• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Should Disney hold Kathleen Kennedy responsible for the fall of Star Wars brand?

Contica

Member
Feb 1, 2016
1,104
708
400
I wasn't going to reply to you, but this is just absurd. Relevant excerpt from the article:

The casting of women in the lead roles of fantasy films like “Rogue One,” “The Force Awakens” and “Ghostbusters” has proved unexpectedly provocative, drawing the ire of those few frustrated fans who call it a concession to political correctness.

Ms. Jones sidestepped this issue, saying that “we wanted the audience to relate to Jyn as a person, whether you’re a boy or a girl, a man or a woman.”

Kathleen Kennedy, the president of Lucasfilm, the studio that makes the “Star Wars” films, was more direct about whether she felt she had to placate these critics.

“I have a responsibility to the company that I work with,” she said. “I don’t feel that I have a responsibility to cater in some way.”

She added, “I would never just seize on saying, ‘Well, this is a franchise that’s appealed primarily to men for many, many years, and therefore I owe men something.’”


How does Kennedy make the connection between disgruntled fans who view the placement of females in leading roles as synonymous to those who view and stand opposed to a "concession to political correctness"? Fans having a problem with a female lead due to sexism is entirely different from someone disgruntled because they believe doing so is conceding to political correctness or an agenda. Those are two different arguments. Yet Kennedy immediately conflates the two, and then jumps to the conclusion that the problem is men feeling ostracized, threatened, (or pick whatever Leftist narrative you please) and that's she's under no responsibility to cater to them.

Where is she getting the evidence that fans cited in this article even wanted this aside from pulling this belief out of her behind to suit her ideological worldview? One in which she's held no compunction in demonstrating explicitly in using this franchise as a vessel to push it. Sure, I've no doubt there are more than a few men who feel neglected due to female leads, but that's wholly irrelevant to the point Kennedy was initially confronted with before she conflated two very different issues. And I think when taken in context, as you love to preach, seeing her "the force is female" t-shirt, statements and whatnot, it's a safe bet to say that yes, there is an agenda (I think the term political correctness was misused in the question) going on here.

If anything, this article you cite does Kennedy no favors as it exemplifies what is driving her motivations in the first place.
You're making word salad based on a couple of quoted sentences from an interview. We don't know what questions she was asked before she said this, so we have no idea how she makes any connection. All we know is that this is a response to some fans not digging female leads.

There's the main difference between me and you "Kennedy hates men" types. You spin your own tales around something someone said that you don't like, while I just take it for what it is. She says she doesn't feel like she owes men something.

HOW IS THIS CONTROVERSIAL?!

Does a musician owe his fans something? Does he need to make "breakout album 2.0" instead of doing what he wants? What kind of an asinine idea is it that fans are owed anything, in any circumstance?

Anyways. My only point here is that the quote angry fanboys like to throw around doesn't actually say what you claim it says. Whether she means it or not is irrelevant. We don't know how she thinks, so stop pretending like you're a psychic. The quote doesn't say what you claim it says. Period.

It would be nice if we could drop this stupid quote that just reinforces that Star Wars fans are idiots because they don't know how to read well, and discuss actual issues with Sat Wars under Kennedy, of which there are many.

But this "Kennedy hates men" narrative is only going to solidify the divide. The angry numbnuts who think she hates men will rage on, while the rest of the world will take the whole thing as confirmation that Star Wars fans kinda need to grow up and get a life.
 

Evil Calvin

Member
Aug 23, 2017
345
209
295
The latest film isn't terrible. The recent trilogy is miles better than the prequels (watch them again and you will see). I think the biggest issue is they didn't seem to have a trilogy roadmap....unlike the Avengers Endgame movies. It's as if they really didn't have a clear plan from the beginning. Still.......not bad movies.....but you can tell they didn't have a complete plan.
 

#Phonepunk#

Gold Member
Sep 4, 2018
8,527
11,807
695
38
The recent trilogy is miles better than the prequels (watch them again and you will see)
i disagree and the ST has only made me appreciate the PT more and more as time goes on. on rewatch the prequels held up immensely. they are just stuffed, bursting with imagination, pulp adventure set pieces, baroque art design, tons of new characters, galactic worldbuilding, genuine thrills, etc. there is SO MUCH George gave us with the prequels that comparing it to the budget made hack a thons of the sequels is almost insulting. the ST is table scraps. fuck that, it is a photo copy of table scraps. PT is like the world's largest salad bar. yeah you might not like some things in it but there's more than enough to enjoy.

people underestimate how big a deal the prequels were. they revolutionized filmmaking. yeah people will joke that AOTC looks worse than the Clone Wars tv show released years later THATS BECAUSE TECHNOLOGY HAS TO BE DEVELOPED FIRST. it is as if people don't understand the concept of time. yes it looks "worse" like a N64 looks worse than a Switch. it is earlier technology. funny enough i see people crap on AOTC for "looking like a cartoon" yet of course they love the Clone Wars, an actual cartoon. it's so weird the media snobbery that goes on, you see Rian Johnson calling fan's idea of Luke "a video game character" as if video games are a lower form of media. this kind of snobbery was not in SW at the start, Lucas himself ran a comic book store, he was an OG geek. without a doubt had videogames been a thing at the time they would have been as massively influential on his work as the Fourth World comics were. as far as the prequels, every movie nowadays is made the way it is because George made the prequels. all the green screen CGI spectacle, George pioneered that shit. it is absurd to suggest anything otherwise.
 
