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Some perspective on the Next-Gen: this is how a first year ng exclusive looked like last gen

Sosokrates

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The hardware is very good. They could have gone more conservative.
The thing is all "curret gen" exclusives have been made using last gen game engines.
It is disappointing that the PS5 and XSX feel like PS4 pro V2 and X1X2. Every game released for current gen and shown, looks like they could work on last gen without to many comprimises.

Its going to be a while until a game feels "next gen". The first will likely be starfield, but visually it wont be until Naughty dog, id, the coalition and Rockstar make there Next gen debut.

Also dimininishing returns is only going to get worse as visuals get more realistic. Last gen developers made materials actually look realistic, it gets harder and harder to improve. Something which already looks like wood, metal and other materials.
 

Sosokrates

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It depends how you look at it


No doubt the PS5 looks better. But its not a huge improvement by generational standards.
The problem is if you look at the wall in the PS4 pic, it is a pretty decent representation of a wall, to improve masonry to a large degree would require huge hardware power increases. Also all the improvementa are technology from last gen and the more expensive things are used sparingly.
Imo this is a symptom of using last gen game engines.
We will see a more traditional visual leap when developers start using many millions of micropolygons for static environmental and realtime global illumination.
 

Hobbygaming

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PS3/XB360






PS4/XB1



Rinse. Repeat.
Yup it's the same every generation, people always say diminishing returns are here and yet developers always find new ways to improve visuals

We're going to have some stunning games especially when more studios start designing their games around not having to keep everything in ram
 
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Guilty_AI

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Yup it's the same every generation, people always say diminishing returns are here and yet developers always find new ways to improve visuals

We're going to have some stunning games especially when more studios start designing their games around not having to keep everything in ram
Nah, diminishing returns is a real thing. It becomes more accentuated every gen that passes.

I'm not saying there won't be any breakthroughs or no new games that'll impress you, its just that games like that become less and less common as gens go by. There just comes a point where publishers and developers have to consider if pushing the envelope graphically is really worth it time and money wise, especially considering we have games like Hades or Psychonauts 2 achieving great results doing just the expected in terms of visuals.
JP publishers seem to have realized that for the most part already.
 
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You know what's funny. Even as we get more "incremental" upgrades over a long period of time, you look back at games that once blew your mind, and you kinda go...ewww... what was I thinking?

I can't wait until engines are updated and we start seeing some true masterpieces.

Also, I don't expect the 60fps trend to continue. Games WILL get more demanding whether you want them to or not and since consoles are fixed hardware, you can't simply throw more hardware at it to help.

Even Horizon Forbidden West looks insanely good on next gen, but it's still a cross-gen game, so it's using a last-gen engine.

I have a good feeling we're in for a surprising treat really soon in regards to graphics.
 

Raven117

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Twice the framerate, twice the pixels and still better looking in every way conceivable. I don’t get why people are complaining, really.
They are just complaining because the game drought after a console release has been longer due to Covid.
 
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winjer

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Although the jump in graphics quality is not as big as in the precious generation, there are a couple of improvements in other areas, that make it much better.

One is the SSD. The simple fact that we don't have to wait minutes to load a game is amazing.
We just wait a fez seconds and we are in the action. No more elevators or corridors to hide stupidly long loading times.

The other improvement is even bigger, 60 fps as standard. And even an option for 120 fps, in some games.
The ability to have lower input lag, better responsiveness, is something that improves gameplay a lot.
Ad the option to use Variable Refresh Rate and we have what is probably the best generation in terms of stability and frame pacing.
 
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That's rather subjective though.

That said.... this:

Horizon Zero Dawn Landscape GIF by PlayStation


Is next-gen as fuck!... No question at all.
I agree. Forbidden West looks INSANE on current gen and I honestly can't believe this is going to run on last gen as well. If this is what is to come as a cross-gen game, I can't even imagine what the future holds. I'll be playing this in 4K/30 though as I'm a resolution snob.
 

lachesis

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I also think we entered into an era of art direction / scenic design making the difference, given more horse powers.
Creating a 3d environment is one thing, but art direction is on whole another level.
In my humble opinion, all the tiniest details and over-abundant use of effects and all doesn't necessarily equate the beautiful picture.
And there are only few truly talented art directors and scenic designers - paired with equally talented artists.
 

