Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice | OT | Borne of Souls

Grinchy

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The problem is when you are shit at parry the game gets really hard and frustrating. In dark souls you could find the playstyle that matched your ability. In Sekiro your just fucked. And if people are legit frustrated then yes, it's somewhat poor design.
I don't completely disagree with the comparison to other Souls games. I could see a lot of legitimate reasons for someone not liking this game. But bad design? I just can't agree there. There are plenty of games that don't resonate with me, like most racing games. That doesn't mean that developers have been designing racing games poorly all this time.

You can't please everyone and From really took a cool risk with this one. The truth is that the other Souls games had really easy ways of progressing compared to this. If someone has played all the Souls games and can't beat bosses in this one, I'd guess it's possible that they have always summoned players for boss fights or looked up the cheesiest methods. All of that is fine to do, obviously, but this game requires the player to actually play the game on their own and that's not bad design even if it turns some people off.
 

Danjin44

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The problem is when you are shit at parry the game gets really hard and frustrating. In dark souls you could find the playstyle that matched your ability. In Sekiro your just fucked. And if people are legit frustrated then yes, it's somewhat poor design.
I'm sorry thats not poor design, its like blaming FPS game's design just because that someone is suck at aiming, where is logic to that?
 
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The parry window in Sekiro is EXTREMELY generous. Not comparable to the Souls games, in which parrying was just secondary.

Today I found out the true easy mode of this game. As in every From game, you need to pay attention to details, though this one is not concealed at all. There is an object that allows you to resurrect infinite times. See? That's easy mode. there is a little catch, though, but definitely it makes the game much easier.

By the way, I also feel kind of sorry for poor bastard Demon of Hatred. I have killed him with my dirtiest trick. Basically you can take out his 3 life bars at once.


So yes, there is an easy mode for us cunning ninjas with mediocre skills. What From doesnt forgive is dumbness or lack of attention.
 
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I did it. I beat the last boss. My hands are still shaking lol

I got the first two forms down easily, to the point where I was only getting hit once or twice. Third form was the toughest as I couldn't take advantage of Spiral Clod Passage (this combat art rips the first two apart after every mikiri and unblockable) so I kept praying for mikiri counters (easily telegraphed) to quickly break his posture. His last form I didn't get to practice against much, but I was able to nail him with a couple of lightning counters and they ate through his health bar which made it easier.
 

nkarafo

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The parry window in Sekiro is EXTREMELY generous. Not comparable to the Souls games, in which parrying was just secondary.

Today I found out the true easy mode of this game. As in every From game, you need to pay attention to details, though this one is not concealed at all. There is an object that allows you to resurrect infinite times. See? That's easy mode. there is a little catch, though, but definitely it makes the game much easier.

By the way, I also feel kind of sorry for poor bastard Demon of Hatred. I have killed him with my dirtiest trick. Basically you can take out his 3 life bars at once.


So yes, there is an easy mode for us cunning ninjas with mediocre skills. What From doesnt forgive is dumbness or lack of attention.
I'm at NG+ and i have no idea of the stuff you are talking about. Can you spoil the secrets for me?
 
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I decided to upload my win against Genichiro and Isshin.

I managed to beat Genichiro without getting hit which felt pretty good:

And here's the rest of the fight. Almost beat Isshin first form without getting hit either:
 
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I'm at NG+ and i have no idea of the stuff you are talking about. Can you spoil the secrets for me?

For infinite respawns: there is a tooth dropped by the immortal guy you train with, if you kill him with the mortal blade. The catch is that you need to commit suicide first so the next respawn doesnt count as resurrection. The trick is doing it when you have a sliver of life left and come back with half bar. You need to time it right but still it's a great help


As for the demon of hatred, from the altar you run to the left and stay for a moment on the corner (facing the cliff) as the demon approaches, run away to the left and stay another moment near the doors (castle entrance). The demon will try to hit you from behind the building and will get stuck. Now that you can walk safely, turn around and see the watch tower behind you. You need to perform a tricky jump so that you get on top of the tower. (run, jump and double jump + grab, you will magically make an impossible grab onto the ledge) Once you are on the roof, face the wall you came from. This is a very difficult jump that takes many tries. You need to make a diagonal run from the lower left corner to the upper right corner. If you delay your jump for half a second you will step on an invisible platform and will be able to get across to the other side.

