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Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles: Lock-On Power!

RK128

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Jan 6, 2014
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nah, is not about the budget. It's not happening because Sega doesn't want the port, probably because good old licensing issues.

Sealth pretty much hinted about it if I'm not mistaken.

That is strange that you brought that up, as Sega doesn't fully own Sonic 1 & 2's score, but they have full rights to Sonic 3&K's score. They have to licence it out from the JP Musician they hired for Sonic 1 & 2 every time a port/version/track remix/ect releases.

With Sonic 3, they own all the music to that. Licencing might be an issue for some of the MJ Composed songs (Ice Cap, Launch Base) but I don't see that being much of an issue considering how Sega does own the rights to those songs. They own all the rights to the S&K half of the game, so that explains Sky Sanctuary appearing in Generations for example.

If I'm wrong about anything, feel free to correct me :).
 

Zalman

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But that sprite...
3's better.
 

Combichristoffersen

Combovers don't work when there is no hair
Jun 26, 2009
23,392
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1,175
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Anyone have any details about how the LOCK ON TECHNOLOGY worked? I'm curious

Unlike other methods of connecting cartridges (for example, in the Game Genie cheat device), Lock-On works by using special circuitry that combines multiple ROM chips into a single address space, depending on which game is inserted into the cartridge's slot. The result is that the console thinks that one big cartridge is plugged in.

http://segaretro.org/Lock-On_Technology
 

gwarm01

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Apr 5, 2006
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It was hard beating the final boss in Sonic 2 because Knuckles has a slightly shorter jump. You really had to time the attack right to avoid hitting those claws.

One of my favorite games ever and a big part of my childhood. Who's laughing now, Fatman!?
 

Darkstorne

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May 26, 2014
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But that sprite...

I always preferred 3's sprites. They looked more... animated? I felt 1+2's look stiffer.

Also, what was up with the UK's cover art for Sonic 3? Normally we get amazing box art for games, but this one was just... what art direction for Sonic is this?



Also, Sonic can't count confirmed.
 

Ferr986

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Oct 6, 2012
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That is strange that you brought that up, as Sega doesn't fully own Sonic 1 & 2's score, but they have full rights to Sonic 3&K's score. They have to licence it out from the JP Musician they hired for Sonic 1 & 2 every time a port/version/track remix/ect releases.

With Sonic 3, they own all the music to that. Licencing might be an issue for some of the MJ Composed songs (Ice Cap, Launch Base) but I don't see that being much of an issue considering how Sega does own the rights to those songs. They own all the rights to the S&K half of the game, so that explains Sky Sanctuary appearing in Generations for example.

If I'm wrong about anything, feel free to correct me :).

I found Stealth post about Sonic 3 remaster

The “restructuring” that SEGA has been undergoing for the past few years had finally taken its toll; almost right after Sonic 2 was finished, the available and relevant company contacts had been shaken up, creating a situation that was akin-enough to starting over.

This ultimately led to the development of the previously-mentioned prototype as a means to display seriousness. The prototype reached its current state just before E3 2014, where it was presented to a few relevant people. As can be inferred from various events that followed, the project was obviously not picked up. Silence was maintained on the issue until October, on the anniversary of the (complete) game’s release, when a presentation was made so that the work put into the prototype wouldn’t go to waste entirely.

This presentation gained a lot of attention, being mentioned by a few prominent gaming sites that brought it to a very broad audience. It’s reasonable to expect that this didn’t go unnoticed, but obviously, it did not cause the project to be picked up.

Over time, word has reached me from various sources that there is a legal issue of some sort regarding Sonic 3. Naturally, I don’t have any more solid information, since I’m not involved with the issue itself, however, it should come as no surprise because there had long been rumors of legal issues regarding some of the music that have reached the public from multiple sources. More recently, Cirocco Jones mentioned in early 2012 that there was a lawsuit “going on or about to go on” in relation to Sonic 3, and referred an interviewer to Bobby Brooks, who responded very negatively to being asked anything at all about it. Both quotes can be found here. Some people believe that this is in conflict with more recent releases of the game and the fact that they are still available, however, the last release of Sonic 3 (& Knuckles) was for Steam in 2011, the year immediately preceding the point at which Cirocco Jones mentioned actual, in-progress legal action, and about two years before the Sonic 1 remaster was begun. Also it’s not unreasonable to believe that whatever is happening doesn’t actually require SEGA to remove existing releases since we don’t know specifically what the dispute is and what terms may be in the works.

