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[viciouskillersquirrel]

Or they could simply convey the joke and it could be, as it is in Japanese, up to the reader to get the joke.

So basically they could make it unfunny and incoherent? If I translated the following joke directly into English:

¿Que harias con doce millones?

Tomarlos.

I'd get:

What would you do with twelve million?

Drink them.

Unless you knew that the words "twelve million" sound exactly like the words "two Semillons" (as in the French wine) in the original, you're not going to get the joke. I f I have to explain it to you, it isn't funny.

 

[Fugu]

So basically what you're arguing is that all localized games should attempt to appeal to less of an audience in favor of preserving the "integrity" of the text. Sorry, I don't buy it.

Fortunately, I'm not selling.

Again, more often than not, the language and setting is less of an integral portion of the plot and more about giving the player a sense of grounding. All the Japanese "isms" of a game like Chrono Trigger aren't there because the game is some supposed look at Japanese life and culture; they're there because it's a game for Japanese gamers and meant to still be identifiable to them in spite of being "foreign" (in this case, being set in a medieval/steampunk fantasy world with all sorts of crazy time travel nonsense). Why should we add an extra layer of foreignness to these games to supposedly preserve the "integrity" of text that no longer has meaning to all but a limited audience who care enough to know these cultural intricacies? Try and argue that "by that token, why even keep the game's script" all you want; it doesn't change the fact that it's a weak strawman argument that has practically never happened.

This argument puts a lot of weight on the assumption that it's "for Japanese gamers". Yeah, the jokes are based on Japanese culture, but what explicitly prevents an American from apprecating Japanese humour (except reappropriating the dialogue)? The part where the dialogue is rewritten to be more appealing is a strictly marketing decision and does not exemplify good translation.

Also STRAWMAN STRAWMAN STRAWMAN my argument was an extrapolation of his. His argument was explicitly stated to be that what's important is meaning, so I responded by asking if he was alright with an entire script being written as long as it conveys the same meaning. That's not a straw man.

There are very few games that actually rely on being in Japan or being Japanese, or at least ones that make it Westward, and the ones that do almost always get a more literal treatment. Modern Persona is essentially based on relationships Japanese high school students have with each other, and unsurprisingly, those games got localizations that befits them; but even those games have numerous changes that you're essentially arguing should have never been made. For most other games with contemporary Japanese settings - Ace Attorney, Trauma Center, The World Ends With You - it's not important, and as such those games get tweaked to make them more palpable to a wider audience.

And that's fine. It's not good translation but I would imagine it makes the game substantially easier to sell.

So basically they could make it unfunny and incoherent? If I translated the following joke directly into English:

¿Que harias con doce millones?

Tomarlos.

I'd get:

What would you do with twelve million?

Drink them.

Unless you knew that the words "twelve million" sound exactly like the words "two Semillons" (as in the French wine) in the original, you're not going to get the joke. I f I have to explain it to you, it isn't funny.

That sounds like a pun to me.

 

[Pureauthor]

This argument puts a lot of weight on the assumption that it's "for Japanese gamers". Yeah, the jokes are based on Japanese culture, but what explicitly prevents an American from apprecating Japanese humour (except reappropriating the dialogue)?

The lack of understanding of, say, the Japanese language, the Japanese culture, Japanese practices, etc? Because I imagine that would be a rather significant barrier.

 

[I AM JOHN!]

Yeah, the jokes are based on Japanese culture, but what explicitly prevents an American from apprecating Japanese humour (except reappropriating the dialogue)?

You mean aside from the fact that it's not the culture that the vast majority of people have had any experience with because they cannot speak the language, have not spent any time in the country, and were raised in a different culture with different values, structure and expectations? This is the most ridiculously fucking weeaboo argument I have ever read.

 

[KTallguy]

This argument puts a lot of weight on the assumption that it's "for Japanese gamers". Yeah, the jokes are based on Japanese culture, but what explicitly prevents an American from apprecating Japanese humour (except reappropriating the dialogue)?

Read the other posts in this thread, plenty of examples!

A game's audience shouldn't be limited to people with a strong interest in Japanese culture.
A lot of these localization choices are done with approval and blessings from the original creators... yes it's a poor "direct" translation, but is the original intent of the author being preserved? In the majority of cases, yes! (I'm referring to most modern localizations)

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

Fugu, what you're failing to get is that when it comes to making a good translation, meaning isn't anywhere nearly as important as intent.

People who sell pneumatic drills aren't in the business of making drills, they're in the business of making holes.