Now comes the fun part: you climb the gate and walk where the demon is stuck. As soon as you he sees you, the demon will thrust forward off the edge, killing himself.
 
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nkarafo

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For infinite respawns: there is a tooth dropped by the immortal guy you train with, if you kill him with the mortal blade. The catch is that you need to commit suicide first so the next respawn doesnt count as resurrection. The trick is doing it when you have a sliver of life left and come back with half bar. You need to time it right but still it's a great help


As for the demon of hatred, from the altar you run to the left and stay for a moment on the corner (facing the cliff) as the demon approaches, run away to the left and stay another moment near the doors (castle entrance). The demon will try to hit you from behind the building and will get stuck. Now that you can walk safely, turn around and see the watch tower behind you. You need to perform a tricky jump so that you get on top of the tower. (run, jump and double jump + grab, you will magically make an impossible grab onto the ledge) Once you are on the roof, face the wall you came from. This is a very difficult jump that takes many tries. You need to make a diagonal run from the lower left corner to the upper right corner. If you delay your jump for half a second you will step on an invisible platform and will be able to get across to the other side.

Now comes the fun part: you climb the gate and walk where the demon is stuck. As soon as you he sees you, the demon will thrust forward off the edge, killing himself.
Cool to know about the first one. Might be useful in certain situations but i don't think i can abuse it, especially in NG+ where you often die with 2 hits.

As for the Demon, i think it's easier to just beat him legit :p
 

Ahjumbie

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I've played the game now of 24 hrs and have come to the conclusion that I like it ..lol.. there does seem to be an inconsistency with the difficulty spikes in the bosses though , for me at least. Lady Butterfly was much harder than the next 3 bosses I fought, then the GA comes along to ramp it up once again in an obnoxious boring fight. So far that is my Bed of Chaos WTF boss fight ...
 

#Phonepunk#

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loved the GA fight. yeah that's a tough one but it's soooo good. there are only a few giant enemy fights in Sekiro but they are really well done.
 

Danjin44

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loved the GA fight. yeah that's a tough one but it's soooo good. there are only a few giant enemy fights in Sekiro but they are really well done.
I really like most of the boss design and like how most of the time they trying to deceive you. For example: When you are fighting Owl the second time in Hirata Estate, his does his combo and then he does over head attack. At first its seems very slow so you would think you just go behind him do easy damage but he suddenly changes and just sweep attacks and if try back off he instead jump at you. I love that.
 

LucidDreamer

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The parry window in Sekiro is EXTREMELY generous. Not comparable to the Souls games, in which parrying was just secondary.

Today I found out the true easy mode of this game. As in every From game, you need to pay attention to details, though this one is not concealed at all. There is an object that allows you to resurrect infinite times. See? That's easy mode. there is a little catch, though, but definitely it makes the game much easier.

By the way, I also feel kind of sorry for poor bastard Demon of Hatred. I have killed him with my dirtiest trick. Basically you can take out his 3 life bars at once.


So yes, there is an easy mode for us cunning ninjas with mediocre skills. What From doesnt forgive is dumbness or lack of attention.
Care to elaborate?
Edit: Nevermind
 
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JRW

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Ahh finally beat Genichiro Ashina today, I felt refreshed after not playing for a couple days and beat him on my 3rd try which was a trip, last time I played I had spent around 4 hours trying to beat him lol

Also I can't say for sure but It seems the game just feels better running with its default 60fps cap, I removed the 144Hz / 144fps mod today before playing and its fine at 60fps esp. with Gsync enabled, perhaps there's an actual reason for this default cap.
 

tassletine

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I'm sorry thats not poor design, its like blaming FPS game's design just because that someone is suck at aiming, where is logic to that?
There are two different types of gameplay here. Bee and Butterfly. One is fast and reaction based, the other is patience based. You wait for an opening and strike.

On base ps4 and xbox the Bee option isn't really an option as not only is the game slower and less quick to react, but when things get busy, the game stops responding. Buttons stop working and other characters act weirdly too. If you don't have a good refersh rate on your TV you don't stand a chance.

So, if you design a game that doesn't properly on the machine with the biggest install base, that is poor design -- As any design has to work with the intended hardware.
 
