discussion.

 

[Soulscribe]

I don't even know what "fringe" is

 

[mantidor]

I don't even know what "fringe" is

Marginal.

 

[Father_Brain]

...huh?

No, Ru hasn't come out and explicitly stated this (to my knowledge), but why on earth would he need to at this point? The debate is happening. His defense of his own actions and the right to the word is his acknowledgement. That people in and out of the trans community have openly agreed with him confirms this a two-sided discussion.

If someone shows nothing but contempt for the viewpoint of anyone who disagrees with him, it becomes increasingly difficult to argue that he's making a good-faith contribution to the debate,

I understand both points, and have to say that Ru should acknowledge that it's not just the fringe saying these things, at the very least. I don't think there's any malice coming from him, but it sounds like his defense shouldn't be an offense.

I agree with the first part; I think the latter depends on what you mean by "malice" in this scenario. Towards trans people in general? Sure, that's not happening. Towards anyone, trans or not, who advocates changing cultural and linguistic norms regarding trans people in a way that makes RuPaul uncomfortable? Well...

 

[Amalthea]

What really bothers me about this discussion as a whole is that it seems to stem from the 'Transgender are just confused gay men', 'Who cares about transgender anyway','LGBT-rights are almost there, no need to give a shit about the T now'-angle the queer community sometimes shows.

But yeah, who caaaresssss? *sarcastic tone*

 

[meltingparappa]

What really bothers me about this discussion as a whole is that it seems to stem from the 'Transgender are just confused gay men', 'Who cares about transgender anyway','LGBT-rights are almost there, no need to give a shit about the T now'-angle the queer community sometimes shows.

But yeah, who caaaresssss? *sarcastic tone*

Dan Savage sometimes talks at length about that, and how a certain portion of the community fails to see the double standard in treating them as icky second class people who shouldn't be part of the "LGB" group.

 

[natsuyasumi]

...then why did you bother checking in at all?

Because in my heart of hearts I hoped for better. I like to be surprised by people. Wasn't though.

This brushing aside of anyone considered "cis" and snuffing out their right to have an opinion is kind of the problem here. Ru doesn't have to be transgendered to be considered "trans" and member of the trans community. Or, at the very least, THAT is the debate. And dismissive shit like "cisplaining" kind of misses that point entirely.

Until you've lived the trials and hardships of being trans yourself you don't get to tell us the score about slurs people use to hurt us, trans women especially, because you simply do not understand. You don't, period. If you did you (meaning various people in this thread) wouldn't say half the shit you have in RuPaul's defense. If you can't accept that then 1) textbook example of a privileged voice overriding an oppressed party's voice and 2) I have nothing to add, because we're at loggerheads.

By the way, fuck your putting cis in scare quotes. Really shows where you're coming from.

 

[Matt_]

Until you've lived the trials and hardships of being trans yourself you don't get to tell us the score about slurs people use to hurt us, trans women especially, because you simply do not understand. You don't, period. If you did you (meaning various people in this thread) wouldn't say half the shit you have in RuPaul's defense. If you can't accept that then 1) textbook example of a privileged voice overriding an oppressed party's voice and 2) I have nothing to add, because we're at loggerheads.

By the way, fuck your putting cis in scare quotes. Really shows where you're coming from.

Do you honestly believe that RuPaul has never faced discrimination for doing what he does?

 

[Jugendstil]

Until you've lived the trials and hardships of being trans yourself you don't get to tell us the score about slurs people use to hurt us, trans women especially, because you simply do not understand. You don't, period. If you did you (meaning various people in this thread) wouldn't say half the shit you have in RuPaul's defense. If you can't accept that then 1) textbook example of a privileged voice overriding an oppressed party's voice and 2) I have nothing to add, because we're at loggerheads.

By the way, fuck your putting cis in scare quotes. Really shows where you're coming from.

*golf clap* The amount of patronizing bullshit towards trans people in this thread is gross. I don't personally identify as trans, but the tone of this discussion annoyed / frustrated me enough that I stopped checking in for a couple of days.

It is one thing to try and examine RuPaul's argument and where he's coming from (which is definitely complicated and warrants civil discussion) and the much larger debate this is all a part of, but I don't think anyone has the right to be flippant about other peoples feelings or experiences.