Alebrije

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Demons Souls was a launch title and was impresive....also performance is better this gen than last
 

Sosokrates

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That's rather subjective though.

That said.... this:

Horizon Zero Dawn Landscape GIF by PlayStation


Is next-gen as fuck!... No question at all.


While there may not be a huge difference to the extent of how much the visual features improved compared to prior gens, dimininishing returns definitely makes this gen a smaller leap especially early on.

I do think things will get better once big budget games are using next gen game engines, but gen8 games will age really well in comparison when played at a competent resolution and framerate.

As for forbidden west, it looks like a gen8 game running on a high end machine, similer to control running on a decent PC.
Both look great, but not next gen. Its like if you added more particle effects and geometric detail to bioshock infinite in 2014, it would of looked good, but it would be no doom 2016.

Another example would be RDR2, you could do the same things guerilla are doing with forbidden west, more geometric detail, higher quality textures and hero lighting on the character model. If R* did that it would look probably better then forbidden west on PS5.
 

bitbydeath

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While there may not be a huge difference to the extent of how much the visual features improved compared to prior gens, dimininishing returns definitely makes this gen a smaller leap especially early on.

I do think things will get better once big budget games are using next gen game engines, but gen8 games will age really well in comparison when played at a competent resolution and framerate.

As for forbidden west, it looks like a gen8 game running on a high end machine, similer to control running on a decent PC.
Both look great, but not next gen. Its like if you added more particle effects and geometric detail to bioshock infinite in 2014, it would of looked good, but it would be no doom 2016.

Another example would be RDR2, you could do the same things guerilla are doing with forbidden west, more geometric detail, higher quality textures and hero lighting on the character model. If R* did that it would look probably better then forbidden west on PS5.
You’re way overblowing Control and PC’s capabilities for last gen games. RDR2 is a poor example too. Days Gone looks way better. IMO
 

Sosokrates

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You’re way overblowing Control and PC’s capabilities for last gen games. RDR2 is a poor example too. Days Gone looks way better. IMO

Overblowing compared to forbidden west footage? Control with a rtx 2070 or higher does some things better then the forbidden west footage.

Its also worth noting that forbidden west footage is pre release and not reflective of gameplay quality.
 
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bitbydeath

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Overblowing compared to forbidden west footage? Control with a rtx 2070 or higher does some things better then the forbidden west footage.

Its also worth noting that forbidden west footage is pre release and not reflective of gameplay quality.
Did you not see the gameplay trailer? It’s not final but if there are changes it will be even further improvements.




Control doesn’t hold a candle to it.
 

Sosokrates

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Did you not see the gameplay trailer? It’s not final but if there are changes it will be even further improvements.




Control doesn’t hold a candle to it.

We dont know if there will be improvements or downgrades. TLOU2 did see some downgrades in the retail vs the pre release gameplay. I would not be surprised if it happens to forbidden west, but im pretty indifferent. I just think pre release footage should not be used as an example of a gens visuals.
And you can keep saying control on PC does not hold a candle but it does do certain things better compared to this pre release footage of forbidden west, this is not an opinion they can be identified, like ssr and RT reflections can be identified, its not a matter of opinion which way to do reflections is better, its a fact that RT reflections are better then ssr if done correctly.
 
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Hunnybun

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Overblowing compared to forbidden west footage? Control with a rtx 2070 or higher does some things better then the forbidden west footage.

Its also worth noting that forbidden west footage is pre release and not reflective of gameplay quality.

You're really underplaying Horizon here imo. It looks right up there with Ratchet as the most next gen game so far.

There's really no gen 8 game that looks like that.
 
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Sosokrates

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You're really underplaying Horizon here imo. It looks right up there with Ratchet as the most next gen game so far.

There's really no gen 8 game that looks like that.

I think people are confusing art style preference to technical sophistication.