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tassletine

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i'm struggling to bring myself to come back to the game.

soulsborne was frustrating but it felt rewarding when you finally beat a boss but with Sekiro i feel nothing after beating them. it's less like "YES! i feel more powerful and know what i'm doing" and more like "THANK FUCK....i can FINALLY move on it." but the thing is....i really don't feel any urge to keep going. when i say soulsborune is frustrating well i mean Sekiro is FUCKING FRUSTRATING :messenger_pouting::messenger_pouting::messenger_pouting:

i'll keep it installed and play it in short bursts. the game isn't bad overall but the bosses are just straight up bullshit and when i gotta cheese them that ruins any enjoyment. i don't mind using strategies to beat a boss but when someone tells you "constantly dodge to the right!" or "go to this place, hang from that ledge, and just keep whackin 'em cause they get stuck in a loop" or "just de-aggro 'em!" that just isn't right and stinks of poor design.
I agree. For me the swordfighting is like someone asking me to learn chopsticks on a broken piano for an audience of none.

I don't like the tune, the piano doesn't work properly and when I've finally done it, what I'm usually left with is just that feeling of relief that my shitty piano recital that no one will ever see is over.

Maybe Sekiro was designed for a modern Twitch audience that gets enjoyment from actual audience feedback? -- There's something missing for me.
 
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Meccs

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After picking up Nioh again and starting from scratch (I already had 30ish hours in Nioh but never finished it) I have to say that I like Sekiro even less now. Nioh is everything I loved about Souls games and adds to it. The different weapons, the gear, the methodical combat and the level design, everything feels coherent and thought out. Just like a Soulsbourne game. Adding on top of that the loot aspect is fantastic. Sekiro removes most if not all of that. For me personally Sekiro is almost like how The Surge felt. Like a small slice of Soulsbourne that didn't really work out in the end.
Adding to what @blly155 said: I agree, I never felt that excited after beating a boss in Sekiro. The heavy emphasis on parrying with pretty much every boss fight just felt tedious at some point. And I think the stealth and grappling hook bring nothing to the table. I actually think both remove what makes Soulsbourne games so great, carefully placed enemies and well thought out level design.
 
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Flutterborn

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2) Entered the room with the sitting samurai master to get my ass kicked.
if you mean the Elite Samurai that goes before Genichiro he's piss easy if you know his trick. Keep an eye on his sword and when you see a glint, dodge right (or parry if you're feeling good). Don't try to face him head on as he's Kenshin levels of fast when drawing his sword.
 
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Verdanth

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if you mean the Elite Samurai that goes before Genichiro he's piss easy if you know his trick. Keep an eye on his sword and when you see a glint, dodge right (or parry if you're feeling good). Don't try to face him head on as he's Kenshin levels of fast when drawing his sword.
The dude has some sharp senses. I had the trouble of getting around the castle to get in the room through the window and even then the sob listened me. He is super fast...if Im strugling here imagine me versus the main bosses :messenger_tears_of_joy:
 

Ahjumbie

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Played on stream with a death counter while trying Sake for the first time..I was able to beat CM and O'rin in 2 tries each ..as i drank more i could see myself gettin ? Worse and worse ..,lol
Pops
beat me down 7 times and by the time I reached TM I was making all kinds of stupid mistakes and stopped at 8 deaths . On a side note on really like Sake:messenger_savoring: ..reminds me of vodka without the kick to the nuts
 
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General Lee

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I'm pretty much finished with the game. The only remaining thing to do is get a few last skills that I didn't still get in my previous 4 playthroughs to get all achievements. As much as I like the game, it quickly runs out of replay value in comparison to From's previous games. I played my third run without Kuro's charm and with Demon Bell, and that definitely added considerable challenge, and once I was done with that the 4th playthrough was a real breeze after learning all the moves and not having to deal with posture issues against most bosses.

Here's a gif I made for fun. Playing with mods and no hud this last go, the game can look really pretty at 4K with Reshade.

 
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I'm pretty much finished with the game. The only remaining thing to do is get a few last skills that I didn't still get in my previous 4 playthroughs to get all achievements. As much as I like the game, it quickly runs out of replay value in comparison to From's previous games. I played my third run without Kuro's charm and with Demon Bell, and that definitely added considerable challenge, and once I was done with that the 4th playthrough was a real breeze after learning all the moves and not having to deal with posture issues against most bosses.

