So circumcision and non vaccination is child abuse

Redneckerz

Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
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#54
Nope. I left Facebook just for that reason. It’s kinda draining.
I mean, you certainly aint no stranger to it, as in this very thread you are not understanding what vaccinations do.

If your kid got well, and wouldn’t catch the disease again, what’s the point of a vaccination? It wouldn’t make sense for me to go get a chicken pox vaccine when I’ve already had it.
It means it got resistent to that one particular sub-virus. You do know that viruses can mutate, right? Which is why the flu still exists. When you get ill of that, your body battles the virus and makes it resistant to that one particular sub-virus. That does not mean you will never catch the flu again, just that you won't get the flu from that particular sub-virus again.

Also, we had this talk before so ill just put that under spoiler:
They do work, as the majority who does vaccinate will cover the minority who does not.

However, those who refuse to vaccinate beyond a medical reason and instead take an anti-vaxxer stance increase the risk that herd immunity cannot be guranteed any longer. See this for a visual representation:



So, by not vaccinating, you are increasing the risk for others. I understand you are trying to rationalize common sense through the lens of God, but you can perfectly believe in God and still vaccinate. What you do, and not only on this topic, but other topics aswell, is taking The Bible too literally and applying it to real life circumstances.

That by itself is a dangerous prospect, imo.

OT:
I think its rather much to spend this amount of cash on what essentially is a matter of principle regarding personal beliefs than a professional outing by a baker. The money spent could have been used for better promotion materials, to show what your bakery stands for. Instead of turing it into a positive thing, the Bakery chose to make it a negative one by going to court.

I do think vaccination should be mandatory, and precisely for the visual reason displayed above. You have an obligation to keep your kids safe. I know people from the Bible Belt (Its a place in the NL) who refused vaccination, claiming that if a child has to pass, its God's will.

Oddly enough these kids get infected with diseases that were rightly eradicated in our country, predominantly because of Herd Immunity.

Not vaccinating literally increases the risk that everybody else can get infected.

So my question to you is: Is it really worth risking the safety of your kids whilst simultaneously also increasing the risk that everyone else might be get affected by your decision? Is that a burden you would want to carry before the Grand Cross?
I like this place more when I don’t have to see nonsense threads like this
All we can do is raise a stink officially and rebuttal with facts on the thread itself. In this case its even more damning since Angular has the option of using hindsight but refused so far to do so.

My thoughts exactly, he doesn't seem to even know what a vaccine even is.

A vaccine is exposing yourself to a small amount of a virus so your body can build up your immune system against it, ie a totally natural process.
You know what's worse? He was given an explanation of why vaccinations is important through herd immunity, complete with graph, back in Oct 2018.

To put it into context, Angular's reply to that was: ''If you can’t see the problem with the pharmaceutical industry being able to lobby for and get laws passed for vaccines to be mandatory, while also being exempt from lawsuits anytime these vaccines cause death or illness, you’re not going to understand anything.'' and after my second reply, which is directly below that post, the topic is changed: ''Who’s actually afraid of gay people? That whole term is super retarded when you think about it. Even back when gays were “coming out” en masse, you were either gay or straight. Now being straight is almost like having a disease or mental illness. That’s one hell of an evolution.'' Emphasis mine. This demonstrates how Angular changes a topic as soon as factual evidence is presented. Either Angular has no rebuttal, has no interest in maintaining a discussion on the original topic, or Angular is purposefully derailing.

Based on the question in the last link, which has nothing to do with what i was posting before, it should be obvious. Even so, this linkchain shows that we are essentially getting into the same discussion as many of us had in October 2018 regarding vaccinations.
 

Kadayi

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#55
So IFTTT in OPs mind? Is there some Venn diagram of showing the correlation between advocates for these things being advocates for those things that you want to share with us OP or are you just jumping to bizarre conclusions?
 
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#56
Wow the assumptions here are wild and reds vendetta post is just scary. Take the flu vaccine which ends up giving you the flu because it is the flu so one you get sick anyway and two people end up getting sick again, WHATS THE POINT? If you’re given a shot for chicken pox, therefore you’ve had it already and supposedly shouldn’t get it again, WHY ARE YOU AFRAID? what’s that? Because you can get it again? Oh strains mutate every year? So like I said in an earlier post, they only work half the time. Why would you purposely make yourself ill or risk making yourself ill when chances are you could get ill again anyway? Talk about drinking the kool aid. That’s just more reason why these things really aren’t comparable. Would you expose your child to little bits of cyanide here an there? No. Who in their right mind would say yes to having the flu, chickenpox, measles and H1N1 all at the same time, then another set of diseases after you’re all better from that?
 
