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[Guilty_AI]

We're nowhere near the point where graphics won't get any better though

but we're at a point where we have to consider if making them better is worth it

 

[Hobbygaming]

but we're at a point where we have to consider if making them better is worth it

I disagree. Like in the UE5 demo we're starting to see what can be done through streaming assets and with less need for LODs

 

[Guilty_AI]

I disagree. Like in the UE5 demo we're starting to see what can be done through streaming assets and with less need for LODs

You talk as if thats the only thing in development that causes time and budget constraints.
If i had to say, ray tracing and lumen are much bigger advances in that department, though its not like those will solve all of their problems either, not to mention they still need to be used with care due to performance.

 

[01011001]

I disagree. Like in the UE5 demo we're starting to see what can be done through streaming assets and with less need for LODs

UE5 as of now runs like pure shit as soon as you use its more advanced graphical features. the only one that runs well is Nanite, and Nanite can only be use on static objects as of now. So many things, basically anything that moves, can not use Nanite.
Lumen is not worth using due to the extreme performance hit.

 

[Danjin44]

You talk as if thats the only thing in development that causes time and budget constraints.
If i had to say, ray tracing and lumen are much bigger advances in that department, though its not like those will solve all of their problems either, not to mention they need to be used with care due to performance.

The problem is 90% of people here think game development is magic, they don't think about resource, man power and budget constrain.

 

[Hobbygaming]

You talk as if thats the only thing in development that causes time and budget constraints.
If i had to say, ray tracing and lumen are much bigger advances in that department, though its not like those will solve all of their problems either, not to mention they still need to be used with care due to performance.

Lumen is used in the UE5 demo and keep in mind that we will have 30FPS titles as more studios drop last generation, this will free up resources and we'll start to see more impressive games

We go through this same song and dance every time

 

[Guilty_AI]

The problem is 90% of people here think game development is magic, think resource, man power and budget constrain.

Not to mention when new tech and hardware power are actually used properly, these same people will dismiss it because they think graphical improvements is just how much like a movie the game looks.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Lumen is used in the UE5 demo and keep in mind that we will have 30FPS titles as more studios drop last generation, this will free up resources and we'll start to see more impressive games

We go through this same song and dance every time

Will UE5 and SSDs also design levels and bug test games by themselves?

 

[AutumnLeaves]

but we're at a point where we have to consider if making them better is worth it

Agreed. Would rather focus on AI and interactivity. Some of the comments here...good lord.

 

[Hobbygaming]

UE5 as of now runs like pure shit as soon as you use its more advanced graphical features. the only one that runs well is Nanite, and Nanite can only be use on static objects as of now. So many things, basically anything that moves, can not use Nanite.
Lumen is not worth using due to the extreme performance hit.

We all know things get better with optimization and these devs are able to abstract even more from these engines later in the cycle. Compare any PS3 game to UC4, TLOU Pt II, etc

 

[Hobbygaming]

Will UE5 and SSDs also design levels and bug test games by themselves?

That's a necessary part of AAA game development. And also why studios are growing. Insomniac Games is already putting the SSD to use in game design

 

[crozier]

It’s that 4X jump in resolution that is holding better fidelity back.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Insomniac Games is already putting the SSD to use in game design

You know what, you do you mate. Be happy believing whatever you want, its not like you're hurting anyone

 

[Sosokrates]

I'm saying Horizon FW looks way better than Control with RT.

Then we disagree.

 

[Sosokrates]

Lumen is used in the UE5 demo and keep in mind that we will have 30FPS titles as more studios drop last generation, this will free up resources and we'll start to see more impressive games

We go through this same song and dance every time

This is beside your points, but its interesting that the coalition are targeting 60fps for UE5 on there current gen game.

 

[shenmue mugen]

Second Son was mighty impressive but if we are going to use it as a point to argue current gen is underdelivering I would like to say a few things...

The transition from ps3 to ps4 involved a resolution upgrade not as great as the one we are seeing now. PS5 and Series aren't true native 4k machines but gamers seem to demand a resolution jump that is way beyond those consoles capabilities. 1080p to native 4k (or near native) is ridiculously greater that 720p to 1080p. Second Son was within what was expected resolution wise.