Here's a gif I made for fun. Playing with mods and no hud this last go, the game can look really pretty at 4K with Reshade.

Damn now I wish they could implement option to play as other characters too without needing to play on PC and modding it (I can't play anything other than CS:GO here ;<). Or something like in Tenchu 3 boss rush mode in multiplayer where you pick a character and kill bosses one after one.

 
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NutJobJim

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if you mean the Elite Samurai that goes before Genichiro he's piss easy if you know his trick. Keep an eye on his sword and when you see a glint, dodge right (or parry if you're feeling good). Don't try to face him head on as he's Kenshin levels of fast when drawing his sword.
The poison spear prosthetic works well on this guy too.
 
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cr0w

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Fought Genichiro for four hours on Saturday night before I finally got him down. By the time I beat him, I had that shit on lockdown. Didn't touch me for the first two phases, and during the third phase I think he hit me once. Felt so good to whip his ass after trying for so long.

Now I'm in the Depths and hating life again.
 

royox

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Fought Genichiro for four hours on Saturday night before I finally got him down. By the time I beat him, I had that shit on lockdown. Didn't touch me for the first two phases, and during the third phase I think he hit me once. Felt so good to whip his ass after trying for so long.

Now I'm in the Depths and hating life again.
Good news, Genichiro is one of the top3 hardest bosses, nothing you fight will be that hard till you reach the end.
 

TheDuskwalker

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Games getting a patch today.

Sekiro Update 1.03 Patch Notes
Improvements to Strategic Approaches
  • Adjusted the efficiency and Spirit Emblem cost of the following to encourage usage and diversity of approach:
    • Prosthetic Tools: Lazulite Sacred Flame, Loaded Axe series, Sparking Axe, Lazulite Axe
    • Combat Arts: Ashina Cross, Dragon Flash, One Mind, Floating Passage, Spiral Cloud Passage, Mortal Draw, Empowered Mortal Draw
    • Items: Spiritfall series
  • Reduced the Posture damage dealt by the first hit of the Combat Arts "Senpou Leaping Kicks" and "High Monk" as it was causing more damage than intended in certain cases. Posture damage dealt in the latter-half of the combo has been increased.
  • Increased the Poison build-up dealt by the Prosthetic Tool "Sabimaru" against enemies that were intended to be weak against it.
  • Increased the drop rate of "Divine Confetti" for Fencers in Ashina Castle.
  • Adjusted loading screen tips and tutorial text, as well as adding new text.
Other Fixes
  • Slightly reduced Posture and Vitality of Blazing Bull in order to improve game pacing and balance time in combat.
  • Lowered the price of information sold by Anayama the Peddler.
  • The Chained Ogre inside Ashina Castle is now Red Eyed.
  • Fixed a bug where "Gokan's Sugar" and "Gokan's Spiritfall" were not mitigating player Posture damage taken while guarding or deflecting enemy attacks.
  • Fixed a bug where system crashes could cause save data to become corrupted on PC.
  • Fixed a bug where certain enemies would sometimes stop attacking the player.
  • Fixed a bug where certain actions could not be performed after reconfiguring the controls.
  • Fixed certain bugs that were allowing the player to access unexpected areas, which could result in becoming unable to obtain items or make further progress.
  • Fixed cases of certain text being displayed incorrectly.
  • Improved stability.
  • Improved performance.
  • Other various bug fixes.
 
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Danjin44

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The Chained Ogre inside Ashina Castle is now Red Eyed.
Interesting, but even without that if you get the follow up attack skill that make your blade catch fire if you immediately attack after using Flame Vent, the Ogre will get fire status and get stunned trying put out the fire.
 

Shifty.

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Grinchy

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I feel like the spirit emblem change could be nice. I have tons of them, but it's only because I don't use them. I was just using the sword the whole time, which was satisfying, but this leaves room for playing things differently.
 

Ivellios

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I completed the game yesterday, i think beating the last boss was my proudest accomplishment in single player games.

Amazing game overall, cant wait for the inevitable DLC for it.

Good news, Genichiro is one of the top3 hardest bosses, nothing you fight will be that hard till you reach the end.
I disagree, Owl in Ashina castle and Hirata Estate was much harder. Genichiro was actually normal compared to the true hard bosses imo.
 