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#57
Wow the assumptions here are wild and reds vendetta post is just scary. Take the flu vaccine which ends up giving you the flu because it is the flu so one you get sick anyway and two people end up getting sick again, WHATS THE POINT? If you’re given a shot for chicken pox, therefore you’ve had it already and supposedly shouldn’t get it again, WHY ARE YOU AFRAID? what’s that? Because you can get it again? Oh strains mutate every year? So like I said in an earlier post, they only work half the time. Why would you purposely make yourself ill or risk making yourself ill when chances are you could get ill again anyway? Talk about drinking the kool aid. That’s just more reason why these things really aren’t comparable. Would you expose your child to little bits of cyanide here an there? No. Who in their right mind would say yes to having the flu, chickenpox, measles and H1N1 all at the same time, then another set of diseases after you’re all better from that?
If you could by chance ingest a deadly amount of cyanide, then this would be reasonable.

I'm sorry but you are delusional and/or willfully ignorant. It seems to me that your capacity for reasoning is defective. It's like you can't keep track of the facts and how they are related. That would explain your flat earth, water space nonsense. I don't really have a problem with that because it's so obviously wrong that your ideas are not that contagious. Unfortunately, diseases ARE contagious.
 
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ArchaeEnkidu

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#58
I know you are a troll, Angular. You are very, very attached to your little persona that you have built and probably have given people a few chuckles, but I would urge you to cut back on the satire and move on to being a decent person of the forum. Could always use more instead of... this.
 
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#59
Yes, chopping bits off babies without consent and putting them at risk of terrible disease is child abuse. As is whatever is going on in that photo...

I'm not sure what's going on here?
 

Redneckerz

Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
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#60
Wow the assumptions here are wild and reds vendetta post is just scary.
  • Is it scary that i hold you accountable to your own words?
  • Is it scary that you seemingly forgot?
  • Is it scary that once more you ignore plain facts?
  • Is it scary that one of Michael Jackson's songs is in fact called Is It Scary?
You do not understand the basic principles of herd immunity or physics yet you are very quick to ask questions about them. Why not try to understand the basic principles first and work from there?

Take the flu vaccine which ends up giving you the flu because it is the flu so one you get sick anyway and two people end up getting sick again, WHATS THE POINT?
Have you heard of the theory that to get immune from certain viruses, people inject you with a incredibly filtered dosage of the virus, enough so your body can make anti-cells for them? Its like barging a castle with 10 soldiers instead of 10.000.

In both cases the castle has to defend itself and strengthen its fortifications. Except in the latter case it will make you ill and might be dangerous for your health, and in the former case the soldiers are easily outnumbered.


The castle then has a natural defence against that one particular soldier and equipment. The next flu soldier might be more advanced or operate with different tactics. Then you could repeat the cycle again, but in the case of flu, you generally do not have to since most flu is relatively harmless compared to the diseases that you need the state vaccinations for.

This is literally the most simple visual analogy i can give to you. If you fail to understand this theory, then i am sorry, but then your levels of comprehension are below the minimum threshold in order to make any sense.

Why would you purposely make yourself ill or risk making yourself ill when chances are you could get ill again anyway?
Because in the case of Chicken Pox, there are far less variants out there then say the flu. That little variants, that it is worthwhile to build resistance to them by way of injecting yourself with a very mild dosage of the disease. The body will then go through the stages as presented in bold above.

I know you are a troll, Angular. You are very, very attached to your little persona that you have built and probably have given people a few chuckles, but I would urge you to cut back on the satire and move on to being a decent person of the forum. Could always use more instead of... this.
Its like @OnThePathToWisdom denying Moon theories but when asked what certain components used to get there mean they admit they don't know. Admittely, i didn't expect that so props to that. But it also demonstrates how broken the logic used is, along with the intense focus on pictures and pictures alone.

If you don't even know what merit individual components used in space mean, why take the mental hoop to declare that most of it is BS? You literally don't know what is going on on a practical level yet you denounce it anyways. I am not even talking mathematical or scientific principles here, i am just talking about what components were used and what it means.
 
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#62
No, what’s scary is the amount of energy you’ve chosen to direct at me instead of the real issue. If a man were drowning and I happened to post ANYTHING while he were in your line of sight, it’s like these odd feelers go off behind your knees and around your knuckles and you’d immediately find a way to respond to my posts instead of saving his life.
 