It’s not an absolute certainty that this is the one sole reason that the remaster project wasn’t picked up, but it’s a very distinct possibility, which is why I recommend preparing for a possible change in parts of the soundtrack, and making SEGA aware that this, being a necessary step to allow further releases of Sonic 3 due to the legal dispute, will not deter you from actually buying the game when it’s released. If you tell them “I want Sonic 3”, they read “I want Sonic 3, exactly like it was originally, no exceptions, and if it’s any different I actually won’t buy it”. You have to explicitly tell them “I want Sonic 3, and if it means that some of the disputed content has to be changed, that’s fine because the game will still be good and I will still buy it”. There is no guarantee that any current dispute will actually be resolved, so it should not be expected, but in the event that it is, it would be trivial to implement the disputed content in an existing remaster.

You're right about Sonic 1 & 2 music, but there's got to be something going on with Sonic 3 music that is not just paying rights. What is it? I dunno :/ There was a lot of external composers with Sonic 3 music, not just MJ, but all of his staff, so rights about that music may be more complicated that what we think.
 

Ristifer

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Nov 7, 2015
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My favourite game of all-time. Still play S3&K on a regular basis, and the stages all seem fresh to me. I think I've bought this game at least 6 times in my gaming history. I'll buy it again if, you know, Taxman.

I must be the only one who loves Marble Garden though haha. Maybe I'm a bit biased but I love everything about it. The aesthetic, the music, the overall feel of it.

Well, I think I'm going to play it again today.
 

RK128

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Jan 6, 2014
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I found Stealth post about Sonic 3 remaster



You're right about Sonic 1 & 2 music, but there's got to be something going on with Sonic 3 music that is not just paying rights. What is it? I dunno :/ There was a lot of external composers with Sonic 3 music, not just MJ, but all of his staff, so rights about that music may be more complicated that what we think.

Mmm....maybe some of MJ's lawyers are not happy that he wasn't credited for the game, despite the fact he willing said "Nah, I don't like this. But you can still use this for the game."

That is the only reason I could picture being legal issues over Sonic 3, otherwise its just Sega being stupid with managing contracts, rights and other ownership stuff.
 

Sir_Crocodile

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Mar 31, 2009
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My favourite game of all-time. Still play S3&K on a regular basis, and the stages all seem fresh to me. I think I've bought this game at least 6 times in my gaming history. I'll buy it again if, you know, Taxman.

I must be the only one who loves Marble Garden though haha. Maybe I'm a bit biased but I love everything about it. The aesthetic, the music, the overall feel of it.

Well, I think I'm going to play it again today.

I liked Marble Garden. Especially the spinning platforms and the escape-from-the-level-crushing-you bit before the boss
 

dlauv

Member
Apr 6, 2014
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One summer I played this, Armored Core 2, and Devil May Cry 3. Like, all summer. Probably 2k5. Tho I didn't own Sonic 3 until like, 2k3.

S3&K never really clicked with me until then.

I'm really glad it's getting the appreciation it deserves here. Probably my favorite platformer.

S3 is the weaker of the two games tho. Marble Garden and Casino Night are just drags with few shining moments, and Ice Cap is kind of uneventful after a few run throughs. Angel Island and Launch Base are top tier tho.
 

Inferno313

Banned
Jun 5, 2009
14,250
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Sonic 3 & Knuckles is a fucking masterpiece. If the game wasn't split into two, I honestly think people would look back at it like they do Super Mario Bros 3 or Ocarina of Time. Playing the whole thing in one go is an incredible experience.
 

XNarte

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Feb 22, 2011
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I often forget how much I loved this game growing up. It's definitely in my top ten for sure, and is my favorite game in the series. Love love love the levels, story, graphics, powerups, music, everything. Might play through it this weekend now.

Also have been listening to this ever since reading the thread :)

Jetzons- Hard Times
 

Inferno313

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Jun 5, 2009
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Sky Sanctuary Zone is probably my favorite zone in a Sonic game, flying up that beam of light with Knuckles and seeing the Death Egg in the background as that superb music kicks in is masterful.
 

RowdyReverb

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Mar 27, 2014
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I found Stealth post about Sonic 3 remaster



You're right about Sonic 1 & 2 music, but there's got to be something going on with Sonic 3 music that is not just paying rights. What is it? I dunno :/ There was a lot of external composers with Sonic 3 music, not just MJ, but all of his staff, so rights about that music may be more complicated that what we think.
It's a damn shame. Their remakes were masterful. I'd gladly play S3&K with music from Sonic 2 if It meant getting another game from them.
 