Last edited:

HarryKS

Member
Jan 24, 2010
3,376
614
905
Watched Episode 1 yesterday. Gets better with age. Jar-Jar Binks never bothered me. The lightsaber battles did. The fight between Maul and the jedi knights still doesn't make sense.

There's a lot of stuff that makes sense in The Phantom Menace otherwise. The politicking is slightly boring but grounded, midichlorians as an indicator of your propensity to tap into the force rather than an indicator of your power level, the pod race, the jedi council's hubris, Qui Gon Jin being the best jedi. Had he been Anakin's master, things would have been different.
 
Last edited:

Afro Republican

GAF>INTERNET>GAF, BITCHES
Aug 24, 2016
6,072
4,252
1,040
Star Wars was already falling, Disney just finished it off. Also yes, Disney, not one person, DISNEY finished it off, they knew what was happening and had input so her and all those on top of her involved should be responsible.

Making 3 sequels each worse than the Robocop reboot takes some accomplishment.
 

#Phonepunk#

Gold Member
Sep 4, 2018
8,527
11,807
695
38
Watched Episode 1 yesterday. Gets better with age. Jar-Jar Binks never bothered me. The lightsaber battles did. The fight between Maul and the jedi knights still doesn't make sense.
the sword fight coreography in all the prequels is very well done. i recommend Shadiversity's analysis videos. there are no CGI'd out daggers like in the Last Jedi or people coming in super early and having to change their swings, the actors and stunt men have all rehearsed enough, the battles are well thought out and realistic, despite the enhanced athletics of Force users.

i always liked the one-upping of Force Powers, it felt in line with the OT. if Luke was doing super jumps in ESB as a Jedi in training, it makes sense that full Jedi masters in the full bloom of the Old Republic would be pulling all kinds of tricks. Qui Gon is a great character, and IMO reason enough to start with TPM, with Anakin as that young, to have this story, and Qui Gon playing almost an Obi Wan role to Obi Wan himself, while Obi Wan is introduced as the mentor to young Anakin. 3 generations of Jedi rather than 2, this is an interesting twist on the usual student-master pairing.


Shadiversity did a cool video exploring the feasibility of lightsaber combat. there is a lot to consider, the various possibilities of Force-fueled lighstaber combat. the films obviously have to make certain choices for dramatic effect. he found that the technical limitations of sabers in the OT/PT made for more realistic battles, for if a Jedi could shut it on and off rapidly, that combined with their Force reflexes, they would be constantly doing this, every time a saber almost collides with another, you would shut it off, point the hilt directly at a vulnerable spot, and turn it on again. lightsabers didn't work that way in the PT/OT but they do now, alongside giving visions and talking to people.

they can flick them rapidly on/off in TLJ, and while visually cool, it raises the question of how come no one has ever done that. keep in mind the saber used is Luke's old saber, which he got from Obi Wan, so it is quite old technology. in general the PT maintains a physical realism to it's lightsaber combat while upping the athleticism from the OT and it's one of the highlights. ST takes things to cartoonish OP heights, whereas the OT/PT still has roots in genre swordfighting tradition.
 
Last edited:

KingGhidorah

Member
Jul 28, 2019
321
840
365
You're making word salad based on a couple of quoted sentences from an interview. We don't know what questions she was asked before she said this, so we have no idea how she makes any connection. All we know is that this is a response to some fans not digging female leads.

There's the main difference between me and you "Kennedy hates men" types. You spin your own tales around something someone said that you don't like, while I just take it for what it is. She says she doesn't feel like she owes men something.

HOW IS THIS CONTROVERSIAL?!

Does a musician owe his fans something? Does he need to make "breakout album 2.0" instead of doing what he wants? What kind of an asinine idea is it that fans are owed anything, in any circumstance?

Anyways. My only point here is that the quote angry fanboys like to throw around doesn't actually say what you claim it says. Whether she means it or not is irrelevant. We don't know how she thinks, so stop pretending like you're a psychic. The quote doesn't say what you claim it says. Period.

It would be nice if we could drop this stupid quote that just reinforces that Star Wars fans are idiots because they don't know how to read well, and discuss actual issues with Sat Wars under Kennedy, of which there are many.

But this "Kennedy hates men" narrative is only going to solidify the divide. The angry numbnuts who think she hates men will rage on, while the rest of the world will take the whole thing as confirmation that Star Wars fans kinda need to grow up and get a life.
stop putting this on us male fans you dipshit!!!

She started it, until she backtracked from her previous comment, it stays so, she's the one dividing the demographics
 
Last edited:

Contica

Member
Feb 1, 2016
1,104
708
400
stop putting this on us male fans you dipshit!!!