 

[mantidor]

It is one thing to try and examine RuPaul's argument and where he's coming from (which is definitely complicated and warrants civil discussion) and the much larger debate this is all a part of, but I don't think anyone has the right to be flippant about other peoples feelings or experiences.

Point out who has done that in this thread, please.

What really bothers me about this discussion as a whole is that it seems to stem from the 'Transgender are just confused gay men', 'Who cares about transgender anyway','LGBT-rights are almost there, no need to give a shit about the T now'-angle the queer community sometimes shows.

But yeah, who caaaresssss? *sarcastic tone*

I think outside in twitter, facebook etc people have said some nasty shit, but I don't think anyone has done that here. I share your sentiment and it is troubling, the conservative blogs are having a field trip with this.

 

[<+)O Robido O(+>]

Until you've lived the trials and hardships of being trans yourself you don't get to tell us the score about slurs people use to hurt us, trans women especially, because you simply do not understand.

Do we (gays) have to go through your exact trials to understand where you're coming from?

 

[FoneBone]

Do we (gays) have to go through your exact trials to understand where you're coming from?

I think us gay men owe it to trans women (and men too, though "tranny" is more specifically directed towards women) to actually listen to their perspectives and not attack them as a bunch of sheltered, overly sensitive whiners just because they're saying something we might not want to hear.

 

[kirblar]

I think us gay men owe it to trans women (and men too, though "tranny" is more specifically directed towards women) to actually listen to their perspectives and not just attack them as a bunch of sheltered, overly sensitive whiners.

Listening to their perspectives does not mean agreeing with their conclusions. You can respectfully listen and still come away from it respectfully disagreeing.

 

[FoneBone]

Listening to their perspectives does not mean agreeing with their conclusions. You can respectfully listen and still come away from it respectfully disagreeing.

I don't know how many times I have to repeat this:

"I understand why you dislike the word 'tranny', but I still feel I have a right to use it" = respectful disagreement
"If a trans woman asks/tells me not to use the word 'tranny', I'm the real victim, and she's a privileged whiner who hates RuPaul/the gay community" = not respectful

 

[FoneBone]

Point out who has done that in this thread, please.

Flippant: People who complain are just being "sensitive."

It's also surprising to hear Carmen [Carrera] speak up about this. I didn't think she was so sensitive.

Flippant: Words don't hurt! You're wasting your time objecting to this as long as there are bigger battles to fight.

Now I have a problem with this. The word doesn't cause gay, bi, trans etc... to get murdered. We been going through injustice for years before the damn word even existed. To put it bluntly, you're not fighting for equality and basic human rights by going after Rupaul and the show. That's for damn sure. Neither is Carmen Carrera. She is a tv personality who does it as part of a TV personality. LGBT people have serious problems and all this is just a reality show of its own.

Flippant: If you object, you're just playing the victim card! Stop thought policing.

The problem I see is that many who are getting offended by the word on Drag Race are coming from a place of victimhood. The thing with drag, as Ru said, is it mocks identity. It mocks not only physically socialized gender norms, but words as well. Words are clumsy, and it is absolutely key to understand the context of the word. Saying one word is universally bad and should never be used is coming from a very, very close-minded perspective, one that wholly identifies the word - a vocal symbol - as an uh oh. And if you go that far with words, like Ru said, you got a lot of uphill battles in your life. You're going to be playing word police by the vernacular other people say, and continuing to identify from a place of victimhood, you'll start getting upset at more and more things, stringing it to your position as a victim. You see this with people who end up feeling every other race is racist to them even if they really, empirically aren't, for example.

Flippant: This is just an hate crusade by whiny Tumblr Social Justice Warriors against St. RuPaul, the Universal Embodiment of Pure Love and Tolerance (who can't seem to imagine anyone disagreeing with him who isn't a whiny, sheltered troll who hasn't actually dealt with hardship. Most transgender people don't care!

For most of its existence as a term, "trans" has been an umbrella reference for pretty much anyone who blurred the traditional lines of gender and gender expression (you have transvestism, transexualism, transgenderism, etc.). It hasn't been until fairly recently (relatively speaking), and thanks to the efforts of Tumblr Social Justice Warriors, that one facet of the "trans" community has tried to take full ownership of that word, and pretty much any word that refers to gender duality, or fucking with the gender binary in any way.

