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Game Dev Hardware Platform Scorn dev talks about Xbox Series X console exclusivity, says CPU is more important than SSD for next gen

Kazekage1981

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Well the PS5 Zen 2 CPU is not occupied by I/O. The XsX, 1/10th of the Zen 2 Core is, but it is slightly faster. So in the end its the same performance? 💆‍♂️🤷‍♂️
 
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Soulsdark

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Im excited to see both consoles in action. Both have a lot more power to play with. Good times for gamers everywhere!

I feel so jaded about this, because I am so unimpressed with realistic graphics nowadays.
Especially since it tends to restrict the gameplay so much.
It's like I don't care how close your game looks to real life, how does it run and can we please get some gameplay that is actually fun and not '' cinematic ''.
30 fps is just unacceptable nowadays tbh, and even 60 fps is very meh and just borderline acceptable. But no one is even talking about that.
DMC5 was actually fun to play even tho that game looks amazing and realistic, and on top of that too the character designs all looked distinct and not just like google copy pasted t-shirts and jeans or historical armor.
It's not impossible but every time I see people get super ultra excited deluxe hyped about another Exclusive and big AAA game it just looks like the same games. It's like I can't tell the difference anymore, on a visual level their actual character designs are so incredibly forgetable and unimaginative. That's not worth all the graphics in the world to me.
Even if I didn't love the characters in DMC I'd still remember their character designs, would anyone remember Joel or mr Samurai dude in Ghosts of something?
Even Sekiro is more memorable and looks more distinct, and I didn't like his design at all.

Everything I've seen so far that people are getting so hyped about have just been snore fests to me, I watched the Ghost of something whatever gameplay trailer and I felt like I was about to fall asleep. It just looked boring.
I am not saying that it will be boring, but holy crap they focus so much on bragging about how many hair strands and pores in the face they can render it's like people forget that these are games and not movies or CG trailers.
Maybe it's going to be impressive initially but then the visuals will just become the new norm and you're stuck with a sluggish game that sacrificed the gameplay on an altar to the graphics gods.
If I gave a damn about how many strands of hair a horse has on it's balls I'd buy a horse irl and count them.

I remember being impressed by the visuals of Halo 3 once, but I think that was the first time and mainly because I didn't own a good PC and it was the first game I got on the Xbox. After that I don't think I've ever been impressed by graphical fidelity anymore, I am far more impressed by distinct and imaginative art styles like in games as FFXIV or Granblue, or heck even Nier Automata even tho it's a very bleak design.
You still remember it and it's very distinct, is Ghost of something and games like TLOU really distinct and exciting design wise? Even God of war honestly looks dull to me albeit less so. Like they're so incredibly restrained by the strive for realism that they forget what fun is. God of war looks like they copied from Marvel with a lot of the designs like all I can think of is that they got people in the movie industry to design for them.

All that power, but all it's basically going to be used for is prettier pictures.
Scratch that, higher fidelity pictures. Not the same thing.
 
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Texas Pride

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Hopefully all questions will be answered by July. Or in July, I guess



Totally off topic but growing up in California, Jack in the Box was our main Go-To (outside of In-N-Out). Something about those Jack tacos...


I'm convinced they put crack in the tacos. In all reality they shouldn't be that good. Been like 2 years since I had any.
 

jakinov

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Plus he’s right, I’ll take a faster CPU for better performance over one SSD’s slightly faster loading times over another SSD.
You're over simplifying the benefit of very fast SSD. Gaming involves getting results in "real-time". If a developer can rely on some arbitrary asset going from 0 to 100 (0 being secondary/persistent storage; 100 being CPU/GPU) before the user notices that gives them the ability to do more creative/immersive things beside making sure you have a stable 60fps.

Whether or not a game benefits from having more computer resources or better bandwidth depends on what the specific game is trying to do. Not all aames need (or will need) quick access to secondary storage assets. There are also scenarios where you can get better performance because of a fast SSD. You can't get extra power because of a fast SSD but the SSD can lead to better throughput/goodput for certain workloads by widening a bottleneck. More specifically if your workload involves a lot of data going from 0 to 100 then you may get better performance. The reason is that the GPU/CPU can't process any data they it doesn't have which leads to CPU/GPU idling. It's why it's often called raw/theortical performance. You can't actually always use it all.

An analogy would be if you had two grocers and you measured how many items they could stick in a bag in a minute. If your store required that customers put items on a conveyor belt before you could start bagging, The grocer with the slower conveyor even if he was faster could end up bagging less groceries than the slower bagger with a faster conveyor belt. But if the grocery store that they both work at where you don't need to rely on things going on a conveyor belt and the things you need to bag are already there in front of your face most of the time (circling back to games, you just process data already in RAM), you are more likely able to fully bag as fast as you can and more consistently (without waiting for more items to come).

