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Smash Ultimate - Hero banned from South Australia Smash Central tournaments

Should pro tournaments ban Hero?

  • Yes, ban Hero. Too random.

    Votes: 3 12.0%
  • No, wait and see how viable Hero really is.

    Votes: 14 56.0%
  • I'm just waiting for Banjo.

    Votes: 8 32.0%

  • Total voters
    25

iconmaster

Banned
Jul 18, 2013
7,466
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Specifically, banned from South Australia Smash Central tournaments.



Personally, I think it's too soon for this. The character has been out two weeks. We don't even know if competitive players are going to find him useful enough to bring to tournaments. (He has some real weaknesses: slow sword moves, opponent can see your spell list, no recovery if MP is exhausted.)

The arguments made by the SASC are:

  • Hero does not merely feature one or two random elements like Mr. Game & Watch or Peach, but is permeated with randomness.
  • Random kill power and mobility buffs as well as free Zoom recoveries have no counters

I'd rebut as follows:
  • Is a move really random if the opponent can see it coming? The Hero player must react to the character's randomness. The opponent does not have the same handicap, because the spell selection is apparent to both players. The exception is the random critical which the SASC considers acceptable in tournaments.
  • "Random kill power" is non-specific. Do they mean the critical hits, Kamikazee, Magic Burst or...? Kamikazee obviously has a huge drawback. Magic Burst can be shielded and Hero can be hit out of it, cancelling the spell. Shulk also has a mobility buff; there's hardly "no counter" for that.
  • The counter for Zoom is to get under Hero and be ready to hit him. Worse for Hero -- the player can't control where he lands.

Other points from the SASC:


We haven't discussed this little bit of Smash drama yet. What do you think?
 
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Whitesnake

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Jan 31, 2018
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DunDunDunpachi

Patient MembeR
Apr 18, 2018
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Smash nerds are the most butthurt "part" of the FGC. Seriously, this stuff is normal for every other fighting game. They underestimate how powerful the metagame is and overestimate their knowledge of the mechanics, therefore rushing to insist on how broken the character is.

They should go update frame data (which is what they're good for) and just play the game in the meanwhile. Remember when a bunch of Genjuros made it to the top of SamSho tourneys following launch this year? SNK did their job and rebalanced, but in the meanwhile I don't think a single tournament banned him or even considered banning him (I could be completely wrong here).
 
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The Pleasure

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Jan 8, 2019
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Smash nerds are the most butthurt "part" of the FGC. Seriously, this stuff is normal for every other fighting game. They underestimate how powerful the metagame is and overestimate their knowledge of the mechanics, therefore rushing to insist on how broken the character is.

They should go update frame data (which is what they're good for) and just play the game in the meanwhile. Remember when a bunch of Genjuros made it to the top of SamSho tourneys following launch this year? SNK did their job and rebalanced, but in the meanwhile I don't think a single tournament banned him or even considered banning him (I could be completely wrong here).
Don't call em fgc players. Call em by their name

Basement dwellers. Fgc players actually have jobs and take showers.
 
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Shouta

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Jun 6, 2004
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It's pretty silly to ban early especially when folks haven't had time to learn the match-up thoroughly. Crits and spells are pretty powerful but at the same time, the character has significant negatives built into the move set to counterbalance it. His regular attacks start-up slow, have coverage gaps, he relies on MP to use spells and needs to hit folks with his slow moves to regenerate it at a good pace, etc. It just sounds like the word random is scary rather than the character actually being overpowered.
 

Mista

Banned
Nov 21, 2014
20,413
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So basically Hero is banned because he’s RNG and not reliable? If that’s really the case then why did they even design him that way?

I find it still early for all that. We have to see Hero in the competitive scene because the players over there bring out the max of a character
 

Whitesnake

Banned
Jan 31, 2018
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So basically Hero is banned because he’s RNG and not reliable? If that’s really the case then why did they even design him that way?

Because it’s designed to be a kid’s party game, not a competitive fighting game.

He’s really not that unbalanced. His down-b is risky as all hell, you literally stand still while pulling up a menu of random moves and have to pick one that is both advantageous and doesn’t cost too much MP. His smash attacks have a 1/8 chance of doing double damage, but his smash attacks are laggh and risky even when uncharged, so if someone just tries smash attacks over and over hoping to a get a crit, they’ll get bodied.
 

Mista

Banned
Nov 21, 2014
20,413
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Because it’s designed to be a kid’s party game, not a competitive fighting game.

He’s really not that unbalanced. His down-b is risky as all hell, you literally stand still while pulling up a menu of random moves and have to pick one that is both advantageous and doesn’t cost too much MP. His smash attacks have a 1/8 chance of doing double damage, but his smash attacks are laggh and risky even when uncharged, so if someone just tries smash attacks over and over hoping to a get a crit, they’ll get bodied.
So they're actually banning him for being good or bad exactly? I got lost
 

Smasher89

Member
Sep 9, 2012
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Dont recall the moves name, but it looks like its the solution to edgeguarding (the giant blob, that only zoom or what the teleport move was called can avoid). A solved game even is usually not a good game, unless you want to play tic tac toe for hours. I'm all for stages like Onett but Hero seems way more powerful and rng heavy than even the strongest of items.
 