There's an undeniable tone from the people who are spearheading the hate campaign against Ru that the transgendered community, specifically, is the only valid form of "trans" and that these terms now belong exclusively to them, and anyone who now uses the term is doing so as an intentional sign of offense to that specific community. They're removing the context, and the history, and turning it into a thing of hate and fear and shame, and smearing hate on anyone who implies that it could be something else, or who doesn't fit the new bill of who they now want the term to refer to. And, I'm sorry, but that's what it is at this point: a hate campaign. Argue her use of specific words all you want, but one thing that is undeniable is that Ru has only EVER put love out into the world. She cares about everybody and NO community is lesser to her; and it's frankly gross, some of the horrible things I've seen said about Ru from "professional" people who see themselves as "doing good" and coming from a place of righteousness.

Flippant: that "victim card" again. Anybody who does change their viewpoint re: tranny is just "capitulating" to the ACTIVIST AGENDA!

..it does seem like there's this new movement to rebrand the word "tranny" and to make it a new source of victimhood...

Heklina is capitulating, but Ru isn't, and it's understandable. Because what's happening is you have a lot of people who aren't wise to the history, coming in and saying "this word now means THIS, and you aren't THIS, so you can't use this word because it offends us". They've imperialized an entire community and are trying to force it to mean one thing, and deny Ru the right to identify as something she's aligned herself with for decades now. I'm not surprised she's fighting it.

Flippant: These people don't speak for the entire trans community. Therefore we should ignore them.

And the thing is, these people can't speak for the trans community. They don't represent the whole of it.

 

[royalan]

If someone shows nothing but contempt for the viewpoint of anyone who disagrees with him, it becomes increasingly difficult to argue that he's making a good-faith contribution to the debate,

I'll admit I could be wrong, but based on how this controversy has progressed, when Ru displays that contempt, I think he's referring to a specific handful of people (I know one of them is a writer for OUT.com that really led the initial attacks via social media). I don't think he's referring to the community at large. Before Ru said ANYTHING about this, there was a group of people basically demanding he apologize, and when he didn't all hell broke loose. I think he's loosely referring to them.

What really bothers me about this discussion as a whole is that it seems to stem from the 'Transgender are just confused gay men', 'Who cares about transgender anyway','LGBT-rights are almost there, no need to give a shit about the T now'-angle the queer community sometimes shows.

But yeah, who caaaresssss? *sarcastic tone*

I'm sorry, but I have to call you out on this. Who in this thread has said or implied that they even vaguely think this way? You're gonna have to quote the post, because you've gotten me completely lost on this one. And while it won't necessarily change my opinion, if you can point out a place where I specifically display contempt for the trans community, then I'll certainly apologize for that. Because that doesn't represent how I feel, at all. But I don't think I've said anything that implies that, so I would kindly ask you to not put words in my mouth.

By the way, fuck your putting cis in scare quotes. Really shows where you're coming from.

Oh, that's fresh. Let me make one thing absolutely clear to you:

You. Don't. Know. An. Inkling. Of. A. Shit. About. Me.

You don't know where I come from. You don't know what I've gone through. You don't know what I identify as. You don't know my past, present, or future struggle. You know nothing. In the context of this discussion, you are the one who's assuming, which tells me a hell of a lot about where you're coming from. So cool it.


I'm just going to reiterate what my only point has been here: cis or trans (or genderqueer or in-between); regardless of what you feel (or what I feel); whether or not you agree or disagree with Ru's usage of a word (or words), or whatever side of this debate you fall on, it's important that we all at least understand the debate that's happening. Learn the history. Understand why Ru uses the word. Understand why Ru is so staunchly defending himself here. Understand why Ru identifies with the trans community. If you do that, and STILL disagree with Ru on this, that's fine, but at least then you'll be having the right conversation. Because when you just take a look at Ru and say, "Oh, you're cis," you are missing the point entirely.

And at the very least, remember that when all is said and done, Ru is a part of a generation (arguably THE generation) of queer performers, activists, personalities and artists that have made it possible for us--ALL of us--to be who we are and have it better than they had it. At the very least, give him that respect.

EDIT: FoneBone, you have to do a bit more than quote a ton of posts out of context and without explanation.

Double EDIT: Thank you.

