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Sonic the Hedgehog 4 - Wii/PS3/360; downloadable episodic release - [Update: $15?]

Novella

Banned
May 13, 2009
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How is this a bait and switch?

The bait: We're making a Sonic game like those old ones.

The game: A Sonic game like those old ones.
 
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Momo said:
The sonic cycle isnt about being a bad game, it's about being a bait and switch. This game is more of a bait and switch than anything I've seen recently (F12010 apart, but thats just on another level).
I don't know, in that case Unleashed is the worst offender...
 

Zen

Banned
Jun 24, 2005
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All indicators show that it's not actually a bad game or anything. Progress is certainly being made on the front of 'good Sonic games'.

As an aside, I know that people feel like it shouldn't have been called Sonic 4 if it was going to be a blend of classic Sonic, and advance, but I think this game would be more inappropriately titled as Sonic Advance 4 than it is as Sonic 4. In terms of level design and execution it far and away above the type of games that Advance ended up being even if it shares a modicum of their DNA.
 

Anth0ny

Member
May 31, 2009
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Ixzion said:
It doesn't take the original team, though it would be nice.

It just takes just a HANDFUL people who actually give a damn about Sonic. Has anyone seen the video or played Sonic XG?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dK_dUAK10og&feature=related

This game is not perfect by any means, but there are good reasons for this. One being that the game is/was incomplete. Another being that they're not professionals.

Here's some of their level design concepts:
http://www.williamg.plus.com/SXGWEBSITE/pics.htm

THESE are what classic Sonic levels look like.

It is the most baffling thing to believe that EVERYONE ON THE DAMN PLANET can make a classic-feeling Sonic product better than Sega can. They can do it in classic 2d with sprites AND they can do it in 3d.

I hate coming to this topic but like a trainwreck, I can't seem to stop looking at the next lie RubyEclipse is going to tell about Sonic 4 or whatever else his insect overlords tell him to say so they can get money out of the next sucker.

In a way, I'm glad that Sega pulled this stunt. Now when Sonic 5 comes out, I'll know that it's the sequel to Sonic 4.
On a related note, I was watching this random vid of Sonic Megamix, and thinking "Why couldn't Sega do this?" The homing attack looks, dare I say, awesome. It's just the way Sega has implemented it in Sonic 4 that is so terribly wrong.
 

Momo

Banned
Aug 10, 2009
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Segata Sanshiro said:
No, the Sonic Cycle is about certain fans' unusual capacity for never learning their lesson. That's the joke.
Yeah but they keep on teasing us with things we want, then ..:lol

:(

Personally I learnt my lesson a long time ago, I still felt some hope with this one though.

Novella said:
How is this a bait and switch?

The bait: We're making a Sonic game like those old ones.

The game: A Sonic game like those old ones.
This game is nothing like the old ones ......

SwiftSketcher said:
I don't know, in that case Unleashed is the worst offender...
Got Werehog? :lol
 

Novella

Banned
May 13, 2009
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ILikeFeet said:
I like how you still have faith
What?

The list of things I know about this game could be written on a Flintstone vitamin with a blunt crayon.

I've seen one video for it, and yeah... it's Sonic. Looks good. Here's $15.
 

Momo

Banned
Aug 10, 2009
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Novella said:
What?

The list of things I know about this game could be written on a Flintstone vitamin with a blunt crayon.

I've seen one video for it, and yeah... it's Sonic. Looks good. Here's $15.
Did you ever play a Genesis Sonic title? :lol
 

Novella

Banned
May 13, 2009
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Momo said:
Did you ever play a Genesis Sonic title? :lol
EDIT: Actually, I didn't mention it in that post. I was going to.

Yeah. Sonic 2 is the last one I played.

EDIT2: Haha, I saw some guy before talking about jumping physics or something? Are you about to school me about jumping physics? Don't even waste a post.
 

Momo

Banned
Aug 10, 2009
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Novella said:
EDIT: Actually, I didn't mention it in that post. I was going to.

Yeah. Sonic 2 is the last one I played.
Have you seen the part where Sonic has zero momentum, the part where he uncurls when shooting off a ramp, the homing attack, the lack of multiple paths through the levels? (whats been shown) :lol

What the hell is Sonic to you? to me it's momentum based gameplay and inspired level design.
 

