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Severe Input Lag for Xbox One Backwards Compatibility Games?
- Thread starter Unit24
- Start date
pawel86ck
Banned
Who's talking from experience here? I mean, besides me who still have xbox 360 + wired gamepad + gaming monitor (minimal input lag), and xbox X side by side? If I would not have xbox360 now, I would not remember how gears of war played on xbox 360 years ago. I have tried BC and it altered my experience with the same games, but it's not extreme input lag, so I'm sure many people can miss it withoug good point of reference.
I'm very sensitive to this input lag issue. I remember gears of war 4 on xbox X, most people have said game has no input lag problems on X (and I bet probably still most people think that way), but I immediately knew game has input lag problems. Not so long ago one of gears of war fans have made detailed input lag analysis from that game, and Indeed I was right and it wasnt just placebo, gears of war 4 has much higher input lag even comapred with gears of war ultimate, 5.1 lag frames on average in gears of war 4, and 2.8 lag frames in gears of war ultimate (and that's also 30fps game).
I can trust myself (I'm very experienced gears of war gamer and I'm very sensitive to input lag) but I can also trust professional input lag tests, but for now besides "Drift0r" no one else want to do it. And the thing is Drift0r analysis from 2017 concluded BC indeed adds input lag, and he also pointed out problems with new gamepad. This is exactly my experience also, so for now I HAVE ABSOLUTELY EVERY REASON TO THINK I'M CORRECT. For me the difference is to big, it altered my experience in the same games, so it's not placebo for sure.
I'm very sensitive to this input lag issue. I remember gears of war 4 on xbox X, most people have said game has no input lag problems on X (and I bet probably still most people think that way), but I immediately knew game has input lag problems. Not so long ago one of gears of war fans have made detailed input lag analysis from that game, and Indeed I was right and it wasnt just placebo, gears of war 4 has much higher input lag even comapred with gears of war ultimate, 5.1 lag frames on average in gears of war 4, and 2.8 lag frames in gears of war ultimate (and that's also 30fps game).
I can trust myself (I'm very experienced gears of war gamer and I'm very sensitive to input lag) but I can also trust professional input lag tests, but for now besides "Drift0r" no one else want to do it. And the thing is Drift0r analysis from 2017 concluded BC indeed adds input lag, and he also pointed out problems with new gamepad. This is exactly my experience also, so for now I HAVE ABSOLUTELY EVERY REASON TO THINK I'M CORRECT. For me the difference is to big, it altered my experience in the same games, so it's not placebo for sure.
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pawel86ck
Banned
can you play (like me) the same games for (comparison purposes) right now on real xbox 360 + wired gamepad + gaming monitor (low input lag display)? The thing is, I see that input lag issue, because I have good point of reference.
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Calibos
Member
Maybe this is the issue here. If he can't does that invalidate him saying he isn't having the issue? Are you and some others hyper-sensitive to the issue and looking for the issue?
Just saying that maybe many, many people don't feel the issue like you do because they aren't scrutinizing it so insanely? Many of the comments here are so negative on the BC service...."MS doesn't care about it" or "Its just a marketing checkbox"...I think this kind of sentiment is crazy. They have continually updated and improved the emulator...I am sure this is on their radar. I have said before, they are paying a whole team to work on this....If it weren't important to them, would they be spending money on it....? No. Way.
As for the actual issue, it is there. I agree that it exists. It is also existing on every platform across a whole bunch of games...PC probably has the fewest examples because of processing power and higher framerates, but the issue has been there since the beginning of gaming. It isn't exclusive and is probably harder to fix when emulation of hardware and software is in the mix.
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hiphopcr
Member
grfunkulus
Banned
I can't say for certain, it's been a while, but my Gears of War 3 BC copy feels like it runs and plays pretty bad (coming out of Gears of War UE). Which is a shame because that and RDR were my two most anticipated BC games, so here's to hoping some tech wizards at Microsoft can get RDR running at a good clip on Xbox One if it actually officially comes out.
I didn't bother with Halo Reach but I was looking forward to it being great too, sad to see the tech issues with that port over as well.
Halo Reach ran a little better but the input lag ruined the way the game felt (forget about playing the competitive multiplayer)...really wish that game would get a remake/remaster...if it were 4k/60 I would consider buying an Xbox One X for it...Halo 5 upgrades are nice but I don't think prettying up that game could save the lack of creativity or visual polish regarding the map design
maybe that's your problem. comparing a wired controller with a wireless.
But I know what you mean. Mass Effect 1 was a mess at the beginning. I could never get this hacking puzzels correct on my xb1 because the controller inputs were totally async. But as far as I know, after some patches it got a whole lot better.
