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So next gen 3rd party games are gonna target a 4TF 1440p baseline and we're ok with this because $299?

megreotsugua

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It’s 1440p and 30fps because the PS5 is not powerful enough to move it at 4K and 60 fps.

Then how do expect a 4TF, little RAM, slow I/O xss to fare?

1440p upscaled to 4K, and Digital Foundry couldn't tell it was 1440p anyway because of how good the upscaler is. This is the kind of next-gen game we should expect. As for the fps, Epic said they will continue to optimize for the PS5 to achieve 60fps.
 
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ZywyPL

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We are reaching peak concern trolling levels.

Seeing the reactions of the Sony fanboys, means that MS is in the right path with the Series S.


From the Series S meme thread:




Just imagine how many parents will buy their kids who want to play Minecraft, Fortnite etc. the Series S instead of any of the other console, that 300$ instead of 500-600$ will do the job in pushing many many consoles to the households.
 

Phrixotrichus

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I’m sure a lot of games are going to be 4K on the bigger consoles, some even AAA games too.
Ofc.....but at 4k / 30 let alone 60 we simply can`t expect a generational leap in visual fidelity. That´s why we already start hearing about different modes like "1440p high graphics" for some games.
4k / 30+ for a large scope game with all the RT splendor activated, massively increased object density etc is just unrealistic for a 12tf~turing level GPU, let alone a 10TF one.
What´s a 4tf box like the XSS going to do when the XSX would have to drop down to ~1440p to get that next gen look across?
AMD doesn´t seem to have something on the level of DLSS to upscale below FHD material with good results.
 
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genesisblock

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A developer weighs in on Xbox Series S. Pretty much series S won't be holding Series X back.


If I'm reading this right, that would mean if games were built so densely for the XSX that would push it to 1440p by default would render the S version completely redundant as it wouldn't be practical to lowering the resolution back to pre 720p era days.
 
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Duallusion

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I would hazard a guess MS actually, y'know, talked to devs when designing Series S and they told them what it needed to have to achieve their goals (easy S/X "ports" without any sacrifices beyond resolution and some graphical features) and MS' goals (cheaper SKU to target a wider market with).
 
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Ofc.....but at 4k / 30 let alone 60 we simply can`t expect a generational leap in visual fidelity. That´s why we already start hearing about different modes like "1440p high graphics" for some games.
4k / 30+ for a large scope game with all the RT splendor activated, massively increased object density etc is just unrealistic for a 12tf~turing level GPU, let alone a 10TF one.
What´s a 4tf box like the XSS going to do when the XSX would have to drop down to ~1440p to get that next gen look across?
AMD doesn´t seem to have something on the level of DLSS to upscale below FHD material with good results.
720-900p boom done.
 

megreotsugua

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4TF for a 4 times less resolution are actually more much efficient than 10 teraflops.

Add a better CPU and you pretty much have a better perfomance.

That is if the devs target 4K natively on the PS5. UE5 targeted 1440p upscaled to 4K. And Digital Foundry couldn't tell it was 1440p.

That's just the start. If anything, this XSS console will act as the Xone S to Xone X. XSX will be a 4k native renderer of XSS games. Too bad it's a waste of gpu resources.

Meanwhile at Sony, first party devs including 3rd party devs using UE5 is guaranteed to use the PS5 power to show better looking games instead of more native pixels. That's guaranteed. We don't know about other publishers and devs too if they will take advantage of the fact that there's nothing holding the PS5 back. But it's a shame if PS5 will be held back by Xss too.
 
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Phrixotrichus

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720-900p boom done.
Congrats on not reading what you answer to....
=> "AMD doesn´t seem to have something on the level of DLSS to upscale below FHD material with good results. "

720p in 2025 with 4k TVs being the vast majority...... k :messenger_tears_of_joy: :messenger_tears_of_joy: :messenger_tears_of_joy: :messenger_tears_of_joy:
 
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Sorc3r3r

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Congrats on not reading what you answer to....
=> "AMD doesn´t seem to have something on the level of DLSS to upscale below FHD material with good results. "

720p in 2025 with 4k TVs being the vast majority...... k :messenger_tears_of_joy: :messenger_tears_of_joy: :messenger_tears_of_joy: :messenger_tears_of_joy:

Ah, nah, who cares let's play 240p.
It's fine! Look how beautifully our engine scale back!
 