She started it, until she backtracked from her previous comment, it stays so, she's the one dividing the demographics
I understand that it upsets you that I point out the Death Star sized holes in your argument, but alas, I don't care about your feelings.

What I do care about is how you managed to boil this down to me putting it on "you" male fans? How did she start this when the quote you keep misunderstanding was a response to the behavior of certain fans?

I am a fan, after all. So what am I? Hating myself?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: sol_bad

Darkmakaimura

Member
Dec 12, 2008
11,662
622
1,345
fortune-summoners.wikia.com
The latest film isn't terrible. The recent trilogy is miles better than the prequels (watch them again and you will see). I think the biggest issue is they didn't seem to have a trilogy roadmap....unlike the Avengers Endgame movies. It's as if they really didn't have a clear plan from the beginning. Still.......not bad movies.....but you can tell they didn't have a complete plan.
I did. Couple weeks ago I marathoned all SW movies except TLJ and Solo.

I still like the prequels better. So much I love about them. Only have a few issues with them.

The ST is just average. Rise of Skywalker is by far the best and a lot of that has to do with bringing Palps back.
 

gatti-man

Member
Aug 30, 2010
8,207
276
815
40
i disagree and the ST has only made me appreciate the PT more and more as time goes on. on rewatch the prequels held up immensely. they are just stuffed, bursting with imagination, pulp adventure set pieces, baroque art design, tons of new characters, galactic worldbuilding, genuine thrills, etc. there is SO MUCH George gave us with the prequels that comparing it to the budget made hack a thons of the sequels is almost insulting. the ST is table scraps. fuck that, it is a photo copy of table scraps. PT is like the world's largest salad bar. yeah you might not like some things in it but there's more than enough to enjoy.

people underestimate how big a deal the prequels were. they revolutionized filmmaking. yeah people will joke that AOTC looks worse than the Clone Wars tv show released years later THATS BECAUSE TECHNOLOGY HAS TO BE DEVELOPED FIRST. it is as if people don't understand the concept of time. yes it looks "worse" like a N64 looks worse than a Switch. it is earlier technology. funny enough i see people crap on AOTC for "looking like a cartoon" yet of course they love the Clone Wars, an actual cartoon. it's so weird the media snobbery that goes on, you see Rian Johnson calling fan's idea of Luke "a video game character" as if video games are a lower form of media. this kind of snobbery was not in SW at the start, Lucas himself ran a comic book store, he was an OG geek. without a doubt had videogames been a thing at the time they would have been as massively influential on his work as the Fourth World comics were. as far as the prequels, every movie nowadays is made the way it is because George made the prequels. all the green screen CGI spectacle, George pioneered that shit. it is absurd to suggest anything otherwise.
The script in phantom menace and AOTC is fucking atrocious. A film can have everything you describe and still be bad. I have never been able to get a GF to sit through them. Because they have huge glaring flaws unless you’re a fan of Star Wars already.
Atleast the new films I can take the wife to and she won’t walk out or want to kill me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sol_bad

KingGhidorah

Member
Jul 28, 2019
321
840
365
I understand that it upsets you that I point out the Death Star sized holes in your argument, but alas, I don't care about your feelings.

What I do care about is how you managed to boil this down to me putting it on "you" male fans? How did she start this when the quote you keep misunderstanding was a response to the behavior of certain fans?

I am a fan, after all. So what am I? Hating myself?
There's no argument, She did/does alienate SW male fans to pander newer demographic with that comment. The question is would/should Disney hold her responsible for it for the diminishing brand of the franchise
 

prag16

Member
Jul 12, 2012
11,008
2,312
755
Yes. The ST was horrendously mismanaged from the start. She has to bear the plurality of the blame for this (if not outright majority). I don't want her anywhere near the ongoing progression of the franchise.

That said, hell, screw all the Rogue One haters. I love Rogue One. Definitely the best Disney era film.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Joe T.

Contica

Member
Feb 1, 2016
1,104
708
400
There's no argument, She did/does alienate SW male fans to pander newer demographic with that comment. The question is would/should Disney hold her responsible for it for the diminishing brand of the franchise
Sure she did. She alienated a lot of illiterate male fans who misunderstood what she said. Not helped by the quote being spread through the screenrant article instead of the original source, but still.

The literate male fans whoever, do not feel alienated. Why? Because they understand she's not talking about male fans. She's talking about fans who bitch and moan that some girls got leads in Star Wars.

I could try to explain this further, but why bother.

I've got some episodes of Britannia to watch. Ta ta.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sol_bad

Darkmakaimura

Member
Dec 12, 2008
11,662
622
1,345
fortune-summoners.wikia.com
Sure she did. She alienated a lot of illiterate male fans who misunderstood what she said. Not helped by the quote being spread through the screenrant article instead of the original source, but still.

The literate male fans whoever, do not feel alienated. Why? Because they understand she's not talking about male fans. She's talking about fans who bitch and moan that some girls got leads in Star Wars.

I could try to explain this further, but why bother.