Novella

Banned
May 13, 2009
339
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What is Sonic to me? Literally almost nothing. He's a blue guy who goes fast in a video game.

It'll be an Arcade title, so there'll be a demo. I'll get the demo and if the Sonic Momentum isn't to my delectation, I just won't buy it.
 

OnPoint

Member
Jun 4, 2007
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BocoDragon said:
I would call Sonic 4 an example of a new type of Sonic Cycle entirely - The Sonic Mobius Strip.



It just never fucking ends.
Wait.

Wait.

Sonic's world is named Mobius. I read that in his origin comic in Disney Adventures when I was a kid. Yeah, I'm weird for remembering that.

But that "infinite loop" symbol... it's called a Mobius strip.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Möbius_strip

Sonic 1... Mobius... Sonic Cycle... Mobius Strip...

They knew all along

/Green eyes
 
Nov 17, 2006
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Zen said:
All indicators show that it's not actually a bad game or anything. Progress is certainly being made on the front of 'good Sonic games'.

As an aside, I know that people feel like it shouldn't have been called Sonic 4 if it was going to be a blend of classic Sonic, and advance, but I think this game would be more inappropriately titled as Sonic Advance 4 than it is as Sonic 4. In terms of level design and execution it far and away above the type of games that Advance ended up being even if it shares a modicum of their DNA.
Dimps have been making good games with Sonic in them all along. This isn't progress but it might seem that way to the people who never play anything handheld.

The problem for some folks is that Dimps's games don't play the same way as the classic Sonic games, from physics to level design to pacing and more. So, for those wanting classic Sonic, it doesn't really matter that Dimps is making something good, because it's off-point.

Sonic 4 is adding to the pain by using a title and giving early statements that led the fans of the classic Sonic (and not so much the Dimps Sonic) to think this was going to be a classic Sonic game.

However, Novella is demonstrating nicely why Dimps' Sonic games continue to sell millions - the majority of Sonic players never dissected the game the way the hardcore guys did, and to them, Sonic is a blue mans who runs fast and grabs gold rings and hits a signpost at the end of the level and every few levels fights a fat guy in a machine. As long as Dimps hits those beats *and* makes a good game, it doesn't matter if it's actually totally different from the old ones to those folks.
 

Sir_Crocodile

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Mar 31, 2009
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RubyEclipse said:
I actually fought really hard to keep the storyline simple. No princesses, no brand new characters, no voice acting or text bubbles - Sonic faces off against Robotnik to save his friends, and that's it. Less is more in that regard.

Honestly, this is one case where I think the story is right where it should be.
That was the point.

Since sonic shouldn't have much of a story I was commenting that what was apparently being said is that nothing has been done on episode two at all.

Is that correct? You haven't started yet so all the physics problems with episode one can easily be fixed and level design built around the changes to such in two.
 

Catalix

And on the sixth day the LORD David Bowie created man and woman in His image. And he saw that it was good. On the seventh day the LORD created videogames so that He might take the bloody day off for once.
May 3, 2008
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Anth0ny said:
On a related note, I was watching this random vid of Sonic Megamix, and thinking "Why couldn't Sega do this?" The homing attack looks, dare I say, awesome. It's just the way Sega has implemented it in Sonic 4 that is so terribly wrong.
Bad example. From what I'm seeing there, it still cheapens gameplay.

Segata Sanshiro said:
However, Novella is demonstrating nicely why Dimps' Sonic games continue to sell millions - the majority of Sonic players never dissected the game the way the hardcore guys did, and to them, Sonic is a blue mans who runs fast and grabs gold rings and hits a signpost at the end of the level and every few levels fights a fat guy in a machine. As long as Dimps hits those beats *and* makes a good game, it doesn't matter if it's actually totally different from the old ones to those folks.
Of course that's true. The general public are a non-discerning bunch. The surface-level aesthetics of this game (which Sega mostly got right) will be more than enough to satisfy their tastes.
 