Again, the impact/importance will vary by the game.
 

PacificNW

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Jun 13, 2019
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I feel so jaded about this, because I am so unimpressed with realistic graphics nowadays.
Especially since it tends to restrict the gameplay so much.
It's like I don't care how close your game looks to real life, how does it run and can we please get some gameplay that is actually fun and not '' cinematic ''.
30 fps is just unacceptable nowadays tbh, and even 60 fps is very meh and just borderline acceptable. But no one is even talking about that.
DMC5 was actually fun to play even tho that game looks amazing and realistic, and on top of that too the character designs all looked distinct and not just like google copy pasted t-shirts and jeans or historical armor.
It's not impossible but every time I see people get super ultra excited deluxe hyped about another Exclusive and big AAA game it just looks like the same games. It's like I can't tell the difference anymore, on a visual level their actual character designs are so incredibly forgetable and unimaginative. That's not worth all the graphics in the world to me.
Even if I didn't love the characters in DMC I'd still remember their character designs, would anyone remember Joel or mr Samurai dude in Ghosts of something?
Even Sekiro is more memorable and looks more distinct, and I didn't like his design at all.

Everything I've seen so far that people are getting so hyped about have just been snore fests to me, I watched the Ghost of something whatever gameplay trailer and I felt like I was about to fall asleep. It just looked boring.
I am not saying that it will be boring, but holy crap they focus so much on bragging about how many hair strands and pores in the face they can render it's like people forget that these are games and not movies or CG trailers.
Maybe it's going to be impressive initially but then the visuals will just become the new norm and you're stuck with a sluggish game that sacrificed the gameplay on an altar to the graphics gods.
If I gave a damn about how many strands of hair a horse has on it's balls I'd buy a horse irl and count them.

I remember being impressed by the visuals of Halo 3 once, but I think that was the first time and mainly because I didn't own a good PC and it was the first game I got on the Xbox. After that I don't think I've ever been impressed by graphical fidelity anymore, I am far more impressed by distinct and imaginative art styles like in games as FFXIV or Granblue, or heck even Nier Automata even tho it's a very bleak design.
You still remember it and it's very distinct, is Ghost of something and games like TLOU really distinct and exciting design wise? Even God of war honestly looks dull to me albeit less so. Like they're so incredibly restrained by the strive for realism that they forget what fun is. God of war looks like they copied from Marvel with a lot of the designs like all I can think of is that they got people in the movie industry to design for them.

All that power, but all it's basically going to be used for is prettier pictures.
Scratch that, higher fidelity pictures. Not the same thing.
What games have impressed you? What art styles have you loved in recent games?

You are right that a lot go for realism. It can get boring real quick.

At the same time if devs take a chance with art styles, they get end up getting burned by gamers. I thought Bleeding Edges art style was awesome, but a lot of people really didn't like it.

Being a developer is tough nowadays.
 

Kazekage1981

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Apr 7, 2019
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I feel so jaded about this, because I am so unimpressed with realistic graphics nowadays.
Especially since it tends to restrict the gameplay so much.
It's like I don't care how close your game looks to real life, how does it run and can we please get some gameplay that is actually fun and not '' cinematic ''.
30 fps is just unacceptable nowadays tbh, and even 60 fps is very meh and just borderline acceptable. But no one is even talking about that.
DMC5 was actually fun to play even tho that game looks amazing and realistic, and on top of that too the character designs all looked distinct and not just like google copy pasted t-shirts and jeans or historical armor.
It's not impossible but every time I see people get super ultra excited deluxe hyped about another Exclusive and big AAA game it just looks like the same games. It's like I can't tell the difference anymore, on a visual level their actual character designs are so incredibly forgetable and unimaginative. That's not worth all the graphics in the world to me.
Even if I didn't love the characters in DMC I'd still remember their character designs, would anyone remember Joel or mr Samurai dude in Ghosts of something?
Even Sekiro is more memorable and looks more distinct, and I didn't like his design at all.

Everything I've seen so far that people are getting so hyped about have just been snore fests to me, I watched the Ghost of something whatever gameplay trailer and I felt like I was about to fall asleep. It just looked boring.
I am not saying that it will be boring, but holy crap they focus so much on bragging about how many hair strands and pores in the face they can render it's like people forget that these are games and not movies or CG trailers.
Maybe it's going to be impressive initially but then the visuals will just become the new norm and you're stuck with a sluggish game that sacrificed the gameplay on an altar to the graphics gods.
If I gave a damn about how many strands of hair a horse has on it's balls I'd buy a horse irl and count them.