Bernd Lauert

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Then how do expect a 4TF, little RAM, slow I/O xss to fare?

1440p upscaled to 4K, and Digital Foundry couldn't tell it was 1440p anyway because of how good the upscaler is. This is the kind of next-gen game we should expect. As for the fps, Epic said they will continue to optimize for the PS5 to achieve 60fps.

If the optimize it so that it can run at 1440p on the PS5, it can probably run at 1080p on the XSS with some minor tweaks.

And why do you say the XSS has slow I/O?
 
Jun 1, 2016
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Congrats on not reading what you answer to....
=> "AMD doesn´t seem to have something on the level of DLSS to upscale below FHD material with good results. "

720p in 2025 with 4k TVs being the vast majority...... k :messenger_tears_of_joy: :messenger_tears_of_joy: :messenger_tears_of_joy: :messenger_tears_of_joy:
Oh I read just fine. You saying something doesn't make it true.
Yeah on something they paid 300$ for 5 years ago seems like they got what they paid for. I bet most gamepass games will run just fine in 2025.
 

Phrixotrichus

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Oh I read just fine. You saying something doesn't make it true.
Please enlighten us as to what miracle product AMD has up its sleeve to match DLSS 2.0....because you seem to be the only one who knows about it.

Yeah on something they paid 300$ for 5 years ago seems like they got what they paid for. I bet most gamepass games will run just fine in 2025.
:messenger_tears_of_joy::messenger_tears_of_joy::messenger_tears_of_joy::messenger_tears_of_joy:
K so games will not change with that new gen at all...Because that`s how console gens work, right?
 
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Please enlighten us as to what miracle product AMD has up its sleeve to match DLSS 2.0....because you seem to be the only one that knows about it.

:messenger_tears_of_joy::messenger_tears_of_joy::messenger_tears_of_joy::messenger_tears_of_joy:
Why does it have to match anything? It's the cheap box. Want higher res. Pay more money. This box is not for you I can tell so maybe stfu about it? Your comments are about as useless as the op.
 

Phrixotrichus

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Why does it have to match anything? It's the cheap box. Want higher res. Pay more money. This box is not for you I can tell so maybe stfu about it? Your comments are about as useless as the op.
MS just made this box the next gen base........are you too dense to realize the consequences? You can`t sell games that run or look like shit on that thing because it will be in millions of households....
Something like 720p in 2025 is simply not an option if it looks like....720p.
 
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93xfan

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It's so close it won't even matter. It's the same family CPU with a very slightly clock speed disadvantage. You barely get any difference on PC with that disparity of clock speeds.

depends on how much it is lowered by Smart Shift when the system needs a GPU advantage.
 
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MS just made this box the next gen base........are you too dense to realize the consequences? You can`t sell games that run or look like shit on that thing because it will be in millions of households....
Something like 720p in 2025 is simply not an option if it looks like....720p.
So now software upscaling can't improve in 5 years? Isn't ms working on software ml upscaling? They are also working on cloud upscaling. There is no consequence to the S. only silly people trying to spread fud to confuse dumb people.
 

93xfan

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What's the worst that could happen then? Sony would have to work harder to compete? Proper PS1/2/3 BC? Sony put more effort into their first party output in the PS3 days.

One can only hope.

Maybe they’ll be better about leaving servers up as well.
 

Phrixotrichus

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So now software upscaling can't improve in 5 years?
In the future everything will be better, guaranteed......you`ve watched too many Phil Spencer interviews.

Isn't ms working on software ml upscaling? They are also working on cloud upscaling.
:messenger_tears_of_joy::messenger_tears_of_joy::messenger_tears_of_joy: ah, the power of the cloud. Where have we heard that before...
But, yes, I sure hope that MS ands/or AMD are working on a software solution here, because they already really blew it from a hardware perspective. If Nvidia can do DLSS a company like MS or AMD should be able to get to that point, too.

There is no consequence to the S. only silly people trying to spread fud to confuse dumb people.
"everyone with a different opinion is stupid"....... ever heard of the Dunning Kruger syndrome?
 
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AphexTwunt

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Just imagine the salt if the XBSS performance in multiplats at the lower resolution was equal to or better than the PS5 - can't wait for the first batch of DF videos.
 