 

[Gravijah]

People that can read the source language don't need localized games, yet they seem to be some of the people who argue loudest. The product isn't aimed at you, and there exists a version for you to enjoy that fits what you want.

 

[RevenantKioku]

And that's fine. It's not good translation but I would imagine it makes the game substantially easier to sell.

Okay, so I think I finally get your point. You're not arguing whether or not it's better for the game, but whether or not it's a "proper" translation?
Why would something like that matter?

 

[disappeared]

God forbid a translator should do his job and actually translate and adapt dialogue for its intended audience.

 

[Aeana]

People that can read the source language don't need localized games, yet they seem to be some of the people who argue loudest. The product isn't aimed at you, and there exists a version for you to enjoy that fits what you want.

I'd say it's the people who understand a few words of the source language, thinking they know what they're talking about but really don't, who argue the loudest. You'll find many people in this thread who are fluent in Japanese, and not one of them is on that side of the debate.

 

[Pureauthor]

I'd say it's the people who understand a few words of the source language, thinking they know what they're talking about but really don't, who argue the loudest. You'll find many people in this thread who are fluent in Japanese, and not one of them is on that side of the debate.

Well Fugu claims he's good at Japanese.

I don't speak (much) Japanese but I've studied Chinese and I can tell you there are plenty of jokes that would never translate properly.

 

[Fugu]

Fugu, what you're failing to get is that when it comes to making a good translation, meaning isn't anywhere nearly as important as intent.

People who sell pneumatic drills aren't in the business of making drills, they're in the business of making holes.

I love how you assume I disagree because I don't *get* things. I get what you're saying, I just don't think intent is more important than meaning in a translation.

Read the other posts in this thread, plenty of examples!

A game's audience shouldn't be limited to people with a strong interest in Japanese culture.
A lot of these localization choices are done with approval and blessings from the original creators... yes it's a poor "direct" translation, but is the original intent of the author being preserved? In the majority of cases, yes! (I'm referring to most modern localizations)

Why not? They're Japanese games. Again, my argument is that this is bad translation practice, not that it's bad marketing practice.

You mean aside from the fact that it's not the culture that the vast majority of people have had any experience with because they cannot speak the language, have not spent any time in the country, and were raised in a different culture with different values, structure and expectations? This is the most ridiculously fucking weeaboo argument I have ever read.

Namecalling is awesome. Also, see above.

The lack of understanding of, say, the Japanese language, the Japanese culture, Japanese practices, etc? Because I imagine that would be a rather significant barrier.

Yes it is. It's a Japanese game so I would imagine some understanding of Japanese culture would be required to understand a translation.

EDIT: There's fuckin' more.

Well Fugu claims he's good at Japanese.

I don't speak (much) Japanese but I've studied Chinese and I can tell you there are plenty of jokes that would never translate properly.

What? I never claimed I was good at Japanese.

Okay, so I think I finally get your point. You're not arguing whether or not it's better for the game, but whether or not it's a "proper" translation?
Why would something like that matter?

Because a proper translation renders a more accurate version of the game for those capable of understanding the material.

 

[Gravijah]

I'd say it's the people who understand a few words of the source language, thinking they know what they're talking about but really don't, who argue the loudest. You'll find many people in this thread who are fluent in Japanese, and not one of them is on that side of the debate.

Yes, I didn't mean to imply that. I appreciate those that understand the language fluently and understand the issue.

 

[KTallguy]

Funny thing is, when you begin to learn another language you do go through that phase.
In fact I still go to American movies in Japan and think "that's not quite right", when reading the subtitles. Movie subtitles are more challenging than straight text though.

What? I never claimed I was good at Japanese.

...?

I speak three languages. One of them is Japanese. It is certainly possible to translate a statement non-literally while keeping the same basic meaning...Yes, in idiomatic expressions and words with complex connotations that don't exist in other languages, it's necessary to change the words, but only so that those words reflect the same literal meaning. A sentence about ramen is about ramen, not hamburgers.

You sound like a regular language expert here?
Yes I can literally translate every word, but in many cases it will dumbfound the audience.
Knowledge of Japanese culture shouldn't be necessary to enjoy a game like Chrono trigger, which is about a fantasy location. If the game is about Japan, like Ryu Ga Gotoku (Yakuza), then that expectation is a little more palpable.

I liken this to the english adaptations of Haruki Murakami's works. If the translators responsible were to have taken the dialogue and referential material verbatim, the dialogue and descriptions never would have read as smoothly.

Haruki Murakami's books are a great example! I was going to mention that.
Revisiting them in Japanese years after reading them in English was really fun, and seeing how certain spots were translated make me really respect those professional guys.

