Skyrim Workshop Now Supports Paid Mods

Status
Not open for further replies.
Wow people. Mod makers have the right to charge what ever they want for their hot garbage.

We as consumers are entitled to not lap it up if we don't find it to be a worthwhile proposition.

That's all there is to it.

There are a number of reasons devs would want to release things for free, including but not limited to feedback, growth, experimentation, etc.

If you don't want to pay for it, then stick with the last unpaid for version if its still available.

Or resort to piracy if you're of that moral disposition. Telling people that they're not entitled to charge what they want to charge for the stuff they're peddling is asinine.

It's like going into a store and shouting at the people for charging too much... which now that I think about it, actually does happen.

This rant has got me thinking about an awesome idea. We should have digital goods haggling. If you don't want to pay the price, put in an offer. Whoever manages that item can approve or reject the offer depending on whatever they see fit.

A more accurate analogy is going to the manufacturer as the consumer and telling them they charge too much. Most manufacturers would probably tell you to piss off (in nicer words), unless you happen to be a bulk buyer (not applicable in this situation).
 
Free mods are still a possibility, right? There's so much to read here and I'm confused...
Yup, entirely up to the author. Anything using unlicensed material will be barred from monetisation without express approval, and any explicit mods will probably be outright rejected from the service. So free mods will still be around, though maybe with a bit less selection than before.

The question is: how will bigger mods be affected, and what will the price for a fully-loaded Skyrim end up being? The answer to this remains to be seen.
 
I know people personally that pay rent with fan art and fanfic commissions. Vast majority of companies turn a blind eye to it even though they could stop it, because 99% of the time it's person to person transaction, not someone uploading a fic or art and running ads on it. Yet another community that has both free and paid content and has no problem with both existing.
Sure, some do, but the key is not all. It's ultimately an insoluble situation because in most cases it is unstable. Or rather, more unstable than 'traditional' lines of vocations. On a macro level, almost all jobs are unstable in their nature or as a byproduct of our decaying system, but some are far more wiggly. Paid works based on existing works is that kind of slope. Mods risk being the same.

My problem with this situation is because we have now let money be the central imperative here, you're going to see the community actually segment itself on just the creating side. Many communities now risk segmenting information and resources because money is involved; cooperation will be more difficult in such an environment, as it is in most areas where money is involved. If this can happen with contests that have money as a prize, you bet your ass it's going to happen when the sole goal is to make paper. And that is another thing the love of money will poison in this world, which kind of makes me wish for the whole system to crash faster, so we can come up with a more sensible social game.
 
Well, that was a problem before, wasn't it? It happened with Oblivion, Fallout 3, Fallout: New Vegas (to the point they screwed Obsidian up) and Skyrim. I honestly don't think they would change anything. If modders charge for fixing a game, they you should voice your concerns. I think charging for these kind of mods isn't fair at all. But we, as consumers, will dictate that. I only support paying mods where the modders actually create content.
That's what I'm doing right now.

Well, like I said, if it didn't work with Steam Workshop, Bethesda would create their own system, which could be even more restrictive. Hard to tell.
I'm just saying there are much better ways to do this.

Modding is work and of course it is a part of game development. Why do you think a lot of developers currently working on the industry started as modders? It was part of their portfolio.
People in pretty much every creative field have work in their portfolio that they weren't paid for. That's a much bigger discussion than what this thread is about. Especially when you consider that a lot of modding is done by "sampling" (to borrow a term from the music business, which faces many of the same IP issues) others' work.

And I don't see any prohibition on Steam Workshop.
Yet. This is all about precedent and who has what power.

Not talking about QA, I talked about experimenting mods and not liking them for personal reasons.
I'm not concerned about that, I can tell whether I would like a mod or not before I ever download it (assuming the modder did their job in properly explaining what the mod does - if they didn't, I wouldn't install it in the first place). The only reason I dump a mod I downloaded and installed was because it didn't work.

Ask players from Dragon Age and Battlefield if they like the idea of Frostbite not supporting mods?
I'm sure they'd love that, but they don't have the choice. Elder Scrolls players currently have that choice.

