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So, what's preventing Sony from allowing me to put PS2 discs on my PS5?

nocsi

Member
My understanding is Blu Ray lasers can in fact not read cd's and DVD. The difference in wavelength means that the literal blue light cannot register the etches in the cd and DVD media. Blu Ray players get around this by simply including a red laser in the drive.

The PS3 can read all disc types though (more than the PS4 and PS5).



Source?

So what differentiates CD/DVD/Blu-Rays and how does a reader actually read data off a disc? This diagram should better demonstrate:

The laser needs to read pits on the disc that are aligned on concentric tracks going outwards. CD lasers can't read DVDs or Blu-Rays of course - the spot size or beam waist of the focused laser is too big. Same thing with DVDs. The other thing to consider is how deep the data layers are on the respective disc formats. For CDs, the laser is reading almost entirely through the clear polycarbonate surface. DVDs, the data layers are closer and have dual layers. DVD players also used this focus mechanism to also be able to read CDs.

Ok so how then can we get a blu-ray player to do all three? You made an argument that it requires separate lasers - which Sony has done before. That's what you can see here:


A second way is to have a blu-ray laser in a housing that allows it to refocus to the larger pits and depths for DVD and CD. Here's an example:


There's a third way, with software to compensate, but I'd leave the explanation for that - in case sony wants to patent it. The point being is that the wave length isn't the matter, the problem between the two solutions is to try and get to the data layers that are at different depths on the discs, particularly DVDs. You can get a blu-ray laser to read DVDs, you have to refocus the laser.
 

01011001

Member
My understanding is Blu Ray lasers can in fact not read cd's and DVD. The difference in wavelength means that the literal blue light cannot register the etches in the cd and DVD media. Blu Ray players get around this by simply including a red laser in the drive.

I think the confusion comes from drives that managed to combine all into a single housing, making it look like it's a single diode. (I think the PS3 had such a drive... or at least some models)

and since all BD drives can read DVD and CD media I bet many models do this nowadays.
while older models still had 2 distinctly separated diodes. a DVD/CD diode and a BD diode
 
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PS5 probably uses a BD-ROM drive and in order to facilitate DVD-ROMs (or CD-ROMs), they'd need a more expensive drive with the diodes for the lasers DVDs and CDs can be read at, otherwise the Blu-Ray laser diode won't be able to read the discs.

There's also the need for a software emulator that can be installed locally on a PS5 capable of supporting PS2 games, which Sony currently either don't have (although they should have it), or don't want to release as a standalone product to the public yet.

I'm just guessing this is the case, anyway.

So what differentiates CD/DVD/Blu-Rays and how does a reader actually read data off a disc? This diagram should better demonstrate:

The laser needs to read pits on the disc that are aligned on concentric tracks going outwards. CD lasers can't read DVDs or Blu-Rays of course - the spot size or beam waist of the focused laser is too big. Same thing with DVDs. The other thing to consider is how deep the data layers are on the respective disc formats. For CDs, the laser is reading almost entirely through the clear polycarbonate surface. DVDs, the data layers are closer and have dual layers. DVD players also used this focus mechanism to also be able to read CDs.

Ok so how then can we get a blu-ray player to do all three? You made an argument that it requires separate lasers - which Sony has done before. That's what you can see here:


A second way is to have a blu-ray laser in a housing that allows it to refocus to the larger pits and depths for DVD and CD. Here's an example:


There's a third way, with software to compensate, but I'd leave the explanation for that - in case sony wants to patent it. The point being is that the wave length isn't the matter, the problem between the two solutions is to try and get to the data layers that are at different depths on the discs, particularly DVDs. You can get a blu-ray laser to read DVDs, you have to refocus the laser.

In all honesty, it just comes down to associated added costs for why Sony have a Blu-Ray reader in PS5 units that may not be able to read DVDs or CDs. Look at it from their POV; the BOM is already going to be expensive between the APU, the RAM, the SSD, cooling, motherboard etc. People are primarily buying their PS5s for PS5 games, which are UHD Blu-Ray discs (for the physical versions), or to play their PS4/PS4 Pro games, which physical-wise are also UHD Blu-Ray.

