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S-E news: New Agni's Philosophy in June 2013, (very) small VXIII and LR:XIII update

Famassu

Member
No, I'm pretty sure it's been mismanaged. I could understand if they had iterated through a number of different design concepts, as was the case with Resident Evil 4. But so far as I know it's been the same original concept all the way through,
Except... it hasn't been the same concept. Or well, the story etc. has been the same, but they've made huge design changes into the game that have required more work to be done on the game.

and they still don't have anything substantial to show for it.
They showed a long-ass trailer which showed a plethora of different environments & situations, exploration as well as some more cinematic moments, a working combat system with control over several different kinds of characters. tons of story exposition, had voice-acting and even at such an incomplete state it looked better than most console games (let alone big RPGs). That's plenty substantial to me. Some games have been shown less even up to their releases than what that one trailer showed of Versus XIII

Which is almost always the result of mismanagement, and a team that can't effectively execute on their design goals.
Except the thing is, Nomura has said for a long time now how he has been ready to show what they've achieved but someone has tied his hands on the matter. I'm pretty sure the reason why Versus hasn't been shown is the simple fact that Square Enix made a decision a few years back to only hype the games that are next in line for release while the rest need to stay out of the spotlight (this new policy was made after and BECAUSE of the early FFXIII announcements, which they noticed got gamers angry after they had nothing too substantial to show within a couple of years after the announcements). Of course the problem with this is that they've already announced Versus XIII so people want to hear more about it, but they've still stuck to that principle and have hyped games in order of their releases (XIV 2.0, Hitman and Tomb Raider are the three next big ones and those have been getting a lot of attention within the last six months)

Nor is there anything in the released information to suggest the game is hugely ambitious beyond what a competent, well-managed development team could deliver in 2-3 years.
I assume you'd say you think Naughty Dog is competent, right? Well, they take about 2 years between Uncharted games (and haven't they already been working for 3 years on Last of Us?). Those are sub-10 hour experiences. Final Fantasy Versus XIII is a much bigger & longer game and I'd say that's the quality they are going for (so basically Uncharted except bigger & with more freedom) with Versus XIII, so a 4 year development time isn't that incomprehensible. Really, they are trying to make a huge-ass JRPG that doesn't have too much to shy away in front of those technically impressive, but much smaller, more straightforward games. If the beginning of the game is anything to go by, it seems like they are making the game with a set of mind of "if we come up with it, we'll put it in the game if it's fun" instead of "hmmm.. our budget can't handle this, let's cut plans A, B, C, D, E, F & G out".

Everything they've revealed about the game explains why it's taken so long, when you consider the high standards & scope they are aiming for.
 

MagiusNecros

Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
They will announce Agni's Philosophy as a new game.

Starring Lightning.

I wouldn't put it past them to not attempt this tomfoolery. I will NEVER like Lightning as a character no matter what they do. Not even if she dresses up as GILGAMESH.
 

Verano

Reads Ace as Lace. May God have mercy on their soul
I wouldn't put it past them to not attempt this tomfoolery. I will NEVER like Lightning as a character no matter what they do. Not even if she dresses up as GILGAMESH.

me neither. SE needs to stop beating around lighting's bush and create a good rpg WITHOUT Lighting for once.
 

Shinta

Banned
Edit: I think the Agni survey and the recent forays into intense focus testing speaks more to SE not having a flipping clue where to take the franchise than any form of intent

So predictable. FFXIII had zero focus testing, and all the critics freaked out about it. How could they finish it before seeing if anyone likes it? Now they do the opposite, and you guys predictably do a 180 just so you can complain about them doing exactly what you criticized them for not doing.
And one hd town.

Go play The Last Remnant. It has over half a dozen HD towns.
 

Perfo

Thirteen flew over the cuckoo's nest
Aren't you Toriyama's biggest fan?

So they say... or they said, before I became the western-hater!
Toriyama's biggest merit is to look beyond the series to enrich his games, and also to actually develop and then release his games. He is not the best man ever though, his games have limits of course. Lightning Returns sounds very promising btw.
 