I've got some episodes of Britannia to watch. Ta ta.
Meh it's hard to believe she hasn't gone down the 3rd wave feminism route with her "Force is Female" schtick.
 

PanzerAzel

Member
Oct 31, 2019
137
189
235
You're making word salad based on a couple of quoted sentences from an interview. We don't know what questions she was asked before she said this, so we have no idea how she makes any connection. All we know is that this is a response to some fans not digging female leads.

There's the main difference between me and you "Kennedy hates men" types. You spin your own tales around something someone said that you don't like, while I just take it for what it is. She says she doesn't feel like she owes men something.

HOW IS THIS CONTROVERSIAL?!

Does a musician owe his fans something? Does he need to make "breakout album 2.0" instead of doing what he wants? What kind of an asinine idea is it that fans are owed anything, in any circumstance?

Anyways. My only point here is that the quote angry fanboys like to throw around doesn't actually say what you claim it says. Whether she means it or not is irrelevant. We don't know how she thinks, so stop pretending like you're a psychic. The quote doesn't say what you claim it says. Period.

It would be nice if we could drop this stupid quote that just reinforces that Star Wars fans are idiots because they don't know how to read well, and discuss actual issues with Sat Wars under Kennedy, of which there are many.

But this "Kennedy hates men" narrative is only going to solidify the divide. The angry numbnuts who think she hates men will rage on, while the rest of the world will take the whole thing as confirmation that Star Wars fans kinda need to grow up and get a life.
We're going on what we have to work with. You pull up an article, then when someone challenges you on your own game you argue, "we don't know what questions she was asked before she said this, so we have no idea how she makes any connection." That's irrelevant. You are the one who brought it up in defending someone in what was said in it, talking to us about grander context, and then further, using that to launch off on attacks of others. Now that we're operating fully in it, you're now trying to appeal to an even broader, speculative context in her defense when you've been challenged on the grounds you yourself provided.

And you're right, we can't know what she thinks, but we do know what she has said and what we've seen and can take it from there utilizing logic, evidence, inference and deduction. And this isn't complicated at all: when presented with some fans having an issue in seeing an appeal to political correctness in casting female leads, she conflated that immediately with a certain demographic who are disgruntled because they're no longer being catered to.

WHO SAID THAT?!

No one but her, she made that connection, and you then ran off with it, ranting that she doesn't owe anyone anything. I agree? No one ever stated she did and it's not the issue. Men have been fine with female leads in the past continuing up into the present, and nearly all the criticism I've heard directed at Rey is due to writing issues concerning the flawed development of her character.....not because of her gender. Kennedy's reply isn't controversial, but it is very revealing and suggestive of a mindset indicative of, and aligning perfectly with, her "The Force is Female" pic and other statements alluding to such an ideological slant.....one that I'm curious if you even acknowledge. And sorry to disappoint you, it's one that I don't believe suggests misandry. :messenger_grinning_squinting:

Kennedy's a feminist, not a misandrist, and I believe she's using her position of corporate influence to infuse and push an agenda of female representation within this franchise. She doesn't even attempt to hide it. Do I believe that it is coming at the expense of men? Is that really all that unreasonable to suspect when taking everything into account (not just what was stated in this article)? And to pre-empt if you're to come at me again with this nonsense; you can shove your lazy "insecure masculinity, grow a pair" Leftist bullshit insult where the sun don't shine for all I care. Simply because I can recognize something off about the portrayal of inter-sexual relations doesn't mean I'm insecure in my own sexuality. I found the treatment of some characters in TLJ to not only be narratively unjustified and logically unsound, I found their treatment to be far in excess of what was required to establish such a narrative or theme that many TLJ fans love to promote in its defense.

And I'm not in the slightest interested in getting into a TLJ debate once again, that road has been walked many times over.
 
Last edited:
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: plushyp

sol_bad

Member
Jan 17, 2006
3,900
2,171
1,485
But this "Kennedy hates men" narrative is only going to solidify the divide. The angry numbnuts who think she hates men will rage on, while the rest of the world will take the whole thing as confirmation that Star Wars fans kinda need to grow up and get a life.
She has been a producer for decades and producers have more power than a director. In all those movies she has produced, you can certainly tell she hates men. The message in all those films is loud and clear.

Empire of the Sun, Hook, Jurassic Park, Congo, Twister. The list goes on. Strong man hate themes in all her films.

/sarcasm
 

Darkmakaimura

Member
Dec 12, 2008
11,662
622
1,345
fortune-summoners.wikia.com
She has been a producer for decades and producers have more power than a director. In all those movies she has produced, you can certainly tell she hates men. The message in all those films is loud and clear.

Empire of the Sun, Hook, Jurassic Park, Congo, Twister. The list goes on. Strong man hate themes in all her films.

/sarcasm
That was back before "Current Year".
 

oagboghi2

Member
Apr 15, 2018
5,315
6,803
460
She has been a producer for decades and producers have more power than a director. In all those movies she has produced, you can certainly tell she hates men. The message in all those films is loud and clear.