Another game that I can't play via BC is Southpark stick of truth. I didn't try it again since. There were these "events" in the fight when you must press a button. I was never able to press them at the correct time at my xb1, but on the xb360 it worked like a charm. But I don't know if this has been fixed, it was directly after the game was playable via bc.
But in other games, I had no problem. E.g. Fable (1,2,3) had always a gigantic input lag even on xb360. But I don't know if it got better or worse.
In most shooter-based games you won't notice because of auto-aiming.
pawel86ck
Banned
I'm using wired transfer on both consoles (you can easily connect usb cable to "elite" or even standard xbox one controller)
It's not like I dont belive him, but without good point of reference is impossible to say if game experience is altered in any way. If I would not have that point of reference for myself, I WOULD NEVER NOTICE ANY ISSUES WITH BC GAMES, becase Input lag is not extreme and that's the problem, because it's easy to overlook it that way. The same with subtle differences with controllers, xbox one gamepad is different, but not totally different, and Drift0r had to make dailed analysis (in his COD input lag video) in order to conclude xbox one gamepad has different acceleration settings. On top of that I'm gears of war fan. I have played these games for many years, and I have trained my aiming skills in this game to the certain level, so for me it's even easier to spot differences.
I play on PC, PS4P and xboxX. I dont hate microsoft and it's not my intention, to post negative comments towards microsoft. I care about my console (I have bought xbox X, so how could I hate it?) but when I see issues on any of my gaming platforms, I speak about them BECAUSE I HOPE THESE ISSUES CAN BE RESOLVED. Companies like microsoft can improve and add new things, but only when people like me notice issues first. If all xbox or playstation users would be xbox/playstation fanboys, who never talk about issues, these companies would NEVER FIX OR IMPROVE ANYTHING.
BC is amazing feature, and personally I bought xbox X mainly because microsoft have advertised BC feature so much. I simply liked that idea of playing my favorite games like gears of war games at much better quality and performance. But BC feature need some additional work, because when I playing game like gears of war on xbox I expect to have similar or better experience, not worse. Some people suggest forced vsync is to blame, so maybe microsoft should give us a choice to turn Vsync off. The same with controllers, for them it's not a big problem to enable xbox 360 gamepad support (at least wired gamepad should work without problems). That way everyone would be happy
.
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pawel86ck
Banned
And some people just look to ignore all problems because they like certain company too much.
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ProBusinessgamer
Member
There is no severe issues, just another xbox bash thread.
TheWatcher
Banned
It is fairly hit and miss, but it has been significantly improved upon across the board. Some games feel the same, others have slight lag. I feel like the Gears games have made some strides, but they aren't quite perfect. I don't understand why BC gets so much flak here, it is quite literally one of the most consumer friendly features on any console, and if Game Pass picks up I suspect more and more devs will be eager to lisence more games from the 360 and Xbox libraries.
I could sit here and bitch and moan about some of the games looking blurry, but in a lot of instances other games are vastly improved. The feature has some drawbacks, but the good points almost certainly outweigh the cons (I mean are there any?).
My only criticism about the feature is that games are released too slowly and there should be a greater emphasis put on fan favourites. There are still top-rated games that have been leading the voting polls since the feature was put into service in late 2015. It seems like for the first time in a long time (since 2005) Microsoft has a solid plan for hardcore gamers. For me personally, the Xbox One having access to so far approximately one third/fourth of the Xbox 360 library puts it ahead of the Playstation 4.
Sometimes I swear that there are customers that simply accept mediocrity. Maybe the Playstation 4 has a significantly better line up of exclusive games, but as a machine the X is gamer's dream. Too bad it doesn't play Nioh, but hopefully it will play Ninja Gaiden 2 soon.
I could sit here and bitch and moan about some of the games looking blurry, but in a lot of instances other games are vastly improved. The feature has some drawbacks, but the good points almost certainly outweigh the cons (I mean are there any?).
My only criticism about the feature is that games are released too slowly and there should be a greater emphasis put on fan favourites. There are still top-rated games that have been leading the voting polls since the feature was put into service in late 2015. It seems like for the first time in a long time (since 2005) Microsoft has a solid plan for hardcore gamers. For me personally, the Xbox One having access to so far approximately one third/fourth of the Xbox 360 library puts it ahead of the Playstation 4.
Sometimes I swear that there are customers that simply accept mediocrity. Maybe the Playstation 4 has a significantly better line up of exclusive games, but as a machine the X is gamer's dream. Too bad it doesn't play Nioh, but hopefully it will play Ninja Gaiden 2 soon.
