Support NeoGAF

[nkarafo]

Shadow the Hedgehog, 06, Unleashed, Secret Rings, and Black Knight are all fairly serious stories with themes adults can identify with.

That was Sonic's whole shtick in the 90s, wasn't it? The cool, spunky rodent with an attitude to counter the comparatively plain Mario?

Yeah but it was presented in a more subtle way. The characters wouldn't talk (not even via text) and there was no more story that it needed to. And the cut-scenes in S3&K were short and sweet. Sonic was indeed cool and not the edgelord he is now.

Sonic Mania says hello.

Funny how you picked that game for this argument. And i mean, i agree with you. It's the one nostalgia fueled Sonic game that is based exclusively on the original trilogy (half of the levels and music are remakes from these games) have the same gameplay and physics and it was made to be unlike the shitty modern Sonic games but more like the old ones. Which is why it's so good.

Before Sonic Mania, the best modern Sonic was Generations. Because that also reminded people of the older games.

 

[Kholinar]

Not wrong, though, am I?

Yeah but it was presented in a more subtle way. The characters wouldn't talk (not even via text) and there was no more story that it needed to. And the cut-scenes in S3&K were short and sweet. Sonic was indeed cool and not the edgelord he is now.

I'm preeetty sure that was owed to the limitations of the generation, not by any intentional design. Also, in what fashion is Sonic an edgelord? I don't think there's a single thing that he himself has done that can be classified as edgy. In fact, that might extend to the whole franchise barring the gratuitous Shadow the Hedgehog game.

Before Sonic Mania, the best modern Sonic was Generations. Because that also reminded people of the older games.

That's highly debatable. Apart from Classic Sonic himself, there were only like three classic stages; the game is mostly populated by stages from the latter half of the hedgehog's lifespan. Because it's so hard to believe that people actually cherish and grew up on a Sonic post-retro, right? If Sonic truly was trash after the 90s, the franchise still wouldn't be SEGA's most performant IP, would it? It's still kicking strong after 30 years, and got a movie that did exceptionally well at the box office - and was poised to do more if not for COVID.

 

[nkarafo]

Not wrong, though, am I?

I think you are very wrong. Can't take seriously an adult who takes Modern Sonic narrative seriously. But that's just me i guess.

I'm preeetty sure that was owed to the limitations of the generation, not by any intentional design.

You just assume this. Also, this is exactly why i specifically mentioned dialog/narrative via text. If they really wanted to focus on the story, they could still use text. Like how all story heavy games did at the time. Even in S3&K (that has an extra character and extra story bits) they still chose to show everything via very short cut-scenes and no dialog. This was a deliberate design choice that i appreciate.

I don't really have an issue with story heavy games tbh. My problem is the way they choose to present said story. Super Metroid is a story heavy game. But it's presented in a completely different and subtler way than your mainstream, dumbed down, long cut-scene game. The later is what i dislike the most. It made Sonic look like a pre-school children's show. But most of all i disliked the voice acting. I couldn't stand listening to Sonic or (even worse) Tails talking.

Sonic 3 & Knuckles was cool and subtle. It still is one of my favorite 2D platform games. Sonic Adventure + later Sonic games were a cringefest. They completely changed the tone. Not to mention all the stupid ideas like werewolf Sonic. Or Sonic with a sword for some reason.

The music was still good i guess.

If Sonic truly was trash after the 90s, the franchise still wouldn't be SEGA's most performant IP, would it? It's still kicking strong after 30 years, and got a movie that did exceptionally well at the box office - and was poised to do more if not for COVID.

Yes, i bet it sells very well to little kids. Like very, very young children. Much younger than how i was in the 90's. And maybe a lot of older fans who still have faith on the franchise for some reason (even i did bought Generations and Sonic Mania). Also, the tumblr and furry communities seem to love Sonic a LOT.

 

[Dacon]

Sequel needs more game music plz

 

[Kholinar]

I think you are very wrong. Can't take seriously an adult who takes Modern Sonic narrative seriously. But that's just me i guess.