Redneckerz

Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
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#63
No, what’s scary is the amount of energy you’ve chosen to direct at me instead of the real issue.
I have tackled the real issue of the OP, and have been tackling the vaccine issue aswell.

What you do, is deflecting, not arguing in good faith. If you were arguing in good faith, you would have looked at the cited posts and made a point based on that.

But instead all you do is deflecting. And then throw in the snark that i am not tackling the real issue. Sure Jan.

If a man were drowning and I happened to post ANYTHING while he were in your line of sight, it’s like these odd feelers go off behind your knees and around your knuckles and you’d immediately find a way to respond to my posts instead of saving his life.
Nah man, i would be making an attempt to save his skin.

You? You would first be reading scripture and asking yourself the question if drowning is actually drowning and not just some make believe fairytale that we are being told since Tabula Rasa.
 
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#64
No, what’s scary is the amount of energy you’ve chosen to direct at me instead of the real issue. If a man were drowning and I happened to post ANYTHING while he were in your line of sight, it’s like these odd feelers go off behind your knees and around your knuckles and you’d immediately find a way to respond to my posts instead of saving his life.
Are your kids vaccinated?
 
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Why thank you. We’re witnessing the seeds of godlessness bloom and you’re worried about vaccines that don’t work half the time but if that’s what you feel then hey.
North Carolina chickenpox outbreak blamed on vaccination exemptions

What disease has been eradicated through vaccination?

One strain of polio was eradicated in the wild in 1999. But a few cases have been popping up because of an old vaccine. The global push to immunize children against polio has been an incredible success, reducing polio cases by 99.9 percent.
 
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Redneckerz

Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
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#68
No, my 3 little plague rats aren’t. Lock me up and throw away the key. Maybe when they’re 18 or 21 or whatever other arbitrary number you wanna throw out there they can decide to get vaccinated on their own after debating the pluses and minuses of the decision.
Good thing herd immunity will aid that not everybody else gets sick. Thank them for your decision not to vaccinate. Its because of others that you and your kids arent dying of diseases, nor everyone else.

Thanks to the collective efforts of others, you can be irresponsible. Keep that in mind.
 
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#69
If my children aren’t sick, how anyone else going to get sick? You’re assuming they’d get sick which is kinda odd. Wouldn’t you want the opposite? Where do these diseases come from anyway? Weren’t pox curses on people?
 

ArchaeEnkidu

Vincit qui se vincit
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#70
No, my 3 little plague rats aren’t. Lock me up and throw away the key. Maybe when they’re 18 or 21 or whatever other arbitrary number you wanna throw out there they can decide to get vaccinated on their own after debating the pluses and minuses of the decision.
Okay, taking off the kiddie gloves with you and your trolling shtick.

Assuming you aren't actually using satire: You are actively endangering your children and the children they interact with. Your actions are repugnant and you should feel deeply ashamed of yourself. You do not know better than over two hundred years of peer reviewed science. I do hope your children are given the help they need as you are unfit to parent them.
 
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#71
Who the hell are you to judge the entirety of the life I’ve had with my children based on one trivial thing alone? Kiss my ass with that mess. You don’t know me or who I am.
 
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ArchaeEnkidu

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#72
Who the hell are you to judge the entirety of the life I’ve had with my children based on one trivial thing alone? Kiss my ass with that mess. You don’t know me or who I am.
There is nothing trivial about child endangerment, which is exactly what you are doing by proudly proclaiming you are anti-vax and refuse to vaccinate them.
 
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#73
Except it’s not child endangerment. If my children were in any danger, they wouldn’t be here now would they. You speak as if I’m dangling my kids over a cage with pox infected people threatening to drop them in. Quite far from reality.
 
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#74
No, my 3 little plague rats aren’t. Lock me up and throw away the key. Maybe when they’re 18 or 21 or whatever other arbitrary number you wanna throw out there they can decide to get vaccinated on their own after debating the pluses and minuses of the decision.
Assuming they live long enough, and aren't unfortunate enough to contract certain potentially fatal diseases that used to be responsible for the death of a huge percentage of children... until vaccines were invented.

For their sakes, I hope they don't. It would teach you a lesson, but I'm not so heartless than I think satisfying my ego is more important than the possible death of a child.

Unlike yourself.
 
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#76
God protects my children. Not you or anyone else.
Well, God tried too.
God works in mysterious ways, and He heard the prayers of the people to save their children from sickness. So He created the men and women that discovered germs and bacteria and how they make people sick. And from there to the eventual discovery of Penicillin and other medicine that we use to keep our children from suffering the same way those families in the past did.
 