Lady Bird

Matsuno's Goebbels
So they say... or they said, before I became the western-hater!
Toriyama's biggest merit is to look beyond the series to enrich his games, and also to actually develop and then release his games. He is not the best man ever though, his games have limits of course. Lightning Returns sounds very promising btw.
No one in the recent Final Fantasy teams has done more to enrich the series with new philosophies as the FFXII team has done. Both its former director, Matsuno, and Ito that followed him, have created a Final Fantasy game that has scrapped the entire battle system and rebult it from zero from the same "idea" (the reliance on an ATB turn bar, that was also pioneered by Ito for FF4), a revolutionary AI-driven method for combat, higher reliance on exploration and sidequests that further develop the main combat system instead of new mechanics for mini-games, etc.

What has Toriyama done? Took his FFX's model, which was basically a traditional FF with the exploration scrapped from it, and scrapped the mini-games, scrapped the towns, and whatever else you can think of, then took Calm Lands, and made it bigger and with FFXII's hunting quests? FFXIII's battle system is what, an attempt to mesh FFX-2's with FFXII's, with a timid encounter system that was afraid of following on FFXII's no-loading-times footsteps? And the story is derivative of Digital Devil Saga, with a bit of FFXII's influence, dressed in typical (and far more exaggerated) final fantasy teen melodrama.

What has FFXIII-2 brought to the series? More FFXII's hunting? A FFXII-like town? More side-exploration like FFXII has done first, but instead of being in a big, seamless RPG world, it worked instead like Super Mario platform levels, each with a theme and unconnected with everything else? It works in Platform games, because they are platform games. But in full-fledged RPGs that rely on narrative and world immersion?

Maybe we can finally see what Toriyama can bring with LR:FFXIII from the outside to enrich the franchise. Maybe the battle system and the structure will be a success, who knows, but knowing Toriyama's products, I'm curious to see how derivative it might potentially be from of Versus XIII, whatever that might mean for a product that isn't out yet, or from anything else. I can't see the time-feature to work, because Toriyama's "original" game-breaking (literally) ideas almost always revolve around scrapping or restricting content and world immersion, which is something you should never do in a narrative product for a medium, the video game, that is possibly the best medium currently to make us feel inside a fictional world. The man is willing to be "original" at the cost of many things he is usually not aware of.

I think the best thing Toriyama contributed was his idea that battle systems should be fast and fun, and for FFX-2 specifically, that the game should be full of fun mini-games as a non-linear gaming alternative to FFXII's massive exploration filled with optional bosses. Heh, even FFX-2 had optional "bosses" from the very beginning due to the Oversoul system.
 

dramatis

Member
I think the best thing Toriyama contributed was his idea that battle systems should be fast and fun, and for FFX-2 specifically, that the game should be full of fun mini-games as a non-linear gaming alternative to FFXII's massive exploration filled with optional bosses. Heh, even FFX-2 had optional "bosses" from the very beginning due to the Oversoul system.

Assuming it was his idea in the first place. Toriyama came from 'event planning' background, which means his design experience is story-oriented. I'm pretty sure none of the good game design ideas in 10-2, 13, or 13-2 came from him.
 

Pooya

Member
FF13 battle system is a direct rip off of Panzer Dragoon Saga except not as good because you can actually move in PDS. There is nothing innovative about FF13 battle system, they just expanded it to 3 characters and with poorly designed encounters. I guess nobody played PDS though.

FF13-2 was a product of developers being caught by surprise from the backlash of the original, having no clue what they did wrong (as they thought they can do no wrong at the time) they looked to outside for ideas and made a game mixed up from several ideas. I actually think they looked at the games that were released around time XIII was released and were highly regarded and took ideas from them.
You can't deny Mass Effect(2) influence on the game. They said themselves they were inspired by RDR at E3 (in what way exactly I have no idea). Numerous QTEs, God of War 3 much lol.

and top of that they used some focus groups, western and else. I'm not sure what focus group approved those characters and story though and pretty much everything else in the game. The game was just many things thrown together without any sense of coherency or direction. They wanted to catch up wit modern games, I don't think they succeeded though.

Now with LR, their idea sounds decent enough maybe too little and late to the party though, without seeing it first, it's impossible to say anything as they over state things very often if their 13-2 interviews are anything to go by. I just don't trust this team that seems like have no clear vision anymore and looks like is under heavy pressure from inside and outside to produce anything amazing at this point, and FF right now doesn't need anymore average games, it's not going to help their decline. They need an outstanding game that impresses at first look and that's very hard to pull even for better studios out there.
 