I mean, I can't really figure out what's so 'childish' about the narratives of the majority of Sonic games.

I mean, despite being the worst Sonic game, this scene here is surprisingly profound, and one I'd be hard-pressed to call childish:



There's not much content in Sonic's history that I'd argue have been treated with the childish flippancy that most kid-orientated media do. Happy to be proven wrong, though.

You just assume this. Also, this is exactly why i specifically mentioned dialog/narrative via text. If they really wanted to focus on the story, they could still use text. Like how all story heavy games did at the time. Even in S3&K (that has an extra character and extra story bits) they still chose to show everything via very short cut-scenes and no dialog. This was a deliberate design choice that i appreciate.

Games at the time didn't have the processing capability nor space to justify creating stories merely to personify their characters. You're assuming omitting text or dialogue is the result of wanting to intentionally keep Sonic tacit, rather than simply wanting to focus on gameplay or preserve the filesize. Besides, Sonic had a voice actor in the SATAM show, which was made like two years after the release of Sonic 1 and before the release of Sonic 3. SEGA definitely had an interest in characterizing Sonic, but the processing power clearly wasn't there to justify that being in the games.

I don't really have an issue with story heavy games tbh. My problem is the way they choose to present said story. Super Metroid is a story heavy game. But it's presented in a completely different and subtler way than your mainstream, dumbed down, long cut-scene game. The later is what i dislike the most. It made Sonic look like a pre-school children's show. But most of all i disliked the voice acting. I couldn't stand listening to Sonic or (even worse) Tails talking.

Cutscenes don't even take a fraction of most Sonic game lengths. SA2 takes, on average, 10 hours to beat and there's like an 1h30 minutes of cutscenes. Sonic 06, the most story-heavy Sonic game to date, also has the same cutscene length, but it takes 16 hours to beat.

Sonic 3 & Knuckles was cool and subtle. It still is one of my favorite 2D platform games. Sonic Adventure + later Sonic games were a cringefest. They completely changed the tone. Not to mention all the stupid ideas like werewolf Sonic. Or Sonic with a sword for some reason.

If Sonic stagnated as a simple 2d platformer, it wouldn't be the behemoth of an IP it is today. I think the franchise's escalation served it well, much to the distaste of you retro fans.

Yes, i bet it sells very well to little kids. Like very, very young children. Much younger than how i was in the 90's. And maybe a lot of older fans who still have faith on the franchise for some reason (even i did bought Generations and Sonic Mania). Also, the tumblr and furry communities seem to love Sonic a LOT.

Sonic is E for everyone. The franchise is amicable to children, of course, but any old chap can enjoy them.

 

[nkarafo]

I'm sorry. Sonic games taking themselves so seriously with the human characters and the melodrama is... so cringe worthy to me. It's completely tone deaf. Which is why i rate it as childish. In that, only a child would look at it and not completely hate it. I guess i was wrong. Different strokes then.

Also, you keep repeating the same narrative about "hardware wasn't good enough otherwise they would focus on the story" even though i repeatedly mentioned how story heavy games existed back then with cut-scenes and written dialog. If the developers really wanted to make Sonic a story driven game, they would just do the same thing. But if you really want to be proven wrong, i could just point to the Sega CD. They could easily make a story with spoken dialog and FMVs ot cut scenes in Sonic CD if they wanted. But they only made a cool looking FMV with Sonic just running around. More like an animation demo, sort of. That was it (thankfully).

Basically, the tone and style of the old games was different and no, hardware limitations had nothing to do with it. Sonic was how it was supposed to be then.

And i didn't care about the cartoon shows. Different medium. I was already too old for them but i still adored S3&K. It's almost as if they were two completely different things. Mario also had some children's shows that have nothing to do with the way the games are presented.

 

[Krathoon]

I liked Sonic Colors. I wonder where I put my copy.