No doubt the tropical beach location of forbidden west is a more beautiful location then the indoor office buildings of control, but that is a different conversation.
We are talking about the technical sophistication of a games visuals not art preferences.

Also dont get me wrong I think forbidden west is a great looking game but its clear to me its a gen8 game with enhancements like control running on an decent RTX equipped PC.

People should watch this, remedy did some really impressive stuff.

 
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Zug

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Rasterization is showing it's limits, increasing the poly count and definition can only get you so far. Small increases in graphic fidelity now costs a lot more on dev budget than it's worth.
Full ray tracing is the real next gen thing, but the hardware isn't quite there yet, even on PCs.

Moving toward higher framerates while increasing slightly the graphical fidelity is the best move at the moment, unless AMD comes up with some sort of black magic to put some raytracing at a much lower cost on a software level (which I don't believe will happen).
 
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buenoblue

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You can't see 30fps vs 60fps in screenshots though. Can't believe people moaning about power after the Xbox one and PS4. Garbage CPUs and cheap ass gpus even for the time. Wasn't the the Xbox one gpu equivelant like £100.

After playing ratchet, miles morales, ac Valhalla, demon souls, returnal, fenyx and so on at high res and 60fps I'm finally happy with the performance of consoles since the PS2. And it's only gonna get better.
 

SlimySnake

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No doubt the PS5 looks better. But its not a huge improvement by generational standards.
The problem is if you look at the wall in the PS4 pic, it is a pretty decent representation of a wall, to improve masonry to a large degree would require huge hardware power increases. Also all the improvementa are technology from last gen and the more expensive things are used sparingly.
Imo this is a symptom of using last gen game engines.
We will see a more traditional visual leap when developers start using many millions of micropolygons for static environmental and realtime global illumination.
It's also a 60 fps game. Had they made the 1440p mode 30 fps, it wouldve looked far better.
 

Hunnybun

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I think people are confusing art style preference to technical sophistication.

No doubt the tropical beach location of forbidden west is a more beautiful location then the indoor office buildings of control, but that is a different conversation.
We are talking about the technical sophistication of a games visuals not art preferences.

Also dont get me wrong I think forbidden west is a great looking game but its clear to me its a gen8 game with enhancements like control running on an decent RTX equipped PC.

People should watch this, remedy did some really impressive stuff.


But it goes without saying that a game that pushed the best Nvidia RTX cards is going to have better RT than ANY PS5 or XSX game, that's just a technological certainty.

But RT isn't really what will define what a 'next gen' game will look like, not really. It certainly won't be all of the story, because the consoles' RT capacity is modest.

But games like Ratchet (even without its RT), HFW, Forza Horizon 5, and Returnal all look significantly better than Control in nearly every other respect.
 

bitbydeath

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We dont know if there will be improvements or downgrades. TLOU2 did see some downgrades in the retail vs the pre release gameplay. I would not be surprised if it happens to forbidden west, but im pretty indifferent. I just think pre release footage should not be used as an example of a gens visuals.
And you can keep saying control on PC does not hold a candle but it does do certain things better compared to this pre release footage of forbidden west, this is not an opinion they can be identified, like ssr and RT reflections can be identified, its not a matter of opinion which way to do reflections is better, its a fact that RT reflections are better then ssr if done correctly.
The TLOU2 trailer you’re referring came out over two years before the final games release. The Horizon trailer will have less than a year, would have been only a few months if not for the delay.

Control having a large focus on SSR and RT doesn’t make up for the rest of the graphics.
 

decisions

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The thing that really happened is COVID. People are depressed and enjoying the financial savings that come from remote work. Because of this, they claim that remote work does not hamper productivity and in fact increases it, when really they are working half as much as they would during a normal workday either out of laziness, depression, or because they are blocked by waiting to hear back from someone who is currently in their bout of the day’s depression and laziness.

This is why software around the world is underwhleming. Communication, teamwork, and productivity are way down.
 
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makaveli60

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Unforunately there is a very loud cult now who is shouting ”60fps60fps60fps” with no end and that restricts developers’ ambitions.
 