ProBusinessgamer
Member
Or they cry because they dislike a company too much.
pawel86ck
Banned
I can see clear improvements performance wise, the same with picture quality. So indeed these are possitives, and it's not like everything is wrong with BC. That feature simply need some more work.
Evidences suggest otherwise, there are to many threads across the net in regards to BC issues that I have pointed out, and even one detailed video analysis totally confirmis exactly what I have wrote. On the other hand there's NOT A SINGLE VIDEO ANALYSIS THAT WOULD DENY BC ISSUES, only opinions of people who dont even bother to test xbox 360 and BC on xbox O/X side by side. Do I need to remind you gears of war 4 example? Most people ignore input lag issue in this game, YET detailed analysis clearly shows MUCH higer input lag even compared to gears of war ultimate. If digital foundry would make detailed analysis of BC input lag (in gears of war 2 for example), and they will conclude game has indeed big input lage, what you will do? Deny it?
I'm new here on neogaf. If what you say it's indeed true, than maybe there's a reason for it, and xbox simply have a lot problems that you try to ignore, while other users hope microsoft will fix their issues (so they simply speak about them).
What's funny, many people on various sites call me xbox fanboy because most of the time I'm pointing out possitives in regards to xbox X. Yet when I finally talk about problems, then I'm xbox hater
. Well, it looks like people dont like honest opinions, because when you post opinions like that, you will be always attacked by all kinds of fanboys. Whem you will see problems on PC platform, PC fanboy will attack you. When you will see problems on xbox, xbox fanboys will attack you. The same with sony platform.
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Well, a lot of people here seem to be missing your points and interpreting the thread as some sort of bash on Xbox or back compat generally. That all (or the great majority of ) available 360 games are now better through back compatibility by the objective metrics of framerate and image quality (on Xbox one x at least, with 16x af) does not mean they aren't inferior by the objective metric of input lag, which I would believe is a real issue given the various discussions online about it. That it may not constitute a perceptible difference to some or most people doesn't mean it can't be an area for further improvement.
I think as you point out, it's a combination of the emulation process being used and the controller issue. Some actual testing needs to be done.
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BubblegumCrisis
Member
then you mustn't be too sensitive then, because the implementation of forced triple buffered vsync on all backwards compatibility titles guarantees the bare minimum of a frame or more of input latency. Just performing single frame links in Street Fighter IV and Virtua Fighter 5FS, its clear input timing has has to be altered slightly to be performed correctly when played via xbox one emulation over native 360 hardware.
you'll be perfectly fine. Timing windows for commands in those games are very generous.
In fact, the X1X versions are preferable over 360 versions, due to now having consistent framerates, meaning frame drops no longer eating your inputs anymore.
Oh come on, the addition of 1 frame in 60fps titles as seen in VF5:FS being the result of forced V-Sync is entirey normal, that's to be expected and for me it's not even percievable. Admittedly I'm not a pro at those games but even Oneida who was/is like the biggest VF fan on GAF and bought an Xbox One solely due to VF5:FS had no issue with it. Also.. not every game on 360 ran without V-sync, and in 30fps titles it matters even less.
Given the choice I'd rather have tearing removed than deal with it to enjoy the "luxury" of an inpercievable reduction in latency. pretty sure the tearing is a LOT more noticeable
Also as you pointed out yourself, the addition of higher and far more consistant framerates helps quell latency as frame time spikes are often completely eliminated.No, what we're talking about here is latency that supposedly makes it completely unplayable, something that simply doesn't exist. So I will reiterate, I am sensitive to input lag and chose my current panel based entirely around that. I will notice any if it's untoward and effects gameplay, and I am yet to notice a single instance when playing my 360 or through the virtual machine on Xbox One/X where percievable input lag exists over the original.
Jigsaah
Gold Member
You sure this is not your TV? It seems like if it's on every game its either your TV or the box itself.
pawel86ck
Banned
I game on gaming monitor (no input lag problem at all), but I also have 3 HDTV's ranging from 16ms to 30ms, that's the lowest input lag numbers on HDTV's. But my HDTV's are not a problem, because xbox 360 games are more responsive on the same display.
What's interesting, all Gears Of War 2 BC gameplays on xbox X looks the same to me, and people are clearly struggeling with aiming in this game. Their aiming is slow and on top of that they have no precision at all. I have the same feeling on my xbox X playing this game, while on xbox 360 I can aim without problems like that.