I remember being impressed by the visuals of Halo 3 once, but I think that was the first time and mainly because I didn't own a good PC and it was the first game I got on the Xbox. After that I don't think I've ever been impressed by graphical fidelity anymore, I am far more impressed by distinct and imaginative art styles like in games as FFXIV or Granblue, or heck even Nier Automata even tho it's a very bleak design.
You still remember it and it's very distinct, is Ghost of something and games like TLOU really distinct and exciting design wise? Even God of war honestly looks dull to me albeit less so. Like they're so incredibly restrained by the strive for realism that they forget what fun is. God of war looks like they copied from Marvel with a lot of the designs like all I can think of is that they got people in the movie industry to design for them.
I want bayonetta 2 and 3 to be on XsX and PS5 so bad, she feels so silky smooth when she fights, does poses, activates witch time and the satisfaction of killing an angel after a combo. The story doesn't make any sense but fuck that game is fun to me.
 
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One Big Room, Full Of Bad Bitches
Not sure if these are all the same quotes or something new


Dev quote -

On XsX version

"It was about bringing it in line with the PC version", says game director Ljubomir Peklar when I ask what the thinking was behind releasing Scorn for the new Xbox. "We don't want to make any compromises and Series X certainly enables us to do just that."

I ask what, specifically, Series X offers the team that current-gen consoles couldn't: "It's mostly evolutionary improvements that are going to make the biggest difference. The most important one is elimination of the CPU bottleneck that exists in the current-gen consoles and much faster loading of assets thanks to the SSD. It's all about responsiveness and not having to wait on things."
On Unreal Engine

Scorn is being built in Unreal Engine 4, and appears to be an exercise in pushing those tools as far as they'll go - Peklar doesn't say it outright, but Ebb appears to be aiming for high resolution and framerates as much as it is shiny (or should that be slimy?) new looks: "If developers decided to opt for lower resolutions and 30fps they could get more spectacular results, like in the new Unreal 5 showcase few days ago. What you have to remember is that responsiveness and motion clarity are also part of the overall presentation, so you would still be losing detail in a sense."
On Exclusivity

What remains less clear is whether Series X is the only console platform on which Scorn will arrive. When I ask if this is a Series X exclusive, or if it could hit PS5 sometime after launch, Peklar says he can't discuss that information. We still don't know if the game will come to Steam and Windows Store simultaneously with Xbox Series X, either.
 
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Bernkastel

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You're a zealot who cares too much not only about your plastic but what others think of your plastic. I don't give a shit what you had to say because if you could help yourself you would. To be fair you're not the only one on this site like that but you are one of the worst I've seen on the Xbox side. The free marketing you do for MS should be compensated because imo you put in way too much work to simply call it a hobby. If that offends you reflect on the behavior that earned you the rep you have.
You call me a zealot, but here you are complaining about people speaking about Xbox in a Xbox thread(in case that was not obvious to you). You want people to speak about your piece of plastic even in a thread about another piece of plastic. Do I often bump PlayStation threads and derail the conversation ? No I dont.
I realise I come out as unlikeable to some for not acknowledging there narrative, but when you(an example) derail a thread about Xbox Series X expansion card saying "PS5 has better solution because the expansion card is proprietary", I realise I have to be aggressive myself. If you use the Jason and Crytek card to say "devs think PS5 is better", I will use the second post in this thread.
If you instead wanted to listen about how Sony's SSD will revolutionize CPU speeds in this thread, then I suggest you stick to the dozen SSD threads or make your own.
 

Pallas

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Dude you just called the SSDs in the next-gen consoles "hype". It's not hype. It's real. I wish more people on GAF would talk about all the ways these next-gen consoles are a full gen leap. The I/O controller being another thing.
You can hype something that’s real. To say SSD isn’t hyped is being delusional. Nothing wrong with hyping it but it’s all everyone talks about now.
 
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jeffyjaixx

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Which again is something i would prefer over slightly faster loading times. Both systems are using SSD so both will have super fast loading times regardless, I just want higher performance for the gameplay, and while something like 60fps dropping down to 56-58 is hardly noticeable, a game like asscreed dropping from 30 to 26-27 would be. Though this generation has been a weird one in terms of which version is better than the other despite power gaps. Another factor I keep forgetting is development lead, like how we frequently see capcom games perform better on ps4 pro than the X (like MHW and RE)
I'm more intrigued about this super SSD compared to current high end PC's that Sony has developed and how it will translate in real games. 300 Mhz is pretty much insignificant especially when both are using the same CPU.
 

Nemesis Prime

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Would you kindly show me where they stated ps5 would be holding back?
He didn’t say it, I’m reading more into what he’s possibly alluding to and making assumptions.