 

[RevenantKioku]

フグちゃん、日本語でやろうか？
さ、お前の考えは、日本のゲームを翻訳するのは日本語を分かる人だけの為に？それだったら、なんで日本語から翻訳した？

 

[Pureauthor]

What? I never claimed I was good at Japanese.

I speak three languages. One of them is Japanese.

So, um... yeah.

Because a proper translation renders a more accurate version of the game for those capable of understanding the material.

But the whole point of a localization is that it goes to people who are statistically unlikely to have any understanding of the material.

 

[disappeared]

I liken this to the english adaptations of Haruki Murakami's works. If the translators responsible were to have taken the dialogue and referential material verbatim, the dialogue and descriptions never would have read as smoothly.

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

That sounds like a pun to me.

It is a pun, to be sure.

How about an example closer to home.

I'm adapting the hit comedy Barbershop, starring Ice Cube, Eve, and Cedric the Entertainer for a Japanese audience.

During the scene where Lester Wallace enters the barbershop to talk to Calvin, he comes across Eddie, the elderly barber. The following exchange takes place.

Lester: Eddie.

Eddie: N****r.

[Lester pauses and grimaces for a moment and looks up]

Now if you weren't intimately familiar with the N-word, its history in the US and its various uses among the black community, you might be confused by this exchange or miss its significance, especially given its use elsewhere in the script as a quasi-ironic slang word for "friend", "fellow" or "comrade".

Thing is, while recent use among the younger set has the use of the N-word among two black people follow this pattern, among older black people, it takes on a nasty tone. Back in the 60s, the N-word was a grievous insult among black people, referring to the worst elements of the community - the lowest of the low.

Eddie's use of the word echoed this older usage, masked as it was by the veneer of the modern. Through Eddie's enunciation and tone of both and as both characters were older, both implicitly understood that what might otherwise be seen as a casual greeting among two black people was actually one slapping the other in the proverbial face. Disrespecting him.

Of course, you could just do the straight translation, but it would miss the whole nuance of that brief exchange. The N-word likely has no equivalent in Japan, even among immigrants or the descendants of the Burakumin. You'd need to change the dialogue for people to understand what went on just there, and significantly, otherwise the point of the dialogue would be missed.

 

[Fugu]

So, um... yeah.

Japanese is indeed one of the languages that I study. But "good"? Dear god, no.

You sound like a regular language expert here?
Yes I can literally translate every word, but in many cases it will dumbfound the audience.
Knowledge of Japanese culture shouldn't be necessary to enjoy a game like Chrono trigger, which is about a fantasy location. If the game is about Japan, like Ryu Ga Gotoku (Yakuza), then that expectation is a little more palpable.

I'm not a language expert.
That's a bold assertion considering it's a Japanese game.

フグちゃん、日本語でやろうか？
さ、お前の考えは、日本のゲームを翻訳するのは日本語を分かる人だけの為に？それだったら、なんで日本語から翻訳した？

Because I'm dangerously incompetent and I would take forever to get through anything written for an audience over the age of ten.

I don't believe I'm particularly competent in Japanese and I would argue the same point if it were about another language or culture. I also don't have IME on my laptop, sorry. It's easy enough to google "ramen" but I'm not putting together a whole sentence without it.

I shortened this

I would rather such a concept be explained to me than have all of the ethnicities swapped to make the joke make sense to me.

 

[RevenantKioku]

As someone else who is studying a language I can sympathize with your viewpoint. Explanaions are better for learning. Thing is, most are playing games for entertainment. Which is fair to say, wouldn't you think?

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

I would rather such a concept be explained to me than have all of the ethnicities swapped to make the joke make sense to me.

That wasn't a joke. The N-word is serious business.

No, what you would do would be to swap it for a short exchange in Japanese that while explicitly polite, implicitly carries with it a greivous insult. Otherwise, you have to segue into a long explanation that, while educational, interrupts the story and kills the pacing of the scene, robbing your viewers of the experience an American audience would gain from it.

 

[Rei_Toei]

I remember being surprised and confused the first time I heard that people thought that Ted Woolsey had done something bad. I grew up on 8- and 16-bit RPGs that all available evidence suggested were translated by brain-damaged alpacas. Woolsey comes along, does a halfway decent job with Secret of Mana in the three days or whatever they gave him to pound out a script, and then practically in a vacuum actually writes a few game translations that actually read pretty well, which was essentially revolutionizing the process. His name was synonymous in my mind with "best translator ever."