When it comes to xbox 360 controller, I have found out this interesting workaround (adapter) to get it work on xbox X:
http://cronusmax.com/cross-over-gaming/
I will try to get that adapter and then post my impressions.
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MaximusPayne
Member
pawel86ck
Banned
30fps games have higher input lag compared to 60fps games, and if you add additional lag (and vsync adds very noticeable input lag), then 30fps game with already high input lag will be even more laggy. I can live with vsync at 60fps, but at 30fps games vsync bother me. And BTW. why are you using grey text, something like that should be not allowed on this site.Oh come on, the addition of 1 frame in 60fps titles as seen in VF5:FS being the result of forced V-Sync is entirey normal, that's to be expected and for me it's not even percievable. Admittedly I'm not a pro at those games but even Oneida who was/is like the biggest VF fan on GAF and bought an Xbox One solely due to VF5:FS had no issue with it. Also.. not every game on 360 ran without V-sync, and in 30fps titles it matters even less.
Given the choice I'd rather have tearing removed than deal with it to enjoy the "luxury" of an inpercievable reduction in latency. pretty sure the tearing is a LOT more noticeable
No, what we're talking about here is latency that supposedly makes it completely unplayable, something that simply doesn't exist. So I will reiterate, I am sensitive to input lag and chose my current panel based entirely around that. I will notice any if it's untoward and effects gameplay, and I am yet to notice a single instance when playing my 360 or through the virtual machine on Xbox One/X where percievable input lag exists over the original.
I'm not original poster ("Unit24" member have created this thread), but speaking for myself, I'm playing always with game mode on.
And speaking about people who likes their company too much, maybe you will like that video
That guy share his honest opinion in regards to gaming community calling it fanboys community. People like me, who game on many different platforms can see it very clearly. I game on PC (3770K + STRIX 1080ti), PS4P, XBOX X, and no matter what I will say, people will always call me fanboy
. When I'm speaking about xbox X possitives, PC guys will call me xbox fanboy, but when I will notice some issues on xbox (like for example in this input lag thread) then I'm called xbox X hater. Basically if you share honest opinion in regards to ANYTHING, there will be some people, who will not like that and they will try their best in order to discredit what have to say.And here's some guy playing gears of war 2 on xbox 360. His movements and aiming looks much better compared to that previous gameplay on xbox X. I'm very convinved that BC issue is real, placebo would not make such a drastic difference, for me it's like playing different game (and I supposed to play the same game). VG Tech told me, they would love to test BC input lag, but they don't have equipment for that unfortunately. Right now the only person who have tested input lag in BC games is "Drift0r", and he concluded that BC adds 2 frames of input lag. and it's enough to bother experienced gamer like me.
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MaximusPayne
Member
I was actually referring to OP...they might not have game mode "on" and it might not be as noticeable with X1 games on their tv.
Not here to get in depth lectures on gaming politics. You brought up the liking/disliking companies because some people didn't really see the big lag you speak of.
You might be putting a tad too much into this...
kingwingin
Member
Nx gamer did input lag test and the one is quite worse than other systems to begin with. I personally dont notice it
pawel86ck
Banned
In standard xbox O/X games this issue is not nearly as big, although there are some games like gears of war 4, where input lag bother me and I have indeed noticed it. Besides xbox X I have also played that game on PC, my 1080ti runs GOW4 at 60fps at 4K, but event at 30fps cap that game is clearly more responsive compared to xbox version. Later on people on gearsofwar forums have tested input lag in gears of war ultimate and gears of war 4, and I was right, because gears of war 4 on xbox has 5 frames input lag, and even gears of war ultimate is not nearly as laggy.
I bet if someone would make gears of war 4 input lag thread here on neogaf, most xbox owners will say they dont see any input lag issue in this game
(even as high as 5 frames). I was right when it comes to gears of war 4 input lag issue, and I know I'm also right now when it comes to BC input lag on my xbox X. What's interesting, I cant notice input lag on xbox classic emulation on xbox 360 hardware, so maybe indeed forced vsync on all xbox 360 BC games is to blame (and it's not emulation issue itself). If original game on 360 was not using vsync, it should also not use it on xbox X BC because it alters game experience (at least microsoft should give us options to play 360 games without it).
thelastword
Banned
The reason you don't get much coverage of it is quite clear. DF who got first dibs and an arrangement with MS on the Scorpio reveal will never reveal such... All you got on 360 BC was a video on Oblivion and some other titles (Gears, GTA4, Mirrors Edge, AC1, Halo3, Fallout 3)..Pretty much all these titles had judder issues, but Leadbetter made an excuse for all of them. Some of the titles even renders extra frames over the 30fps cap and that tends to introduce extra judder too.