But I’m also talking from the perspective that since the game is coming to SX exclusively (at launch at least), and it’s going to be tailor made to run perfectly for the SX, without having to have resources allocated to also tailoring the game for the PS5.
 

PocoJoe

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Fair point, though taking it as a whole package I would still argue that the faster cpu, gpu, higher ram count and larger ssd is still the better alternative to just a faster ssd.

though sony could prove me wrong on that front, and I’d be fine with that.
You (and many) are over simplifying.

crude example:

car 1) 500Hp 500Nm

car 2) 400Hp 400Nm

Which is "faster"? With your logic it would be always the car 1).

But what if 2) have AWD, or car 1) weights 5x more?

Or it is bus vs sports car. Or car 2 is really aerodynamic and car 1 is literal box shape?


So, when we have two consoles with specs that are really close to each other (and not like on current gen):

- Customizations between systems
- API
- Dev tools
- skills of devs on average and on best level
- Things that either company have not yet told us about the hardware/software?

Btw, they both have 16Gb of ram so "higher ram count??" they are identical. (bandwith is different but if you cant see the difference between ram amount and bandwith, I get it why to you things are so black and white, sorry)

My point is: Xsex can have even more "performance" than specs say, or it can have less than specs say. And same goes to PS5.

So, if you think that just by these few numbers it is already "written in a rock aka permanent" that one is clearly better than another, that is just not the case.


Just the talent and budget of different devs make huge differences, just look at biggest AAA vs indies = same system, completely different output.

And you are also really over simplifying "just faster SSD" when there could or could not be some customizations that affect the whole balance on both systems, and PS5 can be more than "just faster SSD" compared to xsex.

These specs wont win or lose the war. Games and popularity will, common casuals dont give a shit about ssd/cpu/gpu because they have no fucking clue what those even are. They look the fancy pics/videos and buy what is popular.
 
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Xplainin

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Yes they can be both at full power, read Cerny explanation (quoted underneath) and you aren't understanding the power budget concept:
they both have a power budget sealing at capped clocks, if one of them is not being used is transferred to the other, even if the other is at max clock _ in this situation it's the max wattage (the 'power budget' sealing) that is increased, giving it more headroom to maintain performance.


That's not it, power is diverged when it's not being used, read the full article

Edited for source
I absolutely understand it.
Just use your logic.
If the CPU has unused power it gets diverted to the GPU, but that can ONLY happen if the GPU isn't getting its full power allocation.
Do you think that if the GPU is using the full 2.23ghz and 10.2 tflops that if the CPU isn't using its full power budget the GPU can be given that extra power to exceed its capped speed and power?
No of course not.
Both cannot run at 100%, or there would never be a scenario where unused CPU power would need to be diverted to the GPU.
 

Ascend

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We really dont know what advantages one have over the other quite yet. The SSD is highly touted because its the fastest one ever created put into a console that took further step to eliminate the i/o bottle necks in a time when devs have been clamoring for an SSD standard. Give credit where its due my man.
I cannot support a group of people that is creating unrealistic expectations based on said hardware. The ones that created the PS5 hardware deserve credit. The ones using that hardware to spread lies and fud about other hardware do not deserve any sort of support. Especially if they refuse to listen to reason from the ones that are clearly more tech savvy.
 
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I cannot support a group of people that is creating unrealistic expectations based on said hardware. The ones that created the PS5 hardware deserve credit. The ones using that hardware to spread lies and fud about other hardware do not deserve any sort of support. Especially if they refuse to listen to reason from the ones that are clearly more tech savvy.
I dont support chest thumping on either side. When you say "The only reason the SSD is the main focus of conversation is because it's the main (if not only) advantage of the PS5", you yourself are spreading FUD and are discrediting the PS5 as a whole with no factual information. Ill say again the SSD/custom i/o is garnering the attention it is because it is "god-tier" and industry leading, not because its the only advantage it has over the XsX. Why even bring the XsX up?
 

Ascend

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I dont support chest thumping on either side. When you say "The only reason the SSD is the main focus of conversation is because it's the main (if not only) advantage of the PS5", you yourself are spreading FUD and are discrediting the PS5 as a whole with no factual information. Ill say again the SSD/custom i/o is garnering the attention it is because it is "god-tier" and industry leading, not because its the only advantage it has over the XsX. Why even bring the XsX up?
Why bring the XSX up? Because this is a thread that directly is relevant to the XSX? Because the opinion of these Xbox devs is that the CPU is more important than the SSD? I don't even agree with them on that by the way. They are both equally important at this point. The slower CPUs wouldn't be able to keep up with the SSDs anyway, and without the SSD the whole system would be bottlenecked. They can't work without one another.
And how we know that what I said is true, despite it apparently not being seen as such by some? The recent UE5 reveal, the most important and innovative tech there being nanite, is fully being accredited to solely the PS5 SSD. Yeah. I get it. That's what it's running on. But what they did with the engine is equally (if not more impressive) than the SSD. Any reasonable person would suspect that they wouldn't let a multiplatform engine leave the XSX completely in the dust, and since the XSX also has an SSD, that it most likely would be possible on there as well. But nope. Forget nanite. It's all the PS5 hardware... People have even said that billions of triangles are being rendered because of the SSD, which is blatantly false.

