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Sonic the Hedgehog Community Thread |OT3 & Knuckles|

Sciz

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AFAIK this is the most recent org chart we've seen for Sega:

https://abload.de/img/sega-02-12-15-1tfspg.png[img][/s]


edit: Scratch that, this one's a bit newer:

[img]https://abload.de/img/sega_corporateqbs88.png
 
Jul 18, 2015
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lol, You don't have to break down the level design for me. I wasn't expecting you to do that, sorry. I've been playing since '99. I've beaten Sonic's story like 15 times at the very least and know most of the shortcuts and secrets.

The bridge thing at the beginning is pretty much what I'm talking about primarily when I talk about experimenting with the physics in classic Sonic and finding new things to do, but in 3D. And it's only one of two big ways to use your spin-dash physics to dink around in Emerald Coast for benefit (aside from mashing it as a pseudo-boost). Speed Highway, Ice Cap, Twinkle Park, Sky Deck, Final Egg, and Red Mountain also have a lot of play to them. There's even an easter egg for fighting the camera and exploring Final Egg. That's why Sonic Adventure 1 is generally preferred to the other 3D Sonic games before Generations by classic fans: due to it being the closest to classic Sonic gameplay even though far more limited in scope.

There are like four or more shortcuts in Chemical Plant Zone alone. You can even use the spin-dash to launch yourself out of the water instead of doing the moving-block platforming at the end of Act 2. Check out this skip in the beginning and near-end. These kinds of things are in most levels. Emerald Hill can be bounce skipped. You can even do micro-skips on the loops. Check out this bubble shield usage. All of these are harder (the bubble shield only marginally) to do than the skips in Emerald Coast. They were also less obvious. A lot of experimenting had to be done. I could really go on and on and show you more and more. But those are just shortcuts. You can apply these principles if you aren't speedrunning to just exploring a level and tinkering with things.

I understand your qualms with Sonic 1. I complain about them too. But you also had problems with 2 and 3 from a mere entertainment standpoint.

Another thing you can do instead of taking the springs after the whale in SA is spindash and run up the side of the rock formation the springs are on, but it's a bit finicky and provides no benefit to the player. But it's fun to do.

It's great that you found a Sonic game you like though. Many people seem to lament the automation, the incurred glitchy hell punishment that is trying to break automation, and the bottomless pit syndrome.
I know a lot of that stuff. Remember in my thread when I said I run on water in Chemical Plant Act 2?

My thing is, I feel like 3d does this better because it's usually fairly obvious in 2d to me. I think Ocarina of Time is a great example. In LTTP it's usually obvious where and how to use the sling shot. But I remember playing OoT and the way you have to inspect the environment to hook shot feels more interactive to me. Figuring out the most efficient way through a stage feels like a bigger puzzle to solve compared to 2d. 2d is pretty simple but 3d adds an element of not only verticality to consider but also space. Some shortcuts I wouldn't think about in the 3d games without using my imagination but in 2d games it comes more naturally for me. I found Ocarina of Time harder than LTTP for that reason.

I know Genny Sonic has all of that. But I think it's more fun in 3d because it feels like it's a part of the core level design more. That's not to say it's a core part of Genesis Sonic but it doesn't happen or become nearly as much a requirement as it is in the Adventure games, especially with Mission and Trial modes.

I just feel they have more to offer to me, despite their flaws.

As for your video, I'm at work on my phone. Can you write the time stamp for the parts you want me to see? iOS YouTube doesn't always go to marked linked time stamps.

I'm willing to give the Genesis games another shot after I replay the Adventure games. Any guides and suggestions to enjoy them more would be helpful. I guess I could upload me playing Sonic 2 from beginning to end to get critiques on how to enjoy them more.

And yes, I find the level variety in Advebture games to be excellent and rise above its issues. Adventure games aren't perfect but I find I can tolerate their flaws whereas I can't in Genesis era Sonic. You're right in that I probably hold the Genesis Sonic's to a higher standard but only because Sonic games were THE games of my childhood, whereas I didn't have a Dreamcast until after it died.
 

dlauv

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I know a lot of that stuff. Remember in my thread when I said I run on water in Chemical Plant Act 2?
You can run on water in Sonic 2? I had no idea that was possible. Are you talking about the 8-bit one?

I know Genny Sonic has all of that. But I think it's more fun in 3d because it feels like it's a part of the core level design more. That's not to say it's a core part of Genesis Sonic but it doesn't happen or become nearly as much a requirement as it is in the Adventure games, especially with Mission and Trial modes
I get that. I can sympathize with this.