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KungFucius

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This OP shows no comprehension of engineering design or trade offs. FFS make this shit stop. You don't have to target minimum specs if the specs scale. If one system has 12TF and the other has 4TF with the same HW outside of that ( possibly with some scaling) then you can make 1 product and scale it down to the lower spec unit by reducing the res and turning off some effect. This is basic engineering. This is why there are product lines and why you can pay more for better performance.

What is more likely?

A. Game devs optimize the design of the game to maximize performance on the low end then try to scale it up to the high end. Since they only designed for 1440p with (less gfx effects, no ray tracing?) they will then have to work hard to try to add higher res textures and work out the issues with the higher end gfx effects. This is the game is held back model.

B. Devs design for the max performance on max specs and optimize the game. They then target an optimization for the low end by first reducing resolution to 1440p and reducing gfx effects. If that doesn't get the target framerate that is the same as the high end game they lower the settings further until it works well enough? This is the I'm not a fucking moron and I know how to design games or I have a PC and I lower gfx settings if my GPU is not up to the task mode. I.e. fucking reality.
 
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Nemesisuuu

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I thought TFLOPS weren't important. As long as it fits whatever narrative it is.

Since the best looking game EVER is for base PS4.


So much concern, everything will be fine.
 
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In the future everything will be better, guaranteed......you`ve watched too many Phil Spencer interviews.

:messenger_tears_of_joy::messenger_tears_of_joy::messenger_tears_of_joy: ah, the power of the cloud. Where have we heard that before...
But, yes, I sure hope that MS ands/or AMD are working on a software solution here, because they already really blew it from a hardware perspective

"i´m the only one who`s right, everybody else doesn´t know anything"....... ever heard of the Dunning Kruger syndrome?
Cloud is doing really well for flight sim.
Technology getting better in the future? Unheard of
I'm not the only person saying this. Actually this thread is probably more people arguing against what you are saying.
 

Phrixotrichus

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Cloud is doing really well for flight sim.
Streaming base data for object creation is one thing...but using remote computation mid frame in the 1-2ms range is horrible horrible nonsense.....
Technology getting better in the future? Unheard of
The hardware of that base console is fix unfortunately. So better hope AMD/MS are working on somtehing comparable to Nvidia`s tech here.
Also 5 minutes ago you were saying 720p would be ok, and now it`s "ms will fix this with software"..... pretty flexible goalposts here, I guess......
I'm not the only person saying this. Actually this thread is probably more people arguing against what you are saying.
All I read here is "scaling"....but that has pretty abrupt limits if visual parity is demanded.
That´s actually the biggest "if".
How strict are the scaling demands from MS for the certification process? If they demand visual parity (except for the res of course) that`s the point where the XSS becomes a roadblock. If devs are allowed to freely tune everything then there shouldn`t be an issue at all.
 
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DonJorginho

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OP you can't stop wanking yourself into a sock over TLOU II looking amazing on a base PS4, which it rightly does.

That should show you how scaling works and how this is not going to be an issue, unless you don't know technology well in which I completely understand why you have publicly exposed such an awful take.
 

Thirty7ven

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It's a shit baseline, and if you have a big TV it's a no go straight away. And in three years time it will only get worse. People dreaming about 1440p are the same people who were preaching 1440p for the PS5 (as opposed to 4K XSX). That tells you most of the folks around here ain't got a clue of what they are talking about.

BUT, diminishing returns is a thing and a lot of developers are already aiming for higher framerates at the cost of detail, because you know... detail doesn't come cheap, to the hardware or to the developers. The XSS will be a perfectly fine choice for those who don't want to spend "too much" money on gaming.

IF you care about the biggest games though, the XSS will be... a lesser experience.
 
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Streaming base data for object creation is one thing...but using remote computation mid frame in the 1-2ms range is horrible horrible nonsense.....
The hardware of that base console is fix unfortunately. So better hope AMD/MS are working on somtehing comparable to Nvidia`s tech here.
Also 5 minutes ago you were saying 720p would be ok, and now it`s "ms will fix this with software"..... pretty flexible goalposts here, I guess......
All I read here is "scaling"....but that has pretty abrupt limits if visual parity is demanded.
That´s actually the biggest "if".
How strict are the scaling demands from MS for the certification process? If they demand visual parity (except for the res of course) that`s the point where the XSS becomes a roadblock. If devs are allowed to freely tune everything then there shouldn`t be an issue at all.
DirectML maybe?
Playfab is doing some cool things as well.
MS is not going to demand anything ridiculous for the series s and if that's your argument it's pretty weak.
I still think 720p is fine for the cheap box if that's what is required to have the game run well. No one is complaining their 5 year old budget anything doesn't work at well as the high end option. That's a silly argument.
 