So why put in added costs for a Blu-Ray reader that can also read DVDs and CDs, when the customer base aren't buying the system for products on those formats? Maybe the added costs for that functionality is another $0.50, but when talking about a system being made in the tens of millions, that's money which adds up over time. I'm kind of thinking that if the D-Chassis PS5 rumors are true, then Sony might use the fit-to-form Blu-Ray disc drive model for that version to also add in support for reading DVD-ROM and CD-ROM discs, and maybe even bundle in some code or whatever, or a disc with a copy of a PS2/PS1 software emulator to install from the disc to a PS5 system, for users who want to have their disc PS2 & PS1 games recognized and then copied over to the PS5's internal storage (similar to how the PolyMega does things).

That'd at least give Sony a means of pricing the Blu-Ray attachment for an MSRP that covers the difference between the PS5 Digital and PS5 Disc model SKU pricings ($100). You're not just paying for the disc drive at that point, but also an official PS2/PS1 emulator to locally run games on your PS5 not just from the PS Store but also physically ripping official disc copies in your collection to then run on your PS5, if you have them. They could also make the emulator available as a pure digital download but since you might be limited to the PS2 & PS1 games you get through the PS Store anyway, I wouldn't really see the point in releasing it that way.
 
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old-parts

Member
I suspect the main reason is legal and the licence agreements that were signed around PS2 games.

Microsoft openly stated the difficulty in getting old xbox games new license agreements so they could be software emulated on present day xbox, an inhouse corporate emulator cannot ignore the contracts signed on old games for a specific platform like the PS2 were all sorts of legal rights may bind the game to that specific console, the rights do not transfer to the next generation console (at least back then).

So Sony perhaps would have to integrate some kind of PS2 hardware for it count as a PS2 legally, as happened on PS3 and that was steadily removed with subsequent PS3 revisions to cut costs.

This would also explain why the PS4 has a capable emulator that is simply unused with only a small number of PS2 titles officially supported, Sony isn't interested in spending the money on lawyers to make the PS2 library available via digital or disc on PS4/PS5.
 
I suspect the main reason is legal and the licence agreements that were signed around PS2 games.

Microsoft openly stated the difficulty in getting old xbox games new license agreements so they could be software emulated on present day xbox, an inhouse corporate emulator cannot ignore the contracts signed on old games for a specific platform like the PS2 were all sorts of legal rights may bind the game to that specific console, the rights do not transfer to the next generation console (at least back then).

So Sony perhaps would have to integrate some kind of PS2 hardware for it count as a PS2 legally, as happened on PS3 and that was steadily removed with subsequent PS3 revisions to cut costs.

This would also explain why the PS4 has a capable emulator that is simply unused with only a small number of PS2 titles officially supported, Sony isn't interested in spending the money on lawyers to make the PS2 library available via digital or disc on PS4/PS5.

Definitely a good point WRT the licensing terms perhaps complicating things. However, I'm struggling to think what bare minimum hardware Sony would need to include in order to meet a "minimum legal requirement" of a PS2 console, that's if such is even a requirement. TBH, I'm not versed enough on those aspects of emulation to know one way or another, but considering Sony own the patents to all PS2 technologies, all of its trademarks etc., I don't know why they would need a hardware implementation for PS2 software emulation.

Again though there's a lot of things to it that I don't the specifics of, so maybe it really is just that complicated :/
 

Beechos

Member
While i dont care much for backwards compat myself the financial incentive/cost can be debatable. They can spend the money to do this to keep their customers happy and not potentially lose them to the competition.

Companies spend money and time to add shit to products that no one asked for all the time. Sure theyll lose out of some sales from the people that still have the discs but how many people still have old games laying around in good condition. Money can be made from nostalgia.
 

Mitsurux

Member
In regard to playing Physical Discs via BC, I do not see licensing being an issue. If licensing was involved in any way, that would have meant that for PS2 and PS3 BC Sony would have had to go back to the publishers/developers of every prior gen game to re-up a license for BC.... (or Nintendo with BC from Wii to WiiU.. going back to re-license all of the shovel-ware for BC purposes) I find that highly unlikely. (or future BC plans would have been included with original licensing agreements years before plans to include such features in the next system were finalized? eh.. I find that highly unlikely as well....)

Now if they are wanting to sell these games again via a digital store, then yes licensing would be involved (who get what percentage of the sale etc.) - this would also affect games with licensed IP, sports leagues, movie tie it games etc.