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mckmas8808

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it's literally impossible to have a difference this big this gen.
the jump in terms of GPU performance and the difference when using higher detail is simply too small.

the time of big generational jumps is over

It's funny to me, because people LITERALLY said this same EXACT thing when we went from PS3 to PS4. They looked at the PS2 to PS3 just and said the jump to PS4 was terrible due to the weak jaguar cores in the PS4. And now look.

Here We Go Again GIF
 

iQuasarLV

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Short answer: Four to five years post console launch to see truly next gen visuals / gameplay.

Long answer: Anyone in the video game market long enough knows just how long shit can stagnate because of an artificial wall developer's / publishers place on dilluting the product as much as possible. Most recently PC games from 2005 -2009 were hampered by the huge adoption of xbox 360 / ps3. The consoles being locked to DX9 visuals effectively locked any next gen visual out as developers had to make games that supported current consoles running old generation code. DX10 / DX11 were all but ignored until the XBone / PS4 released. The biggest thing they offered was an updated instruction library that supported DX11 visuals. They ran on atrocious hardware (AMD bulldozer APU) , BUT because the visuals were running DX11 instructions things jumped up considerably. Now we have had DX11 games for over 10 years and DX12 is just around the corner, however, PS5 and XBoxS are currently running on DX11 insturctions. So you have two generations of machines that are desperately trying to convince you they are running next gen visuals. When (in PC lingo) in reality all they did was take the same operating system and throw in a new video card more RAM and an SSD to improve performance on the back end.
So, it is going to take developers 4-5 years to get used to DX12 visuals and coding techniques before your investments into PS5 / XBS to pay off. IF they ever do this generation. Yet, I see these 10 year console cycles now, so I can see it eventually coming around. BUT again by that time the console hardware is so out of date we'll be screaming to get an upgrade because PC passed by so long ago. Consoles are always working with code a generation behind what PC introduces because they are closed eco-systems. This is why PC gaming hates consoles. They locked down progression.
 

Sosokrates

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But it goes without saying that a game that pushed the best Nvidia RTX cards is going to have better RT than ANY PS5 or XSX game, that's just a technological certainty.

But RT isn't really what will define what a 'next gen' game will look like, not really. It certainly won't be all of the story, because the consoles' RT capacity is modest.

But games like Ratchet (even without its RT), HFW, Forza Horizon 5, and Returnal all look significantly better than Control in nearly every other respect.

My point is that games designed exclusivly for series S/X, Ps5 and PC using next gen game engines should be easy to tell apart from games designed for gen8 but enhanced for the current gen systems.

The most "next gen" games will have RT. Unfortunately RT is quite expensive for the consoles which will limit it use.

Also i dont really know what your trying to get at by saying those games look better then control without RT, i mean.. yeah, of course they will, they will also look better then forbidden west running on a PS4.
 

Boglin

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It's funny to me, because people LITERALLY said this same EXACT thing when we went from PS3 to PS4. They looked at the PS2 to PS3 just and said the jump to PS4 was terrible due to the weak jaguar cores in the PS4. And now look.

Here We Go Again GIF
I think I get what he means.
The PS4 had 16x the amount of memory and 8x more teraflops than the ps3 yet it was only asked to push 2x the pixels by going from a target of 720p@30fps to 1080p@30fps.

The PS5 only has 2x the memory and 5.5x the teraflops compared to the PS4 and if the target is 4k@60 then that's 8x the amount of pixels to render.
 
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Hunnybun

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My point is that games designed exclusivly for series S/X, Ps5 and PC using next gen game engines should be easy to tell apart from games designed for gen8 but enhanced for the current gen systems.

The most "next gen" games will have RT. Unfortunately RT is quite expensive for the consoles which will limit it use.

Also i dont really know what your trying to get at by saying those games look better then control without RT, i mean.. yeah, of course they will, they will also look better then forbidden west running on a PS4.

I'm saying Horizon FW looks way better than Control with RT.
 

Ironman_Bad

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It's not the industry problem as long as we don't include their shifting from producing top notch tech engine tech to top notch tech to handle live services.