PS4 generation was a 30fps generation like the previous one. But now we are seeing a paradigm shift on frame rate and 60fps is the new standard.

As impressive as Second Son was it really suffered from framerate issues during combat and had noticeable LOD transitions.

If PS5 and Series games targeted 30fps (like previous gen) and ran at resolutions within the range of their capabilities (like previous gen) we would see a REALLY high jump.

 

[Hunnybun]

You talk as if thats the only thing in development that causes time and budget constraints.
If i had to say, ray tracing and lumen are much bigger advances in that department, though its not like those will solve all of their problems either, not to mention they still need to be used with care due to performance.

But ray tracing does cut down development time, and will (presumably in the next generation) deliver spectacular returns. So your point that we're almost at the point where improvements to visuals aren't worth the dev time is therefore mistaken.

At the very least we've got one huge graphical advance left, proper fully ray traced lighting. And that's at least a generation away. So we're almost certainly at least 10 years away from the scenario you think is imminent. In reality there'll probably be other major advances left after that, too - and when lighting and LOD generation etc is all but automatic a lot of the budget will be freed up to exploit whatever those are.

 

[nordique]

I think Ratchet is as impressive now as Infamous was back then.

Returnal and Deathloop also look fantastic, but in both cases a lot of the new processing power is used to achieve 60fps. Personally I think that's the right move because nothing looks truly good in motion at 30fps, regardless of how great it might look in photo mode.

FH5 and Horizon FW also look like huge leaps over last gen, despite being cross gen.

It's true there's not as much out there to show off the systems as last time, but you know, covid. What do you want them to do about that?!

I'd tend to agree about the RT hardware. I'm not at all convinced it's strong enough to justify the sacrifices to resolution and frame rate. For me it wasn't in Ratchet, which I ended up playing in the regular 60fps mode.

I agree. R&C blew me away

 

[01011001]

We all know things get better with optimization and these devs are able to abstract even more from these engines later in the cycle. Compare any PS3 game to UC4, TLOU Pt II, etc

like I said, there was a jump, and there is a jump now, but they get smaller and smaller wich every new generation.
even if we double EVERY aspect of last gen systems... 2x resolution, 2x texture size, 2x polycount, 2x draw distance, 2x framerate... it will still be subjectively a way smaller difference than that between PS3 and PS4.

like I said, at some point, doubling the quality of something becomes almost unnoticeable. then at some point quadrupling the quality becomes almost unnoticeable... and so on and so forth.

we are at a point where you would literally not notice if a character model had 20x as many polygons as a last gen model unless you go into photo mode and zoom right up in there, but during normal play, basically unnoticeable in most cases.
and we are in a situation where the graphical power of these new consoles is only slightly more than 2x of that of the most powerful last gen system (Xbox One X)

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

While there may not be a huge difference to the extent of how much the visual features improved compared to prior gens, dimininishing returns definitely makes this gen a smaller leap especially early on.

I do think things will get better once big budget games are using next gen game engines, but gen8 games will age really well in comparison when played at a competent resolution and framerate.

As for forbidden west, it looks like a gen8 game running on a high end machine, similer to control running on a decent PC.
Both look great, but not next gen. Its like if you added more particle effects and geometric detail to bioshock infinite in 2014, it would of looked good, but it would be no doom 2016.

Another example would be RDR2, you could do the same things guerilla are doing with forbidden west, more geometric detail, higher quality textures and hero lighting on the character model. If R* did that it would look probably better then forbidden west on PS5.

If you think Control even on a PC looks comparable to H:FW then I think we can't continue this discussion because there's a lack of intellectual honesty.

 

[Hobbygaming]

You know what, you do you mate. Be happy believing whatever you want, its not like you're hurting anyone

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

Start at the part where he says "we unload"

 

[01011001]

If you think Control even on a PC looks comparable to H:FW then I think we can't continue this discussion because there's a lack of intellectual honesty.