They said themselves they were inspired by RDR at E3 (in what way exactly I have no idea)..

They made one of those trailers in the style of the ones R* do, except it was nowhere as good and felt really silly. That's the only connection to RDR I can think of :/
 

Shinta

Banned
No one in the recent Final Fantasy teams has done more to enrich the series with new philosophies as the FFXII team has done. Both its former director, Matsuno, and Ito that followed him, have created a Final Fantasy game that has scrapped the entire battle system and rebult it from zero from the same "idea" (the reliance on an ATB turn bar, that was also pioneered by Ito for FF4), a revolutionary AI-driven method for combat, higher reliance on exploration and sidequests that further develop the main combat system instead of new mechanics for mini-games, etc.

What has Toriyama done? Took his FFX's model, which was basically a traditional FF with the exploration scrapped from it, and scrapped the mini-games, scrapped the towns, and whatever else you can think of, then took Calm Lands, and made it bigger and with FFXII's hunting quests? FFXIII's battle system is what, an attempt to mesh FFX-2's with FFXII's, with a timid encounter system that was afraid of following on FFXII's no-loading-times footsteps? And the story is derivative of Digital Devil Saga, with a bit of FFXII's influence, dressed in typical (and far more exaggerated) final fantasy teen melodrama.

What has FFXIII-2 brought to the series? More FFXII's hunting? A FFXII-like town? More side-exploration like FFXII has done first, but instead of being in a big, seamless RPG world, it worked instead like Super Mario platform levels, each with a theme and unconnected with everything else? It works in Platform games, because they are platform games. But in full-fledged RPGs that rely on narrative and world immersion?

Maybe we can finally see what Toriyama can bring with LR:FFXIII from the outside to enrich the franchise. Maybe the battle system and the structure will be a success, who knows, but knowing Toriyama's products, I'm curious to see how derivative it might potentially be from of Versus XIII, whatever that might mean for a product that isn't out yet, or from anything else. I can't see the time-feature to work, because Toriyama's "original" game-breaking (literally) ideas almost always revolve around scrapping or restricting content and world immersion, which is something you should never do in a narrative product for a medium, the video game, that is possibly the best medium currently to make us feel inside a fictional world. The man is willing to be "original" at the cost of many things he is usually not aware of.

I think the best thing Toriyama contributed was his idea that battle systems should be fast and fun, and for FFX-2 specifically, that the game should be full of fun mini-games as a non-linear gaming alternative to FFXII's massive exploration filled with optional bosses. Heh, even FFX-2 had optional "bosses" from the very beginning due to the Oversoul system.

FFXII is really FFXI without the online. You're giving them too much credit. Their main task was figuring out how to automate most of XI since you were limited to single player. They imported the same world and design as FFT and Vagrant Story, and added automation. It's a lovely combination, but it's not even in the same ballpark as XI in terms of furthering the series.

XIII tried to do much the same thing with their battle system. It's obvious that they tried to give it more of a sense of urgency and player control than FFXII though, which could be programmed and left alone to play itself. Their solution was the required rapid input of paradigm shifting. The gambits are all automated and built into the jobs. You upgrade them to more efficient gambits with Libra on various enemies, but that's it. XII and XIII are mostly the same in terms of things they bring to the series' battle systems.

I-X were mostly the same battle system, with the job system (FFIII), ATB (FFVI) and character swapping (FFX) being the highlights.

XI was radically different. Each job is more fully developed than at any other point in the series, and the battle system has more depth and player interaction than ever before. And I can assure you, FFXI's monster hunts put XII's to shame.

XII and XIII were experiments with bringing XI to single player games. One favored depth, and the other favored speed and interactivity (both approaches are fully there in XI, which is still far deeper than both XII and XIII's battle systems).

LR and Versus seem like the next big evolution after XI.
 

Lady Bird

Matsuno's Goebbels
FFXII is really FFXI without the online. You're giving them too much credit. Their main task was figuring out how to automate most of XI since you were limited to single player. They imported the same world and design as FFT and Vagrant Story, and added automation. It's a lovely combination, but it's not even in the same ballpark as XI in terms of furthering the series.