And about the second one, they're making the products they want to make and they are selling in a bad state because people continue to buy them. Not a modding-friendly franchise, but do you think that Ubisoft would continue to ship unfinished Assassin's Creed games if they didn't sell as much as they do?
And why should I be okay with this again?

And as for the third one, I don't think it discourages. The market will dictate it.
Nah, sorry. The market is ignorant and doesn't reflect my interests.
 
Fine with me. I never used mods at all because, frankly, there is too much garbage to shift through. Now, if I will see a top paid mod being bought by thousands of people than I guess it is quality and I will buy it as well.

Weird I know, but sometimes paid is better.
 
I have no problem with modders getting paid. I have a problem with people acting like this is the first avenue modders have to get paid. Beyond the donation thing you mentioned, there's nothing stopping modders from hosting their mods on their own websites behind a paywall.
skyrim's creation kit's license prohibits a business exchange for created mods for money except when specifically allowed under the Steam Workshop. technically you're allowed to ask for donations because then people are sponsoring your time but if you lock a specific content behind a paywall that's a breach of license. not that you're likely to be called out for it

skyrim's CK
You are only permitted to distribute the New Materials, without charge (i.e., on a strictly non-commercial basis) (except as set forth in Section 5 below), to other authorized users who have purchased the Product, solely for use with such users’ own authorized copies of such Product and in accordance with and subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement and all applicable laws. If You distribute or otherwise make available New Materials, You automatically grant to Bethesda Softworks the irrevocable, perpetual, royalty free, sublicensable right and license under all applicable copyrights and intellectual property rights laws to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, perform, display, distribute and otherwise exploit and/or dispose of the New Materials (or any part of the New Materials) in any way Bethesda Softworks, or its respective designee(s), sees fit. You also waive and agree never to assert against Bethesda Softworks or its affiliates, distributors or licensors any moral rights or similar rights, however designated, that You may have in or to any of the New Materials. If You commit any breach of this Agreement, Your right to use the Editor under this Agreement shall automatically terminate, without notice.
source sdk
You may not use the Content and Services for any purpose other than the permitted access to Steam and your Subscriptions, and to make personal, non-commercial use of your Subscriptions, except as otherwise permitted by this Agreement or applicable Subscription Terms
 
Yup, entirely up to the author. Anything using unlicensed material will be barred from monetisation without express approval, and any explicit mods will probably be outright rejected from the service. So free mods will still be around, though maybe with a bit less selection than before.

The question is: how will bigger mods be affected, and what will the price for a fully-loaded Skyrim end up being? The answer to this remains to be seen.
Well, Train Simulator with all its DLC costs 1000x Skyrim's sale price.
 
That's what I'm doing right now.
Then good. If you see a paid mod that just fixes things, then you're right to complain.

I'm just saying there are much better ways to do this.
It wouldn't stop modders from making every mod paid if they wanted to. Although I'm not sure if that would even be possible legally, especially with a game like Skyrim that uses a third-party engine and they would be profiting without authorization from the game's creators.

People in pretty much every creative field have work in their portfolio that they weren't paid for. That's a much bigger discussion than what this thread is about. Especially when you consider that a lot of modding is done by "sampling" (to borrow a term from the music business, which faces many of the same IP issues) others' work.
Exactly. But it doesn't have to be paid to be considered work. Oh, well, we could discuss this for ages and we probably couldn't ever agree. Different philosophies, I guess.

Yet. This is all about precedent and who has what power.
Sorry, I don't deal with speculation. It could happen. Or it couldn't. Every game from now on could drop mod support as well. But it's speculation.

And why should I be okay with this again?
Just an example that it happens because people buy. I'm not okay with it either. Which is why I don't buy them.
 
skyrim's creation kit's license prohibits a business exchange for created mods for money except when specifically allowed under the Steam Workshop. technically you're allowed to ask for donations because then people are sponsoring your time but if you lock a specific content behind a paywall that's a breach of license. not that you're likely to be called out for it
I'm aware. You can't truly force people to pay for mods unless Bethesda signs off on it (i.e. Bethesda is getting a cut) - which is why it's ridiculous to consider it a mod any longer if the original developer is getting paid for it.