DeliciousDoc

Member
Sep 6, 2010
1,239
364
970
Canada
Don't they ban items and stages too? If they want to do their no item, last destination, fox only thing why make an article about it.
 

Nymphae

Banned
Jun 3, 2013
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Don't they ban items and stages too?

I never liked that about competitive Smash. Embrace your game's uniqueness. I think it's boring to watch Smash with one of the more fun aspects of the game locked away. When I used to play Smash with buds back in the day, we fucking loved items, it made for very exciting matches.
 
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Whitesnake

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So they're actually banning him for being good or bad exactly? I got lost

They’re banning him because, on paper, he sounds overpowered and RNG reliant.

However, the character has a lot of drawbacks and he has plenty of non-RNG options that are more useful than the RNG options.

It’s far, far too early to tell if this character is overpowered.
 

GreatnessRD

Member
Jun 30, 2017
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Another casual thing from the FGC. The character has been out two weeks. You have the same amount of time as everyone else to learn that character before tournaments. But no, they want 3 to 6 months so they can watch Youtube vids and do the exact same combos that everyone else does. But I'm not surprised, that's the norm in the FGC. New characters are normally banned.

Probably the same ones who support the LOSERS bracket. Biggest joke in tournament history!
 

Spukc

Member
Jan 24, 2015
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I still giggle when people think smash is a competitive fighter.
Its a fucking party game.
Ruined by loons
 
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Barakov

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This is peak salt. Part of what makes fighting games is seeing some broken shit being used. Honestly, that's half the fun.
 
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BlackTron

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Gah. I've always been a huge Smash Bros. fan but at this point I almost don't want to be one of those people.
 

zenspider

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I think it's too early to ban, but I think a ban could come when he starts taking tournaments.

He's got a bottomless bag of bullshit to pull from that takes stocks: multiple ways to dizzy, multiple unblockables at the ledge and off-stage. He can stall out a match with Bounce and Acceleratle. He's got a literal one touch insta-kill in Thwack, and a pretty sure-fire one in Magic Burst.

There is some skill spacing and literally reading faster than your opponent and playing his neutral is tough, and I think when that ceiling is reached plus his RNG, he'll be a tournament menace.
 

The Pleasure

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This is peak salt. Part of what makes fighting games is seeing some broken shit being used. Honestly, that's half the fun.
Stop... Mom! He's cheating! Maaaa stop him! Get out of my basement! Maaaaa!

The smashers screech.
 
S

SLoWMoTIoN

Unconfirmed Member
Because it’s designed to be a kid’s party game, not a competitive fighting game.



reading the OP and seeing the clip I'm not sure if that was supposed to be either a feature or a bug. But it sucks.
But you can dodge this attack that has a really small chance of hitting. So little it is a meme within DQ I think.
 
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ZeroGravity

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This is peak salt. Part of what makes fighting games is seeing some broken shit being used. Honestly, that's half the fun.
Well, this is the Smash community we're talking about, who took what was explicitly designed to be a fun party game and tried to make it a competitive fighting game.
 

iconmaster

Banned
Jul 18, 2013
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Well, this is the Smash community we're talking about, who took what was explicitly designed to be a fun party game and tried to make it a competitive fighting game.

Turning any activity into a competition is just a thing humans do. There’s a world championship for Dr. Mario. I would not have thought it possible, but there is.
 

lyan

Member
May 21, 2017
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I think it's too early to ban, but I think a ban could come when he starts taking tournaments.

He's got a bottomless bag of bullshit to pull from that takes stocks: multiple ways to dizzy, multiple unblockables at the ledge and off-stage. He can stall out a match with Bounce and Acceleratle. He's got a literal one touch insta-kill in Thwack, and a pretty sure-fire one in Magic Burst.

There is some skill spacing and literally reading faster than your opponent and playing his neutral is tough, and I think when that ceiling is reached plus his RNG, he'll be a tournament menace.
I think the ban would be inevitable, not everyone can read the English menu, or Japanese when the Japanese version is played in EVO Japan or Chinese in some Chinese tournament, etc.
 
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Bakkus

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It's pretty silly to ban early especially when folks haven't had time to learn the match-up thoroughly. Crits and spells are pretty powerful but at the same time, the character has significant negatives built into the move set to counterbalance it. His regular attacks start-up slow, have coverage gaps, he relies on MP to use spells and needs to hit folks with his slow moves to regenerate it at a good pace, etc. It just sounds like the word random is scary rather than the character actually being overpowered.
The problem with him is that you can play much worse than your opponent and still win.