Flippant: This is just an hate crusade by whiny Tumblr Social Justice Warriors against St. RuPaul, the Universal Embodiment of Pure Love and Tolerance (who can't seem to imagine anyone disagreeing with him who isn't a whiny, sheltered troll who hasn't actually dealt with hardship. Most transgender people don't care!

For the last time, please read and understand everything I said in that post leading up to that point. I wasn't referring to the entire community. I wasn't even referring to everyone who disagrees with Ru. I was mostly referring to the people Ru was referring to. Specific people. Namely, this person, a writer for The Advocate website:

And the people who are just parroting what this person has said, without demonstrating their own knowledge of the subject.

Flippant: that "victim card" again. Anybody who does change their viewpoint re: tranny is just "capitulating" to the ACTIVIST AGENDA!

So, Heklina is everyone now?

Flippant: These people don't speak for the entire trans community. Therefore we should ignore them.

The bolded is what YOU have read into my words. That is not what I said, or what I implied.

 

[FoneBone]

I'll admit I could be wrong, but based on how this controversy has progressed, when Ru displays that contempt, I think he's referring to a specific handful of people (I know one of them is a writer for OUT.com that really led the initial attacks via social media). I don't think he's referring to the community at large. Before Ru said ANYTHING about this, there was a group of people basically demanding he apologize, and when he didn't all hell broke loose. I think he's loosely referring to them.]

I don't see anything Ru's said indicating that he's only criticizing a handful of people. His rhetoric seems to pretty bluntly lump anyone complaining about the word "tranny" into the same group.

I'm sorry, but I have to call you out on this. Who in this thread has said or implied that they even vaguely think this way? You're gonna have to quote the post, because you've gotten me completely lost on this one. And while it won't necessarily change my opinion, if you can point out a place where I specifically display contempt for the trans community, then I'll certainly apologize for that. Because that doesn't represent how I feel, at all. But I don't think I've said anything that implies that, so I would kindly ask you to not put words in my mouth.

I don't think you or RuPaul hate trans people or are deliberately pissing them off. But as I've said before, you and Ru's tone towards critics of the word "tranny" (TUMBLR SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIORS) is (IMO) unambiguously contemptuous towards dissenting voices.

I'm just going to reiterate what my only point has been here: cis or trans (or genderqueer or in-between); regardless of what you feel (or what I feel); whether or not you agree or disagree with Ru's usage of a word (or words), or whatever side of this debate you fall on, it's important that we all at least understand the debate that's happening. Learn the history. Understand why Ru uses the word. Understand why Ru is so staunchly defending himself here. Understand why Ru identifies with the trans community. If you do that, and STILL disagree with Ru on this, that's fine, but at least then you'll be having the right conversation. Because when you just take a look at Ru and say, "Oh, you're cis," you are missing the point entirely.

As I said before, this is not a black-and-white issue. "Tranny" is unique in that it seems to have originated amongst gay men, and only later been adopted as a slur towards trans women. And I don't question that RuPaul sincerely believes he has a claim to the words.

But you're asking folks like natsuyasumi to understand the other side, and refusing to do the same for her. That you can't comprehend how Heklina's decision is anything other than "capitulation" to shrill activists is very, very telling.

 

[mantidor]

odds definitions of flippant

You need to grab a dictionary.

And yes, that is flippant from me

You are again reading a narrative that doesn't exist, when you argue stuff like "I can see where Ru is coming from, this is why" in no way or form is that dismissing anyone's words or feelings. It seems that just merely having an opinion opposite of what you are thinking is enough reason to actually dismiss such opinion.

Ru was dead spot-on when she said that this was a lose lose situation, and how it would escalate and escalate.

 

[FoneBone]

Bianca Del Rio: "And let’s face it, we wouldn’t know who the fuck Carmen Carrera was if she didn’t fuckin’ get on Drag Race. Maybe she should take what’s left of her dick and stick it in her mouth and shut the fuck up."

 

[Father_Brain]

When Amanda Byrnes used faggot :

https://twitter.com/RuPaul/status/341282173703290880

To bring this up again - yes/no question.

Does RuPaul's response here to Amanda Bynes attacking reporters as "faggots" reflect a general conviction on his part that the use of "faggot" as a slur is objectionable?