 

[Kholinar]

I'm sorry. Sonic games taking themselves so seriously with the human characters and the melodrama is... so cringe worthy to me. It's completely tone deaf. Which is why i rate it as childish. In that, only a child would look at it and not completely hate it. I guess i was wrong. Different strokes then.

Is that why the Sonic movie grossed over 300 million despite COVID and a lack of a release in China stifling any further milestones? I see nothing but praise for that movie from all ages on most sites I visit. No one particularly finds Sonic interacting with humans cringe. Literally only retro fans, who are an extremely minority bunch, thankfully.

Also, you keep repeating the same narrative about "hardware wasn't good enough otherwise they would focus on the story" even though i repeatedly mentioned how story heavy games existed back then with cut-scenes and written dialog. If the developers really wanted to make Sonic a story driven game, they would just do the same thing. But if you really want to be proven wrong, i could just point to the Sega CD. They could easily make a story with spoken dialog and FMVs ot cut scenes in Sonic CD if they wanted. But they only made a cool looking FMV with Sonic just running around. More like an animation demo, sort of. That was it (thankfully).

What game had extensive cutscenes and dialog on the Genesis? There just wasn't enough processing capabilities to justify any extensive story being present in the retro games. It just wasn't a priority as opposed to pure gameplay. As soon as there was the capability, like in the Dreamcast, they obviously jumped on that ship. Sonic CD's cinematic was just a music montage, not an extension of some unknown philosophy to keep Sonic mute.

And i didn't care about the cartoon shows. Different medium. I was already too old for them but i still adored S3&K. It's almost as if they were two completely different things. Mario also had some children's shows that have nothing to do with the way the games are presented.

It's relevant because Sonic was never intended to be kept mute, games, or otherwise. He had multiple cartoons and OVAs with voices attached, and I don't recall Yuji Naka ever expressing discontent at that fact. In fact, he even had some brief dialog in the Sonic 2 game manual.

 

[nkarafo]

Is that why the Sonic movie grossed over 300 million despite COVID and a lack of a release in China stifling any further milestones? I see nothing but praise for that movie from all ages on most sites I visit. No one particularly finds Sonic interacting with humans cringe. Literally only retro fans, who are an extremely minority bunch, thankfully.

I'm talking about the games. Don't care about Sonic on other mediums. I see it as a separate thing. So i might watch the movie because of that.

There just wasn't enough processing capabilities to justify any extensive story being present in the retro games. It just wasn't a priority as opposed to pure gameplay. As soon as there was the capability, like in the Dreamcast, they obviously jumped on that ship. Sonic CD's cinematic was just a music montage, not an extension of some unknown philosophy to keep Sonic mute.

Why are you ignoring my point and repeat yourself? Are you trolling me?

There were plenty of extensive story driven games on 16bit or even 8bit consoles. It's called TEXT. Have you ever seen a story heavy game that was released before 2000? They exist you know. How old are you?

My point is if they wanted Sonic to talk or have an extensive story in the older games, they could. Your theory that they had to cut back on their "vision" on the Genesis games because "hardware wasn't there" is bullshit. Because, duh, story heavy games exist on the Genesis. Or the Master System. Or the NES.

You are just assuming things without receipts.

It's relevant because Sonic was never intended to be kept mute, games, or otherwise.

More assumptions. Show me the sources where Naka says Sonic was meant to focus on the narrative from the beginning.

and I don't recall Yuji Naka ever expressing discontent at that fact.

Yuji Naka isn't god. I used to like his older games. I don't care about his new ones.

In fact, he even had some brief dialog in the Sonic 2 game manual.

If they kept the story in the manual in all other games, i would probably liked them much more. Like i said, i don't have a problem with the story itself, but with the way they present it.

 

[Kholinar]

I'm talking about the games. Don't care about Sonic on other mediums. I see it as a separate thing. So i might watch the movie because of that.

They're the same character...

There were plenty of extensive story driven games on 16bit or even 8bit consoles. It's called TEXT. Have you ever seen a story heavy game that was released before 2000? They exist you know. How old are you?