To me it seem like Sony is leaving money on the table, If they were to release a PS2 native app on PS5 that allowed you to play your physical discs for (pick a price) 30, 40, 50 heck 60 dollars and 500,000 people bought it, that would more than cover any additional development costs since the Emulator already exists in some form already. They could put the disclaimer on it that all games might not work 100% , market it as a something for "Advanced users" or those who like to tinker with settings etc. (Heck if they even wanted to be jerks they could make it so that app would not be able to play any of the games currently available on the premium tiers of PS+, so as not to devalue that)

Eh.. but who know perhaps there is a hardware reason that we don't know if or something else... just me dreaming (of playing Tiger Woods 2005 and NFL 2k5 on modern platforms).
 

fart town usa

Gold Member
Why do you expect a company to devote resources to develop an emulator to play PS2 discs on the PS5? Are you that fucking entitled that you think Sony should spend 10s of thousands of dollars on this project for the handful of people like you that have PS2 disc games? It's not just slapping an emulator on there, it is designing the UI, QA testing, security testing, etc. Also who would even want to work on that project? People like to see their efforts being used. How many people would use this?
gtfo GIF
go away gtfo GIF
Get Out Theatre GIF by Tony Awards
Behind The Scenes Kick GIF by Taylor Swift
Season 3 Leave GIF by Martin
 
its probably alot more complicated than we think it is. just look at the ps premium classics. sony are obviously having a hard time getting the most popular games on there. if it was easy, we would have all the big classic games on there already. even microsoft dont have full xbox 360 BC and is only select games that they added over time before stopping. i think having full PS4 bc was a requirement but anything beyond that isnt necessary at all. how many people do you think still own PS and PS2 discs? personally, i want sony to work towards PS3 bc. at the moment you can only stream them.
 
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01011001

Member
its probably alot more complicated than we think it is. just look at the ps premium classics. sony are obviously having a hard time getting the most popular games on there. if it was easy, we would have all the big classic games on there already. even microsoft dont have full xbox 360 BC and is only select games that they added over time before stopping. i think having full PS4 bc was a requirement but anything beyond that isnt necessary at all. how many people do you think still own PS and PS2 discs? personally, i want sony to work towards PS3 bc. at the moment you can only stream them.

it's not complicated at all. they have a working Emulator that plays almost 700 games perfectly.

and since it's a straight up old school emulator they also don't need to license anything at all
 

Calverz

Banned
I've been replaying the Silent Hill games on my PS2 with a crappy HDMI converter and the result is okay-ish (on an LG oled).
I'm enjoying my time, but I kept asking myself why the hell can't the PS5 read PS2 discs? They already have a built-in PS2 emulator so what's the amount of work needed for us to use our discs and insert them into the console and start playing?

Yeah, PS2 had a unique architecture with its Emotion Engine, but I'm pretty sure that the PS5 can easily emulate the console considering the power differential between the two consoles.

I need my backwards compatibility fix Sony !!
I would kill for a PlayStation that can read all the previous consoles' discs.

What are your thoughts? Do you want to have a PS1/PS2 emulator on your PS5s?
Get an Xbox and emulate them!
 
I don't think the real answer is anything technical at all but legal. A lot of the games that could be played on PS5 from PS2 are from defunct studios and publishers and many titles have content within that were only licenced for certain hardware and a period of time.
 
The main thing preventing it is that Sony doesn't want you to be able to do that in the first place. Sony is terrible at this stuff just look at the PS+ Premium and it's pathetic classic library.
 
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IFireflyl

Member
Incorrect. You can actually get a Blu-ray lasers to read dvds and cds. Not a separate laser. The players that have separate lasers do it for completely different reasons

So what differentiates CD/DVD/Blu-Rays and how does a reader actually read data off a disc? This diagram should better demonstrate:

The laser needs to read pits on the disc that are aligned on concentric tracks going outwards. CD lasers can't read DVDs or Blu-Rays of course - the spot size or beam waist of the focused laser is too big. Same thing with DVDs. The other thing to consider is how deep the data layers are on the respective disc formats. For CDs, the laser is reading almost entirely through the clear polycarbonate surface. DVDs, the data layers are closer and have dual layers. DVD players also used this focus mechanism to also be able to read CDs.