Thirty7ven

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The S has triggered some world class concern trolling. 🤦‍♂️😅

The S has been known for months. The only new thing happening is Xbox fans drawing silver linings.

Personally? 299$ and Gamepass? And it won’t be long till it’s at 249 during shopping seasons either(or with a game, extra controller). I’m bitting for sure.

Not fool enough to believe in pie in the skies (1440p lol). I even have a 40’ 1080p TV just for it, so the games will look great on it.
 
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JCK75

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Do you really not understand how game assets work? have you never played a game on PC? ever?
A game on a GTX 1060 can run at the exact same fidelity in 1080P as it does running in 4K on a RTX 3080... it does not suffer on the 3080 as a result.
Console assets stopped being fixed once the PS4 Pro /Xbox One X came along and you had the option of higher quality assets on the more powerful box.

Games on PC are designed around the highest possible specs with all sorts of effects and eye candy that slow down older machines, people with older machines simply
turn some of these effects down to get their desired frame rate.. the only difference with these consoles is devs will work out what effects need to be toned down on the lower end console
and it will be automatic.
 
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Zok310

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Wont be surprised if devs just announce that a particular game wont support S like how some games don’t support NS.
 
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Phrixotrichus

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DirectML maybe?
Well that´s just the lower level brother of WinML, just an API, so it really doesn`t mean anything.

Playfab is doing some cool things as well.
Yeah, but nothing in this direction so far.

MS is not going to demand anything ridiculous for the series s and if that's your argument it's pretty weak.
Are we talking about the same MS that thought that that Halo Infinite version was ready to be used as a next gen flagship? I´d absolutely not be suprised if MS utterly retarded Marketing division made some more retarded decisions with the XSS.

I still think 720p is fine for the cheap box if that's what is required to have the game run well. No one is complaining their 5 year old budget anything doesn't work at well as the high end option. That's a silly argument.
So a budget TV would be ok to display in black and white nowadays? Standards change, and 720p just won`t be acceptable in another 5 years. MS/AMD will have to have some sort of DLSS-like feature by then.
We´ll sorely need that on all consoles actually.
 
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Well that´s just the lower level brother of WinML, just an API, so it really doesn`t mean anything.

Yeah, but nothing in this direction so far.

Are we talking about the same MS that thought that that Halo Infinite version was ready to be used as a next gen flagship? I´d absolutely not be suprised if MS utterly retarded Marketing division made some more retarded decisions with the XSS.

So a budget TV would be ok to display in black and white nowadays? Standards change, and 720p just won`t be acceptable in another 5 years. MS/AMD will have to have some sort of DLSS-like feature by then.
We´ll sorely need that on all consoles actually.
So it is just concern trolling? Go upgrade your PC if it's an issue for you. This spin without any kind of proof just isn't working.
 

Zelent

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This whole new generation is underwhelming, and honestly... a complete embarrassment.

I'm glad I grew up during an era where there was only one "type" of console. You didn't have to worry about your parents getting you the "shit console".
Generational leaps back then were also significant. Right now, with the current new generation, we can expect slightly better textures... slightly faster loading... marginally improved lighting.
 

emmerrei

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3/4 of the performance of a 1080p games is wasted only to render it to 4K. So if in the X it runs at 4K in the S will run on 1080p with the same details, and considering the CPU also is the same, there is no sacrifice on the logc part of the game. On the Ram aspect, (from what i can remember it's less), same story, 1080p texture will occupy only 1/4 of the one loaded for a 4k game. There can start to be problems, if an X game struggle to run at 1080p, in that case, you need to cut more than only the resolution from the S.
Anyway, for me, considering the 4TF and no optical disc, in the long run 299$ are wasted money. Just put that 200$ extra on the start, and you're fine.
 