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#77
God protects my children. Not you or anyone else.
Ell ooh ell.

Pretty sure factually proven science says otherwise.

Explain the incredibly high frequency of infant deaths before the discovery of vaccines then? Go on, we're waiting.

What about the kids that do die from the illnesses? Was "God" not looking out for them? Or were they just nonbelievers?

Indoctrination is quite the drug.
 
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ArchaeEnkidu

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#78
God protects my children. Not you or anyone else.
God protects children by giving humans the ability to defend against invading pathogens via vaccinations created through scientifical research. If God truly protects your children, he would have them removed from your care and given the medical help they need.
 
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God protects children by giving humans the ability to defend against invading pathogens via vaccinations created through scientifical research. If God truly protects your children, he would have them removed from your care and given the medical help they need.
Ell ooh ell.

Pretty sure factually proven science says otherwise.

Explain the incredibly high frequency of infant deaths before the discovery of vaccines then? Go on, we're waiting.

What about the kids that do die from the illnesses? Was "God" not looking out for them? Or were they just nonbelievers?

Indoctrination is quite the drug.
Well, God tried too.
God works in mysterious ways, and He heard the prayers of the people to save their children from sickness. So He created the men and women that discovered germs and bacteria and how they make people sick. And from there to the eventual discovery of Penicillin and other medicine that we use to keep our children from suffering the same way those families in the past did.
https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/287659/origin-of-a-pox-curse-on-both-their-houses
 
Jun 9, 2004
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If my children aren’t sick, how anyone else going to get sick? You’re assuming they’d get sick which is kinda odd. Wouldn’t you want the opposite? Where do these diseases come from anyway? Weren’t pox curses on people?
Your kids will likely be fine. Just don't congregate with other anti-vaccination folks. Or travel. Or let your kids play outside if they have cuts or bruises.

You spoke of fear. I'm not afraid of getting sick, but enjoy reducing my chances of contracting something preventable by being vaccinated. Now maybe you can answer the question I posed to you:

Why are you afraid of the poison you think the doctors want to inject into you?
 
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#81
It’s been a rabbit hole pretty much. At first it was the autism thing. Then it was because I don’t understand how someone can force you to take them. That’s not anyone else’s decision to make for someone. So we can be for assisted suicide but not against vaccines? Makes sense. And I’m against assisted suicide for the record. Then I met someone that was involved in the film “vaxxed” and it raised a lot of questions.
 
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"Polio. Polio vaccine was licensed in the United States in 1955. During 1951-1954, an average of 16,316 paralytic polio cases and 1879 deaths from polio were reported each year (9,10). Polio incidence declined sharply following the introduction of vaccine to less than 1000 cases in 1962 and remained below 100 cases after that year. In 1994, every dollar spent to administer oral poliovirus vaccine saved $3.40 in direct medical costs and $2.74 in indirect societal costs (14). The last documented indigenous transmission of wild poliovirus in the United States occurred in 1979. Since then, reported cases have been either vaccine-associated or imported. As of 1991, polio caused by wild-type viruses has been eliminated from the Western Hemisphere (16). Enhanced use of the inactivated polio vaccine is expected to reduce the number of vaccine-associated cases, which averaged eight cases per year during 1980-1994 (17)."

"Measles. Measles vaccine was licensed in the United States in 1963. During 1958-1962, an average of 503,282 measles cases and 432 measles-associated deaths were reported each year (9-11). Measles incidence and deaths began to decline in 1965 and continued a 33-year downward trend. This trend was interrupted by epidemics in 1970-1972, 1976-1978, and 1989-1991. In 1998, measles reached a provisional record low number of 89 cases with no measles-associated deaths (13). All cases in 1998 were either documented to be associated with international importations (69 cases) or believed to be associated with international importations (CDC, unpublished data, 1998). In 1994, every dollar spent to purchase measles-containing vaccine saved $10.30 in direct medical costs and $3.20 in indirect societal costs (7). "

"Vaccines are one of the greatest achievements of biomedical science and public health"


Oh man OP destroying himself with is own links :messenger_tears_of_joy::messenger_tears_of_joy::messenger_tears_of_joy::messenger_tears_of_joy::messenger_tears_of_joy::messenger_tears_of_joy:
 
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Not really. The number of deaths is surprising low considering people think of not vaccinating akin to bringing on a new plague. Cancer and diabetes are probably new plagues but they’d never say that. Far more people die from automobile accidents.
 
