omnislayer
Member
Must of thought the world needed more of the Man Show or something, christ.
Awesome.
Top of the page has me name dropping misogynism the show.
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ScreenJunkies' Andy Signore Accused of Sexual Harassment
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Awesome.
Top of the page has me name dropping misogynism the show.
BLAUcopter
Gold Member
Not anymore and not on the internet. People are so quick to demonise these days it's disgusting.
I don't get why people resort to social media to air things like this either. If I or my partner were sexually or otherwise harassed, the last place I'd go would be social fucking media. But I guess I never understood why people dragged their familys and friends on Dr. Phil / judge judy either.
In fairness, for all you know she might've tried other avenues. It's not like there's a lot of impetus out there to handle cases of sexual harassment once employment has been terminated, and accusers are typically doubted first. It's only on social media where the reverse is true, you can say it's an overcorrection but it is a correction of a prior imbalance.
This is the logical result of a society that stacked the odds against women in cases of sexual assault. Once an alternative arena opened up where women for once had the advantage (and the advantage is tenuous, because they always put themselves at risk of counter-harassers and doxxers), of course they would use it.
Bobo Dakes
Member
You did read the story of victims going to HR or telling people who worked with him these stories, right?
That's just several examples of why in a single topic.
It goes both ways.
Hazelhurst
Member
Unsubbed from screen junkies.
Black people do have a shitty situation with the law where they get sentenced for shit they didn't do far more easily than white people do, but don't forget that a big portion (perhaps a majority, even) of sexual harassment & assault cases go unreported and from cases that do get reported, another big portion of them do not result in anything happening against the harasser/assaulter, and from the ones that do result in something, the results/sentences are often too light for the crime commited (a slap on the wrist, perhaps only months in jail).
Because otherwise they wouldn't be heard, especially when they try to go up against popular public personas on their own. It can also be enough to encourage others to come forward who have suffered the same shitty behaviour from the same person. Because "don't tell me about your sexual harassment publicly" is an attitude that shuts up people who have gone through it, makes being a victim something shameful that needs to be hidden while the harassers possibly, probably continue being the awful people they are.
It's not rocket science.
It sounds like you didn't read the story and how multiple women went to HR and were railroaded.
brianmcdoogle
Member
Mind blown.
Sure, but the moral principles behind the presumption of innocence can apply on a personal and societal level, outside of the court of law. Which is to say that punishing an innocent person for a crime they did not commit is deeply abhorrent, and should be avoided at all costs.
Considering someone guilty and society treating them in such a way - as a sexual harasser etc - can amount to a de facto punishment in and of itself involving social ostracisation, loss of job, development of mental health issues etc, and therefore it's best if we don't so judge people unless we have some form of evidence - so as to avoid meting out that treatment to innocent people.
Where our personal standard differs from a criminal court is a court they must judge guilt 'beyond a reasonable doubt' in most cases, whereas the average person will use the civil case standard of 'balance of probabilities' in their personal life. But even on the balance of probabilities I'm inclined to give the accused the benefit of the doubt until I see evidence beyond a single accuser, and the suggestion that all accusations of harassment must be believed or one is party to the oppression of women is ridiculous to me.
On the other hand, I do understand the argument that the statistical facts surrounding rape / assault / harassment accusations make them more likely than not to be true. That satisfies the 'balance of probabilities' test for some people, and I certainly won't judge those people for that. For me, just the fact that false or misremembered or exaggerated accusations are possible is enough for me to wait for more facts before I offer my judgment as part of the public chorus and perhaps become part of the wrongful vilification of an innocent person.
Woof, that channel banner is killing me. Like it's designed to be an Arrested Development type gag someday. Someone plays one of these videos in a courtroom and Andy is like "this isn't my work" and then we scroll up to the actual channel banner with "The work of ANDY SIGNORE" in bright color with an arrow pointing to his beaming fucking face.
Bridges
Member
When I was in High School I was accused of attempting to rape a girl (who I was friends with) at a party. Needless to say I didn't do it, and luckily there were plenty of witnesses to claim that no such thing occurred.
But how many of you truly know how it feels to be put in that situation, to have someone point at you and say rapist? That's the kinda shit that ruins lives.
I think it's extremely important to take a step back and get as accurate of an understanding as possible before you start pointing fingers at someone. As this thread went on we of course have seen more and more evidence of such conduct, but at the beginning there is certainly nothing wrong with being hesitant to jump without proof.
The "if you're not with us you're against us" mentality that some people have is a little concerning. Protect the victims, yes! That's super important, but make sure you aren't creating more in the process.
Luckily (or I guess unluckily actually) that's not gonna be a problem here since we all have a lot more to reflect on now, and unfortunately he's as sleazy as claimed.
But how many of you truly know how it feels to be put in that situation, to have someone point at you and say rapist? That's the kinda shit that ruins lives.
I think it's extremely important to take a step back and get as accurate of an understanding as possible before you start pointing fingers at someone. As this thread went on we of course have seen more and more evidence of such conduct, but at the beginning there is certainly nothing wrong with being hesitant to jump without proof.