RK128

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It's a damn shame. Their remakes were masterful. I'd gladly play S3&K with music from Sonic 2 if It meant getting another game from them.

I'm surprised Sega Japan/Sega America doesn't contact some people from within Sonic Team or the fan community to make new Sonic tracks that could hypothetically be used for a Sonic 3&K remaster.

It would be a great way to work with the community and avoid the legal BS that is trapping the remaster in limbo.
 
Aug 29, 2009
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Not GAF, lol
I love the "unlike Sonic I don't chuckle" line from Kuckle's Adventure theme, because literally the first time the world saw Knuckles in a video game, he's chuckling.

And basically every scene after that where you meet Knuckles... he's chuckling.
 

RK128

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I love the "unlike Sonic I don't chuckle" line from Kuckle's theme, because literally the first time the world saw Knuckles in a video game, he's chuckling.

Had to put in the OP for his grand introduction :'). Love the Knuckles themes from SA2 and seeing him in Sonic 3&K was the perfect time to reference those amazing themes XD!
 

Ferr986

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Oct 6, 2012
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I'm surprised Sega Japan/Sega America doesn't contact some people from within Sonic Team or the fan community to make new Sonic tracks that could hypothetically be used for a Sonic 3&K remaster.

It would be a great way to work with the community and avoid the legal BS that is trapping the remaster in limbo.

They probably don't want any fan stuff in there. They didn't let Taxman add his take on R2 and Final Fever on the Sonic CD remaster. Hell I consider getting Hidden Palace in Sonic 2 a miracle.

They could us the PC version music but I dunno... I think they really don't give a fuck about releasing the game.
 

WPS

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Dec 27, 2014
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I love the "unlike Sonic I don't chuckle" line from Kuckle's Adventure theme, because literally the first time the world saw Knuckles in a video game, he's chuckling.

And basically every scene after that where you meet Knuckles... he's chuckling.

Meanwhile, the one Sonic game in which he was going to chuckle, they cut it, presumably because the sprite was really disturbing.

3&K is definitely the best game of the classic series. I'd love to see a Taxman port of it, once they get the legal issues in order. Playing through Sky Sanctuary in wide-screen with the annoying sound bug gone would be heaven.
 

Diablohead

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I always preferred 3's sprites. They looked more... animated? I felt 1+2's look stiffer.

Also, what was up with the UK's cover art for Sonic 3? Normally we get amazing box art for games, but this one was just... what art direction for Sonic is this?



Also, Sonic can't count confirmed.

the UK has two different covers, the original sonic 3 release had the jungle artwork, then when they started giving games that blue trim along the left side they revised it to use the carnival artwork.
 

Azure J

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Jun 12, 2008
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Sonic 3 sprites & general sprite work >>>>> everything else that's 2D in the franchise.

Meanwhile, the one Sonic game in which he was going to chuckle, they cut it, presumably because the sprite was really disturbing.

3&K is definitely the best game of the classic series. I'd love to see a Taxman port of it, once they get the legal issues in order. Playing through Sky Sanctuary in wide-screen with the annoying sound bug gone would be heaven.

I just want a Taxman Collection on all digital download services. 1, 2, 3&K, CD with the proper Taxman attention would be too rad. Throw in an oddball like Chaotix just to make it as definitive as possible if necessary.
 

Darkstorne

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the UK has two different covers, the original sonic 3 release had the jungle artwork, then when they started giving games that blue trim along the left side they revised it to use the carnival artwork.

Ooo, interesting. Thanks! I still don't understand why Sonic is counting "4" though =P
 

Ferr986

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Oct 6, 2012
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Just an aside, are the Taxman games considered enhanced ports or remakes? I was under the impression they rebuilt the games from scratch

The engine is new yeah, it uses original assets and sprites. It's like a half remake? Dunno really how to call them
 

Piccoro

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You're right about Sonic 1 & 2 music, but there's got to be something going on with Sonic 3 music that is not just paying rights. What is it? I dunno :/ There was a lot of external composers with Sonic 3 music, not just MJ, but all of his staff, so rights about that music may be more complicated that what we think.

Mmm....maybe some of MJ's lawyers are not happy that he wasn't credited for the game, despite the fact he willing said "Nah, I don't like this. But you can still use this for the game."