As for your video, I'm at work on my phone. Can you write the time stamp for the parts you want me to see? iOS YouTube doesn't always go to marked linked time stamps.
All of the videos are time-stamped except for the first, second, third and last links. The first is more of a written level guide. The second is a short speed run of Chem Act 2 with Knuckles. The third is a short speed run of Emerald Hill Act 1. The last is a full, glitchless run of 2 which should be enjoyed in full. It's 27 minutes, but probably shorter than typing and linking a bunch.

Mirco-skips on loops is 32 second in. Not very impressive, but it needs practice to pull of consistently. Not indicative of the other links, which are far more splendorous.
Bubble shield is 2m, 16s.
 
Jul 18, 2015
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Watched the videos dlauv. I kept watching the S3&K speed run and it just reminded me how much I loved Sonic and Knuckles as a kid. Way more than Sonic 3. I was never a big fan of 3. I should finish S3&K and see if & Knuckles lives up to my memories of being amazing. Sandopolis act 2 legitimately scared me as a kid haha. For a long time I could never get past that stage. Fucking Flying Battery Zone was sooooo good. Goddamn I loved that game.

Those runs were really impressive. I'd like to show how I play Sonic when I'm serious. I think I like watching other people play Genesis Sonic than actually playing them.
 

Sciz

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HACK REVIEW:
Amy Rose in Sonic the Hedgehog, Amy Rose in Sonic the Hedgehog 2, Sonic 3 & Amy
By: E-122-Psi, et. al.


Sonic Mania has certainly triggered Sonic mania across the internet, and I'm no exception. In an effort to quench my thirst for classic gameplay that I haven't already played to death, I gave Sonic Advance another spin. And while that didn't quite cut it, which is a whole different subject I won't get into here, a second go around with Amy did serve to remind me just how very intriguing she is, conceptually. For the uninitiated, Amy's moveset in Sonic Advance is a loose derivative of her Sonic Adventure gameplay, all the way down to the fact that she can't spin attack or even roll.
As opposed to other Dimps games where the physics are so bad that you simply shouldn't roll, nyuk nyuk nyuk.
If this sounds completely insane, well, you're not wrong; Advance 1 loves few things more than placing enemies right in the player's path, and it would be another three years before Dimps thought of the boost to make rolling properly obsolete.



So there's a lot of faceplanting going on, including the one move that is a literal faceplant. But every so often, when the badniks aren't so thick and there's platforming to be done, it all starts to gel, because what Amy does better than anyone else is jump. Between her hammer flip and spring smash, she can catch more air from a flat surface than anyone else short of Tails, and she's a lot faster about it. Being so much better in one way and so much worse in another makes her the most different character in a 2D Sonic game this side of Charmy, and stands as one of the cleverest things Dimps ever did with the franchise.

What, then, if you could try her out in other, better designed games?

Thanks to the eternal industriousness of the Sonic community - and readily available, documented source code - that dream is a reality.

These being the classic games, the spritework uses Amy's handful of Sonic CD assets as a base and builds the rest of her sheet out from there, using her Advance sprites as an animation reference, along with what are likely edits of Sonic's sprites for some of the tougher poses. It's all very well done and manages to avoid coming off as Sonic in drag any more than her classic design usually does.



And unlike the lazier character swaps out there, this redraws every asset, including the title screen, special stage sprites, and ending, and gets extra points for maintaining the original colors of most of the plethora of objects in Sonic 1 that rely on Sonic's palette.

Oh, and the entire set is completely overhauled in Sonic 3 to match the art style, and it even includes 2P sprites. That, my friends, is dedication.




Enough gushing over how pretty it all is, though, when the more important question remains: How does it play?

Answer: Really damn well.

The first, and most personally surprising reason why that's the case is that rolling... isn't actually crucial to these games. The conventional wisdom on GAF whenever someone complains that the level design throws you into enemies all the time is to just roll constantly, but being literally unable to do that doesn't wind up being too big of a deal*, because the levels are smarter than that to begin with. There simply aren't that many ground level badniks throughout the games, and most of the ones that do exist are either placed such that you come up on them slowly, or they are themselves slow-moving or come to a stop on sight to give you a fair chance to react. I wouldn't make her anyone's first experience with the games, and Sonic 3 in particular expects you to be spindashing a bit more often than I'd previously realized, but she doesn't have it all that much worse overall. Once you get used to her attack timing, most of what you'll get hit by is stuff that would hit the other three characters as well. The lack of rolling also means she can't reach the sort of high velocity you expect, but she's usually still fast enough for any given speed check.