XIII tried to do much the same thing with their battle system. It's obvious that they tried to give it more of a sense of urgency and player control than FFXII though, which could be programmed and left alone to play itself. Their solution was the required rapid input of paradigm shifting. The gambits are all automated and built into the jobs. You upgrade them to more efficient gambits with Libra on various enemies, but that's it. XII and XIII are mostly the same in terms of things they bring to the series' battle systems.

I-X were mostly the same battle system, with the job system (FFIII), ATB (FFVI) and character swapping (FFX) being the highlights.

XI was radically different. Each job is more fully developed than at any other point in the series, and the battle system has more depth and player interaction than ever before. And I can assure you, FFXI's monster hunts put XII's to shame.

XII and XIII were experiments with bringing XI to single player games. One favored depth, and the other favored speed and interactivity (both approaches are fully there in XI, which is still far deeper than both XII and XIII's battle systems).

LR and Versus seem like the next big evolution after XI.
FFXII is like FFXI which is like a MMO. What is bold, innovation-wise, is the attempt to make an "offline MMORPG", a single-player game that would have some of the charm of a MMO. That, and the idea of the gambits too. At the same time, FFT (or better yet, Tactics Ogre) and Vagrant Story were already very unique by themselves, and it's perfectly normal that their creators wanted to expand that style into a main FF.

So my point remains true. The FFXII's creators have brought a lot of new ideas from the outside into the franchise. It doesn't matters if some of those ideas already existed in MMOs, or in other games from the creators, but how they have completely refreshed the (offline) FF model.

FFXIII's big ambition was the attempt to make the battle system more active, intense and flashy. Kinda like FFX-2 with Advent Children visuals, and then the FFXII-style reliance on AI came after. Everything else is a step back to what FFXII brought. The encounter system was crap because the linear map design didn't allow for anything better or deeper. The character growth and weapon systems were extremely weak and poorly-developed, almost never exciting. The "loot system" was terrible due to that. The game was almost devoid of fun, addicting side-quests or side-battles until Pulse. There was no sense of pace, no means to break the rhythm, no place to rest and enjoy the world, and little interaction to make us feel inside that world. In that sense, it was a massive step back to the entire RPG genre, with nothing in return, and for the ironic sake of "better storytelling". And that's basically FFXIII's "innovation" outside of its battle system. Cutting content indiscrimately for the sake of cutscenes. Cutting content that would have allow to enhance storytelling, for the sake of storytelling. Cutting content that would refresh the gameplay experience through its 40-hour period, for the sake of storytelling. Cutting, cutting and cutting while being completely oblivious to its negative consequences. In that sense, FFXIII attempt at innovating the series failed completely, and even the devs completely scrapped it for the sequels.
 

Shinta

Banned
FFXII is like FFXI which is like a MMO. What is bold, innovation-wise, is the attempt to make an "offline MMORPG", a single-player game that would have some of the charm of a MMO.

FFXII is like FFXI, the previous game in the series that directly precedes it. The major innovation in it is tied to the fact that it's lesser than XI, it's not fully online and cooperative. The battle system is far too rich and deep in XI to condense into a single player, offline game. Gambits really do an admirable job, but it still falls flat in every way compared to XI. It's not as deep, and it completely sacrificed all elements of player-based skill, and reflex that were part of XI. Just the duties of one of the core jobs in XI is more detailed than all of XII; playing just an endgame healer, or tank, or bard. It's not really a huge achievement to flaunt and brag about. The battle system isn't as good as XI.

That, and the idea of the gambits too. At the same time, FFT (or better yet, Tactics Ogre) and Vagrant Story were already very unique by themselves, and it's perfectly normal that their creators wanted to expand that style into a main FF.

The story of XII was set in the same world as FFT and Vagrant Story. I like Ivalice, but again, it's literally the only FF game without a new setting. I'm fine with it being a setting from other games, but I don't go around saying it's something new when it's the third Ivalice game. You're spinning this part so hard that it's really the opposite of what you say. Every other FF game has an original setting but FFXII, and the direct sequels.