A few years later and revisionist jackholes with oversized senses of entitlement and 20/20 hindsight whose first RPG was Final Fantasy VII decide that he didn't do a good enough job? How about fuck you.

I love you, man.

 

[KTallguy]

No, what you would do would be to swap it for a short exchange in Japanese that while explicitly polite, implicitly carries with it a greivous insult.

God knows Japanese has plenty of this :lol

Besides, no matter what, ANY localization creates a different version of the original that can't replace it, no matter how many honorifics you shoehorn in. The only way to get the "true" experience is to play the game in it's original language. I'd argue that unless you're born and raised in Japan, you can't experience it the same way as a Japanese author. Even if you watch a long documentary on Japanese high-school culture and take diligent notes.

And the problem with using localizations for learning any language is that you're reading mostly English, so it's kind of worthless unless you just idolize Japanese culture and feeling close to it is more important than practical communication.

 

[Red Scarlet]

フグちゃん、日本語でやろうか？
さ、お前の考えは、日本のゲームを翻訳するのは日本語を分かる人だけの為に？それだったら、なんで日本語から翻訳した？

Cool, I can read bits and pieces.

 

[Sqorgar]

Let's be excellent to one another.

I think Fugu made a really good point. There is a difference between translation - that is, taking something indecipherable and making it understandable - and adaptation - that is, taking something and turning it into something else that better suits your needs. The process of localization is largely dictated by the desire for a larger market which arguably benefits from the "deculturization" of foreign material. However, something that is good for marketing does not make it a good translation. Let's see if I can't make that contrast more obvious.

Let's make two basic assumptions that are a bit in the world of fantasy, but let's make them anyway to see where it takes us:

1) It doesn't matter who is going to play the game.

2) The game in question has significant historical value in its native language.

I think that if we make these two assumptions, what we find acceptable in translation changes drastically. Were the original game to be something significant, greater care would be taken to ensure that the original's integrity, and all the cultural differences contained within, are retained and properly conveyed. Likewise, if one was not creating the localization for a particular audience, the resulting translation would not be adapted towards a limited bias.

Now, let's make two different assumptions:

1) The audience for the game has very specific, very narrow expectations.

2) To reach the widest audience possible, only the most common expectations will be appealed to.

What's different now? Well, for one, you end up targeting the lowest common denominator. If 70% of your audience can read and 30% can not, the only way to target 100% is to avoid the need for literacy. Second, you end up changing the original work to target a completely new audience. Making these two assumptions forces you into a mindset where it doesn't matter what the original work is, it must be changed as extensively as possible to target this new audience. Granted, it's usually not feasible. Yakuza 3 isn't going to suddenly take place in Miami, though Puyo Puyo might become Dr. Robotnix's Mean Bean Machine or Pop 'n Music might now have Chumbawumba and Britney Spears.

The difference between these two approaches is that the former thinks very highly of the original work and very highly of the people who will potentially enjoy it (no concessions have been made on their behalf because it is assumed that none are needed). The latter approach thinks precious little about the original work, so little that it seeks to change or rewrite when things become inconvenient, and thinks even less of the people it expects to enjoy it (concessions are made on their behalf out of fear of what they might not find acceptable).

Let's assume that these are the two ends of the spectrum, rather than complete rewrites and ultra-literal translations. I think that most professional translations that aren't a damn embarrassment fall somewhere in the middle, though usually leaning towards one side or another. If I pick up a Criterion Collection Blu-Ray of a Fellini movie, I think it is probably going to veer towards to the "preserving history" perspective. If I get the dub-only Crayonshin-chan dvd sets which have been completely rewritten, top to bottom, then I think it is going to lean a bit more towards the "pandering" perspective.

So ultimately, what I'm asking for is less pandering and more preserving. Is that really such an outrageous thing to ask?

 

[RevenantKioku]

And the problem with using localizations for learning any language is that you're reading mostly English, so it's kind of worthless unless you just idolize Japanese culture and feeling close to it is more important than practical communication.

Just curious if this was in reference to my last post.
Yeah, that is absolutely corrected and I wanted to get into that, but I was typing on my iPhone at the time and got lazy.

Let's be excellent to one another.

I think Fugu made a really good point. There is a difference between translation - that is, taking something indecipherable and making it understandable - and adaptation - that is, taking something and turning it into something else that better suits your needs. The process of localization is largely dictated by the desire for a larger market which arguably benefits from the "deculturization" of foreign material. However, something that is good for marketing does not make it a good translation. Let's see if I can't make that contrast more obvious.

Let's make two basic assumptions that are a bit in the world of fantasy, but let's make them anyway to see where it takes us:

1) It doesn't matter who is going to play the game.