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#91
So, "bad things A and B are not bad, because obscure bad thing C exists as well"? You are a genius, @AngularSaxophone.

EDIT: I see, you continue that impeccable logic with your recent discovery:
Not really. The number of deaths is surprising low considering people think of not vaccinating akin to bringing on a new plague. Cancer and diabetes are probably new plagues but they’d never say that. Far more people die from automobile accidents.
So, "terrible sickness A" is not so bad, because there's also "terrible sickness B". You are on a roll!
 
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Here is the point. Do not decide for your child. Circumcision can be done if he wants it. And for the other. It should be mandatory for chidren and then later he can decide for him/her self
 
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#94
I’m not anti-vaccine, and my kids are vaccinated just fine. However, I do think Big Pharma is exceedingly dishonest, and the promise of an expensive vaccine that every child in America takes without question would prove a tempting target. I think there are vaccines that haven’t been proven to work, that were pushed through the FDA and lobbied for, and which thrive on people’s inability to question this without being labeled as a crazy anti-vaxxer.

I’m thinking the HPV vaccine in specific, as it is being given to 35 million people to prevent a disease that only kills 4,000 people a year, may actually increase the chance of cervical cancer, and hasn’t even been proven to work. It is mandatory in some states where millions have been spent lobbying for the vaccine. The vaccine is multiple shots over six months, costs around $400, and isn’t always covered by insurance. This is all information reported by NPR, so this isn’t from some dark corner of the internet. It’s public knowledge.

I think the discussion about vaccinations can’t just be framed as crazy vs sane, anti-all vaccines vs pro-all vaccines. There is definitely some shady shit going on with Big Pharma, and the shame people try to impose on the people who question them seems oddly confrontational. We need to acknowledge that Big Pharma’s mistrust has been earned (don’t even get me started on the fraud revolving around breast cancer), but that the trust many vaccines enjoy has also been earned. We need to acknowledge that while vaccination is a net good, there can be shady shit going on that also needs to be called out and that not all vaccines are of equal quality and effect.
 
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#95
I’m not anti-vaccine, and my kids are vaccinated just fine. However, I do think Big Pharma is exceedingly dishonest, and the promise of an expensive vaccine that every child in America takes without question would prove a tempting target. I think there are vaccines that haven’t been proven to work, that were pushed through the FDA and lobbied for, and which thrive on people’s inability to question this without being labeled as a crazy anti-vaxxer.

I’m thinking the HPV vaccine in specific, as it is being given to 35 million people to prevent a disease that only kills 4,000 people a year, may actually increase the chance of cervical cancer, and hasn’t even been proven to work. It is mandatory in some states where millions have been spent lobbying for the vaccine. The vaccine is multiple shots over six months, costs around $400, and isn’t always covered by insurance. This is all information reported by NPR, so this isn’t from some dark corner of the internet. It’s public knowledge.

I think the discussion about vaccinations can’t just be framed as crazy vs sane, anti-all vaccines vs pro-all vaccines. There is definitely some shady shit going on with Big Pharma, and the shame people try to impose on the people who question them seems oddly confrontational. We need to acknowledge that Big Pharma’s mistrust has been earned (don’t even get me started on the fraud revolving around breast cancer), but that the trust many vaccines enjoy has also been earned. We need to acknowledge that while vaccination is a net good, there can be shady shit going on that also needs to be called out and that not all vaccines are of equal quality and effect.
It would of course be silly to say "whenever there exists a vaccination for some sickness, you should take it". There should be a comparison of gains and losses through the vaccination. For HPV, which is something that is only indirectly linked to significant issues which then again are pretty rare deceases and it is not even proven to be effective? Well, probably not the best of all vacines to take. For pox, where the vaccine is effective but the sickness is extinct (as long as the US and Russia do not decide to unleash it on us again)? It would be pretty stupid to take the vaccine. But for polio, measels, hepatitis B? Definitely worth it. For our son, we just follow the recommendations of the Robert Koch Institute in Germany. With the exception of HPV, that is, unless the children want this specific vaccination - it would be given at an age where they can understand themselves anyway.

Being against the most effective preemptive form of medicine in general is just beyond stupid.
 