Then good. If you see a free mod that just fixes things, then you're right to complain.
I'd rather complain before it happens, because at that point it will be a lot harder to undo.

It wouldn't stop modders from making every mod paid if they wanted to. Although I'm not sure if that would even be possible, especially with a game like Skyrim that uses a third-party engine.
It's not about what modders want or don't want. It's about Valve and Bethesda having a financial incentive (and the ability) to lock everything down unless you pay them whatever price they want to play the game.

Exactly. But it doesn't have to be paid to be considered work. Oh, well, we could discuss this for ages and we probably couldn't ever agree. Different philosophies, I guess.
If you consider it work and you're not getting paid for it, in the current work climate you should either 1) accept that it's going to provide value to you in the form of opening opportunities to get paid for future work, or 2) stop doing it. If it's not going to possibly get you paid in the future and you're doing it for free without truly enjoying it, you're a fool and you're wasting your time.

Sorry, I don't deal with speculation. It could happen. Or it couldn't. Every game from now on could drop mod support as well. But it's speculation.
That's cool, but I do. I'd rather not have everything go to shit and THEN try to fix it instead of preventing it from ever going to shit in the first place.

Just an example that it happens because people buy. I'm not okay with it either. Which is why I don't buy them.
I have no other option if I want to continue experiencing new content in the Elder Scrolls universe. Hell, there's not even a legitimate competitor set in another universe.
 
Sure, some do, but the key is not all. It's ultimately an insoluble situation because in most cases it is unstable. Or rather, more unstable than 'traditional' lines of vocations. On a macro level, almost all jobs are unstable in their nature or as a byproduct of our decaying system, but some are far more wiggly. Paid works based on existing works is that kind of slope. Mods risk being the same.

My problem with this situation is because we have now let money be the central imperative here, you're going to see the community actually segment itself on just the creating side. Many communities now risk segmenting information and resources because money is involved; cooperation will be more difficult in such an environment, as it is in most areas where money is involved. If this can happen with contests that have money as a prize, you bet your ass it's going to happen when the sole goal is to make paper. And that is another thing the love of money will poison in this world, which kind of makes me wish for the whole system to crash faster, so we can come with a more sensible social game.
I'd disagree that money wasn't the imperative before. If someone was angling for a job, then getting paid was already their goal. The original game was (likely) sold to you by a company that needed you to buy it and give money to justify making the game in the first place. Gaming is a 100% capitalism based field. Every single arcade game, which is how gaming got it's start in a popular way, was always sold to businesses with the word "profits" or "income" prominently used and promoted. Even the indiest of indie developers have to consider potential income when releasing a game on a new platform.

The "we're in it for the heart of it all" is cool and I have no problem with it. That community can still exist and still does exist and will continue to exist. If you feel your mod should be free, you can still release it for free. Ain't nothing wrong with that. The people that want to use it to get into game development or become an aftermarket DLC business shouldn't have to count their 1$ bills for their food budget solely for the "heart" of the community. They should be able to achieve stability on their way to the big time, instead of having to jump across the gigantic chasm and hoping they make it. You can love making games and make game content and get paid for it at the same time, because the best part of life is when something you love also keeps you alive and you can make it your main focus instead of your dream.

I don't think being it for the love of the craft and enjoying eating dinner are at odds.
 