2) The game in question has significant historical value in its native language.

I think that if we make these two assumptions, what we find acceptable in translation changes drastically. Were the original game to be something significant, greater care would be taken to ensure that the original's integrity, and all the cultural differences contained within, are retained and properly conveyed. Likewise, if one was not creating the localization for a particular audience, the resulting translation would not be adapted towards a limited bias.

Now, let's make two different assumptions:

1) The audience for the game has very specific, very narrow expectations.

2) To reach the widest audience possible, only the most common expectations will be appealed to.

What's different now? Well, for one, you end up targeting the lowest common denominator. If 70% of your audience can read and 30% can not, the only way to target 100% is to avoid the need for literacy. Second, you end up changing the original work to target a completely new audience. Making these two assumptions forces you into a mindset where it doesn't matter what the original work is, it must be changed as extensively as possible to target this new audience. Granted, it's usually not feasible. Yakuza 3 isn't going to suddenly take place in Miami, though Puyo Puyo might become Dr. Robotnix's Mean Bean Machine or Pop 'n Music might now have Chumbawumba and Britney Spears.

The difference between these two approaches is that the former thinks very highly of the original work and very highly of the people who will potentially enjoy it (no concessions have been made on their behalf because it is assumed that none are needed). The latter approach thinks precious little about the original work, so little that it seeks to change or rewrite when things become inconvenient, and thinks even less of the people it expects to enjoy it (concessions are made on their behalf out of fear of what they might not find acceptable).

Let's assume that these are the two ends of the spectrum, rather than complete rewrites and ultra-literal translations. I think that most professional translations that aren't a damn embarrassment fall somewhere in the middle, though usually leaning towards one side or another. If I pick up a Criterion Collection Blu-Ray of a Fellini movie, I think it is probably going to veer towards to the "preserving history" perspective. If I get the dub-only Crayonshin-chan dvd sets which have been completely rewritten, top to bottom, then I think it is going to lean a bit more towards the "pandering" perspective.

So ultimately, what I'm asking for is less pandering and more preserving. Is that really such an outrageous thing to ask?

 

[Fugu]

That wasn't a joke. The N-word is serious business.

No, what you would do would be to swap it for a short exchange in Japanese that while explicitly polite, implicitly carries with it a greivous insult. Otherwise, you have to segue into a long explanation that, while educational, interrupts the story and kills the pacing of the scene, robbing your viewers of the experience an American audience would gain from it.

Yes, that would make it easier to understand to be certain, but it would also make it a less accurate translation. More entertaining? Probably. Less accurate? Yes.

Let's be excellent to one another.

I think Fugu made a really good point. There is a difference between translation - that is, taking something indecipherable and making it understandable - and adaptation - that is, taking something and turning it into something else that better suits your needs. The process of localization is largely dictated by the desire for a larger market which arguably benefits from the "deculturization" of foreign material. However, something that is good for marketing does not make it a good translation. Let's see if I can't make that contrast more obvious.

Let's make two basic assumptions that are a bit in the world of fantasy, but let's make them anyway to see where it takes us:

1) It doesn't matter who is going to play the game.

2) The game in question has significant historical value in its native language.

I think that if we make these two assumptions, what we find acceptable in translation changes drastically. Were the original game to be something significant, greater care would be taken to ensure that the original's integrity, and all the cultural differences contained within, are retained and properly conveyed. Likewise, if one was not creating the localization for a particular audience, the resulting translation would not be adapted towards a limited bias.

Now, let's make two different assumptions:

1) The audience for the game has very specific, very narrow expectations.

2) To reach the widest audience possible, only the most common expectations will be appealed to.

What's different now? Well, for one, you end up targeting the lowest common denominator. If 70% of your audience can read and 30% can not, the only way to target 100% is to avoid the need for literacy. Second, you end up changing the original work to target a completely new audience. Making these two assumptions forces you into a mindset where it doesn't matter what the original work is, it must be changed as extensively as possible to target this new audience. Granted, it's usually not feasible. Yakuza 3 isn't going to suddenly take place in Miami, though Puyo Puyo might become Dr. Robotnix's Mean Bean Machine or Pop 'n Music might now have Chumbawumba and Britney Spears.

The difference between these two approaches is that the former thinks very highly of the original work and very highly of the people who will potentially enjoy it (no concessions have been made on their behalf because it is assumed that none are needed). The latter approach thinks precious little about the original work, so little that it seeks to change or rewrite when things become inconvenient, and thinks even less of the people it expects to enjoy it (concessions are made on their behalf out of fear of what they might not find acceptable).