Ok so how then can we get a blu-ray player to do all three? You made an argument that it requires separate lasers - which Sony has done before. That's what you can see here:


A second way is to have a blu-ray laser in a housing that allows it to refocus to the larger pits and depths for DVD and CD. Here's an example:


There's a third way, with software to compensate, but I'd leave the explanation for that - in case sony wants to patent it. The point being is that the wave length isn't the matter, the problem between the two solutions is to try and get to the data layers that are at different depths on the discs, particularly DVDs. You can get a blu-ray laser to read DVDs, you have to refocus the laser.

You are confidently incorrect. The different lasers (infrared, red, and blue) all read and write at different wavelengths. A blue laser can't simply be "refocused" in order to read a much larger pit found in a DVD or CD. The tracking assembly is to make tiny corrections in order for it to properly find and read the pits made by the blue laser's 405nm wavelength. There is no blue laser capable of "refocusing" to read the pits caused by a red laser in the 656nm wavelength or the pits caused by an infrared laser in the 780nm wavelength.

In order for a blue laser to be "refocused" to properly read the pits made by a red laser there would have to be a secondary mechanism between the disc and the laser that would essentially function the same way it would if you were to look into binoculars the wrong way (meaning it would zoom out to make the bigger pit look smaller). But even then, there would have to be something that would tell the mechanism that it needs to engage in this activity. If such a mechanism were always engaged then you wouldn't be able to read the smaller pits caused by a blue laser as it would be zoomed out and the pit would appear to be too small to be properly read. If it were never engaged then it would never read the larger pits created by a red laser.

If this were an option you wouldn't see virtually every Blu-ray drive containing 2-3 different lasers (including the PlayStation 5). Actual Blu-ray players virtually all contain an infrared laser, a red laser, and a blue laser. Some Blu-ray devices, such as the PlayStation 5, only contain a red laser and a blue laser. This "refocusing" technology would almost certainly be cheaper than incorporating 2-3 different lasers into the Blu-ray player.

I don't know where you're getting your information, but it appears to be very wrong. Tagging RoadHazard RoadHazard to see this reply as well.

The reason that a Blu-ray Disc player can play DVDs is that manufacturers decided that all Blu-ray Disc players included both blue and red lasers so that they could play both Blu-ray Discs and DVDs.

A red laser produces a light beam that is of a longer wavelength than a blue laser, enabling it to read the larger pits imprinted on DVDs and CDs.

When you place a DVD into a Blu-ray Disc player, it activates the red laser assembly so that the DVD can be read.

Source: https://www.lifewire.com/blu-ray-disc-on-dvd-player-1846522

EDIT: To be perfectly clear, you're not wrong in that it theoretically CAN be done the way that you're suggesting. But you are wrong in stating that having separate lasers is a Sony issue when there isn't a single Blu-ray player that I can think of which incorporates the technology that you're referring to. To the extent of my knowledge, every Blu-ray player on the market that has the capability of reading a DVD and/or CD has multiple lasers. If you can show that I am wrong I am happy to concede, but I don't know of a single company that is using "refocusing" technology to force a blue laser to read the larger pits made by red (DVD) and infrared (CD) lasers. Even if there is a single company that is doing this, it certainly isn't the common practice.
 
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Sosokrates

Report me if I continue to console war
As with most things it's probably financially related and the amount of people demanding it is probably negligible.
 

01011001

Member
I don't think the real answer is anything technical at all but legal. A lot of the games that could be played on PS5 from PS2 are from defunct studios and publishers and many titles have content within that were only licenced for certain hardware and a period of time.
👇
it's not complicated at all. they have a working Emulator that plays almost 700 games perfectly.

and since it's a straight up old school emulator they also don't need to license anything at all


there's LITERALLY nothing that keeps sony from making the PS4 and PS5 backwards compatible to PS2 discs and almost 700 games other than the fact that they don't want to.

same with PS1
 
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Gamerguy84

Member
It's just not in the plans. I'm sure if it were simple they would flick the switch and it would be there.

I just bought a new truck and it don't have a CD player, and where the hell is my 3.5mm jack in this phone?
 

TGO

Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
It’s the simplest reason. They want you as a customer in the present, and your PS2 games are money you spent in the past.
Backwards compat means the money you spent in the past, isn’t turning into money that ends up in their pockets in the present. It stays in the past, therefore it doesn’t exist.
You either spend your current money for products that are currently available, or you’re not a customer and can fuck right off. Thanks for your business 20 years ago, I guess.
That's not entirely true....
 
forget about ps2 dvds, they have like 5 ps2 games in the store, they have little interest in emulation unless it only costs them a few pennies to do. Shame they have such huge a catalog.
 