I'm aware. You can't truly force people to pay for mods unless Bethesda signs off on it (i.e. Bethesda is getting a cut) - which is why it's ridiculous to consider it a mod any longer if the original developer is getting paid for it.
i'm just sayin that it actually is the first avenue that allows for a legitimate compensation of mods as a product and that hosting the mod behind your site's paywall would be stopped by the license if you were caught
 
I know people personally that pay rent with fan art and fanfic commissions. Vast majority of companies turn a blind eye to it even though they could stop it, because 99% of the time it's person to person transaction, not someone uploading a fic or art and running ads on it. Yet another community that has both free and paid content and has no problem with both existing.

edit: they do original art as their main work, but commissions get you some high dollars for single pieces.
I've no problem with people selling the things they've developed for a game. I'd be perfectly happy if we saw an independent mod scene making money (much like the example you mention). This platform is concerning to me, because I don't see it being run for the benefit of the community. The current revenue split clearly shows who this is really for.
 
i'm just sayin that it actually is the first avenue that allows for a legitimate compensation of mods as a product and that hosting the mod behind your site's paywall would be stopped by the license if you were caught
Unfortunately, these are key "if"s that are not certainties in the current Elder Scrolls modding environment - especially when you consider the free flow of information/code that make up mod dependencies, etc.

The "we're in it for the heart of it all" is cool and I have no problem with it. That community can still exist and still does exist and will continue to exist. If you feel your mod should be free, you can still release it for free. Ain't nothing wrong with that.
As long as Valve and Bethesda continue to allow it.
 
Sooo on the mod page I see Wet and Cold, which requires SKSE to work, and doesn't without ..... so how much do the SKSE guys get from that ?

Will be fun to see how all that evolves for Skyrim with all utilities and resource mods.
I bet people will try to make their mods more standalone in future games just to be able to sell them.

I'm not against the idea of people making some money for their work, but not being able to try a mod beforehand is an instant dealbreaker with how things work currently.

A donation system through Steam would have been ways ahead any existing solution, it would have solved many problems with people not being able to donate, and people just emptying the leftover in their wallets alone would have certainly brought quite some cash to the people involved.

As for the modders in this thread that are loudly entitled to money for their work, if you feel so strongly like that, why the fuck did you make and distribute content for free in the first place ? .....
 
Unfortunately, these are key "if"s that are not certainties in the current Elder Scrolls modding environment - especially when you consider the free flow of information/code that make up mod dependencies, etc.



As long as Valve and Bethesda continue to allow it.
I wonder what will their attitude be if someone just grabbed a really popular mod from nexus, put it on workshop as paid item and pass the "review".
 
I'm not against the idea of people making some money for their work, but not being able to try a mod beforehand is an instant dealbreaker with how things work currently.
Actually you're welcome to get a refund within 24 hours of your purchase.

Though you're likely to get in trouble if you abuse it.

Which...I mean damn that doesn't really make sense. Do the guys at Valve even play modded Skyrim? It's considered part of the game to install/uninstall mods every few minutes. A lot of people are going to be dinged for "abuse".

and it only gets converted to steam money so once you jump on the payment that's it. valve has your royalty money for good
Oh right. I forgot about that.
There's probably some legal issue why (prevent money laundering or something) but ehhh...it still stinks.
 
Actually you're welcome to get a refund within 24 hours of your purchase.

Though you're likely to get in trouble if you abuse it.

Which...I mean damn that doesn't really make sense. Do the guys at Valve even play modded Skyrim? It's considered part of the game to install/uninstall mods every few minutes. A lot of people are going to be dinged for "abuse".
and it only gets converted to steam money so once you jump on the payment that's it. valve has your royalty money for good
 
Sooo on the mod page I see Wet and Cold, which requires SKSE to work, and doesn't without ..... so how much do the SKSE guys get from that ?

Will be fun to see how all that evolves for Skyrim with all utilities and resource mods.
I bet people will try to make their mods more standalone in future games just to be able to sell them.

I'm not against the idea of people making some money for their work, but not being able to try a mod beforehand is an instant dealbreaker with how things work currently.

A donation system through Steam would have been ways ahead any existing solution, it would have solved many problems with people not being able to donate, and people just emptying the leftover in their wallets alone would have certainly brought quite some cash to the people involved.

As for the modders in this thread that are loudly entitled to money for their work, if you feel so strongly like that, why the fuck did you make and distribute content for free in the first place ? .....
The main problem with donations only is the legal part. If developers created all that it's being used in their game, then they can say "go have fun and we don't need any compensation" if they want to. But Skyrim uses Gamebyro, a third-party engine. Modders would be profiting by using something they didn't buy. I'm sure Bethesda has to pay fees for Gamebyro and that could be included in the share they're getting.