Well, it just so happens that pure text isn't a compelling medium to drive story, especially in a video game, nor would it be a viable reason to break the frenetic pace of Sonic gameplay just to input a few droning walls of text. Why is it so hard to believe that there wasn't enough tools and processing power to justify there being a story? Why do you think during the advent of 3D, where real-time cinematics was finally made possible, among other advancements, that most video game icons suddenly started to speak and have extensive stories?

My point is if they wanted Sonic to talk or have an extensive story in the older games, they could. Your theory that they had to cut back on their "vision" on the Genesis games because "hardware wasn't there" is bullshit. Because, duh, story heavy games exist on the Genesis. Or the Master System. Or the NES.

Such as?

If they kept the story in the manual in all other games, i would probably liked them much more. Like i said, i don't have a problem with the story itself, but with the way they present it.

Luckily, SEGA appeals to the majority. Sucks to be you, I guess.

 

[nkarafo]

Such as?

lol

 

[Krathoon]

What I like about the movie is that it works as a back story for Sonic. You can hook it onto the lore.

 

[OmegaSpirit32X]

Sorry but Sonic took a very bad direction after the Mega Drive games. Heavy focus on a children's cartoon narrative, tons of extra shitty characters, Sonic talking like an edgy teenager, janky 3D games, worse physics than the older games, etc. What else do you want me to tell you? Why are Sonic fanboys like this...

"heavy focus on a children's cartoon narrative" and is that a really a bad thing? as someone who grow up with a lot of kids shows and anime trought the 2000's with a very similar tone, i kinda like it.
"Sonic talking like an edgy character" his whole character was being an edgy teenager since the 90's.
"janky 3D Games" matter of taste, a lot of people loved games like the adventure games or unleashed
"worse physics" the SA games felt good tbh, maybe not up there with the classics but def up there with Mario 64 or something.

 

[OmegaSpirit32X]

Such as?

giving him the benefit of the doubt games like Landstalker, Phantasy star and other JRPG's existed on Genesis, although the SNES still had way more, and more iconic ones none

Sonic's secondary cast being egregiously bad is rather overblown. Only the Chaotix fit that categorization, IMO.

not even the Chaotix aren't that bad, they serve their porpouse, but we can all agree the deadly six are the ultimate mistake

 

[OmegaSpirit32X]

What I like about the movie is that it works as a back story for Sonic. You can hook it onto the lore.

There are so many inconsistences within this and the videogame canon lore id rather have it as it's own thing.

 

[Unknown?]

There are so many inconsistences within this and the videogame canon lore id rather have it as it's own thing.

I doubt Sega will be adopting the movie arc into the games just like they never made Archie universe cannon.

 

[OmegaSpirit32X]

I doubt Sega will be adopting the movie arc into the games just like they never made Archie universe cannon.

true, if anything IDW seems more likely than than any other canon considering how close to the japanese canon it is.

 

[OmegaSpirit32X]

There were plenty of extensive story driven games on 16bit or even 8bit consoles. It's called TEXT. Have you ever seen a story heavy game that was released before 2000? They exist you know. How old are you?

My point is if they wanted Sonic to talk or have an extensive story in the older games, they could. Your theory that they had to cut back on their "vision" on the Genesis games because "hardware wasn't there" is bullshit. Because, duh, story heavy games exist on the Genesis. Or the Master System. Or the NES.