👇



there's LITERALLY nothing that keeps sony from making the PS4 and PS5 backwards compatible to PS2 discs and almost 700 games other than the fact that they don't want to.

same with PS1
Okay, you clearly don't understand my point or chose to ignore it. I didn't say at any point that Sony COULDN'T or WOULDN'T. I stated, what has clearly been documented before that it could be a LEGAL issue. Which is a lot more complicated than simply releasing an emulator on your system.

Here is some reading material:

https://www.gamelivestory.com/artic...nt-be-backward-compatible-with-ps3-ps2-or-ps1

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2021/11/the-legal-issues-getting-in-the-way-of-legal-emulation/

I'm well aware that Sony emulate titles in the PS1, PS2 and PSP on the PS5. They did with the PS4. This is nothing new and I'm not stupid.
 

01011001

Member
Okay, you clearly don't understand my point or chose to ignore it. I didn't say at any point that Sony COULDN'T or WOULDN'T. I stated, what has clearly been documented before that it could be a LEGAL issue. Which is a lot more complicated than simply releasing an emulator on your system.

Here is some reading material:

https://www.gamelivestory.com/artic...nt-be-backward-compatible-with-ps3-ps2-or-ps1

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2021/11/the-legal-issues-getting-in-the-way-of-legal-emulation/

I'm well aware that Sony emulate titles in the PS1, PS2 and PSP on the PS5. They did with the PS4. This is nothing new and I'm not stupid.

the first link doesn't work and sends me to a spam site, and the second link is irrelevant because backwards compatibility on Xbox doesn't work with a normal Emulator but instead downloads a specially optimised version for each game

sony has a working software based Emulator. emulating ANY game is legal if you use your own copy of the game.

no publisher can do anything about it. just like no publisher can stop you from downloading Dolphin and playing GameCube and Wii games on your Series X, Phone, Switch or PC, neither can they stop the developers of Dolphin from developing, updating and distributing the Emulator on any system they want to.

Sony has ZERO legal reasons for not supporting PS2 games. they have an emulator in place as well that when tested by the community turns out to be able to play almost 700 PS2 games semi-perfectly
 
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DrCheese

Member
Maybe you didn't hear me or understand me.

Note here you said Xbox One, you didn't say Xbox 360 or Xbox.
BC each generation gives diminishing returns and requires more constraints for engineering to stay in line with previous generations. There's a cost to everything. Systems with the same controllers as the previous system generally are going to be less innovative and risk-taking, which means the games are going to be more iterative. The same is true for overarching architecture.

The question posed here is whether should Sony allow PS2 BC on PS5, the answer is that is doesn't make a ton of sense even though a small number of people would appreciate that.

As for sticking with the ecosystem, ecosystems don't really last that long in an interactive AND continuous manner. People who bought a PS5 and a PS2 are Sony consumers, but not because they want to play their PS2 games on PS5, in the same state that they did when the PS2 came out. We're talking about 22 years and some pretty bad 3d gaming and pretty bad loading times.

If you look at the 50 best-selling PS2 games. I bet 80 percent of them have a modern successor, remake, remaster, or port, maybe with exceptions for licensed games like Lord of The Rings. Is anyone scrambling to play Dynasty Warriors 4 or Madden 2003?

Going further, we're mostly moving on from physical media for gaming, which is a huge boon for direct retail. This is where I think BC does come into play a bit more. Had the PS3 had more simple architecture, I think you'd see PS3 games running on PS4 and PS5., but even then I'd rather have a high-quality remaster/remake like Demon's Souls.

No but I didn't feel I needed to. But I do & have used the 360 BC quite a lot since getting my Series X. Long sessions of Perfect dark with my friends & my other half discovered Viva Pinata which she played to death, along with the older plants vs zombies.

I understand what you're saying with the rest of your post - No, no one really wants to play it in the same state as when the PS2 came out, as for starters modern TVs are vastly different but that's a major benefit of BC, especially with the approach MS took whereby the games are enhanced and upgraded. As for saying it's pretty bad 3D gaming, that's a subjective statement. Metal Gear Solid looks like complete ass but it's still an amazing game & there's no port or modern version.
 
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