Control on PC with everything maxed out is something not even the new Consoles can run... so yeah.
the environmental destruction in Control is ridiculous, the Raytracing is amazing, the physics are crazy.

2 differed focuses. Control can literally not run maxed out on Series X or PS5

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Control on PC with everything maxed out is something not even the new Consoles can run... so yeah.
the environmental destruction in Control is ridiculous, the Raytracing is amazing, the physics are crazy.

2 differed focuses. Control can literally not run maxed out on Series X or PS5

Bollocks

 

[Hobbygaming]

like I said, there was a jump, and there is a jump now, but they get smaller and smaller wich every new generation.
even if we double EVERY aspect of last gen systems... 2x resolution, 2x texture size, 2x polycount, 2x draw distance, 2x framerate... it will still be subjectively a way smaller difference than that between PS3 and PS4.

like I said, at some point, doubling the quality of something becomes almost unnoticeable. then at some point quadrupling the quality becomes almost unnoticeable... and so on and so forth.

we are at a point where you would literally not notice if a character model had 20x as many polygons as a last gen model unless you go into photo mode and zoom right up in there, but during normal play, basically unnoticeable in most cases.
and we are in a situation where the graphical power of these new consoles is only slightly more than 2x of that of the most powerful last gen system (Xbox One X)

We'll revisit this thread in 2023

 

[JerryinSoCal]

When the PS4 launched there were no cross-gen 1st party games, everything was built for the PS4 and even with that Cerny told us that we really wouldn't start seeing devs take real advantage of what the hardware could do until about the 3rd year in, that's likely going to be the case this time as well. We've already seen a lot of amazing looking games btw and with covid being an issue this time I think we are all going to have to be a little more patient.

 

[Sosokrates]

If you think Control even on a PC looks comparable to H:FW then I think we can't continue this discussion because there's a lack of intellectual honesty.

Lol, you accuse me of "intellectual dishonesty" just because we disagree.
Get a grip.


Ironically you started this exchange saying "its subjective" and now you say I lack intellectual honesty because we have different opinions.

 

[Hunnybun]

like I said, there was a jump, and there is a jump now, but they get smaller and smaller wich every new generation.
even if we double EVERY aspect of last gen systems... 2x resolution, 2x texture size, 2x polycount, 2x draw distance, 2x framerate... it will still be subjectively a way smaller difference than that between PS3 and PS4.

like I said, at some point, doubling the quality of something becomes almost unnoticeable. then at some point quadrupling the quality becomes almost unnoticeable... and so on and so forth.

we are at a point where you would literally not notice if a character model had 20x as many polygons as a last gen model unless you go into photo mode and zoom right up in there, but during normal play, basically unnoticeable in most cases.
and we are in a situation where the graphical power of these new consoles is only slightly more than 2x of that of the most powerful last gen system (Xbox One X)

This is all predicated on relative beauty being more impressive than absolute beauty, and also on computer processing power scaling linearly with the visual results.

It's not such a simple relationship. 2x processing power doesn't necessarily equal 2x graphical quality, since the latter is basically subjective.

You can't just assume diminishing returns like you can with certain kinds of, eg, financial investment. The output we're trying to measure is too complicated for that.

 

[Hobbygaming]

This is beside your points, but its interesting that the coalition are targeting 60fps for UE5 on there current gen game.

It is interesting and they're a good studio who are one of the best at understanding the engine outside of Epic Games but yeah we'll definitely get some 30FPS titles in the next few years

 

[Boglin]

I think Ratchet showed that exactly that is possible, as long as 1440p or thereabouts is considered a good bump.

People just need to be patient really. As far as I can see, there's been basically one AAA game developed specifically for the next gen consoles, and it delivered spectacularly.

Now it's true that it fucking sucks that that's basically the only one that's been seen, and it's really frustrating, but that is the major data point, and it's all good news.

Returnal and Deathloop both look great, but they're not exactly by studios really known for cutting edge graphics.

I did mean that 4K was the bump that some seem to be expecting.