TitusTroy

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in my PC save game folder there's 2 files- S0000.sl2 and S0000.sl2.bak...is the .bak file a backup in case the main one gets corrupted?...did they add that in with the new patch?...I didn't see the .bak file before in that folder
 

Danjin44

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I completed the game yesterday, i think beating the last boss was my proudest accomplishment in single player games.

Amazing game overall, cant wait for the inevitable DLC for it.



I disagree, Owl in Ashina castle and Hirata Estate was much harder. Genichiro was actually normal compared to the true hard bosses imo.
I agree and I would say Emma for Shura ending is much harder than Genichiro.
 

tassletine

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After picking up Nioh again and starting from scratch (I already had 30ish hours in Nioh but never finished it) I have to say that I like Sekiro even less now. Nioh is everything I loved about Souls games and adds to it. The different weapons, the gear, the methodical combat and the level design, everything feels coherent and thought out. Just like a Soulsbourne game. Adding on top of that the loot aspect is fantastic. Sekiro removes most if not all of that. For me personally Sekiro is almost like how The Surge felt. Like a small slice of Soulsbourne that didn't really work out in the end.
Adding to what @blly155 said: I agree, I never felt that excited after beating a boss in Sekiro. The heavy emphasis on parrying with pretty much every boss fight just felt tedious at some point. And I think the stealth and grappling hook bring nothing to the table. I actually think both remove what makes Soulsbourne games so great, carefully placed enemies and well thought out level design.
I agree, although I did get bored of Nioh too at some point, Sekiro is definitely a regression

I was playing Cuphead this weekend and realised that the gameplay there is similar, structurally speaking to Sekiro -- Levels to grind, but mostly it's a boss battle game.

However, Cuphead knows what sort of game it is and how to make this sort of game, fun for the player. Bosses are tough, but load times are quick so you can get back into the fight instantly. The bosses and levels are also visually inventive and give you a reward simply by viewing them. It's very entertaining. The controls are also very responsive.

Sekiro though, isn't interested in response times, and it seems to think it's doing something special with all it'sgameplay mechanics.
It hides a continue under a 'resurrection' mechanic, even though it's blatantly just a standard continue -- and it puts a layer of quirk over almost every mechanic to try and convince you it's doing something new -- But it's not.

These new mechanics barely add anything. Hidden Aid? Who cares about that? Why would you spend time even developing that feature?
Most of the new systems are like this and have very little practical use. Just a lot of clutter which amounts to little.

A lot of these sorts of mechanics were tried and tested back in the 80's then either disregarded or improved upon. Here From Software ignore all the progress that's been made blending and balancing those sorts of gameplay problems and they just leave them hanging, hiding them under a shroud of 'difficulty'. It's pretty lazy. There are so many loose ends here.
The challenge for From (or any decent company) is to update their systems (ie the camera) and make them work for a modern audience, not just leave them rotting in the past.


To their credit though, the game is fun, and if you like bragging about your prowess even more fun as it seems to be designed for leaderboards and to stoke that audience.
If you're into games mainly for the moment to moment gameplay, there's so much that's broken here, that it's distracting. The game is good, but it's not that good. To me it feels like a Demon Souls... Something that if it's refined will be superb.
 

wzy

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I agree, although I did get bored of Nioh too at some point, Sekiro is definitely a regression

I was playing Cuphead this weekend and realised that the gameplay there is similar, structurally speaking to Sekiro -- Levels to grind, but mostly it's a boss battle game.

However, Cuphead knows what sort of game it is and how to make this sort of game, fun for the player. Bosses are tough, but load times are quick so you can get back into the fight instantly. The bosses and levels are also visually inventive and give you a reward simply by viewing them. It's very entertaining. The controls are also very responsive.

Sekiro though, isn't interested in response times, and it seems to think it's doing something special with all it'sgameplay mechanics.
It hides a continue under a 'resurrection' mechanic, even though it's blatantly just a standard continue -- and it puts a layer of quirk over almost every mechanic to try and convince you it's doing something new -- But it's not.

These new mechanics barely add anything. Hidden Aid? Who cares about that? Why would you spend time even developing that feature?
Most of the new systems are like this and have very little practical use. Just a lot of clutter which amounts to little.