Remaining level-headed is hard apparently. The PS5 will be able to do some things that the XSX can't. That's true and that's fine. That doesn't mean we have to fall for fairytails. So I'll end with the same thing I said previously. Skepticism towards PR talk is healthy.
 
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Why bring the XSX up? Because this is a thread that directly is relevant to the XSX? Because the opinion of these Xbox devs is that the CPU is more important than the SSD? I don't even agree with them on that by the way. They are both equally important at this point. The slower CPUs wouldn't be able to keep up with the SSDs anyway, and without the SSD the whole system would be bottlenecked. They can't work without one another.
And how we know that what I said is true, despite it apparently not being seen as such by some? The recent UE5 reveal, the most important and innovative tech there being nanite, is fully being accredited to solely the PS5 SSD. Yeah. I get it. That's what it's running on. But what they did with the engine is equally (if not more impressive) than the SSD. Any reasonable person would suspect that they wouldn't let a multiplatform engine leave the XSX completely in the dust, and since the XSX also has an SSD, that it most likely would be possible on there as well. But nope. Forget nanite. It's all the PS5 hardware... People have even said that billions of triangles are being rendered because of the SSD, which is blatantly false.

Remaining level-headed is hard apparently. The PS5 will be able to do some things that the XSX can't. That's true and that's fine. That doesn't mean we have to fall for fairytails. So I'll end with the same thing I said previously. Skepticism towards PR talk is healthy.
Oh shit my bad, i forgot what thread i was in lol. I agree with everything in this post.
 

CatLady

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I dont support chest thumping on either side. When you say "The only reason the SSD is the main focus of conversation is because it's the main (if not only) advantage of the PS5", you yourself are spreading FUD and are discrediting the PS5 as a whole with no factual information. Ill say again the SSD/custom i/o is garnering the attention it is because it is "god-tier" and industry leading, not because its the only advantage it has over the XsX. Why even bring the XsX up?
It's a thread about the XsX from a developer building an exclusive game for the XsX, talking about the XsX's advantages. But why talk about the XsX, let's talk about The PS5 and it's SSD. WTF?

Oops we posted at the same time. I see it was just an honest mistake on your part. Sorry for ranting at you.
 
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Texas Pride

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You call me a zealot, but here you are complaining about people speaking about Xbox in a Xbox thread(in case that was not obvious to you). You want people to speak about your piece of plastic even in a thread about another piece of plastic. Do I often bump PlayStation threads and derail the conversation ? No I dont.
I realise I come out as unlikeable to some for not acknowledging there narrative, but when you(an example) derail a thread about Xbox Series X expansion card saying "PS5 has better solution because the expansion card is proprietary", I realise I have to be aggressive myself. If you use the Jason and Crytek card to say "devs think PS5 is better", I will use the second post in this thread.
If you instead wanted to listen about how Sony's SSD will revolutionize CPU speeds in this thread, then I suggest you stick to the dozen SSD threads or make your own.



I'm beginning to think you're daft. I own both consoles so your narrative doesn't fit no matter how hard you try. You are a zealot. That's your choice but playing the victim when you're called on it is fucking weak. You're the one with the unhealthy obsession not I.
 

Keihart

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So no excuse for shitty AI this gen.
most of the time AI seems dumb because devs avoid the competent AI so players don't complain about the game being too hard.
But i think there are basics things for NPCs that should be working but are still a problem like path finding, very few games have enemies and NPCs correctly moving across terrain, that shit is hilarious.

We need more consistent AI in games, more so than capable one really, i think that MGS soldiers are probably the best ones of any game, you can almost always predict their behavior, they are as diligent as it gets.

Trico it's another good example for me, it's consistent but there are many hidden things so you can't play him as much.
 

ToadMan

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That's fair enough but why is it even mentioned. Why is not the maximum possible for both stated like all console spec reveals since I can remember and be done.
Because Sony have come up with something innovative and that’s why they want to talk about it

They are tackling the power consumption and residual heat problem of these systems by working to a power budget and reducing clocks when the power budget is being exceeded.