The same goes for the other person I was discussing with. Sorry I didn't quote you. I'm on my phone now and it's harder. Anyway, time to sleep.
 
But it isn't just one or another. Do both.

I didn't say it was one or another, my comment was about being told to vote with my wallet( which alot of supporters these days seem to spew) when we should be able to voice our concerns and naturally not support the practise by not buying it.(In this case voting with our wallets)

My whole post was about the concept that a lot of defenders seem to miss is that just voting with your wallet is not good enough these days, as for every person that does not buy another does.
 

Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Fine with me. I never used mods at all because, frankly, there is too much garbage to shift through. Now, if I will see a top paid mod being bought by thousands of people than I guess it is quality and I will buy it as well.

Weird I know, but sometimes paid is better.
You'd be hilariously wrong though, especially with all the EA stuff we've seen.

There's no need to sift when the fans can make a guide or must-haves.
 
I like how the two companies with millions of money take measures to make even more money from the pockets of already poor and strained consumers.

Valve is huge. Bethesda is huge. Why do they need to exploit the labor of modders and the consumers pockets to make even more?

Seriously, fuck their greed.
 
Fine with me. I never used mods at all because, frankly, there is too much garbage to shift through. Now, if I will see a top paid mod being bought by thousands of people than I guess it is quality and I will buy it as well.

Weird I know, but sometimes paid is better.
How would those top mods be any different from the top mods available now? Especially when some of the top mods now are just what's the most popular (big titties, for example), not necessarily what's actually the best.
 
The main problem with donations only is the legal part. If developers created all that it's being used in their game, then they can say "go have fun and we don't need any compensation" if they want to. But Skyrim uses Gamebyro, a third-party engine. Modders would be profiting by using something they didn't buy. I'm sure Bethesda has to pay fees for Gamebyro and that could be included in the share they're getting.
You can donate on the Nexus for a long time now, if there really is a problem you'd think they would have done something about it by now considering it's the biggest resource for mods out there.


Which reminds me, the admin of the nexus made a pretty good post about all this a while back when it was announced :
http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/news/12449/?
 
Actually you're welcome to get a refund within 24 hours of your purchase.
Oh right. I forgot about that.
There's probably some legal issue why (prevent money laundering or something) but ehhh...it still stinks.
You are welcome to apply for a refund within 24 hours they'll add your money 3 days later to your wallet for "security reasons".
 
It's really odd to me that people would rather argue, as a consumer, from the position of the corporation.
People on the first couple of pages, like salsashark, durante and so many others, think that this is a problem of players vs. modders, when in fact it is the players and modders vs. Valve & Bethesda.

The companies are exploiting other people's labor for their own profit, yet posters would love to run to their defense with invalid and shortsighted arguments about how great this is for modders, that creators should get paid for the work they do (which has nothing to do with the criticism), and that players/consumers should stop complaining about something good as this.
 
I think that big modders will stick to Nexus and making their own websites for donations, support and forum discussions; I suggest that too.

Why aren't people being extremely critical of Bethesda and Valve for profitting of the work of modders? 75 %? Seriously?
Because mods, with the exception of custom made textures/models/VA, are a result of using developer modding kits; that is why charging for mods wasn't completely legal until now. Yes 75% percent is dumb, and it is an exploitable market, but it could open up more possibilities with other publishers and it justifies Bethesda's own work.

I would be against paying for mods (except for very good ones that are justifiable), but if that means giving incentive to other developers to make modding kits, then I will support it in a way. This might change gaming PC--consoles will stick to DLCs LMAO.
 
People on the first couple of pages, like salsashark, durante and so many others, think that this is a problem of players vs. modders, when in fact it is the players and modders vs. Valve & Bethesda.