Empire of the Sun, Hook, Jurassic Park, Congo, Twister. The list goes on. Strong man hate themes in all her films.

/sarcasm
So in other words, she should be directly blamed for these movies underperforming and splitting the fanbase.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Darkmakaimura

oagboghi2

Member
Apr 15, 2018
5,315
6,803
460
The prequel trilogy split the fan base too mate.
Which might be relevant if the prequels weren't a decade ago.

And the boxoffice of TLJ, Solo and ROS all underperforming TFA clearly shows she has made it worse. How many more excuses are you going to make for her, or are you going to continue to blame George Lucas?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Darkmakaimura

Darkmakaimura

Member
Dec 12, 2008
11,662
622
1,345
fortune-summoners.wikia.com
Which might be relevant if the prequels weren't a decade ago.

And the boxoffice of TLJ, Solo and ROS all underperforming TFA clearly shows she has made it worse. How many more excuses are you going to make for her, or are you going to continue to blame George Lucas?
Besides the prequels never split the fanbase like TLJ did.

People universally agreed Jar Jar was terrible for instance.

Most fans agree the PT was subpar. Nobody really gave each other shit much.

Modern politics and social media warriors combined with RJ and KKs handling caused a powder keg that split the two.
 
  • Like
Reactions: oagboghi2

sol_bad

Member
Jan 17, 2006
3,900
2,171
1,485
Which might be relevant if the prequels weren't a decade ago.

And the boxoffice of TLJ, Solo and ROS all underperforming TFA clearly shows she has made it worse. How many more excuses are you going to make for her, or are you going to continue to blame George Lucas?
You live in a fantasy world if you think TLJ and ROS are under performing. The box office for TFA was a crazy anomaly, apart from the original Star Wars film, no other film in the franchise has made anywhere near as much money before or after. The original trilogy made diminishing returns at the box office. None of the prequel trilogy made over 1 billion dollars at the time.

I rounded the numbers down.
Episode 4 - $503,000,000 = $2,100,000,000 today
Episode 5 - $400,000,000 = $1,200,000,000 today
Episode 6 - $374,000,000 = $965,000,000 today
Episode 1 - $924,000,000 = $1,426,000,000 today
Episode 2 - $640,000,000 = $915,000,000 today
Episode 3 - $849,000,000 = $1,118,000,000 today

Episode 7 - $2,068,000,000 = $2,224,000,000 today
Episode 8 - $1, 332,000,000 = $1,397,000,000 today
Rogue One - $1,056,000,000 = $1,131,000,000 today
Solo - $392,000,000 = $401,000,000 today

Apart from Solo, the Disney movies are staying pretty consistent with the Lucas made films.
 

Contica

Member
Feb 1, 2016
1,104
708
400
We're going on what we have to work with. You pull up an article, then when someone challenges you on your own game you argue, "we don't know what questions she was asked before she said this, so we have no idea how she makes any connection." That's irrelevant. You are the one who brought it up in defending someone in what was said in it, talking to us about grander context, and then further, using that to launch off on attacks of others. Now that we're operating fully in it, you're now trying to appeal to an even broader, speculative context in her defense when you've been challenged on the grounds you yourself provided.

And you're right, we can't know what she thinks, but we do know what she has said and what we've seen and can take it from there utilizing logic, evidence, inference and deduction. And this isn't complicated at all: when presented with some fans having an issue in seeing an appeal to political correctness in casting female leads, she conflated that immediately with a certain demographic who are disgruntled because they're no longer being catered to.

WHO SAID THAT?!

No one but her, she made that connection, and you then ran off with it, ranting that she doesn't owe anyone anything. I agree? No one ever stated she did and it's not the issue. Men have been fine with female leads in the past continuing up into the present, and nearly all the criticism I've heard directed at Rey is due to writing issues concerning the flawed development of her character.....not because of her gender. Kennedy's reply isn't controversial, but it is very revealing and suggestive of a mindset indicative of, and aligning perfectly with, her "The Force is Female" pic and other statements alluding to such an ideological slant.....one that I'm curious if you even acknowledge. And sorry to disappoint you, it's one that I don't believe suggests misandry. :messenger_grinning_squinting:

Kennedy's a feminist, not a misandrist, and I believe she's using her position of corporate influence to infuse and push an agenda of female representation within this franchise. She doesn't even attempt to hide it. Do I believe that it is coming at the expense of men? Is that really all that unreasonable to suspect when taking everything into account (not just what was stated in this article)? And to pre-empt if you're to come at me again with this nonsense; you can shove your lazy "insecure masculinity, grow a pair" Leftist bullshit insult where the sun don't shine for all I care. Simply because I can recognize something off about the portrayal of inter-sexual relations doesn't mean I'm insecure in my own sexuality. I found the treatment of some characters in TLJ to not only be narratively unjustified and logically unsound, I found their treatment to be far in excess of what was required to establish such a narrative or theme that many TLJ fans love to promote in its defense.

And I'm not in the slightest interested in getting into a TLJ debate once again, that road has been walked many times over.
You made it pretty clear a couple of sentences in that you don't understand what I'm saying, so I stopped reading.