I absolutely understand it.
Just use your logic.
If the CPU has unused power it gets diverted to the GPU, but that can ONLY happen if the GPU isn't getting its full power allocation.
Do you think that if the GPU is using the full 2.23ghz and 10.2 tflops that if the CPU isn't using its full power budget the GPU can be given that extra power to exceed its capped speed and power?
No of course not.
Both cannot run at 100%, or there would never be a scenario where unused CPU power would need to be diverted to the GPU.
I think you misunderstand the relationship between clock speed and the power usage.

Power usage is entirely based on the number of transistors activated each clock.

Flip 10% of transistors on one clock tick and that will consume power x and produce heat Y.

Flip 90% of transistors on that same clock tick and consume x’ power producing y’ heat where x’>x and y’>y.

That’s what the power budget is for. Yes the CPU and GPU can run at 100% clock all the time if the code running is within the power the budget and thermal profile Sony has targeted.

Exceed that power budget, and the system will throttle the clock speed to maintain constant power use. Smart switch allows the sytem to trade off the power budget of the CPU against the GPU - perhaps your power budget is 60% to GPU and 40% to CPU at 100% clock speed.

But, the geometric processing occurring is actually requiring 65% power usage at the GPU while the CPU isn’t working that hard - in this case smart switch allows the GPU power usage to rise while limiting the CPU to 35% power consumption. The clock speed hasn’t changed at either the cpu or gpu - the system isn’t running faster or slower but the power distribution has been adjusted.


The thing here is that this profile is deterministic and predictable at develop time - the logic is based on a “simulated” SoC not the actual temperature and power being used in a particular PS5 unit. So developers will optimise their code around the power budget and the CPU and GPU can run at 100% clock all the time if the power requirement allows.

However, if a developer decides not to optimise that well or perhaps gamers find away to do something outside the normal gameplay design spec causing a power spike (how about a game where it’s possible to spawn a massive number of elements which consume a small amount of processing power), then the system will take over to maintain the power budget.

The expectation is 2% reduction in clock will produce a 10% reduction in power consumption and heat output - so throttle the CPU by about 100MHz for example. Barely noticeable during normal gameplay and something devs will avoid anyway.
 
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Xplainin

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Because Sony have come up with something innovative and that’s why they want to talk about it

They are tackling the power consumption and residual heat problem of these systems by working to a power budget and reducing clocks when the power budget is being exceeded.



I think you misunderstand the relationship between clock speed and the power usage.

Power usage is entirely based on the number of transistors activated each clock.

Flip 10% of transistors on one clock tick and that will consume power x and produce heat Y.

Flip 90% of transistors on that same clock tick and consume x’ power producing y’ heat where x’>x and y’>y.

That’s what the power budget is for. Yes the CPU and GPU can run at 100% clock all the time if the code running is within the power the budget and thermal profile Sony has targeted.

Exceed that power budget, and the system will throttle the clock speed to maintain constant power use.

The thing here is that this profile is deterministic and predictable at develop time - the logic is based on a “simulated” SoC not the actual temperature and power being used in a particular PS5 unit. So developers will optimise their code around the power budget and the CPU and GPU can run at 100% clock all the time of the power requirement allows.

However, if a developer decides not to optimise that well or perhaps gamers find away to do something outside the normal gameplay design spec causing a power spike (how about a game where it’s possible to spawn a massive number of elements which consume a small amount of processing power), then the system will take over to maintain the power budget.

The expectation is 2% reduction in clock will produce a 10% reduction in power consumption and heat output - so throttle the CPU by about 100MHz for example. Barely noticeable during normal gameplay and something devs will avoid anyway.
I know how clock speed and power usage work.
You can choose to believe that the PS5 will be able to run both the CPU and GPU at full speed and usage 100% of the time if you wish, it won't change the reality of it.

Its no big deal really.
 
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ToadMan

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I know how clock speed and power usage work.
You can choose to believe that the PS5 will be able to run both the CPU and GPU at full speed and usage 100% of the time if you wish, it won't change the reality of it.

Its no big deal really.
Sony have explained how their system works and the technicality of it is accurate.

There’s no belief required - the system works that way.

EDIT : You said full speed and “usage”. That term usage is undefined. Perhaps that’s where your misunderstanding comes from. Clock speed and “usage” aren’t the same thing.
 
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Bogroll

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Because Sony have come up with something innovative and that’s why they want to talk about it

They are tackling the power consumption and residual heat problem of these systems by working to a power budget and reducing clocks when the power budget is being exceeded.



I think you misunderstand the relationship between clock speed and the power usage.

Power usage is entirely based on the number of transistors activated each clock.

Flip 10% of transistors on one clock tick and that will consume power x and produce heat Y.

Flip 90% of transistors on that same clock tick and consume x’ power producing y’ heat where x’>x and y’>y.

That’s what the power budget is for. Yes the CPU and GPU can run at 100% clock all the time if the code running is within the power the budget and thermal profile Sony has targeted.