I think Ratchet and Clank is a perfect example of demonstrating what we should expect this generation. It has 3 different visual modes with different compromises because the PS5 isn't powerful enough to do it all at once which makes sense when looking at the hardware numbers.
If someone isn't happy with that then I think their expectations were unrealistic.

Btw, Ratchet and Clank is literally the only game I've played this year and I was extremely pleased running it under the Performance RT preset.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Lol, you accuse me of "intellectual dishonesty" just because we disagree.
Get a grip.


Ironically you started this exchange saying "its subjective" and now you say I lack intellectual honest because we have different opinions.

I was being facetious.

 

[JerryinSoCal]

Ratchet is good in visual, better than what you see on PS4, no doubt about it.

The problem is you can't really see a jump from the last gen, everything is more polished now but lacks in brute force, the element we should expect in a new gen. Ryse and Killzone SF were a demonstration of brute force back in the day.

That's why UE5 demo is so impressive, it's brute force everywhere.

Killzone SF wasn't cross-gen, no first party games were because that was going to be too hard to do with the PS3 being involved so that kind of helped a bit there. It also doesn't help that so many top AAA games from the PS4 look amazing now, anyone who hasn't played Horizon ZD in a while should load it up again and remind themselves of how good that game still looks and how well it holds up to todays best looking games.

 

[Sosokrates]

Control on PC with everything maxed out is something not even the new Consoles can run... so yeah.
the environmental destruction in Control is ridiculous, the Raytracing is amazing, the physics are crazy.

2 differed focuses. Control can literally not run maxed out on Series X or PS5

How refreshing, somone with some sense.

 

[Sosokrates]

I was being facetious.

Well at least we know you're not here to have a serious discussion.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Control is a last-gen game with RT slapped on. Outside of the RT and heavy particle physics (which PS5/XSX CPUs can more than handle), there really isn't anything special it's doing in terms of rendering.

There is nothing next-gen about Control.

But that'll become clear when actual next-gen games start launching next year.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Well at least we know you're not here to have a serious discussion.

Says the founder of western console warring.

 

[Sosokrates]

Says the founder of western console warring.

So why bother talking to me in the first place?

 

[Hunnybun]

I did mean that 4K was the bump that some seem to be expecting.

I think Ratchet and Clank is a perfect example of demonstrating what we should expect this generation. It has 3 different visual modes with different compromises because the PS5 isn't powerful enough to do it all at once which makes sense when looking at the hardware numbers.
If someone isn't happy with that then I think their expectations were unrealistic.

Btw, Ratchet and Clank is literally the only game I've played this year and I was extremely pleased running it under the Performance RT preset.

I'm not sure there were really many people who expected 4k60 plus RT plus a big leap in fidelity. I mean that's probably a 3090 level of performance.

Actually we've got 4k30 plus RT plus a generational leap. As far as I'm concerned that's what R&C provided, and I think that's more than we'd any right to expect.

So for me the PS5 has basically already proven itself. Now it's a matter of waiting for covid/cross gen etc to pass. It's shit we have to wait, but I no longer have much doubt that it's gonna be a really big leap forward this generation.

 

[JerryinSoCal]

Control is a last-gen game with RT slapped on. Outside of the RT and heavy particle physics (which PS5/XSX CPUs can more than handle), there really isn't anything special it's doing in terms of rendering.

There is nothing next-gen about Control.

But that'll become clear when actual next-gen games start launching next year.

It's not even a good looking game IMO, nothing stands out graphically at all in any way.

 

[alabtrosMyster]

These new machines mostly feel like PS4 PRO PRO and Xbox one X X

Actually we've got 4k30 plus RT plus a generational leap. As far as I'm concerned that's what R&C provided, and I think that's more than we'd any right to expect.

By the numbers yes, but tell me you see a generational leap at a glance:

It's not as striking, even with the games that have Ray Tracing... I say this as a PS5 owner, I do really enjoy it, but I don't expect things to get much better than they are now (some improvement? sure, but it won't ever be like getting a Dreamcast while your buddies have their PS1).