The companies are exploiting other people's labor for their own profit, yet posters would love to run to their defense with invalid and shortsighted arguments about how great this is for modders, that creators should get paid for the work they do (which has nothing to do with the criticism), and that players/consumers should stop complaining about something good as this.
probably not helped by the other posters going on about how monetization of modding will kill its soul
 
I can't fault them for doing things BSD-style (most of my projects are MIT licensed), but this does feel like a time when a copyleft license would be reasonable.
It's hard for me to fault them too, since Valve and Bethesda have millions of dollars and armies of lawyers to throw at them even if they have a case (which isn't a stone-cold certainty). It's just a sad situation.
 
Supporting mods are fine and users can already do this to creator by providing a paypal link. Seems like Valve want a part of their donations so they are starting this and i'm sure this is no benefit for creators because they get just 25% where Valve 75% from donations as paid mod now.
 
just in time for Fallout 4!


This is a terrible idea. Now we get microtransaction for fucking mods.
Consumers control the market; if players are not buying crappy, overpriced mods, they will force mod authors to be more reasonable when it comes to whether their mod should be free or a priced one.

We might see a huge wave of shitty, small, early-access mods that will disappear in few months once the market is stabilized; they will realize that their mods are not supposed to be priced ones. Think of it as the case with apple store apps.

Price-Model wise, the weird part is the mods that will cost the same amount of money as the game on sale.
I was thinking of that yesterday. I bought Tomb Raider 2013 for nearly the same amount of money as that stupid early-access animated Skyrim fishing mod is charging. I doubt that mod prices will exceed 2-5$ (high-end, polished mods); they are not published full games, and you are not supposed to make thousands of dollars off them.
 
This is a wrong way to incentivize modding. This exploits their labor and exploits the consumers. And Valve and Bethesda are one of the biggest companies in the games industry with hundreds of millions of dollars. Yet they find it necessary to squeeze every single penny out of their players and try to profit of the work of other hard-working individuals.

People should be furious about this.
 
Why aren't people being extremely critical of Bethesda and Valve for profitting of the work of modders? 75 %? Seriously?
Totally agree, the concept itself is great but when I saw that number I really had to laugh (should have rather cried because that's just sad) and I am surprised there isn't a really big outrage about that.
 
That was the point I was trying to make - the Steam Workshop has no apparent benefits for anyone, it hasn't shown any value as of yet, and I'm hard-pressed to think of a way in which it benefits content creators that isn't already being done better or more ethically by other sites like Nexus.
That seems very silly. About it not showing benefits yet: are you talking just about the Skyrim incarnation here? Because I'm sure the people making their living on DOTA items might disagree. And for Skyrim, it has hardly had the time to show any benefits as I'm sure you can see.

As for the Nexus somehow being more ethical: sorry, I don't see it.

Free mods are still a possibility, right?
Absolutely - some people just seem to like screaming about the sky falling.

People on the first couple of pages, like salsashark, durante and so many others, think that this is a problem of players vs. modders, when in fact it is the players and modders vs. Valve & Bethesda.
It is a problem of player expectation versus reality. And a problem of fear-mongering and concern trolling.

If people see no value in a given mod they won't pay, and after a short period of normalization nothing will change for modding. If people see significant value, then the modders creating that value will have more incentive and opportunity to create even better content.

Supporting mods are fine and users can already do this to creator by providing a paypal link. Seems like Valve want a part of their donations so they are starting this and i'm sure this is no benefit for creators because they get just 25% where Valve 75% from donations as paid mod now.
Fun fact: in my experience, less than 0.17% of all mod users donate. If you actually want to make a living or even just support yourself with modding (which I think is a bad idea, but I wouldn't want to stop anyone from trying!) then donations are entirely unsuitable.


And I guess I should repeat myself since people have taken my position out of context or even entirely misrepresented it over the past dozen pages or so -- in answer to: "Will you end up charging for DSfix someday if it became available through the workshop?"
No, never. I never even put any ads on my blog when it was getting massive views. But I'm a bit of a silly idealist (see also me releasing pretty much everything I ever made as open source) and I wouldn't presume to speak for everyone.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.