Exceed that power budget, and the system will throttle the clock speed to maintain constant power use. Smart switch allows the sytem to trade off the power budget of the CPU against the GPU - perhaps your power budget is 60% to GPU and 40% to CPU at 100% clock speed.

But, the geometric processing occurring is actually requiring 65% power usage at the GPU while the CPU isn’t working that hard - in this case smart switch allows the GPU power usage to rise while limiting the CPU to 35% power consumption. The clock speed hasn’t changed at either the cpu or gpu - the system isn’t running faster or slower but the power distribution has been adjusted.


The thing here is that this profile is deterministic and predictable at develop time - the logic is based on a “simulated” SoC not the actual temperature and power being used in a particular PS5 unit. So developers will optimise their code around the power budget and the CPU and GPU can run at 100% clock all the time if the power requirement allows.

However, if a developer decides not to optimise that well or perhaps gamers find away to do something outside the normal gameplay design spec causing a power spike (how about a game where it’s possible to spawn a massive number of elements which consume a small amount of processing power), then the system will take over to maintain the power budget.

The expectation is 2% reduction in clock will produce a 10% reduction in power consumption and heat output - so throttle the CPU by about 100MHz for example. Barely noticeable during normal gameplay and something devs will avoid anyway.
I know that, i just hope it isn't tacked on for the TF war as 9.2 v 12 isn't so impressive and it is clocked very high. Also Xbox hasn't had to do this so that's why i'm curious about it.
 
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mckmas8808

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I know how clock speed and power usage work.
You can choose to believe that the PS5 will be able to run both the CPU and GPU at full speed and usage 100% of the time if you wish, it won't change the reality of it.

Its no big deal really.
This post shows you have NO IDEA how clock speed and power usage works. Like ZERO clue. ToadMan ToadMan explained it perfectly and you respond like this?

I know that, i just hope it isn't tacked on for the TF war as 9.2 v 12 isn't so impressive and it is clocked very high. Also Xbox hasn't had to do this so that's why i'm curious about it.
Sony designed the PS5 this way to combat the console noise issue that the PS4 and PS4 Pro had. They didn't do this to win a PR war of 9.2TF vs. 12TFs. That's a battle only hardcore videogame nerds like to have. It takes years to architect, research, develop, and manufacture these consoles. There's no way Sony would allow Cerny to re-engineer the whole PS5 within months' time just to win a PR Teraflops battle. This is where Occam's Razor has to come in mind. Just play the scenario out in your mind for a few minutes, then you'd realize it doesn't make sense.
 
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ZywyPL

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"Next-gen is about responsiveness, smoothness and a lot less time wasting. The problem with these features is that they are not easy to sell in videos or screenshots.”
Finally a dev that gets it! Sadly, after AC:V and UE5 demo I'm losing hope for 60FPS being more common that it was in current-generation.
 
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Bogroll

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This post shows you have NO IDEA how clock speed and power usage works. Like ZERO clue. ToadMan ToadMan explained it perfectly and you respond like this?



Sony designed the PS5 this way to combat the console noise issue that the PS4 and PS4 Pro had. They didn't do this to win a PR war of 9.2TF vs. 12TFs. That's a battle only hardcore videogame nerds like to have. It takes years to architect, research, develop, and manufacture these consoles. There's no way Sony would allow Cerny to re-engineer the whole PS5 within months' time just to win a PR Teraflops battle. This is where Occam's Razor has to come in mind. Just play the scenario out in your mind for a few minutes, then you'd realize it doesn't make sense.
Well you would hope they wouldn't have that noise issue again being as they are using new architecture and are basically starting a fresh and the competition didn't have the issue. If Ps5 is small form factor then fair enough. But what stands out to me was the wording of Xbox's sustained performance, it's almost like they knew PS5 had this variable performance. I know what fills me with confidence more. Potential of 10.28 TF or sustainable 12.1 TF.
At the moment i think of it of Micheal Johnson effortlessly cruising across the fish line in the 400m and Ps5 20m back battling it out for runner up position desperately dipping its head over the finish line trying to hit 10.28TF.
 

Xplainin

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This post shows you have NO IDEA how clock speed and power usage works. Like ZERO clue. ToadMan ToadMan explained it perfectly and you respond like this?