 

[SenjutsuSage]

So we're really going to do this again? Every single time I hear there will be nothing that impresses this gen, the people saying it are always proven wrong. Not only that game, but even Ryse was a beast at launch, on base Xbox One no less. These two consoles are loaded with power and capability. The typical optimizations consoles benefit from will benefit these consoles more than any in prior years or generations. I don't think people appreciate what precisely these two consoles can do and will be capable of as the gen matures.

Edit: Control is very impressive. I'm stunned there are people seriously trying to downplay its impressiveness.

 

[Tarkus98]

While it’s true that this gen hardware doesn’t have enough umph to implement Ray tracing at a truly realized high/complex level I think it was great to enable implementation of the tech.
This is giving programmers the chance to become familiar with the relatively new tech and coming up with creative solutions to getting it working as optimally as possible given the hardware restrictions.
This will go a long way next gen when Ray tracing should be able to really sing on more advanced hardware.
I think some of the early implementations have already been pretty damn impressive. Insomniac has been doing all kinds of wizardry to implement RT at 60fps without completely degrading the graphical quality of their games like R&C and MM.
I’m sure some pretty important shit is being fleshed out that will benefit Ray tracing greatly in the future.
What was the original question? Lol. Oh, first gen games on these new consoles. Yeah, some lookers like every gen. Will be some truly eye melting shit that will come to be sure. Be patient ÿa’ll.

 

[AutumnLeaves]

So we're really going to do this again? Every single time I hear there will be nothing that impresses this gen, the people saying it are always proven wrong. Not only that game, but even Ryse was a beast at launch, on base Xbox One no less. These two consoles are loaded with power and capability. The typical optimizations consoles benefit from will benefit these consoles more than any in prior years or generations. I don't think people appreciate what precisely these two consoles can do and will be capable of as the gen matures.

Yeah, don't understand it either. Ryse was indeed amazing! I suppose there are individuals whose expectations are way high.

 

[Neff]

I keep saying it- technology doesn't limit the ceiling anymore. Time, money and people do.

TLoU2 is one of the best-looking games in the world because it had a top tier developer, an unlimited budget and 7 years in the oven, even though it was made for 8 year old hardware at the time.

You can dick-measure all the tflops you want but they're meaningless. It comes down to pure human ability and graft now.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

I disagree. Like in the UE5 demo we're starting to see what can be done through streaming assets and with less need for LODs

First real UE 5 game....

April...

 

[Sosokrates]

I keep saying it- technology doesn't limit the ceiling anymore. Time, money and people do.

TLoU2 is one of the best-looking games in the world because it had a top tier developer, an unlimited budget and 7 years in the oven, even though it was made for 8 year old hardware at the time.

You can dick-measure all the tflops you want but they're meaningless. It comes down to pure human ability and graft now.

It will be interesting to see how hellblade 2 compares to bigger budget games, hellblade is only being done by a small team.

 

[Tchu-Espresso]

Yup it's the same every generation, people always say diminishing returns are here and yet developers always find new ways to improve visuals

We're going to have some stunning games especially when more studios start designing their games around not having to keep everything in ram

Do you know what diminishing returns means? It doesn’t mean games just stop looking better over time..

 

[Hobbygaming]

These new machines mostly feel like PS4 PRO PRO and Xbox one X X


By the numbers yes, but tell me you see a generational leap at a glance:

It's not as striking, even with the games that have Ray Tracing... I say this as a PS5 owner, I do really enjoy it, but I don't expect things to get much better than they are now (some improvement? sure, but it won't ever be like getting a Dreamcast while your buddies have their PS1).

 

[Kazekage1981]

zen 2 and rdna 2 generation will start in 2024-2025 when xbox series x pro and playstation 5 pro is released, where developers can finally let go of jaguar and vega/polaris

 

[Hobbygaming]

Do you know what diminishing returns means? It doesn’t mean games just stop looking better over time..

Yes I do and I'm saying we're not there and we're still going to get a big generational leap this time like the jump from PS3 to PS4

 

[Amiga]

Biggest advancements this generation are framerates and loading times. Things you can't show in a screenshot.