Let's assume that these are the two ends of the spectrum, rather than complete rewrites and ultra-literal translations. I think that most professional translations that aren't a damn embarrassment fall somewhere in the middle, though usually leaning towards one side or another. If I pick up a Criterion Collection Blu-Ray of a Fellini movie, I think it is probably going to veer towards to the "preserving history" perspective. If I get the dub-only Crayonshin-chan dvd sets which have been completely rewritten, top to bottom, then I think it is going to lean a bit more towards the "pandering" perspective.

So ultimately, what I'm asking for is less pandering and more preserving. Is that really such an outrageous thing to ask?

This is a fine post.

As someone else who is studying a language I can sympathize with your viewpoint. Explanaions are better for learning. Thing is, most are playing games for entertainment. Which is fair to say, wouldn't you think?

Yeah, which is why I don't strictly believe that adaptations that make the source material easier to read without prior knowledge are a bad thing. I think they are bad translations.

EDIT: This part didn't make sense the first time I wrote it.

Cool, I can read bits and pieces.

Best damn feeling in the world.

 

[RevenantKioku]

Yes, that would make it easier to understand to be certain, but it would also make it a less accurate translation. More entertaining? Probably. Less accurate? Yes.

What does the accuracy matter other than for accuracy's sake?
What is gained?

Look at any of the examples in the Chrono Trigger retranslation thread. They may be more accurate, but what does that gain the consumer of the game?

 

[Fugu]

What does the accuracy matter other than for accuracy's sake?
What is gained?

Well, accuracy is gained. If internal cultural references remained intact, eventually a fan of all of these Japanese games is going to develop an understanding of Japanese culture that wouldn't exist if it weren't for accurate translations. If ramen were referenced instead of hamburgers, there's an exponentially greater chance of a reader learning to understand the relevance of ramen in Japanese culture. That may one day lead to one getting the nuances of the dialogue. It's not impossible, for example, for a non-Japanese speaker to understand the concept of a scathingly polite dialogue if it is explained to them as is and not permutated for them in a manner deemed culturally equivalent.

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

So ultimately, what I'm asking for is less pandering and more preserving. Is that really such an outrageous thing to ask?

When we're talking about video games - a medium where works made with any literary narrative content have only emerged over the past twenty or so years, then yes, it is an outrageous thing to ask.

It is a young medium and the best narrative minds are not working on it. Some would argue that it isn't primarily a narrative medium but an experiential one. Give it another fifty years or so and with hindsight, we may see works of great significance, but at the moment, the best examples of the medium (i.e. the ones that have stood the test of time and transcend beyond the traditional video game audience) tend to be the ones whose greatness does not depend on their narrative.

Works of significance have yet to emerge in the video game space. I see no romances or tragedies presented in video game form except in the crudest of ways. What I do see are coming of age, save the world and pulp fiction stories aplenty, but without the depth of the other forms to colour and fill out the work.

One day a work may come along that is so complex and nuanced that in order to convey the experience to a foreign audience, a very literal translation approach will be required. That day is not here yet.

Well, accuracy is gained. If internal cultural references remained intact, eventually a fan of all of these Japanese games is going to develop an understanding of Japanese culture that wouldn't exist if it weren't for accurate translations. If ramen were referenced instead of hamburgers, there's an exponentially greater chance of a reader learning to understand the relevance of ramen in Japanese culture. That may one day lead to one getting the nuances of the dialogue. It's not impossible, for example, for a non-Japanese speaker to understand the concept of a scathingly polite dialogue if it is explained to them as is and not permutated for them in a manner deemed culturally equivalent.

Except that they couldn't become fans of these Japanese games in the first place if they didn't find these games in the least bit entertaining. The creator's original vision for the work would not be served by intentionally making it difficult for their audience to understand it.

The makers of video games make their works in order to entertain. Let the games be entertaining. The makers of textbooks and documentaries make their works in order to educate. Let the textbooks and documentaries be educational.

 

[RevenantKioku]

That may one lead to one day getting the nuisances of the dialogue? How many people are going to be playing it multiple times to try to learn something about Japanese culture? Here's the thing: PW isn't trying to teach Japanese culture. Were it trying to do so and it replaced ramen with hamburgers, then it makes sense.

 

[Gravijah]

Well, accuracy is gained. If internal cultural references remained intact, eventually a fan of all of these Japanese games is going to develop an understanding of Japanese culture that wouldn't exist if it weren't for accurate translations. If ramen were referenced instead of hamburgers, there's an exponentially greater chance of a reader learning to understand the relevance of ramen in Japanese culture. That may one day lead to one getting the nuances of the dialogue. It's not impossible, for example, for a non-Japanese speaker to understand the concept of a scathingly polite dialogue if it is explained to them as is and not permutated for them in a manner deemed culturally equivalent.