The hardware just isn't there.

We are expecting a 4X resolution jump, the biggest one in many generations with a weak hardware.

And then add that the Ray tracing cores are not very powerful yet so they are helpful but can't make miracles (yet).

I think the pandemic saved their asses, literally there is no reason to upgrade now.

Speak for yourself I'm loving playing everything at 60fps 4k with auto hdr and if you're on xbox one x your getting 30fps at best and if your on a base xbox one/ps4....lol
 
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MikeM

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We'll just have to deal with this shit now since PC gamers, DF and other snowflakes are always crying about how 30fps sucks and bla bla bla. That's what you get if you want HFR on consoles. It is what it is.
30fps is brutal in motion. I always choose framerate where possible. Tired of blurry messes at 30fps. Bring on more 60fps and 120fps!
 

mckmas8808

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I think I get what he means.
The PS4 had 16x the amount of memory and 8x more teraflops than the ps3 yet it was only asked to push 2x the pixels by going from a target of 720p@30fps to 1080p@30fps.

The PS5 only has 2x the memory and 5.5x the teraflops compared to the PS4 and if the target is 4k@60 then that's 8x the amount of pixels to render.

That's why I NEVER understand people "demanding" every game to be 4K60. It's a super stupid metric to want devs to force themselves to use. Not every game needs to be in 4K. And not every game needs 60fps to be playable. For instance.......how many more pixels would it be if a game was running at 1620p at a solid 30 fps (compared to 1080p@30fps)?
 
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That's why I NEVER understand people "demanding" every game to be 4K60. It's a super stupid metric to want devs to force themselves to use. Not every game needs to be in 4K. And not every game needs 60fps to be playable. For instance.......how many more pixels would it be if a game was running at 1620p at a solid 30 fps (compared to 1080p@30fps)?
I kinda wanna see a game running at 1080p/30 on PS5 with the visuals cranked to the absolute highest we’ve ever seen. That would be a spectacle. People would quickly forget it’s 1080p/30 when they see how insane it looks.
 
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That's why I NEVER understand people "demanding" every game to be 4K60. It's a super stupid metric to want devs to force themselves to use. Not every game needs to be in 4K. And not every game needs 60fps to be playable. For instance.......how many more pixels would it be if a game was running at 1620p at a solid 30 fps (compared to 1080p@30fps)?
We need whatever TLOU II is doing 1440P upscaled and 60 FPS (PS5 Patch). It looks mind blowing and will save performance.
 
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Boglin

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I agree with you. It's unrealistic to want a resolution bump, FPS increase, ray tracing, and a big jump in 'graphics' all at the same time. There has to be a compromise because of where these consoles are priced.
 
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We need whatever TLOU II is doing 1440P upscaled and 60 FPS (PS5 Patch). It looks mind blowing and will save performance.
I don’t even think TLOU2 really looks like a next gen game. Super low res textures everywhere, pop-in, weird lighting issues, textures not loading in certain areas for minutes at a time, largely static world. Animations are top notch and the story is fantastic though.

I want games to be way better than TLOU2 but at this rate forcing everting to be 4K/60 or just 60fps in general is holding back visual progress in my opinion.
 

01011001

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It's funny to me, because people LITERALLY said this same EXACT thing when we went from PS3 to PS4. They looked at the PS2 to PS3 just and said the jump to PS4 was terrible due to the weak jaguar cores in the PS4. And now look.

Here We Go Again GIF

well yeah, it wasn't as big of a jump as from PS2 to PS3, the jumps get smaller, at least subjectively.

we are at a point where more polygons on any given model doesn't really stick out anymore.
neither do higher res textures, you have to go right up to something and zoom in to really notice a difference there.
or effects like real time shadows and AO basically get better in small ways for sure but it's also something you will not immediately notice.

simply put, if you want to display a good looking ball, and that ball has so many polygons that it looks pretty much perfectly round with no obvious polygons showing, increasing that balls polygon count by 2x will objectively make the ball more round, but because the old version already looked perfectly round to you... does adding 2x as many polygons change how you subjectively judge the graphical quality of the ball?
 