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gmoran

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Yeah I agree this is an issue, but I think particularly for the XSX.

If we consider the mid-generation upgrades we had with the PS4 Pro and Xbox One X, these functioned as graphical upgrades to the base consoles: you had to support the base and they had to run on the "Pro" box. The result was that major titles had upgraded visuals but they were the same game architected around the base version. Smaller games may not have a "Pro" version at all.

This was all fine and dandy this gen because everyone knew what they were buying. But it now seems to me that this is exactly what MS has now imposed on the XSX. Developers must now consider the XSS when developing next gen, the easiest solution will be to code from XSS upwards to XSX. The XSX games will be graphical upgrades to XSS games. The PS5 will not be constrained in the same way. This will most likely constrain first party MS games.
 

AgentP

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Just imagine how many parents will buy their kids who want to play Minecraft, Fortnite etc. the Series S instead of any of the other console, that 300$ instead of 500-600$ will do the job in pushing many many consoles to the households.

Beyond a few freak cases, parents know never to substitute one brand for another unless you want a crying kids on X-mas. This almost never happens and when it does it haunts the kid and parent for life. I still remember getting the Millennium Falcon on X-mas morning, but it was a model and not a toy.
 

Phrixotrichus

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So it is just concern trolling? Go upgrade your PC if it's an issue for you. This spin without any kind of proof just isn't working.
So you have lived under a rock these past 2 years then when aaaall the next gen stuff announced for the next gen consoles has already been on pc and showed exactly what the performance toll for that is....
There's literally hundreds and hundreds of benchmarks but I guess anything without a MS sigil isn't "proof" for you..... :messenger_tears_of_joy::messenger_tears_of_joy::messenger_tears_of_joy::messenger_tears_of_joy:

We have tons of empirical data where you can exactly see just how insufficient 4tf are (even at 1080p) the moment you activate the next gen features...
Heck even Nvidias Ampere will reach its limits fast with everything turned up which is why there is DLSS....
 
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SF Kosmo

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The resolution will scale. Graphics will be identical otherwise.
They'll only scale when they have the overhead to scale. A game that is pushing the Series X to the limit at 30fps 1440 will not magically scale down to a GPU with 1/3 the power.

So in practice it means they will code to the lower spec and just scale up the res or framerate the way they do on today's "Pro" consoles. Which is really a waste of next gen potential, just as the Pro consoles aren't exploited all that well in general.
 
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Journey

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Who said I assumed it can't handle it? But if a game wants to use the Series X gpu for some physics based gameplay or GPGPU for AI or something how would this scale down to a GPU with 1/3 the power? The answer is it doesn’t and they won't. It relegates the GPU to res and fps gains only.


Nothing beats a CPU in GP processing, it's literally what it's there for, the reason it was even a topic was because PS4 and Xbox One were using Jaguar CPUs which were very underpowered and could use GPGPU for things like physics to make up for the weak Jaguar cores, but we saw an entire generation of PS4 and there was nothing outside of a tech demo that took advantage of it despite the Jaguar CPU. Series S has a state of the art Zen 2 CPU that blows the socks off the lackluster Jaguar CPU in every regard, and not because of the generation difference, but if you went back in time, it would be like PS4 and Xbox One choosing a top end CPU of that time, except what's in there is up to stuff with today's standards, developers are HYPED!! and Series S has that along with the other component they're hyped about, an SSD.
 

tkscz

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Beyond a few freak cases, parents know never to substitute one brand for another unless you want a crying kids on X-mas. This almost never happens and when it does it haunts the kid and parent for life. I still remember getting the Millennium Falcon on X-mas morning, but it was a model and not a toy.

But how many kids are going to care that they aren't getting the BEST EXPERIENCE IN GRAPHICS EVER. Most kids who get a gaming computer are happy with the GTX 1060 (still the most used graphics card on steam) or integrated graphics because it can run the games they want to play. Speaking as a parent, if my kid wanted an Xbox series, he'd get an S because the games would still be there and he'd be happy with just that.

Also, I don't understand why people think the series S is going to hold back the series X but a huge margin, or that devs will even base things on the S and scale up, instead of basing it on the X and scale down. Most of what the X can do, so can the S, just not to as high a degree. It'll take extra work but devs are capable of scaling down textures, and effects to where it runs at least at 30fps on the S.
 
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