A lot of these sorts of mechanics were tried and tested back in the 80's then either disregarded or improved upon. Here From Software ignore all the progress that's been made blending and balancing those sorts of gameplay problems and they just leave them hanging, hiding them under a shroud of 'difficulty'. It's pretty lazy. There are so many loose ends here.
The challenge for From (or any decent company) is to update their systems (ie the camera) and make them work for a modern audience, not just leave them rotting in the past.


To their credit though, the game is fun, and if you like bragging about your prowess even more fun as it seems to be designed for leaderboards and to stoke that audience.
If you're into games mainly for the moment to moment gameplay, there's so much that's broken here, that it's distracting. The game is good, but it's not that good. To me it feels like a Demon Souls... Something that if it's refined will be superb.
Everyone knows this is just sour grapes after your prior melty over the first boss, fyi
 
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royox

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I disagree, Owl in Ashina castle and Hirata Estate was much harder. Genichiro was actually normal compared to the true hard bosses imo.
I agree that we disagree :) , for me Owl was much easyer because he didn't have any cheap attack like the "backjump+3 arrows" (insta kill if you get caught) or a combo that can end in a low slash or a charge giving the player milliseconds to react properly. Also every time Owl uses that smoke skill that disables healing you can Double Sichiro his ass for incredible ammounts of Posture damage. Maybe it was just me but I found Owl super easy (3-5 trys on first time playing) against the +50 times I wiped against fucking Genichiro . Still have to see the betrayal ending so maybe I'm wrong :3
 
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Farming exp to get the last three skills is ass. Really ass. Who thought this was a good idea?

I'm almost done with the game after that. Just have to beat the last boss one more time to get the final ending.
 
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So I'm on NG+ and I didn't even realize there was a path to the well (where you start the game) near the Ashina Reservoir. I don't think it's even supposed to be a "hidden area" I just didn't notice it first time around cause it's a ledge next to tall grass making it hard to notice. It's funny cuz I spent ages on my first playthrough trying to remember where that place even was lol
 

Ivellios

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I agree that we disagree :) , for me Owl was much easyer because he didn't have any cheap attack like the "backjump+3 arrows" (insta kill if you get caught) or a combo that can end in a low slash or a charge giving the player milliseconds to react properly. Also every time Owl uses that smoke skill that disables healing you can Double Sichiro his ass for incredible ammounts of Posture damage. Maybe it was just me but I found Owl super easy (3-5 trys on first time playing) against the +50 times I wiped against fucking Genichiro . Still have to see the betrayal ending so maybe I'm wrong :3
Yeah completely opposite for me, i beat Genichiro fairly quick without so much trouble yet i died so much to Owl. The problem is he has a really high HP and Posture, so it is a battle of attrition and patience and its was so hard for me to find an opening to attack him.

it doesn't matter if you suck or not if you succeed at the game ;-)

i have 116 hours in and am still at the last boss. never give up! never surrender!
You can do it! I died so much for this boss, but as you start figuring him out you see you are slowly progressing towards finishing him.

Taking out plenty of his HP with Phantom Kunai on his third phase (where he gets the lance) really helped me get to last phase faster, where i won by using lightining counter.

What i really recommend no matter what is to learn how to do lightning counter for his last phase, it is a game changer. I was only able to defeat him because of this.

Another tip i could give is, if you see his charging area wind ability, either use umbrella to avoid damage or jump on his head.
 

Danjin44

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The big difference between Owl and Genichiro is that Owl has higher Posture so it has more opening for HP damage but Genichiro has low posture so it much more efficient to aggressively attack and to try deflect his attacks.
 
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royox

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Nov 3, 2013
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So I'm on NG+ and I didn't even realize there was a path to the well (where you start the game) near the Ashina Reservoir. I don't think it's even supposed to be a "hidden area" I just didn't notice it first time around cause it's a ledge next to tall grass making it hard to notice. It's funny cuz I spent ages on my first playthrough trying to remember where that place even was lol
Heh, In NG+ I discovered the "Endless hole" I was supposed to jump to reach Ashina's Deeps on my first game. Seems I reached that zone after getting in a cave where a giant white snake was guarding a sanctuary, behind the snake was MY entrance to that area lol.