The second reason is that she retains almost her entire Advance moveset** (minus the faceplant, plus the Advance 2 "spindash" sans actual spinning), but buffed in some critical ways, which renders her by far and away the most agile character of the four (with, I will begrudgingly admit, the sole exception of Hyper Sonic).

Her normal jump reaches merely a normal height, but her hammer flip sends her soaring higher than even a Super Sonic jump, which opens up incredible movement possibilities straight out of the gate:

And it goes higher still in water:

(Yes, she can hammer down switches**.)

I can't overstate how entertaining this is. It's most of the fun of Super Sonic's manueverability without being completely broken in every other regard, without having to worry about special stages, and with the subtle benefit that pressing Down + A to initiate a special jump is quietly satisfying.

The other major game changer over Advance is that her aerials are useable after a hammer flip now and can be chained together. Given that her aerial attacks are still much better moves than her grounded swing anyway, Amy absolutely thrives on flinging herself into the air and raining down death from above.

High jumps, short hops, timing all your attacks; she's just plain fun, and genuinely freshens up all three games.



It gets even crazier when you throw super mode into the mix, as she gets all of Super Sonic's benefits and a height buff to the hammer flip, which opens up yet more jump possibilities. And Sonic 3 even has a unique hyper form flash attack coded.

Speaking of Sonic 3...

She can bash through Knuckles' walls. Typically Amy follows a mix of Sonic and Tails' scripting, but if she can reach a Knuckles path, she can take it, and the game will adjust smoothly. She can also get enough height to grab some of Tails' low hanging personal goodies, and as a Sonic replacement, can have Tails tagging along, so she winds up dabbling in a bit of everyone's unique content without wholly superseding any one of them, which is exactly what you want for additional Sonic 3 characters.

I have some minor quibbles, like how one of her super transformation sprites in Sonic 2 is glitched out-



-or how the code edits have left Sonic 2's 2P mode in a flaky state, or how the hitboxes of her attack sprites are larger than those of the rest of her sprites, so initiating an attack directly next to an enemy (e.g. trying to hammer an orbinaut from below) results in it immediately hitting you.


Overall, though? It's nearly professional grade work and comes off very much like the legit fourth character option she was in Advance, buffed up to a competitive shine that feels neither overpowered nor underpowered, and I'm going to be very sad when she's not in Mania.

VERDICT: Highly recommended.


*Death Egg Act 2's boss is a bitch.

**Except for Sonic 3, which lacks the short hop and switch hammering on account of being an older version of the hack which hasn't been updated with the extra polish of the other two games.
 

Psxphile

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That's a nice write-up. I really like those hacks, I usually play them in lieu of the original versions since Amy is such a challenging character to run through familiar courses with.

You didn't mention it so I wonder if you're aware: you can also hammer the springs like in Advance. If you thought she had a large jump height before...

EDIT: if you haven't already you should post this in the rom hack thread in Gaming.
 

Sami+

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Amy and Sonic are my two favorite characters despite both being badly characterized sometimes (Amy moreso), but I've come to terms with her not being popular at all lol.
 

Sciz

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You didn't mention it so I wonder if you're aware: you can also hammer the springs like in Advance. If you thought she had a large jump height before...

EDIT: if you haven't already you should post this in the rom hack thread in Gaming.
It's implied in the bit where I note that she's got almost her entire Advance moveset, but I didn't have a good place to mention it specifically, and highlighting the hammer flip took priority.

I started writing this before that thread went up, and chuckled a bit at the timing. SonicGAF comes first, though!

I'm interested in Amy Rose versions of classic games, I was not expecting this.
I had downloaded the Amy versions but never got around to playing them because...well, it's Amy. Maybe I should give them a try after all.
My work here is done.

Compared to how Tails and Knuckles are both slower than Sonic, it's refreshing to have an alternate character whose pace is actually about on par without being some broken, homing attack spamming thing.

I expect reports.

Posted a few more fangames on youtube, including this very VERY old demo by Stealth which started the whole Head Cannon engine stuff :)
A DOS prompt and Tripod website? That takes me back.
 

RK128

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Thank you Sciz for the heads up the Amy hacks :D! I think her in Advance 1 was a lot of fun but seeing how useful her Hammer Jump is in Sonic 1/2/3&K.....she looks like a blast to play as.

Going to be covering this for sure during the next wave of Sonic Retrospectives, so thank you for pointing this game/hack out to me :). Going to be fun playing a new take on some fun classics!
 

TrueBlue

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Jul 23, 2011
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Damn it, now I'll definitely be disappointed of Amy doesn't show in Mania, that write-up was great!