Sony designed the PS5 this way to combat the console noise issue that the PS4 and PS4 Pro had. They didn't do this to win a PR war of 9.2TF vs. 12TFs. That's a battle only hardcore videogame nerds like to have. It takes years to architect, research, develop, and manufacture these consoles. There's no way Sony would allow Cerny to re-engineer the whole PS5 within months' time just to win a PR Teraflops battle. This is where Occam's Razor has to come in mind. Just play the scenario out in your mind for a few minutes, then you'd realize it doesn't make sense.
You are just being ignorant now.
I said it exactly how it is.
Both the GPU and CPU CANNOT run at full load at the same time. That is why it has a power budget and variable speed.
That is why DF said they have spoken to developers who have said the exact thing.
You can choose to think of it any way you want if that helps you sleep at night.
After this post you can argue with yourself about it.
 
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sircaw

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A local pond.
Different horses for different courses i suppose.

At the end of the day this generation of consoles cpu's are beyond awful so i fully agree with what that developer is saying, its common sense.

As for the ssd side of things again, these old mechanical dives deserve to be banished into the past and never be seen again.

The cpu will bring benefits we should always of had and the ssd tec will bring things we never imagined possible.
Next generation =Great time to be a gamer.

We is all winners.
 
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D.Final

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Different horses for different courses i suppose.

At the end of the day this generation of consoles cpu's are beyond awful so i fully agree with what that developer is saying, its common sense.

As for the ssd side of things again, these old mechanical dives deserve to be banished into the past and never be seen again.

The cpu will bring benefits we should always of had and the ssd tec will bring things we never imagined possible.
Next generation =Great time to be a gamer.

We is all winners.
For me is always a great time to be a gamer.
Even as a retro gamer
 
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Jon Neu

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You're a zealot who cares too much not only about your plastic but what others think of your plastic. I don't give a shit what you had to say because if you could help yourself you would. To be fair you're not the only one on this site like that but you are one of the worst I've seen on the Xbox side. The free marketing you do for MS should be compensated because imo you put in way too much work to simply call it a hobby. If that offends you reflect on the behavior that earned you the rep you have.
Imagine being a Sony Warrior so full of your extremist corporate religion that you come to an Xbox thread to attack almost the only user who makes positive Xbox threads.
 

Panajev2001a

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You are just being ignorant now.
I said it exactly how it is.
Both the GPU and CPU CANNOT run at full load at the same time. That is why it has a power budget and variable speed.
That is why DF said they have spoken to developers who have said the exact thing.
You can choose to think of it any way you want if that helps you sleep at night.
After this post you can argue with yourself about it.
The problem is defining what load is (the work the chip is doing is the load) and how it affects performance of the solution comparatively and even in this case the frequency scaling to allow the same quantity of work to run may be pretty minimal 2-5% getting way more than 10% power budget (likely reducing voltage to achieve that too, so this checks out). Hence yes, both can run at full load. In some cases the full loss may be a 1000 FPS menu screen too ;).

Also the argument Cerny made about current consoles running into thermal limitations if you managed to reproduce ideal peak efficiency workload across both CPU and GPU is also something sensible that people would have called out bullshit easily if it were not true.

All in all, sure in some cases developers may need to give some cycles from one unit to the other to help or more likely choose a little bit less efficient way to run an operation on a unit to give more power budget to the other without either dropping in clocks at all.
 

cyber69

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Its not just the the XSX CPU at is 10-15% faster than PS5 CPU clock at max clock. A game's performance is a product of many factors like CPU, GPU, RAM speed etc. They are somehow able to hit 60 fps on Xbox Series X

It probably wont be able to hit 60 fps on PS5.
How anyone can be impressed with the Scorn trailer is beyond me. It was extremely static with not much going on per frame.
 

mckmas8808

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You are just being ignorant now.
I said it exactly how it is.
Both the GPU and CPU CANNOT run at full load at the same time. That is why it has a power budget and variable speed.
That is why DF said they have spoken to developers who have said the exact thing.
You can choose to think of it any way you want if that helps you sleep at night.
After this post you can argue with yourself about it.
Again this isn't true. Devs have NOT said both can't run at full power.
 

93xfan

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btw. just wondering, isn't the CPU of the PS5 and the XSEX very close to each other? Like almost to the point where it is ridiculous to base anything on the difference?
With smart shift, don’t developers have to choose between the CPU and GPU. So some developers would throttle back the CPU to get better visuals and resolutions, for example.
 
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Fun Fanboy

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Oh i have no agenda. Dig through my post history. You post shit like you're getting paid to do it. If you're not you're missing out. Your agenda though is crystal clear. Keep up the good fight.
Probably one of those Discord Xbox guys. Disgusting.
 
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Finally a dev that gets it! Sadly, after AC:V and UE5 demo I'm losing hope for 60FPS being more common that it was in current-generation.
I gotta believe it will be MORE common, maybe not VERY common, but at least a little more common than this gen...right? Or am I shooting the moon here

Will the actual game be good tho?
Hopefully. I like the aesthetic. I know aesthetic doesn't make a game, but it's a start.
 
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