The "if you're not with us you're against us" mentality that some people have is a little concerning. Protect the victims, yes! That's super important, but make sure you aren't creating more in the process.
Luckily (or I guess unluckily actually) that's not gonna be a problem here since we all have a lot more to reflect on now, and unfortunately he's as sleazy as claimed.
Westbahnhof
Banned
Is the bolded true? Especially the "broadcast" part?
Over here, every article on non-convicted people includes "Es gilt die Unschuldsvermutung", basically, stating the legal presumption of innocence.
I don't see why some people seem to treat the system like it's completely arbitrary.
It reads like "I don't have to judge fairly, so why should I do anything but trust my gut".
Proclaiming someone guilty can have extreme consequences. Even if you aren't part of the justice system.
More like why shitty people have access to YouTube. I mean, I get your point but sadly there is no rule that says that in order to upload to YouTube you must be a well behaving citizen.
Sooner or later idiots will reveal their true colors, they just hold long enough to become YouTube famous.
Messofanego
Banned
Why you folks talking innocence and waiting for facts with this out in the open?
DMs
Emails (Gopher Broke is Andy Signore)
Westbahnhof
Banned
Because the thread has gone a tiny bit off the rails and the stuff you quoted is not about Andy, but about initial presumptions of guilt/innocence, I'd say
Messofanego
Banned
Which is irrelevant at this point.
Westbahnhof
Banned
Irrelevant for this case, you mean.
It's not irrelevant in general as long as the world keeps turning. It's not an irrelevant talking point.
The question how far presumptions of innocence/guilt should go will always be relevant.
Brianmcdoogle's post is clearly not about Andy either.
Bobo Dakes
Member
It is weird to STILL be going on about "but hypothetically, you don't want to presume guilt too early" in a thread about someone that's guilty as fuck.
Not to mention several of us have clarified the difference between "believing the victim" and "automatically condemning the accused", which AGAIN, none of us were doing.
I feel for people who have been falsely accused, but given that the majority of posters in here are men, it's much easier for you to imagine yourselves in that scenario than to imagine yourself as victim trying to get their story out.
Not to mention several of us have clarified the difference between "believing the victim" and "automatically condemning the accused", which AGAIN, none of us were doing.
I feel for people who have been falsely accused, but given that the majority of posters in here are men, it's much easier for you to imagine yourselves in that scenario than to imagine yourself as victim trying to get their story out.
Then post about it the next time we have a thread about false accusations (which are statistically over-represented on this forum), not in the thread about the guy who was a creep and receipts have been well and truly brought.
Westbahnhof
Banned
The discussion started very early, and the topic matter doesn't rely on Andy's guilt or innocence.
I don't think the case that started this resolving any question should have any bearing on the discussion itself.
But I'm done, just stating how I view the situation before flying to Ireland soon.
I hope the women Andy harassed and assaulted get justice.
What do you have against the Lannisters?
Sgt. Kabukiman
Banned
Captain America: Secret Empire, coming to a theater near you in 2021, will break all of our collective hearts. I, for one, welcome the eternal darkness that will ensue.
We already have a side convo in which someone else who works for Screen Junkies (Jon Bailey, aka EpicVoiceGuy) is being faced with the same accusation with far less corroboration than even the very first account levied against Signore before the text dumps started happening. It's still relevant in this conversation under the circumstances (unless you want a separate thread for every accusation of this matter that surfaces against a Screen Junkies figure).
ClosingADoor
Member
No, but it will any time now!
I really don't get guys who do this. Act like a normal human being. And those emails and texts, god damn. Learn to have a normal conversation with someone. You saying a 100 times you are "weird" does not excuse the terrible behavior on display.
nocturnalis
Member
Not even sure that I would put Chris Evans. That Age of Ultron press tour was a doozy.
……forgetit
Member
Most of the presumption talk relates to the first few pages when all we had was the word of a single victim.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
Seriously. It is amazing how the needle has swung so far, so quickly, that anything other than a willingness to immediately treat accused persons as guilty - which, hello, if it were to be the social standard, would basically mean an accusation of sexual malfeasance would result in an instant shunning of the accused person, unless we also change the compartment that is perceived as necessary toward such individuals - is seen as an unacceptable siding with essentially evil behavior.
Off-topic is becoming every bit the intolerant echo chamber it's always been accused of being.
Statistically speaking, false accusations of sexual assault & such are, like, pretty close to a 1 or 2 out of 100 thing (and even then, those statistics might be biased in favor of false accusations because it doesn't necessarily make a difference between actual false accusations and accusations that are true but due to lack of evidence or bad handling of the case, no one was convicted). So let's not act as if this destroys countless lives all the time & crow is constantly being served in cases like this. We live in a world where the victims of sexual harassment, assault & rape are too often shunned, not believed in and ultimately do not get justice, so stop making this seem like it's the other way around. Victims of sexual abuse & harassment who don't get justice is far more common than falsely accused getting wrongly convicted.