She didn't say what you claim she said. That is all. Whatever else she has done and you don't like is something I frankly couldn't give less of a shit about. So I'm gonna repeat myself. Grow up.
 

HarryKS

Member
Jan 24, 2010
3,376
614
905
the sword fight coreography in all the prequels is very well done. i recommend Shadiversity's analysis videos. there are no CGI'd out daggers like in the Last Jedi or people coming in super early and having to change their swings, the actors and stunt men have all rehearsed enough, the battles are well thought out and realistic, despite the enhanced athletics of Force users.

i always liked the one-upping of Force Powers, it felt in line with the OT. if Luke was doing super jumps in ESB as a Jedi in training, it makes sense that full Jedi masters in the full bloom of the Old Republic would be pulling all kinds of tricks. Qui Gon is a great character, and IMO reason enough to start with TPM, with Anakin as that young, to have this story, and Qui Gon playing almost an Obi Wan role to Obi Wan himself, while Obi Wan is introduced as the mentor to young Anakin. 3 generations of Jedi rather than 2, this is an interesting twist on the usual student-master pairing.


Shadiversity did a cool video exploring the feasibility of lightsaber combat. there is a lot to consider, the various possibilities of Force-fueled lighstaber combat. the films obviously have to make certain choices for dramatic effect. he found that the technical limitations of sabers in the OT/PT made for more realistic battles, for if a Jedi could shut it on and off rapidly, that combined with their Force reflexes, they would be constantly doing this, every time a saber almost collides with another, you would shut it off, point the hilt directly at a vulnerable spot, and turn it on again. lightsabers didn't work that way in the PT/OT but they do now, alongside giving visions and talking to people.

they can flick them rapidly on/off in TLJ, and while visually cool, it raises the question of how come no one has ever done that. keep in mind the saber used is Luke's old saber, which he got from Obi Wan, so it is quite old technology. in general the PT maintains a physical realism to it's lightsaber combat while upping the athleticism from the OT and it's one of the highlights. ST takes things to cartoonish OP heights, whereas the OT/PT still has roots in genre swordfighting tradition.
Not the choreography as a whole. Just odd moments. Preceding Darth Maul's demise, he holds the high ground and has an absolute advantage over Obi Wan who is dangling off a precipice. Up to that point, they built him up as a ruthless and effective fighter who doesn't really take chances, yet, he looks at Obi Wan who is helpless and taunts him. Realistically, he could just have pushed him off with a flick(force push) or thrown something at him. Yet, he is tetanized during Obi Wan's flip and just gawps at him while being sliced off. I can buy that Obi Wan held off his own while being aggressive during the fight although he is mostly known for being exceptional with a defensive style but that flip kills it for me.

In Episode 3, I also don't agree with the Force Push challenge between Anakin and Obi Wan. Hubris or not, Anakin is a stronger force user and better combatant, as illustrated by his triumph over Dooku while Obi Wan was completely incapacitated.
 

PanzerAzel

Member
Oct 31, 2019
137
189
235
You made it pretty clear a couple of sentences in that you don't understand what I'm saying, so I stopped reading.

She didn't say what you claim she said. That is all. Whatever else she has done and you don't like is something I frankly couldn't give less of a shit about. So I'm gonna repeat myself. Grow up.
I'm not the one attacking people personally simply because I disagree with them. Follow your own fucking advice, and learn to read.
 

oagboghi2

Member
Apr 15, 2018
5,315
6,803
460
You live in a fantasy world if you think TLJ and ROS are under performing. The box office for TFA was a crazy anomaly, apart from the original Star Wars film, no other film in the franchise has made anywhere near as much money before or after. The original trilogy made diminishing returns at the box office. None of the prequel trilogy made over 1 billion dollars at the time.

I rounded the numbers down.
Episode 4 - $503,000,000 = $2,100,000,000 today
Episode 5 - $400,000,000 = $1,200,000,000 today
Episode 6 - $374,000,000 = $965,000,000 today
Episode 1 - $924,000,000 = $1,426,000,000 today
Episode 2 - $640,000,000 = $915,000,000 today
Episode 3 - $849,000,000 = $1,118,000,000 today

Episode 7 - $2,068,000,000 = $2,224,000,000 today
Episode 8 - $1, 332,000,000 = $1,397,000,000 today
Rogue One - $1,056,000,000 = $1,131,000,000 today
Solo - $392,000,000 = $401,000,000 today

Apart from Solo, the Disney movies are staying pretty consistent with the Lucas made films.
1. Why are you only counting the first run theatrical releases of the OT. Empire Strikes back was released multiple time. It outperformed the original

Oh wait, are you still pushing that lie that ESB was a failure and no one liked it?

2. The overall market has grown. It’s not a surprise the ST have hit over a billion. Multiple franchises do now.

“TFA was a crazy anomaly” 😂😂 the amount of excuses you make for Kathleen Kennedy and Disney is truly amazing.

TFA was not crazy. It was expected. Disney didn’t buy the Star Wars license with the expectation that they will release multiple movies, each making less than the last. In fact they expected the opposite.