If they kept the story in the manual in all other games, i would probably liked them much more. Like i said, i don't have a problem with the story itself, but with the way they present it.

the reason was that the new tone was both entirely accidental and deliberate, not only they had to rework a scrapped Sonic RPG into a main tittle, other companies like Playstation, who threatened SEGA and overshadowed Nintendo as their competition, making more movie-esque games like Metal Gear Solid or Final Fantasy 7, and SEGA themselves making games like Sjenmue or Skies of Arcadia, Anime starting to gain a lot of traction in the west thanks to Toonami and other blocks, and the fact that the overall tone of Sonic was heacvily inspired by shows like Dragon Ball and even got an OVA wich was animated by Studio Pierrot, who made YuYu Hakusho and would later animate Naruto, Mario getting his own voice actor and gaining more personality, everything that made Sonic cool in 91' stopped being cool in 98'.

it all made the change necessary, and just like Sonic's creation in the first place, it worked for younger kids, who grew up watching Sailor Moon, Dragon Ball Z, Pokemon, Digimon, YuGiOh! and who knows what other shows they brought to the west, bassicly tought of the stories in Sonic Adventure or Sonic Adventure 2 as yet another cool Japanese cartoon with action and angsty rivals, and even if they did get access to Mega Collection or Gems collection on Gamecube or PS2 wich is how a lot of younger kids got to play the Genesis games, they still saw sonic as that due to stuff like them still using the Modern Designs or maybe the fact that the comics became super serious and edgy WAY before the games did. you may think of other media as a completely different things, but for us it didn't matter if it was a videogame, Anime or Comic, it was the same thing, Sonic was just Sonic.

 

[IbizaPocholo]

 

[AGRacing]

As an adult, I enjoyed the Sonic movie for the nostalgia it brought to me and the smile it brought to my young son....

But if you happen to believe there's an "adult theme" in Sonic '06, for example, it is more likely you are just not yet an adult in the way most would define it. I'd say maybe closer to a "Michael Jackson having a birthday party at Neverland Ranch for Bubbles" kind of adult.

 

[IbizaPocholo]

 

[IbizaPocholo]

The world’s favorite blue hedgehog is back for a next-level adventure in SONIC THE HEDGEHOG 2. After settling in Green Hills, Sonic is eager to prove he has what it takes to be a true hero. His test comes when Dr. Robotnik returns, this time with a new partner, Knuckles, in search for an emerald that has the power to destroy civilizations. Sonic teams up with his own sidekick, Tails, and together they embark on a globe-trotting journey to find the emerald before it falls into the wrong hands. From the filmmakers behind The Fast and the Furious and Deadpool, SONIC THE HEDGEHOG 2 stars James Marsden, Ben Schwartz as the voice of Sonic, Tika Sumpter, Natasha Rothwell, Adam Pally, and Jim Carrey returning, alongside new additions Shemar Moore, with Idris Elba as the voice of Knuckles, and Colleen O'Shaughnessey as the voice of Tails.

 

[OmegaSpirit32X]

The trailer actually looks good. I didn't like the first movie because it felt like a cookie-cutter "cartoon character IRL" roadtrip kids movie. and while I bet this movie will be just as unfunny as the last one, It's cool that with this and Frontiers, they're finallly bringing back that epicness the Adventure games had.

 

[Fake]

OP updated.

 

[Saber]

That trailer looks fucking amazing!

Now the trio is on, I loved Knuckles debut in the movie.

 

[BlackTron]

Wow everything about the trailer was actually really on point. I don't think the first one was as great as everyone made out, but it managed to be a video game movie that was not actively horrible, which was itself a big accomplishment.

The trailer for 2 makes it seem like a big improvement with a lot more "Sonic DNA" in the movie. Tails + Tornado showing up for 2 feels like parity with the Sonic 2 game -there is a scene that is essentially Sky Chase Zone. Robotnik comes back with big mustache and robot army. Knuckles is a badass brute who scoffs at Sonic and messes up his game, while being a pawn for Robotnik -basically Sonic 3.

It just looks like a game movie with a lot more stuff taken from the games instead of just importing the character. I have a feeling it will make the first movie look like that terrible first version of a game you never want to play again once the sequel comes out.

But the Phantom Menace trailer looked really good too sooo...time will tell.

 

[KormaChameleon]

The first film was surprisingly good so I am looking forward to this one.