If no, well, that's very strange given his wording ("derogatory slur") and that he went out of his way to call out Bynes for using the word, but we can agree to disagree there.

If yes, isn't he asking that the broader society change its use of language in a way that makes him more comfortable? Isn't that exactly what he so vociferously is urging trans people not to do?

 

[FoneBone]

You need to grab a dictionary

"Dismissive" would probably be a better choice of words but I stand by my assessment.

Ru was dead spot-on when she said that this was a lose lose situation, and how it would escalate and escalate.

Escalate? Gosh, wherever could this be going?

 

[mantidor]

Bianca Del Rio: "And let&#8217;s face it, we wouldn&#8217;t know who the fuck Carmen Carrera was if she didn&#8217;t fuckin&#8217; get on Drag Race. Maybe she should take what&#8217;s left of her dick and stick it in her mouth and shut the fuck up."

I saw it before. Even the audience rose up in arms. But this is Bianca, and this is her act, if you don't leave offended she is slacking.

To bring this up again - yes/no question.

Does RuPaul's response here to Amanda Bynes attacking reporters as "faggots" reflect a general conviction on his part that the use of "faggot" as a slur is objectionable?

If no, well, that's very strange given his wording ("derogatory slur") and that he went out of his way to call out Bynes for using the word, but we can agree to disagree there.

If yes, isn't he asking that the broader society change its use of language in a way that makes him more comfortable? Isn't that exactly what he so vociferously is urging trans people not to do?

Let's quote Mrs Charles again

"It's not the word, is the intention of the word".

When you use a slur in the way Bynes did, Ru is saying it comes from self loathing, this is clearly out of the intention she was having.

The intention behind "you got shemail" is different, very different.

"Dismissive" would probably be a better choice of words but I stand by my assessment.


Escalate? Gosh, wherever could this be going?

endless arguing!

But seriously the last thing we need as a community is fracturing when we have achieved what we have achieved, I also used to fell in the trap that trans issues had nothing to do with me, but that is simply not true. As has been mentioned pretty much elsewhere outside the US the LGBT is covered under one umbrella, also gay men and women are by far more gender non-conformist than straight people, and trans guys and girls are considerably more engaged in homosexual relationships than the average of cisgendered people. We have way more in common than we might want to admit.

 

[Father_Brain]

The thing with drag, as Ru said, is it mocks identity. It mocks not only physically socialized gender norms, but words as well.

Setting aside the rest of your post for the moment, I think this kind of essentialism - "it is Drag, therefore it is __________" - is a huge part of why I have so much trouble sympathizing with RuPaul and his more vehement defenders.

To me, drag is just an art form, like TV, music, cinema, literature, theater, and so forth. And we evaluate, praise, and criticize other art forms all the time, based on how they represent, challenge, reinforce, subvert, or satirize society's norms and hierarchies: race, gender, sexuality, nationality, religion, socioeconomic status, etc.

Drag, of course, can still be inherently subversive, transgressive, provocative, insightful, and more. And it can also be a big joke that no one should take seriously. But in 2014, in a world where drag is vastly more mainstream than it ever was before, none of those things are characteristics inherent to the form (if perhaps they once were, which is another question entirely), any more than they are for the other art forms I named. It neither needs nor deserves to be held to a different standard of criticism than other mediums.

Let's quote Mrs Charles again

"It's not the word, is the intention of the word".

When you use a slur in the way Bynes did, Ru is saying it comes from self loathing, this is clearly out of the intention she was having.

The intention behind "you got shemail" is different, very different.

The WTF segment was about the word "tranny" in general, not the You've Got She-Mail segment. If Ru has articulated a clear stand against "tranny" being used as a slur, you'd have more of a point, but I'm not aware of any such comments.

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

Holy shit TS Madison just bitch-slapped a much needed dose of goddamn reality into this whole situation.

There are much more serious issues we need to face together as a united community instead of tearing each other apart internally with tantrums over politically-correct semantics.

 

[FoneBone]

Holy shit TS Madison just bitch-slapped a much needed dose of goddamn reality into this whole situation.

There are much more serious issues we need to face together as a united community instead of tearing each other apart internally with tantrums over politically-correct semantics.

*yawn*

Anyone who agrees with you gets the reality of the the situation. Anyone who disagrees is "politically correct" and "throwing a tantrum".