RobbieNick

Junior Member
Jun 8, 2007
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Segata Sanshiro said:
Dimps have been making good games with Sonic in them all along. This isn't progress but it might seem that way to the people who never play anything handheld.

The problem for some folks is that Dimps's games don't play the same way as the classic Sonic games, from physics to level design to pacing and more. So, for those wanting classic Sonic, it doesn't really matter that Dimps is making something good, because it's off-point.

Sonic 4 is adding to the pain by using a title and giving early statements that led the fans of the classic Sonic (and not so much the Dimps Sonic) to think this was going to be a classic Sonic game.

However, Novella is demonstrating nicely why Dimps' Sonic games continue to sell millions - the majority of Sonic players never dissected the game the way the hardcore guys did, and to them, Sonic is a blue mans who runs fast and grabs gold rings and hits a signpost at the end of the level and every few levels fights a fat guy in a machine. As long as Dimps hits those beats *and* makes a good game, it doesn't matter if it's actually totally different from the old ones to those folks.
Segata, your sanity is a welcome relief in this thread. I never dissected Sonic's physics myself. I happen to like both DIMPS and Classic Sonic. There's room for both.
 

Catalix

And on the sixth day the LORD David Bowie created man and woman in His image. And he saw that it was good. On the seventh day the LORD created videogames so that He might take the bloody day off for once.
May 3, 2008
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RobbieNick said:
Segata, your sanity is a welcome relief in this thread. I never dissected Sonic's physics myself. I happen to like both DIMPS and Classic Sonic. There's room for both.
Wish Sega realized this. If they actually made both types of games concurrently, it wouldn't be a problem.

But they don't. So the current state of the series is a justifiable bummer for Classic-style fans.
 

Azure Dream

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Oct 30, 2004
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I both envy and fear the job you have right now, Ruby. I'm surprised if you have as much input in the game's progression as you say you do, but with the other staff redoing your desk and such, it sounds like you've thrown all your chips in to help this Sonic game be as good as it can get, given the circumstances. I appreciate that, even if some aspects fans don't desire are set in stone, due to developer tastes or assumptions about what will be expected of them.

With that said, if this is truly going to be an episodic property... I know this discussion has been had before, maybe the $15 price point was even a bargaining chip used in landing the delay, but Sega needs to take a page from Capcom on this, and price it no greater than $9.99/800MSP, and that in itself is not the ideal. It's money left on the table for some fans, and that's hard to swallow, but it will make a difference in how the game is received, and if people will continue to purchase future episodes, or only the die-hards as usual.
 
Jan 7, 2009
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The price is the biggest potential nail in the coffin I think. People seeing this for the first time will think "15 dollars? For episode ONE?." With that title, it implies you're paying near premium to what is assumed to be a fraction of a larger game. It's going to stunt a lot of possible growth for their attempt at an episodic release with this. My fear when buying an episode of anything is, how much content until it is finished, since it's only a piece? I really hope they reconsider it...


Also, people griping about Sonic 4's title: there IS the text "episode 1" attached to it. Don't recall any subtitles in previous classics. From that alone you should have known it's approach would differ from the Genesis titles.... "They called it Sonic 4! Those bastards!" No, they called it Sonic 4 - EPISODE ONE. If we're as fickle as claiming a name change to Advance 4 would solve everything, then you should also note the added subtitle puts this apart from the classics...
 

RagnarokX

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Sep 16, 2006
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SwiftSketcher said:
The price is the biggest potential nail in the coffin I think. People seeing this for the first time will think "15 dollars? For episode ONE?." With that title, it implies you're paying near premium to what is assumed to be a fraction of a larger game. It's going to stunt a lot of possible growth for their attempt at an episodic release with this. My fear when buying an episode of anything is, how much content until it is finished, since it's only a piece? I really hope they reconsider it...


Also, people griping about Sonic 4's title: there IS the text "episode 1" attached to it. Don't recall any subtitles in previous classics. From that alone you should have known it's approach would differ from the Genesis titles.... "They called it Sonic 4! Those bastards!" No, they called it Sonic 4 - EPISODE ONE. If we're as fickle as claiming a name change to Advance 4 would solve everything, then you should also note the added subtitle puts this apart from the classics...
Uh... it's Sonic 4; as in supposed to be "a sequel to the classic games." Adding "Episode 1" doesn't change that. I mean:



Sonic 3 Part One official art.
 