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#99
It would of course be silly to say "whenever there exists a vaccination for some sickness, you should take it". There should be a comparison of gains and losses through the vaccination. For HPV, which is something that is only indirectly linked to significant issues which then again are pretty rare deceases and it is not even proven to be effective? Well, probably not the best of all vacines to take. For pox, where the vaccine is effective but the sickness is extinct (as long as the US and Russia do not decide to unleash it on us again)? It would be pretty stupid to take the vaccine. But for polio, measels, hepatitis B? Definitely worth it. For our son, we just follow the recommendations of the Robert Koch Institute in Germany. With the exception of HPV, that is, unless the children want this specific vaccination - it would be given at an age where they can understand themselves anyway.
I think there's an implicit element to your post which indicates that you think it should be the parent's choice. You may not agree with their choice, but it definitely sounds like you allow them to make it. I may be wrong. But I think that's the first step towards having a real discussion on this. To so many people, not vaccinating your children is a form of child abuse that means you deserve to have your children taken away from you. That only pushes the anti-vaxxers further away from vaccinations, but I guess it gives people online a little boost to their self esteem at somebody else's expense, so that makes it okay.

I think the HPV vaccine is the most obviously bad, but it isn't the only vaccine that we give our children that has not been properly vetted. I don't think distrusting vaccines - as a product of a corrupt and greedy industry, not the theory of vaccination itself - is all that unreasonable position to have. I think that should be the starting point for this discussion, honestly. Okay, you don't trust Big Pharma and Big Pharma says you need to inject your children with this stuff... what do you do next? If the only answer provided is, "implicitly trust Big Pharma", then I think there's always going to be anti-vaxxers and no progress will ever be made.

Being against the most effective preemptive form of medicine in general is just beyond stupid.
I think that, in this day and age, where the media is basically corporate controlled, it's impossible to be properly informed about this kind of stuff. Like if I lived in a state where Big Pharma spent millions promoting the HPV vaccine, would my opinion on it be different? Almost certainly. All the doctors would tell me it was a good thing (after being paid to do so), the school system would recommend or even require it (after being paid to do so), legislation would be passed (after being paid for), all the online articles would say it was a good thing (many written at the direction of Big Pharma), and generally, I'd be trapped in a bubble of misinformation.

Anti-vaxxers aren't bad people. They legitimately want what is best for their children. It's just that the bubble has popped for them. They know that misinformation is out there. They just find it impossible to figure out what is what. Usually, they'll latch onto a single source they trust (even if that source is Jenny McCarthy) and assume they are informed in a way they, themselves, can't be. I don't think a discussion on vaccinations can be had without the implicit understanding that anti-vaxxers love their children so much, they don't want to risk harming them. That risk might be over stated, or they may be acting on bad information, but they aren't doing it just to be assholes.
 
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I think there's an implicit element to your post which indicates that you think it should be the parent's choice.
Actually, no, I do not think it should be, but it is so it is my responsibility to inform myself and take the best steps possible from my point of information.
You may not agree with their choice, but it definitely sounds like you allow them to make it. I may be wrong. But I think that's the first step towards having a real discussion on this. To so many people, not vaccinating your children is a form of child abuse that means you deserve to have your children taken away from you. That only pushes the anti-vaxxers further away from vaccinations, but I guess it gives people online a little boost to their self esteem at somebody else's expense, so that makes it okay.
Taking the children away is severe. If such a step was considered, the vaccines should first be made obligatory. Which, for some vaccines, would be reasonable. Failure to comply (without a good medical reason) could lead to fines and to forcible vaccinations, but taking the child away from the parents for this would be overshooting. Even parents who decide not to vaccinate their children at all don't do that out of ill intentions (usually), but thinking they are taking the best possible steps for their children. Though I am absolutely sure that a general decision against vaccinations is a harmful (abusive?) decision, it is very isolated, no further harm to the child is to be expected if the vaccination is enforced and the child remains with the parents. So taking the children from the parents would be a stupid decision.

I think the HPV vaccine is the most obviously bad, but it isn't the only vaccine that we give our children that has not been properly vetted. I don't think distrusting vaccines - as a product of a corrupt and greedy industry, not the theory of vaccination itself - is all that unreasonable position to have. I think that should be the starting point for this discussion, honestly. Okay, you don't trust Big Pharma and Big Pharma says you need to inject your children with this stuff... what do you do next? If the only answer provided is, "implicitly trust Big Pharma", then I think there's always going to be anti-vaxxers and no progress will ever be made.
The answer is that independent research institutes (state-funded) need to evaluate the vaccines and classify them as "necessity" (law-enforced), "recommended" (parent's choice), "not recommended" (parent's choice) or harmful (illegal to give).