Same old, same old.

 

[mantidor]

The WTF segment was about the word "tranny" in general, not the You've Got She-Mail segment. If Ru has articulated a clear stand against "tranny" being used as a slur, you'd have more of a point, but I'm not aware of any such comments.

Oh this is for sure, the podcast didn't cover all that because the main beef of it was about identity and mocking it while covering RuPaul's career. The question was very direct and towards the last few minutes: "Do you have a problem with the word?" the answer: "not at all, I love it, because I've earned it".

Again, usage and intention is what matters, Rupaul calls herself a nigger faggot tranny and I don't think anyone has the moral authority to tell her she can't do that, she's talking about herself.

If we ever hear someone slurring against a transwoman with the word "tranny" in a public medium with actual mean intention, then we might see what RuPaul has to say, my guess is that he will send whoever does that to hell.

 

[MisterGrey3000]

What really bothers me about this discussion as a whole is that it seems to stem from the 'Transgender are just confused gay men', 'Who cares about transgender anyway','LGBT-rights are almost there, no need to give a shit about the T now'-angle the queer community sometimes shows.

But yeah, who caaaresssss? *sarcastic tone*

.......What???
Who in the thread even implied anything like this??

Bianca Del Rio: "And let&#8217;s face it, we wouldn&#8217;t know who the fuck Carmen Carrera was if she didn&#8217;t fuckin&#8217; get on Drag Race. Maybe she should take what&#8217;s left of her dick and stick it in her mouth and shut the fuck up."

What's the point of posting this?
Bianca's an insult comic, she'd probably make fun of my blackness and queerness if she could make a bunch of good jokes about it.
:/

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

*yawn*

Anyone who agrees with you gets the reality of the the situation. Anyone who disagrees is "politically correct" and "throwing a tantrum".

Same old, same old.

Well...I mean I can't help that my stance has been the same on this from the get-go.

At best, this is a negligible non-issue that's being forcefully blown-up into a problem that's way bigger than it really should be. At worst, it's A) dividing the community B) Validating the harmful potency bigots intended these words to have by us treating them exactly how they dictated and intended to use them.

 

[Father_Brain]

Oh this is for sure, the podcast didn't cover all that because the main beef of it was about identity and mocking it while covering RuPaul's career. The question was very direct and towards the last few minutes: "Do you have a problem with the word?" the answer: "not at all, I love it, because I've earned it".

Again, usage and intention is what matters, Rupaul calls herself a nigger faggot tranny and I don't think anyone has the moral authority to tell her she can't do that, she's talking about herself.

If we ever hear someone slurring against a transwoman with the word "tranny" in a public medium with actual mean intention, then we might see what RuPaul has to say, my guess is that he will send whoever does that to hell.

When I said I'm not aware of RuPaul saying anything to that effect, I wasn't just referring to the WTF segment.

My sense is that Ru believes that the word "tranny" is simply not a slur, as he acknowledges "nigger" and "faggot" to be, and that any use of it as a "derogatory slur" is a tiny minority of its usage that trans people should just grow a thicker skin about and stop complaining. But if he's ever said anything to the contrary, sure, I'd reconsider that.

At best, this is a negligible non-issue that's being forcefully blown-up into a problem that's way bigger than it really should be. At worst, it's A) dividing the community B) Validating the harmful potency bigots intended these words to have by us treating them exactly how they dictated and intended to use them.

So why shouldn't we reclaim and celebrate the word "faggot," then?

 

[chronos4590]

I don't even know what "fringe" is

only gif of this moment i could find :/
edit: clip http://www.anyclip.com/movies/to-wong-foo-thanks-for-everything-julie-newmar/vintage-clothing/#!quotes/

 

[MisterGrey3000]

When I said I'm not aware of RuPaul saying anything to that effect, I wasn't just referring to the WTF segment.

My sense is that Ru believes that the word "tranny" is simply not a slur, as he acknowledges "nigger" and "faggot" to be, and that any use of it as a "derogatory slur" is a tiny minority of its usage that trans people should just grow a thicker skin about and stop complaining. But if he's ever said anything to the contrary, sure, I'd reconsider that.

How'd you come to this conclusion?
Ru clearly knows that "tranny" is a slur.
I don't think she would call herself a "tranny nigger faggot", if she didn't.