While gaining accuracy, you lose the actual meaning of things. They become hollow words that mean nothing to the person reading them, meant to look pretty but being entirely useless.

 

[Fugu]

That may one lead to one day getting the nuisances of the dialogue? How many people are going to be playing it multiple times to try to learn something about Japanese culture? Here's the thing: PW isn't trying to teach Japanese culture. Were it trying to do so and it replaced ramen with hamburgers, then it makes sense.

I didn't mean playing the same game over and over again. People develop understanding of things through context and exposure and Japanese culture is no exception. What's preventing someone from figuring out -- by reading -- what something means to someone else?

 

[Gravijah]

I didn't mean playing the same game over and over again. People develop understanding of things through context and exposure and Japanese culture is no exception. What's preventing someone from figuring out -- by reading -- what something means to someone else?

In games like Persona, and such I agree. But in a generic RPG fantasy world... what does Japanese culture have to do with them?

 

[Sciz]

This thread is like a Who's Who of GAF's best posters.

Yes, that would make it easier to understand to be certain, but it would also make it a less accurate translation. More entertaining? Probably. Less accurate? Yes.

I'd argue that it's more important that the intent of the work be accurate than the wording.

The problem with translating cultural references is that even if you have a perfectly good academic understanding of a certain one, that still isn't the same as actually being part of the culture that reference was originally targeted towards. Things like that have memories and emotional strings attached.

 

[RevenantKioku]

I didn't mean playing the same game over and over again. People develop understanding of things through context and exposure and Japanese culture is no exception. What's preventing someone from figuring out -- by reading -- what something means to someone else?

Nothing? But does Phoenix Wright owe that? Let's assume, because we're making crazy assumptions all day apparently, the original script writer was also the translator. And he chose ramen for the Japanese version and hamburger for the English because he felt that it would portray the character the way he wanted it to be portrayed. Is this wrong? What is lost?

You might pick up a thing here or there, and that's cool. But you might also be making assumptions out of cultures based on video games, which aren't trying to be 100% accurate either. You're better off learning about Japanese culture by reading about it or experiencing it.

 

[Fugu]

In games like Persona, and such I agree. But in a generic RPG fantasy world... what does Japanese culture have to do with them?

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but if Japanese culture has nothing to do with their dialogue then a direct (not literal) translation shouldn't be a problem, right?

Nothing? But does Phoenix Wright owe that? Let's assume, because we're making crazy assumptions all day apparently, the original script writer was also the translator. And he chose ramen for the Japanese version and hamburger for the English because he felt that it would portray the character the way he wanted it to be portrayed. Is this wrong? What is lost?

You might pick up a thing here or there, and that's cool. But you might also be making assumptions out of cultures based on video games, which aren't trying to be 100% accurate either. You're better off learning about Japanese culture by reading about it or experiencing it.

Semantics maybe, but if he was attempting to translate what he wrote first in Japanese then it's a bad translation.

Of course not, but then the contextual, cultural references were flawed in the first place; doesn't prevent you from understanding all the same.

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

I didn't mean playing the same game over and over again. People develop understanding of things through context and exposure and Japanese culture is no exception. What's preventing someone from figuring out -- by reading -- what something means to someone else?

Nothing at all. In the meantime, they're playing lifeless, boring and incomprehensible games. Games the creators originally wanted to be entertaining.

Do you not see what's going wrong here?

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but if Japanese culture has nothing to do with their dialogue then a direct (not literal) translation shouldn't be a problem, right?

Click the first link in my tag. Just click it and read.

 

[Fugu]

Nothing at all. In the meantime, they're playing lifeless, boring and incomprehensible games. Games the creators originally wanted to be entertaining.

Do you not see what's going wrong here?

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I believe it's a bad translation, not a bad thing.

 

[Gravijah]

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but if Japanese culture has nothing to do with their dialogue then a direct (not literal) translation shouldn't be a problem, right?

The Japanese language, Japanese related culture, etc are used in fantasy/medieval/etc JRPGs for the same reason that things are changed in localization. They are, for the most part, the same thing.

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I believe it's a bad translation, not a bad thing.

So word-perfect dialogue that is stilted and meaningless is good translation?

Just read my goddam clownboats tag.

 

[Comic]

Because a proper translation renders a more accurate version of the game for those capable of understanding the material.