It would be like if the Disney released Avengers 1, and every subsequent Avenger movie underperformed box office wise compared to the first. That would be considered a problem.

Your own numbers show how steep the drop is, but you are in such denial you can’t see what you posted. It’s honest pathetic.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: hariseldon

Lanrutcon

Member
Feb 19, 2014
8,905
2,685
580
Irrelevant
You live in a fantasy world if you think TLJ and ROS are under performing. The box office for TFA was a crazy anomaly, apart from the original Star Wars film, no other film in the franchise has made anywhere near as much money before or after. The original trilogy made diminishing returns at the box office. None of the prequel trilogy made over 1 billion dollars at the time.

I rounded the numbers down.
Episode 4 - $503,000,000 = $2,100,000,000 today
Episode 5 - $400,000,000 = $1,200,000,000 today
Episode 6 - $374,000,000 = $965,000,000 today
Episode 1 - $924,000,000 = $1,426,000,000 today
Episode 2 - $640,000,000 = $915,000,000 today
Episode 3 - $849,000,000 = $1,118,000,000 today

Episode 7 - $2,068,000,000 = $2,224,000,000 today
Episode 8 - $1, 332,000,000 = $1,397,000,000 today
Rogue One - $1,056,000,000 = $1,131,000,000 today
Solo - $392,000,000 = $401,000,000 today

Apart from Solo, the Disney movies are staying pretty consistent with the Lucas made films.
The viewing audience, availability of relevant technology and general acceptance of geek culture have grown tremendously since the release of the original movies. Episodes 7 to 9 should be destroying the original trilogy. Like, obliterating them. Something is up.
 

#Phonepunk#

Gold Member
Sep 4, 2018
8,527
11,807
695
38
The viewing audience, availability of relevant technology and general acceptance of geek culture have grown tremendously since the release of the original movies. Episodes 7 to 9 should be destroying the original trilogy. Like, obliterating them. Something is up.
yes. the original film trilogy had no mainstream hype, it was a natural hit, took everyone completely by surprise. the opening weekends for each film only grew as well, even if the sequels had less mainstream legs.

they should have planned them out. if VIII was written as a bridge to VII and IX you could cut out all the Canto Bight and Holdo mutiny stuff and instead have flashbacks to Rey's parents, maybe trying to avoid their assassin, or maybe just their daily lives, show us them being good people, using the force to help people, and at the end of the flashbacks it shows us their murder, and the reveal is the grand drop of the movie. have Luke and Rey exploring vast force caverns beneath Ach-Too, with gravity anomalies deep beneath the ground, maybe battle many monsters & evil Sith golems. they discover a mysterious dagger. show me some fantasy stuff. feel like the new movies are bad war docudramas with a SW skin. then when they do the mysticism, it's not coordinated, so it makes no sense. should have planned them out.

even with the story they have, there are a lot of things u could have done to patch things up and slowly build up suspense for everywhere they ended up at, had VIII been written with VII and IX in mind. instead, the second movie is both a huge waste of time and a massive turn off for many fans of the series. this is the first film where moral relativism is really a major part of the story, bothsidesism promoted by a number of main characters, and the usual B&W moralism, earnestly & at time awkwardly portrayed, is tossed aside for snarky, cool nihilism. that's just not SW.
 
Last edited:

sol_bad

Member
Jan 17, 2006
3,900
2,171
1,485
Let's not pretend the OT was a planned out masterpiece because it was not

Darth Vader was not originally Luke's father.
Leia was not originally Lukes sister.
The Emperor was not originally a Sith
Anakin and Vader were 2 separate characters.
Yoda did not originally exist.
The love triangle was more emphasized in the original script for ESB.


Luckily, Lucas was the one main creative behind the scenes and everything just happened to work out well.

The ST would have worked out flawlessly with a few modifications to the RoS script and if they weren't trying to shove nostalgia down our throats.

Rose, Janah and Zorii are almost 3 useless characters for 1 example. Rose could have filled in for all 3 roles really.
There re many more examples but this isn't a spoiler thread.
 

thequestion

Member
Sep 27, 2014
457
226
395
As much as I dislike KK and her “story team”, I think most of the backlash towards her and the Star Wars franchise stemmed from a couple of really bad choices in TLJ.

-“Let the past die” famous line from the film. IMO, at this point if the film, I think the majority of fans were still going along for the ride - the problem was they didn’t follow through with anything. Shortly after that scene where it’s teased that Kylo and Ray will join forces and create something “new”, the film chickens out, and everything just resets to the status quo.
-Rose preventing Finn from sacrificing himself to save the resistance and by doing so, forces Luke to force project across the galaxy and kill him self. They did Luke dirty at the start, and instead of giving him a kickass end to the his arc, to redeem the fan-favourite character, they just kill him off in an extremely unsatisfying way.

That movie was like being a kid at Christmas and getting a beautiful gift bag, and then after eagerly opening the bag, the only content in the bag is a dead Luke Skywalker figure.