Azure Dream

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Oct 30, 2004
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Not that this discredits your overall point, but Sonic 3's Part One/Part Two promotion was abandoned pretty early on (they didn't talk about a continuation until they started promoting Sonic & Knuckles), Sonic 3 was just billed as "Sonic 3" everywhere, and the box art that used that image cropped off the Part One text.
 

RagnarokX

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Sep 16, 2006
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Hitlersaurus Christ said:
Not in MY country it's not! :mad:
I don't live in Europe either, just pointing it out.
Kulock said:
Not that this discredits your overall point, but Sonic 3's Part One/Part Two promotion was abandoned pretty early on (they didn't talk about a continuation until they started promoting Sonic & Knuckles), Sonic 3 was just billed as "Sonic 3" everywhere, and the box art that used that image cropped off the Part One text.
I know, just saying that adding "Episode 1" or "Part One" doesn't mean anything other than it has multiple parts. Dropping "Part One" was a smart move, because I don't think consumers would have been happy if they all knew they were only getting half a game for full price.
 
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My point is that it's silly to rank a game as shitty or acceptable in name alone and isn't really fair. So to those clamoring this as an catastrophe under "Sonic 4", but not so if it was "Sonic HD" seems over dramatic and fickle. Shouldn't we judge the game on it's on merits for being a fun and challenging platformer, just like it's predecessors? Maybe when it comes to the physics and math it isn't on the dot correct, but if my eight year old self had fun with Sonic 2 and 3, and 4 could manage that as well despite it's differences, what's so wrong about that. Because when I was eight I know I didn't notice the physics, I knew I was playing Sonic and it was fun.
 

Sophia

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Feb 8, 2008
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Segata Sanshiro said:
However, Novella is demonstrating nicely why Dimps' Sonic games continue to sell millions - the majority of Sonic players never dissected the game the way the hardcore guys did, and to them, Sonic is a blue mans who runs fast and grabs gold rings and hits a signpost at the end of the level and every few levels fights a fat guy in a machine. As long as Dimps hits those beats *and* makes a good game, it doesn't matter if it's actually totally different from the old ones to those folks.
The majority of Sonic players probably don't care. I'm fairly certain the average person can't spot the differences between Sonic 3 and Sonic Rush outside of the rush mechanic and increased speed. Hell, I wouldn't even have noticed the difference.

And that Sonic MegaMix level looks horrible in design. It reminds me of various Super Mario World hacks, all harder then the original, but all without the spirit of the original game's level design.
 

RagnarokX

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SwiftSketcher said:
My point is that it's silly to rank a game as shitty or acceptable in name alone and isn't really fair. So to those clamoring this as an catastrophe under "Sonic 4", but not so if it was "Sonic HD" seems over dramatic. Shouldn't we judge the game on it's on merits for being a fun and challenging platformer or not?
It's a marketing fiasco. If you call a game "Sonic 4" you shouldn't be surprised when everyone starts comparing it to Sonic 1, 2, and 3. It's inevitable that a sequel gets compared to the games it is claimed to be grouped with.
 

IrishNinja

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May 12, 2009
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However, Novella is demonstrating nicely why Dimps' Sonic games continue to sell millions - the majority of Sonic players never dissected the game the way the hardcore guys did, and to them, Sonic is a blue mans who runs fast and grabs gold rings and hits a signpost at the end of the level and every few levels fights a fat guy in a machine. As long as Dimps hits those beats *and* makes a good game, it doesn't matter if it's actually totally different from the old ones to those folks.
segater - fair points, i dont know i'm an anomaly by saying im able to enjoy a bit've both, though...and its not nearly as removed as saying, say IGAvania vs belmont/tanky CV. i get the guys who didnt necessarily fancy the DC games, which upon replay dont hold up as well as i thought they wouldve. still dig 2 > 1, but that's neither here nor there.

i prefer old-school sonic with the platforming. i see a bit've that here, and long for a demo to see if i can make peace with the physics. anyway, it's totally subjective as to what's a dealbreaker (clearly advance stuff is for many) but i dig your point that if you know what you want from a sonic game, and what this one's offering, it's not fair to just outright shit on Dimps' efforts here.