Those capable of understanding the material don't need a translation by definition.

 

[RevenantKioku]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I believe it's a bad translation, not a bad thing.

So what is exactly the problem then? What are you exactly arguing?

 

[Fugu]

So word-perfect dialogue that is stilted and meaningless is good translation?

Under what circumstances would a good translation be stilted and meaningless? I can name two.

1. The reader doesn't understand the meaning of the dialogue; in this case, the translation is fine and the problem lies with the reader.
2. The original source material is stilted and meaningless; again, the translation is fine and it's the source material that's flawed.

 

[Gravijah]

Under what circumstances would a good translation be stilted and meaningless? I can name two.

1. The reader doesn't understand the meaning of the dialogue; in this case, the translation is fine and the problem lies with the reader.
2. The original source material is stilted and meaningless; again, the translation is fine and it's the source material that's flawed.

I'm not a translator or anything, but, if a reader is unable to understand a translation, isn't it usually the translators fault?

 

[RevenantKioku]

Under what circumstances would a good translation be stilted and meaningless? I can name two.

1. The reader doesn't understand the meaning of the dialogue; in this case, the translation is fine and the problem lies with the reader.
2. The original source material is stilted and meaningless; again, the translation is fine and it's the source material that's flawed.

Language isn't math.

 

[Fugu]

So what is exactly the problem then? What are you exactly arguing?

That asserting that a translation that changes words for words with a different meaning is flawed.

Those capable of understanding the material don't need a translation by definition.

Sure they do. Someone could understand Japanese concepts in English without being capable of understanding the Japanese language.

I'm not a translator or anything, but, if a reader is unable to understand a translation, isn't it usually the translators fault?

Or that the source material is outside of their comprehension.

 

[Gravijah]

Or that the source material is outside of their comprehension.

I don't feel that's true, moreso that the translator didn't do an adequate job.

 

[Fugu]

I don't feel that's true, moreso that the translator didn't do an adequate job.

Well I think that's where the debate becomes meaningless; at the end of the day I believe that a translator's job description does not include any audience-oriented optimization and clearly, a lot of people here do.

Language isn't math.

Yeah.
To be quite honest, I'm not entirely sure how to respond to this.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

As somebody who's done professional translation work from Japanese to English, I can tell you that 1:1 translations are pretty much impossible. I had to do stuff for Japanese government offices who wanted complete transliterations, and had functionaries who would actually dictionary-check to make sure I wasn't changing a word of their official holy writ, thereby creating my own de-facto government proclamations.

The resulting translations I did were things they happily signed off on, but which I am ashamed to have my name attached to. They read like illiterate nonsense, but as far as they were concerned it was exactly what they were saying.

Ever since that experience, I've decided that translation should preserve as much of the spirit of the original style as possible, but ultimately has to be rendered pleasingly in the target language or it's essentially worthless; if that means compromise then so be it.

It's one thing to worry about translating Murakami, but in my opinion this goes double, heck, triple for things like videogames. Japanese videogame scripts tend to be cliche-ridden and bland, with hokey dorama-level dialogue (if you're lucky). These days when playing games with Japanese voices and English subtitles and comparing the two, I find that they tend to be better written in the English.

The Yakuza series is exhibit A - not as much of the edge or sweary-badassery is present in the Japanese, the English translation adds a ton to the game's charm, imo. Japanese is generally a language of implication rather than outright fuck-your-mother insults, and a transliteration would carry over little of the original intent. What Sega's translations have done is actually magnify and improve upon what the game is originally trying to do, even if they radically alter the words coming out of the characters' mouths.

Sticking with Sega, another recent example that springs to mind is Valkyria Chronicles. The Japanese dialogue in that game almost feels like it came off on assembly line, with one canned expression after another. The English translation is actually far more varied, going as far as to translate repeated phrases in differing ways throughout the narrative. It just has a lot more charm and personality.

Part of this is that English is quite simply a more florid language than just about anything else out there. Asian languages tend to lack pronouns and definitive articles, and Japanese in particular lacks the regional variation and dialect that English has, and the attendant rapid generational linguistic evolution that accompanies it. This is not to say there aren't dialects, colloquialisms or slang, but not to the same degree you get from a language with hundreds of millions of speakers.

For the most part, I think western publishers are employing a higher calibre of writer at the moment. That's a generalization, there are plenty of well written Japanese games (Fatal Frame's Japanese script comes to mind; it's highly evocative and contains historical and literary allusions that just don't come across well - if at all - in English), but by and large I think English speaking gamers probably don't realize just how good they have it.