And most people here were like "if this is true, fuck this guy, actions need to be taken". Keyword "if". No one was immediately demanding him jail for life. People like you don't seem to understand how hard it is to come forward and accuse someone of something like this publicly, doubly so when it's a public figure who is more or less liked and has the support of whatever institution they are working for who have possibly already stonewalled the accuser when she/he tried to do something behind the scenes. It's not that no one ever falsely does so, but this was someone who doesn't hide behind Internet anonymity. If this was just some random reddit user comment, I don't think people would believe it as easily.
If you haven't noticed, the accusations against the the epic voice guy of haven't gained traction at all or nearly as much because no one or very few people are willing to believe just any random reddit poster. But this is someone with a face & a name we can confirm has been in business with Andy blaming him of such actions. It's much more believable, because such a person doesn't necessarily have much to gain from accusing him and a woman accusing a public figure of such a thing becomes a target to the MRA & rabid fanboy/girl types who cannot accept any wrongdoings from their dear targets of fandom.
Jimmyfenix
Member
"I'm not weird lol"
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
I'm well familiar with sexual assault statistics, but the jankiness extends both ways. Acts that take place in private, leave little evidence, and are contingent at least somewhat on the subjective perceptions of the participants (moreso in the case of harassment) are difficult to collate statistics for.
I'm not suggesting we call anybody a liar, I am saying that agnosticism (i.e. the "if") is both the de facto and the morally correct stance. Posters in here are basically arguing that the victim has to be assumed to be telling the truth, which is different than saying they could be telling the truth (i.e. "if") and necessarily entails action against the accused and would very easily be abused and become a form of extralegal punishment were this the behavior of wider society and not a conscious overcorrection on the part of select "woke" individuals.
People tend to examine what universal application of a behavior would look like when it is suggested as being morally superior to the behavior they are currently engaged in.
Edit: Jesus, this dude has the least amount of smoothness he could possibly have.
omg ur so rite!
Bobo Dakes
Member
You realize you're not their lawyer, right?
Replace "children" with "accused" and that's all I'm getting from your post.
An accusation is made, we take the statement (which in this case is from a first party), we look to the accused, we investigate, we find proof, a call is made based on what was found.
That's what should happen. Of course, that didn't happen here. Several accusations were made and were ignored for months.
Yes. Agreed. I do not believe in the "don't believe the victim until there's more evidence because what if she's lying, the accused's life could be ruined" philosophy. I'm not saying people don't lie and make shit up, but it's far more likely that the victim is telling the truth rather than the victim is trying to ruin someone's life by lying. As I've said, I think this philosophy leads to the under reporting of sexual assault and abuse.
And, again, we are not talking about burden of proof in a courtroom.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Okay, that is good.
Is this about that time, Evans laughed along with Hawkeye (who seems to be an unrepentant sleaze) saying gross stuff about Black Widow and then gave a rather-sincere-for-Hollywood apology thereafter?
Cuz I hope it's just that, which was pretty damn disappointing but not a pattern of sketchiness as far as I know.
"most older guys only hang out with younger girls" eh?
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
You realize you're not their lawyer, right?
Replace "children" with "accused" and that's all I'm getting from your post.
An accusation is made, we take the statement (which in this case is from a first party), we look to the accused, we investigate, we find proof, a call is made based on what was found.
That's what should happen. Of course, that didn't happen here. Several accusations were made and were ignored for months.
Concern for the accused is literally one of the bedrocks of Western justice. No, this isn't a courtroom, but that doesn't mean "I won't treat somebody as guilty if I have no evidence they did the thing they are accused of" is a bad philosophy. Indeed, as I stated, I think pairing that with a willingness for accusers to make their case and to see how things shake out once the dust settles is, in fact, both the de facto and the morally correct stance!
Bobo Dakes
Member
Yes, but your concern for the accused comes at the cost of the victim, which is why these things are underreported.
When we say "believe the victim", we're not simultaneously kicking the accused off a cliff. I already walked through the proper steps being taken now that this story gained traction.
Yeah, but you've got to understand that for many, this isn't the first rodeo in town. Do note that I'm mostly talking about accusations towards more public people and ones that are more than random forum posts. The "let's wait for more information" train for public figures accused of these types of things has long since gone when time after time again, these accusations are proven to be true. I don't even remember when was the last time a public figure was accused of these types of things (in more than just some random reddit post with no name or affiliation attached to the accuser) that turned out to be total BS.
If this was a private person, I'd call for more caution as well, but it's just far too common for people in (relatively) high & visible places to do shit like this, so whenever it's a woman with a face & a name going to twitter to accuse popular Youtuber X or Y or Actor Z they've had dealings with for being slimeballs, it's not really surprising that people nowadays opt for going for the "believe the accuser" stance immediately, after so many cases of it being proven to be true and so few or even nigh non-existent examples of the opposite.
LordKasual
Banned
Dude sounds like a high school nerd desperately trying to side-holler at some girl who friendzoned him years ago
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