So vysnc engaged on all titles, but with judder, rez quadrupled from 360 code and framerate still tanks on the XBONEX. We're talking 23fps in Oblivion in the opening level and dips and judder in all the other titles, even some games look different, like Mirror's edge looking a bit different from the original aesthetic. Missing details and lod issues in Fallout 3, DOF effect all but diminished in Gears 3 etc....
These were the 7 titles at launch. I'm not even sure MS is focused on this anymore. I bet you the people who were making all the noise of how important 360 BC was and how a gamechanger it was, never even loaded up these titles or even cared much about these older titles anyway. I guess it was just a point for them to make, but the lack of coverage on this problem is headscratching because DF are sure to call Sony out on PRO titles having worse performance than vanilla at launch and a beta firmware update (with supersampling) not having all the features that the XBONEX has in that regard.....Prior to this, all I heard was the good things about MS BC, but not much of the bad which is actually affecting the genuine few who actually play these BC games in the first place.
So vysnc engaged on all titles, but with judder, rez quadrupled from 360 code and framerate still tanks on the XBONEX. We're talking 23fps in Oblivion in the opening level and dips and judder in all the other titles, even some games look different, like Mirror's edge looking a bit different from the original aesthetic. Missing details and lod issues in Fallout 3, DOF effect all but diminished in Gears 3 etc....
These were the 7 titles at launch. I'm not even sure MS is focused on this anymore. I bet you the people who were making all the noise of how important 360 BC was and how a gamechanger it was, never even loaded up these titles or even cared much about these older titles anyway. I guess it was just a point for them to make, but the lack of coverage on this problem is headscratching because DF are sure to call Sony out on PRO titles having worse performance than vanilla at launch and a beta firmware update (with supersampling) not having all the features that the XBONEX has in that regard.....Prior to this, all I heard was the good things about MS BC, but not much of the bad which is actually affecting the genuine few who actually play these BC games in the first place.
pawel86ck
Banned
Great post. thank you.
But I still hope MS will improve BC, on microsoft site some people are already talking about vsync
https://xbox.uservoice.com/forums/2...-disabling-of-the-double-buffer-v-sync-for-ba
and xbox 360 controller support
https://xbox.uservoice.com/forums/3...roller-support-to-xbox-one?page=1&per_page=20
Guys even if you dont care about BC feature, please consider upvoting these suggestions, because then there's a change MS will implement these features
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A while back I read that 360 games on external drives tended to perform worse. Once I moved the games to the internal, input lag was reduced significantly. I noticed it immediately with Black Ops 2.
Right now, any 360 game I want to play regularly is installed on the internal drive.
Right now, any 360 game I want to play regularly is installed on the internal drive.
pawel86ck
Banned
I have bought cronusmax adapter and using xbox 360 controller I can finally enjoy playing x360 games on xbox X1X (at this point I'm not even planing to use my ELITE controller, it's hard to aim at anything). Even Gears of war 2 is a blast right now although maybe they have fixed something with 4K patch as well because game is ultra responsive right now. Long story short, I'm happy now , but I would be even happier if MS would enable x360 controller support without the need for expensive adapters.
, but I would be even happier if MS would enable x360 controller support without the need for expensive adapters.
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Night.Ninja
Banned
I’ve been playing crackdown just fine with no noticeable lag
Every backwards compatible game I've compared to the original has had what feels to me like 1-2 frames additional lag (Hydro Thunder Hurricane, Super Meat Boy, Pac Man CE, Lode Runner, Geometry Wars, Hard Corps Uprising, Panzer Dragoon Orta). Technically I'm not sure there're more they could do within the contraints of emulation. The NES and SNES Classic also add at least 1-2 frames, as do all PC and Android emulators.
ilfait
Member
There are ways to improve it further, but the lag inherent to software emulation is always going to be an issue.
Son_of_Zardoz
Banned
Another fine SonyPony post there fella, great job. OP actually has legit concerns but naturally you can't help but shit this thread up also.
That being said I can't really say that I have noticed the lag, but I haven't played a whole lot (mainly RDR, Crimson Skies, & Crackdown) as I haven't had time to play much of anything the past few months. Don't know if I am particularly sensitive to the issue either to begin with.
Leonard Washington
Banned
Most of the original 360 BC with OG titles ran like ass anyway back the first time round so it appears that MS just load games up to the title screen and say "Close enough" before moving onto the next one. Sure some titles were clearly optimized and they'd spent time on the wrapper but a lot of them were hampered by really bad framerates and other glitches.