Momo said:
Got Werehog? :lol
you know, it bears repeating: werehog wasnt the worst part of that game. again, if you enjoyed Sonic Adventure 1/2 at all, Unleashed had some stuff for you; the parts i thought were bulslhit/quit on completely were when you have to go hunting or do fetch-quests or some shit to "unlock" the next playable level, fuck that hubworld shit.
 

Sophia

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Feb 8, 2008
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IrishNinja said:
you know, it bears repeating: werehog wasnt the worst part of that game. again, if you enjoyed Sonic Adventure 1/2 at all, Unleashed had some stuff for you; the parts i thought were bulslhit/quit on completely were when you have to go hunting or do fetch-quests or some shit to "unlock" the next playable level, fuck that hubworld shit.
About damn time someone understands the real problem with Unleashed.
 

sonikokaruto

Banned
Dec 14, 2005
6,762
0
0
wtf how many pages is this shit?

i'm getting tired of seeing this on the 1st gaming page.

if you don't like it, don't freaking buy it :(
 
IrishNinja said:
you know, it bears repeating: werehog wasnt the worst part of that game. again, if you enjoyed Sonic Adventure 1/2 at all, Unleashed had some stuff for you; the parts i thought were bulslhit/quit on completely were when you have to go hunting or do fetch-quests or some shit to "unlock" the next playable level, fuck that hubworld shit.
This x1000

The wherehog levels were actually kind of entertaining once I got the hang of things. The only wherehog sections that can go eat a left nut is Eggman Land. Holy crap it's just masochistic.
 

ILikeFeet

Banned
Oct 12, 2009
4,994
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I found the werehog levels boring. They weren't bad, just boring. And there were too many of them which mad it worse
 

Sophia

Member
Feb 8, 2008
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I didn't mind the werehog levels either. They were by no means bad, and were kinda entertaining, if under-polished.

I do recall being able to make it as far as Chun-nan's hub world. (I think, it might have been after that...) Couldn't find the entrance to the next level for an hour, and when I did find it, I found I had to collect more medals. The only thing that stopped me from snapping the disc and tossing it across my room was the fact that it was a rental. :lol
 

Gravijah

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Dec 7, 2008
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sonikokaruto said:
wtf how many pages is this shit?

i'm getting tired of seeing this on the 1st gaming page.

if you don't like it, don't freaking buy it :(
if you don't like people not liking it, don't read their posts~!
 

ILikeFeet

Banned
Oct 12, 2009
4,994
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Marrshu said:
I didn't mind the werehog levels either. They were by no means bad, and were kinda entertaining, if under-polished.

I do recall being able to make it as far as Chun-nan's hub world. (I think, it might have been after that...) Couldn't find the entrance to the next level for an hour, and when I did find it, I found I had to collect more medals. The only thing that stopped me from snapping the disc and tossing it across my room was the fact that it was a rental. :lol
Wii version FTW :D
 
Jan 7, 2009
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sonikokaruto said:
wtf how many pages is this shit?

i'm getting tired of seeing this on the 1st gaming page.

if you don't like it, don't freaking buy it :(
The best part is the game hasn't even come out yet :lol
 

Heezzi

Banned
Jun 7, 2004
1,098
0
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Novella said:
How is this a bait and switch?

The bait: We're making a Sonic game like those old ones.

The game: A Sonic game like those old ones.
They are making a game like those old ones... One problem, the games they are making off the old ones are not old enough.
 

Catalix

And on the sixth day the LORD David Bowie created man and woman in His image. And he saw that it was good. On the seventh day the LORD created videogames so that He might take the bloody day off for once.
May 3, 2008
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ILikeFeet said:
This game will get destroyed by Colors
Destroyed by Colors in what way? Sales? Reviews? Fan reception?
 
Apr 3, 2009
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Gravijah said:
the only thing that matters: oldschool sonic fan perception
You know, I'm somewhat looking forward to Colors even though I haven't enjoyed a 3D Sonic game yet. That one seems to be the best they can do with the formula.