All the other problems became much more glaring and obvious after these dissapointing moments in TLJ and the 3rd wave feminist propaganda became much more apparent.

Dave Feloni and Jon Favreau should lead Star Wars in the future. I feel the best way to course correct is to do more shows like the Mandalorian, and then create feature films that happen organically, out of these new shows.

Disney needs to stop trying to sell Star Wars to a female audience. It’s a guy thing. If there are girls who enjoy it - great! Awesome! The more the merrier! The truth is Star Wars has been around for a long time, and the majority of girls, just don’t care - they think it’s lame - in the same way most guys think the book/films: “little women”, is lame.
 

Furlong

Neo Member
Oct 27, 2019
28
59
115
Disney needs to stop trying to sell Star Wars to a female audience. It’s a guy thing. If there are girls who enjoy it - great! Awesome! The more the merrier! The truth is Star Wars has been around for a long time, and the majority of girls, just don’t care - they think it’s lame - in the same way most guys think the book/films: “little women”, is lame.
Women already have the Twilight and Harry Potter movies to enjoy, they don't need Star Wars as well.
 

GreyHorace

Member
Jun 14, 2019
1,053
2,597
540
Disney needs to stop trying to sell Star Wars to a female audience. It’s a guy thing. If there are girls who enjoy it - great! Awesome! The more the merrier! The truth is Star Wars has been around for a long time, and the majority of girls, just don’t care - they think it’s lame - in the same way most guys think the book/films: “little women”, is lame.
That's whats crazy about this whole thing. All Disney needed to do was to create content for the already existing fanbase. None of this Force is Female crap was needed.

Women already have the Twilight and Harry Potter movies to enjoy, they don't need Star Wars as well.
It's funny, but plenty of women were watching the Original Trilogy because Harrison Ford was pretty much a dreamboat back then. I mean, don't get me wrong, Leia was a pretty cool character for girls to idolize but we all know she wasn't the draw for them.

It's the same for me and many other guys who watched the Harry Potter films. The only reason we tuned in was:

 

ruvikx

Member
Jan 12, 2018
1,270
2,327
420
She has been a producer for decades and producers have more power than a director. In all those movies she has produced, you can certainly tell she hates men. The message in all those films is loud and clear.

Empire of the Sun, Hook, Jurassic Park, Congo, Twister. The list goes on. Strong man hate themes in all her films.

/sarcasm
Kathleen Kennedy had zero artistic, narrative, creative or whatever you wish to call "decision making powers" in Spielberg's movies. Don't pretend her role at Lucasfilm over the past 5 years & the responsibilities she has had in the recent Star Wars trilogy compare in any shape or form to her passive bean counter job on Spielberg's movies 10, 20 or 30 years ago.
 

Christopher

Member
Mar 19, 2005
17,814
928
1,710
When did Star Wars become a fucking SJW magnet???? Seriously when did this franchise get woke and the films need social commentary?
 

Pimpbaa

Member
Jun 8, 2004
17,168
447
1,660
43
Canada
Damage was already done back in 1999. Now Star Wars is Bernie from Weekend at Bernie's, and Kathleen Kennedy and the rest handling Star Wars are the two dudes pretending Bernie is still alive. I'm terrible at analogies. Oh well, at least I'm enjoying the mandalorian (more so than the recent movies).
 
  • Like
Reactions: sol_bad

prag16

Member
Jul 12, 2012
11,008
2,312
755
And Feloni made the worst episode of Mandalorian. No tanks.
Nah imo 2 and 4 were the weakest and least necessary (though the mudhorn fight was pretty important).

My ranking would probably go 8 7 3 1 6 5 2 4 as of now if I had to choose. But regardless Filoni is much more to the series than just the director of two episodes. He's a producer and showrunner along with Favreau.
 

Clear

Member
Feb 2, 2009
9,607
3,124
980
Gotta be honest, I feel like the SW brand is holding up far better than the quality of the movies has warranted.

I guess there's not much competition anymore in the space opera stakes, but still, the force is still strong in the public imagination. Just wish there'd been a single entry since Empire peaked in 1981 close to its level, nearly 40 fucking years guys...
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Jun 26, 2007
38,149
4,820
1,540
Best Coast
Let's be honest here, the fans are 100% at fault for the "downfall" of the films.

At release Empire Strikes Back was not very well received and this ws reflected in a lower box office for Return of the Jedi. From the very start fans weren't happy with how different episode 5 was to episode 4.

What? Empire had great appeal and success.

Let's be honest here indeed...
 

KingGhidorah

Member
Jul 28, 2019
321
840
365
Gotta be honest, I feel like the SW brand is holding up far better than the quality of the movies has warranted.

I guess there's not much competition anymore in the space opera stakes, but still, the force is still strong in the public imagination. Just wish there'd been a single entry since Empire peaked in 1981 close to its level, nearly 40 fucking years guys...

Hardcore fanbase propped up the brand before KK's comment. What I've said before, the brand would survive anything, even bad movies by GL, if fanbase completely behind it.

Then KK decided to alienate us for her feminism agenda.........
 
  • Like
Reactions: hariseldon