So my point remains true. The FFXII's creators have brought a lot of new ideas from the outside into the franchise. It doesn't matters if some of those ideas already existed in MMOs, or in other games from the creators, but how they have completely refreshed the (offline) FF model.

Your point remains false. It's game world is borrowed from two previous titles, and the battle system is a pale imitation of the game directly preceding it. Gambits are certainly new, but the game can only be talked about in this way by people who completely skipped FFXI.

FFXIII's big ambition was the attempt to make the battle system more active, intense and flashy. Kinda like FFX-2 with Advent Children visuals, and then the FFXII-style reliance on AI came after.

I don't know what you mean about the reliance on AI coming after. In XI, XII and XIII, you really can only control one character. This is because the actions of a single character grew to be a lot more complex. In XI, other people controlled it. In XII, you programmed them to do simple actions. In XIII, they have the gambits built into the job and you switch them out with the paradigms. They're all pretty similar in that regard. XIII has programmable paradigm decks that are really quite similar to gambits, and are a core part of the whole battle system.

Everything else is a step back to what FFXII brought. The encounter system was crap because the linear map design didn't allow for anything better or deeper.

I don't know what this means. The encounter system is the same as FFXII, only they added sneaking items. You see enemies on the screen, and run into them to fight. This was expanded a bit further in XIII-2 with the attack to start battles, and the mog clock. They're all fairly similar to Chrono Trigger. Nothing about the encounter systems in either game is really very different.

The character growth and weapon systems were extremely weak and poorly-developed, almost never exciting.

The character growth is basically automated, like FFI-VI. XII's character growth is more open, but sacrifices job classes and individual character differences. Neither one is objectively superior, and both are far inferior to the character growth in FFXI.

One thing about the character growth in XIII is superior to all the other FF games though except XI. Levels periodically capped at certain parts of the game. This allowed them to actually balance difficulty in key boss fights so they couldn't just be cheesed to death by a level 99 party. This feature was sorely missing from XIII-2, and is the most important part of making a balanced battle system that works as intended.

The "loot system" was terrible due to that.

The loot systems in XII and XIII were both weird in my opinion. Both had a lot of excess items that you used in crafting.

The game was almost devoid of fun, addicting side-quests or side-battles until Pulse.

Yeah, they were trying to focus on the story of fugitives on the run who didn't stop at random INNs or help get cats out of trees for strangers. The game wasn't devoid of fun though, as I and many others enjoyed it a great deal.

There was no sense of pace, no means to break the rhythm, no place to rest and enjoy the world, and little interaction to make us feel inside that world.

Pacing is a rhythm. It's ironic to say there's no sense of pacing in XIII, as it's the most linear, and therefore, the most tightly paced of all the FF games. A sandbox has no pace or urgency in the story, because you can simply stop at any time and do something else.

No place to rest was kind of a key part of the story. They didn't rest, because they were fugitives on the run. They didn't enjoy the world. It was a hostile world and they ran from it. That was the whole point of the story. The game starts with them literally being purged from the world.

In that sense, it was a massive step back to the entire RPG genre, with nothing in return, and for the ironic sake of "better storytelling". And that's basically FFXIII's "innovation" outside of its battle system.

This isn't new information. They set out to focus on a more character driven, narrative FF this time. It's certainly more character driven, and the cast in XIII blows away the forgettable cast of XII. The story of XIII, I find far more interesting than the political snooze fest in XII. The world is really only 2nd to Vana'diel (FFXI) in depth in the mythology and layering of the world design. I'd say Ivalice is 3rd. All the others don't really compare.

Cutting content indiscrimately for the sake of cutscenes. Cutting content that would have allow to enhance storytelling, for the sake of storytelling. Cutting content that would refresh the gameplay experience through its 40-hour period, for the sake of storytelling. Cutting, cutting and cutting while being completely oblivious to its negative consequences.

It's not indiscriminately cut. In the same way that they have heavily streamlined battle systems, XIII tried to streamline the genre to get rid of filler content. They didn't have INNs anymore, or MP, or stores. They wanted to just get down to the business of the story, and the battles, which is the essence of the genre. They purposely tried to make it more accessible to casual players, in much the same way that Mass Effect 2 and Skyrim did, by streamlining battles and equipment selection.