That is the only reason I could picture being legal issues over Sonic 3, otherwise its just Sega being stupid with managing contracts, rights and other ownership stuff.

Hmm, it was strange back in 1997 when the first Windows port of Sonic 3 came out. I remember that they removed the Ice Cap music back then.
I wonder if they were already having licencing issues in '97?...
 

Tizoc

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To this bloody fucking day, ever since I saw the cover as a child, I ask and will continue to ask


WHAT IS THAT RED LEAF (by Sonic's feet)?!?! WHAT IS IT
WHY IS IT THERE
WHAT IS ITS PURPOSE?! WHY IS IT RED?!?!!?!
 

Ferr986

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Oct 6, 2012
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Hmm, it was strange back in 1997 when the first Windows port of Sonic 3 came out. I remember that they removed the Ice Cap music back then.
I wonder if they were already having licencing issues in '97?...

Carnival Night and Launch Base were also removed.

Usually, when it's an edited version of the game they have problems (PC version, this remaster, hell even putting the music on Generations, Sonic 3 music is not the original version) while roms sometimes are fine (Steam, XBLA, Collections...)

The one that ignores this rule is Sonic Jam, that's more of a remaster yet it had the original music.

Conclusion, I dunno wtf is going on with Sonic 3 music lol
 
Aug 29, 2009
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Not GAF, lol
None of the midi music in Generations are the originals. The Sonic, Sonic 2, and Sonic Advance music isn't a direct rip either.

I think that was mostly a technical thing. They decided to reprocess the music.

The Generations music also isn't any of the "problem" music.
 

Ferr986

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None of the midi music in Generations are the originals. The Sonic, Sonic 2, and Sonic Advance music isn't a direct rip either.

I think that was mostly a technical thing. They decided to reprocess the music.

The Generations music also isn't any of the "problem" music.

Ah my bad then.Dunno why I thought Sonic 1 and 2 were the original versions.
 

ElTopo

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Apr 9, 2014
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Sonic 3 came out around the same time as my birthday. I think it cost $70 at the time. Amazing platformer. Then I remember Xmas later that year I saw commercials for Sonic & Knuckles. I had to have that. Got it for Xmas. I still think Sonic 3 & Knuckles is the hands down best 2D Platformer experience. Donkey Kong Country 1, Mario World, Yoshi's Island were great. But they weren't the same kind of experience of locking Sonic 2 onto the Sonic & Knuckles cart and using Knuckles.
 

Ogni-XR21

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This thread reminded me of a black Sonic & Knuckles denim jacket I once bought on ebay. Was looking for some pictures of it online but could not find any. So I decided to take a picture for the whole internet to enjoy!


Apparently it was given out to some Sega staff, but I'm not really sure.
 

Ogodei

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Loved the bonus stage in this, both for the emeralds and the one where you could just rack up continues like no tomorrow.
 
Amazing game start to end. I hard to consider these as separate games these days, but I remember the wait for Sonic and Knuckles and it was intense.

I'd say Sonic 3 is the better of the two halves, though Sonic and Knuckles has some of the highest points in the game. Combined, it just makes for a much more satisfying experience. Plus, Doomsday is still one of the most epic levels in video game history. The zone music might be one of the greatest of all time in instill urgency and importance.
 

Psxphile

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Best platformer. Best selection of snazzy music you can hum to in a single (double) game. Best replay potential. Best selection of playable characters to choose from. Best selection of zones, acts and bosses.



All children must experience and enjoy this game, but they must NEVER
NEVER
EVER
know
of
THE BARREL

Hypothetical: What would Taxman do about the barrel? :p
 

Neo-Saiyan

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Jun 6, 2013
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S3 is the only Sonic game to not be bundled with the Genesis, which is why it "sold" much less than the other two. It still did over one million in the US alone which puts it in the upper echelon of Genesis game sales.

Maybe not in the US but it was bundled in the UK/EU



I remember buying that bundle just to play the game a week early even though I already owned a Megadrive, worth every penny!
 

RK128

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What are these remastered versions of Sonic 1 and 2 everyone keeps talking about?

We are talking about the updated iOS versions of Sonic 1 and 2.

They add extra characters (Knuckles in Sonic 2, Tails & Knuckles in Sonic 1, spindash in Sonic 1) and even restore a cut zone from Sonic 2 (Hidden Palace Zone).
 

Silvawuff

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Mar 9, 2012
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I'm impressed, OP! Very nicely written.

I love this set of games and they will always hold a special place in my heart.