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I don’t even think TLOU2 really looks like a next gen game. Super low res textures everywhere, pop-in, weird lighting issues, textures not loading in certain areas for minutes at a time, largely static world. Animations are top notch and the story is fantastic though.

I want games to be way better than TLOU2 but at this rate forcing everting to be 4K/60 or just 60fps in general is holding back visual progress in my opinion.
No I mean as far as resolution and framerate, just with PS5 level visuals. TLOU 3 with PS5 level visuals in 1440p upscaled to 4k.
 
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I think geometry and texures of last generation were really high, and physically based shaders were very accurate. Simply adding more resolution and geometry want give the sense of generational leap. The use of geometry and textures will be put to add more objects on screen to increase environmental detail, while CPU cycles can support more animations. Games eill achieve more but they won't look much fifferent than last gen unless we get 10X hardware boost.
 

Bumblebeetuna

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What’s so impressive about Second Son? Sure it looks better, but it plays like a PS3 Infamous title. I don’t care much about better graphics, to me a new console is about possibilities that eclipse previous hardware. It’s more concerning to me that neither console has anything coming soon that flat out couldn’t be done on previous gen. I’m thinking something like the Nemesis system in Mordor. Maybe Flight Sim comes close to this?

That said, the SSDs alone offer enough QoL improvements to make either next gen console worth the price imho. But it will be awhile before the games make it worth it imho.
 

Hunnybun

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I agree with you. It's unrealistic to want a resolution bump, FPS increase, ray tracing, and a big jump in 'graphics' all at the same time. There has to be a compromise because of where these consoles are priced.

I think Ratchet showed that exactly that is possible, as long as 1440p or thereabouts is considered a good bump.

People just need to be patient really. As far as I can see, there's been basically one AAA game developed specifically for the next gen consoles, and it delivered spectacularly.

Now it's true that it fucking sucks that that's basically the only one that's been seen, and it's really frustrating, but that is the major data point, and it's all good news.

Returnal and Deathloop both look great, but they're not exactly by studios really known for cutting edge graphics.
 
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KAL2006

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For me personally Ratchet and Clank is the big leap this gen. Just compare it to the previous game on PS4 it's a big leap. Especially if you compare it vanilla PS4 without 4K patch.

Going from Ratchet and Clank 1080p 30fps less polys, worse lightning, less particle effects and etc to Rift Apart is a big leap.

But like every generation the leap is getting smaller and smaller. The leap between PS2 to PS3 was even bigger than the leap between PS3 and PS4.

I think the biggest problem is there are not many games that show the difference. Ratchet and Clank is only one game of many. Where as with PS4 a large amount of games looked way better, even cross gen games like Battlefield looked way better.
 

Hobbygaming

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Nah, diminishing returns is a real thing. It becomes more accentuated every gen that passes.

I'm not saying there won't be any breakthroughs or no new games that'll impress you, its just that games like that become less and less common as gens go by. There just comes a point where publishers and developers have to consider if pushing the envelope graphically is really worth it time and money wise, especially considering we have games like Hades or Psychonauts 2 achieving great results doing just the expected in terms of visuals.
JP publishers seem to have realized that for the most part already.
We're nowhere near the point where graphics won't get any better though

In fact, the leap this gen will be huge. Wait until more next gen exclusives come
 
Last edited:
Mar 16, 2014
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I think geometry and texures of last generation were really high, and physically based shaders were very accurate. Simply adding more resolution and geometry want give the sense of generational leap. The use of geometry and textures will be put to add more objects on screen to increase environmental detail, while CPU cycles can support more animations. Games eill achieve more but they won't look much fifferent than last gen unless we get 10X hardware boost
At the same time, the Nanite/lumen demo from unreal engine 5 was better than anything we’ve seen before it. The fact that there’s seemingly infinite level of detail and global illumination adds a ton to the image. No more pop-in, or LoD pop in and basically movie quality assets in real time was a real feast for the eyes. I’d like to see more of that on next gen. That’s when we will have the leap we’ve been waiting for.
 
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