Amy and Sonic are my two favorite characters despite both being badly characterized sometimes (Amy moreso), but I've come to terms with her not being popular at all lol.
One of Boom's best aspects is Amy for me. There's just more to her, with her crush on Sonic being a facet of her character as opposed to a singular defining element.

Her design in Boom is pretty great too actually.
 

Sami+

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Damn it, now I'll definitely be disappointed of Amy doesn't show in Mania, that write-up was great!



One of Boom's best aspects is Amy for me. There's just more to her, with her crush on Sonic being a facet of her character as opposed to a singular defining element.

Her design in Boom is pretty great too actually.
I don't think she will which honestly kinda bums me out. :'( Sonic 2 added Tails as a playable character, Sonic 3 added Knuckles, it would have been awesome if Mania continued the tradition. Hopefully as DLC?

Edit -
My favorite characterization of hers is in both Adventude games, but particularly the first one. Haven't seen much of Boom.
 

Psxphile

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I guess we shouldn't expect an Amy Rose in Sonic CD or Knuckles Chaotix anytime soon.




EDIT: I remembered someone had made some sprites for SCD

 

TrueBlue

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I don't think she will which honestly kinda bums me out. :'( Sonic 2 added Tails as a playable character, Sonic 3 added Knuckles, it would have been awesome if Mania continued the tradition. Hopefully as DLC?

Edit -
My favorite characterization of hers is in both Adventude games, but particularly the first one. Haven't seen much of Boom.
I'm still holding out hope. That being said, the "shitty friends" shtick may postpone any attempts for now.

It would be so cool though! Even if I feel Classic Amy veers a little too close to "Sonic in drag" - her Modern/Boom designs are great and avoid this - it's still a design I like and would like to see used. The last Genesis era debutant being made playable.

I'd also want to see a potential Amy vs Metal Sonic bossfight, for shits and giggles.

Her Adventure incarnation is pretty good from what I remember. Adventure 2 not so much, her talk with Shadow nonwithstanding.
 

Sciz

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I've been holding out on the Steam Workshop stuff until I found something great. I'll defiantly give the Amy Hacks a go after the recommendation.
Only one of them is on Steam, for the record, and it wasn't uploaded by the author. Better to just get them from the source at Retro.



As an addendum, there's a variant of the Sonic 2 hack named Sonic the Hedgehog 2: Pink Edition:

As the screens indicate, the two main differences are that Amy has her Adventure design, and Cream tags in for Tails.

Cream is no mere sprite swap, but instead plays exactly like she does in Advance 2, including the ability to sic Cheese on anything that moves using what I assume is the super flicky targeting routine.

When Cream is on her own, Cheese gets to have his own palette, but in Amy and Cream mode technical restrictions come into play, and are then cleverly handled a la Advance 3:

And Amy can still order Cheese around just like Cream does. It's a great little touch.

2P mode also works without crashing in this version, if you really wanted to give that a spin.
 

Nocturnowl

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Jan 1, 2011
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Cream? now that one really has my attention.
throwing Cheese at the Death Egg Robot, oh gosh.

On that note I always figured it a bit much that Sonic 2 asked you to do Mecha Sonic and DE Robot back to back with no rings at all, actually I still say there should be a checkpoint between the two but just earlier having done the final boss in ring keeper mode from Sonic 2's 3DS version I see that you could so easily abuse invincibility frames on the robot to make it a less climactic foe than the previous few bosses.
 

Gagaman

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Posted a few more fangames on youtube, including this very VERY old demo by Stealth which started the whole Head Cannon engine stuff :)

https://www.youtube.com/user/gamerbytes/videos
I'm so glad you're doing this man, I played a good chunk of these back then, and just recorded a full let's play of my game from 2001 which I'm hoping to get out this week called Sonic Chudoku (I don't now what I was thinking with the title other than WEEABOO WEEABOO). I didn't see it in the video but there is a sprite of me somewhere in that first level of the Time Attacked demo.
 

TrueBlue

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Jul 23, 2011
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Amy in SA was fine.



Later on she became more and more mutant, with her shoes and gloves taking up 50% of her body:



And her dead eyes



Or her arms being terrifyingly long:

Eh. Amy probably does come across better through the 2D art, but I still think she looks fine on the whole.

Her Boom render would be near perfect if it wasn't for that silly droopy eyelid look.
 

Sciz

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Realized I forgot to mention one last little thing:

Enter 03, 03, 03, 0B, 10, 10, 10, 04 on the level select screen. That is, not coincidentally, the same code used to access Proto Palace Zone in the remaster, and features most of the same little tweaks. It's still the old prototype layout as opposed to anything resembling a real level, so don't get too excited. Neat, though.