 

[Kadve]

Looks like they got themselves a major budget upgrade. Also looks like it would be more of an action movie than the buddy-roadtrip of the original and im glad that we have gone past moppy and depressed sonic of the first.

Still, taking a nosedive into the source materials lore has never really worked with movie adaption sequels. Part that made the first one good is that you can understand it even without knowing much of Sonic so lets hope they don't go overboard like say, Mortal Kombat did.

 

[SEGA_2012]

Saw this on Reddit by user sanimis and LOLed !

 

[tygertrip]

Nvm

 

[carlosrox]

Is it just me or does this look quite good?

I mean, the first movie turned out pretty damn well so I shouldn't be too surprised, but this looks even better!

Tails looks very well done.

 

[tygertrip]

lol

I know this is real old, but I just had to comment. Nkarafo, you hooked a GENUINE, 100%, lolcow! He even got so bussy blasted he actually said (paraphrased) that a compelling story can not be delivered through text. Guess he has never heard of books. He was probably too busy watching Saturday morning cartoons. Anyway, Good work! Edit: This is referring to your argument with the lolcow who insists the post genesis sonics are sophisticated stories with adult themes.

 

[HellforLeather]

If Sonic 1 came out 15 years ago, I think it would have been one of the biggest kids movies of the time (today there is just too much entertainment vying for the same audience). It was surprisingly good and its always fun to see Jim Carrey go maximum goofy.

 

[kraspkibble]

dont care about sonic but i'll watch it for jim carrey.

 

[carlosrox]

I honestly thought the Jim Carrey stuff was a bit too much for me. I actually liked Sonic and his friendship with Cyclops the most.

Happy to see him - nah - all of them return.

Very nice Sonic Adventure nods in it!

 

[Nankatsu]

Knuckles and Tails look damn dope.

Movie feels very promising.

 

[Star-Lord]

I genuinely enjoyed the first film, and this looks set to improvise upon what was already a good formula.

 

[mcjmetroid]

Question since the movie is calling him dr Robotnick again, can we hope for the games to go back to that?

Eggman fucking sucks.

 

[NahaNago]

Just saw the trailer. I thought it looked pretty good. I still dislike the fact that it is set in the real world and would have preferred a full cg world movie.

 

[Excess]

Sonic 3 vibes. Hype!

 

[IbizaPocholo]

 

[Y0ssarian]

 

[ZoukGalaxy]

I'm really impressed, from the total first trailer fiasco to this, that's impressive and I love it !
Really loved the first Sonic more than I would have thought you to be honest.

 

[Magic Carpet]

I still have not seen the first one. Is it on Netflix yet?

 

[Kenshin775]

I still have not seen the first one. Is it on Netflix yet?

No but its on Hulu

 

[sinnergy]

It’s on prime also.

Anyway , really liked the first one , much better than expected, Jim Carey was brilliant.

 

[IbizaPocholo]

 

[IbizaPocholo]

 

[01011001]

look how cute Tails looks in this... and now imagine how Tails would have looked if they went with the original style and somehow made enough money to make a sequel xD
the sheer thought haunts me from time to time

 

[IbizaPocholo]

Check out the Big Game Spot for the upcoming movie, Sonic the Hedgehog 2, which stars James Marsden, Ben Schwartz as the voice of Sonic, Tika Sumpter, Natasha Rothwell, Adam Pally, Lee Majdoub, Jim Carrey, Shemar Moore, Idris Elba as the voice of Knuckles, and Colleen O'Shaughnessey as the voice of Tails. Watch the new Sonic 2 teaser trailer.

After settling in Green Hills, Sonic is eager to prove he has what it takes to be a true hero. His test comes when Dr. Robotnik returns, this time with a new partner, Knuckles, in search for an emerald that has the power to destroy civilizations. Sonic teams up with his own sidekick, Tails, and together they embark on a globe-trotting journey to find the emerald before it falls into the wrong hands.

Sonic the Hedgehog 2, directed by Jeff Fowler, arrives in theaters on April 8, 2022.