In that sense, FFXIII attempt at innovating the series failed completely, and even the devs completely scrapped it for the sequels.

Now you're just mad, and not being fair at all. XIII was the opposite of "scrapped." The main complaint I hear from everyone is that they won't let it go and they keep making games in the series. XIII-2's battle system and world are really almost exactly the same as XIII's. They just altered the level design, and gave the NPCs more dialogue.

And what of FFXII? Did the devs scrap it when they made Revenant Wings? Did they scrap it when they outsourced another XII sequel to GRIN with Fortress? What are you talking about? They always scrap it and try something new, nearly every time. One of the only major exceptions to that is FFXIII-2, which is more similar to XIII than X-2 is to X. It's literally almost exactly the opposite of what you claim here.
 

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
I hope they turn around Lightning Returns quickly next year, hate and mediocrity aside I've already spent way too many hours with this world and story that I feel obliged to see it through :-/
 

Pie and Beans

Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
wouldnt be surprised, FFX borrowed pretty damn heavily from Grandia 2

Clearly it didnt borrow nearly anywhere near enough (Fun Fact: Grandia battle is often more about use of 3D space than just that timeline bar, something all FFs have failed to really take onboard). No jRPG turn based battle system is better than it, it should have been the de facto standard rather than people continually trying to reinvent the perfected circular wheel in obtuse and lumpy bumpy ways.
 
If they changed the serialization to "Agni's Philosophy" I think that would be interesting but that would never happen. Final Fantasy Just isn't doing it for me right now because everytime I think FF I think this one might actually be my last as the rate they produce them.
 

jimmypython

Member
Best part of XIII-2 was GILGAMESH. Best lines in the game and made more sense then the entire plot.

Come at me.

Yeah, but too bad this content is a DLC, which is my biggest problem about XIII-2 beside Toriyama. It is a shame that they directly tease DLC in the casino, not to mention the costume option and the colosseum are useless without paying more.

FF13-2 is a more complete FF experience with all the DLC added in.
 

LuuKyK

Member
I wouldn't mind beating around her bush.

I wonder if her carpet match the drapes...

tumblr_mczq4qXGYE1r0db83.png


tumblr_mcvmy8gWku1ri24ulo1_250.gif
 

jimmypython

Member
For some reason I feel LRFFXIII will be like Assassin's Creed mixed with a battle system showed in the 2006 concept trailer for FFXIII.
 

Dark Schala

Eloquent Princess
what in the world are you people doing in here @______@

For some reason I feel LRFFXIII will be like Assassin's Creed mixed with a battle system showed in the 2006 concept trailer for FFXIII.
AC with good combat? I'll get two.

tbh, if I can climb on buildings with good architecture, that's fine with me. It's a little weird, but I get a lot out of that aspect in the AC games.
 

Exentryk

Member
I liked the "very, very ambitious" part about Versus. Sucks that LR will be stealing some of those new techs though >_>

Also, a new trailer for Agni (fire) on PS4? Yes, please. Add more characters like Vayu (wind), Jal (water) and Dharti (earth) and make it an epic trailer.
 

VertPin

Member
Huge fan of XIII, hated XIII-2. Honestly don't want anything branded under XIII or the cast of that series. Give me A realm Reborn and XV, please.
 

Perfo

Thirteen flew over the cuckoo's nest
Why do you hate western games and western music so much? Give things a chance! :(

Your dislike of western composition makes me cry. How could you dislike these?

/OT Of course there are exceptions, I was just being generic for the purpose of provoke. If I hated every western game, I wouldn't consider Half Life 2 one of the best games ever after all. But I simply can't forget the japanese output in the last three decades, for me, games are mostly japanese and once in a while from our shores. The problem with the current generation is that basically I just have one offer, the western one, so it's almost forced on me and is getting tiring.

This is some pretty cool artwork for me. But then I like Lightning anyway, so maybe the cancer's already reached my brain.

I agree that sketch is really, really cool.
 

Whompa

Member
This is some pretty cool artwork for me. But then I like Lightning anyway, so maybe the cancer's already reached my brain.

Nah, it's not cancer, you just have a good appreciation for art.

I'm not a huge fan of Lightning myself, but I can appreciate good artwork under most conditions.
 
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