Alright, that's enough talking about pink hedgehogs. Back to waiting for more Mania info.



(by MotorRoach over on Retro)
 

Tizoc

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Is there a dev blog or the like to read up on how taxman went about making the ios ports of sonic 1 and 2?
 

Tizoc

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Scrap Brain Zone is ass.
I mean I get the idea behind its hazards, and this is def. THE stage where you gotta know when to rush and when not to.
The worst offender in this stage are the flames, it's hard to see the vent that shoot them, even though memorizing the stage allows one to dodge them with ease.

I dunno I feel like with a few tweaks this stage wouldn't be as much of a headache as I played it.

All in all though, Sonic 1 is a game about memorization; once you've figured out the proper paths and actions to do in certain areas it becomes much less tedious to beat.
For me though it...has a rather interesting charm to it :x
 

Gagaman

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Oh man Rlan digging up old fan games has really got me digging through my old unreleased stuff, and this point 'n click adventure I was working on needs to be seen, so gonna rip a bunch of clips and upload them when I can. Full of very SFGHQ specific in-jokes, including at least two long gags based on that Sonic Boom game. I really wish I finished it but I got too over-ambitious with the animated cut scenes haha.
 

TrueBlue

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holy shit those dislikes lol

I do think it's about time the sonic community sheds its negative image a little bit. it's annoying as fuck to hear about how "sonic was never good" or "lol sanic fans that love big the cat hentai amirite such manbabby original character do not steal wow"

not sure if it's possible, though
It'll be easier if Mania and 2017 turn out to be good.

Until then, we may as well be punching a brick wall.
 

TreIII

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It'll be easier if Mania and 2017 turn out to be good.

Until then, we may as well be punching a brick wall.
Well, yeah. But that's the overall notion that I agreed with back in the thread on the Gaming side: the ball's really in Sega's court to change the perception of their all star brand and improve his image. Easiest way of doing that would be to deliver top notch games, and everything else can perhaps flow from there.
 

Seven Force

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I will say that the last two weeks have harbored some of the most civil discussion of the series I've ever seen on this site (as far as gaming side is concerned)

That's gotta be worth something, I guess
 

RK128

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I will say that the last two weeks have harbored some of the most civil discussion of the series I've ever seen on this site (as far as gaming side is concerned)

That's gotta be worth something, I guess
If the 'Sonic 1 Has Issues' thread told me anything, is that there is still people outside of SonicGaf still interested in respectfully want to talk about the Sonic series. I also re-connected with the Sonic Stadium recently too, so I guess I'm okay regarding Sonic-based discussions.

All I want is if people say Sonic sucks, explain why you feel that way. if they do, then I will sit down and listen, then talk back with my points and stuff. But just say it sucks and walk out? I will walk out too frustrated with that person.
 

Village

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Jan 21, 2013
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It'll be easier if Mania and 2017 turn out to be good.

Until then, we may as well be punching a brick wall.
Nope.

Its gonna happen, sonic is a meme. When its 2d people gonna try and shit on it, when its 3d people gonna try and shit on it.

I hope that join the resistance thing is " recruit playable characters" So at least when folks get salty I'll be playing as a cool guy. Also hopefully that game is good, i'm suspicious of that 2017 thing.

But yeah they are going to do it anyway, if sega wants to stop the meme... at least a little, they are going to need dedicate years to quality and expanding their brand, this is what is sadly.


edit:New lawsuit against archie apperently
 

Anth0ny

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gerstmann already shit on mania, claiming the fans were losing their shit the exact same way over sonic 4 only for it to be terrible in the end, and that this will be no different.

fucking cringe


I don't know about yall but I'm pretty sure we were shitting on the god awful art/physics/modern sonic as soon as sonic 4 was unveiled. another annoying thing about the press is their assumption that the sonic cycle is totally real and every sonic fan is a bumbling idiot that just loves everything sega puts out. it's insane.
 

Guess Who

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gerstmann already shit on mania, claiming the fans were losing their shit the exact same way over sonic 4 only for it to be terrible in the end, and that this will be no different.

fucking cringe


I don't know about yall but I'm pretty sure we were shitting on the god awful art/physics/modern sonic as soon as sonic 4 was unveiled. another annoying thing about the press is their assumption that the sonic cycle is totally real and every sonic fan is a bumbling idiot that just loves everything sega puts out. it's insane.
Jeff thinks Sonic 3 was where the series went to shit so he's not exactly the target demo here anyway.