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Sonic the Hedgehog is 18 years old today. Lets look back, then forward. (no, 56k, no)

MechaX

Member
Yoshi said:
So, uhm, play Sonic Rush, Sonic Rush Adventure, Sonic Unleashed, Sonic Adventure 2 or any other decent Sonic game? They all don't require you to die 12 times, you don't even have to die once, as the traps are visible beforehand. Not neccessarily for a long time, but for a long enough time to react. I'm quite sure, that I didn't die more than three times in any level of Sonic Rush Adventure for example - and when I died it was my mistake.

Uh.. As much as I liked Sonic Rush, I would not say, in any sense of the word, that Rush's traps were anywhere close to being visible before hand. And this rings especially true for the last level when you had to control some rockets with shit controls at high speeds to get past a massive bottomless pit (and guide the rocket to a corridor that was barely double Sonic's height).

Rush Adventure and Adventure 2 were decent in this regard, however.
 

HUELEN10

Member
Dra-Q said:
Let's be honest, the game played itself.
No, no it didn't.
I fucking love Sonic Adventure 1 on DC, but Unleashed plays like a techdemo.
How so?
. And don't get me startin about the werehog stages and the shitty combat-theme.
What exactly was bad about the gameplay aside from not being "core sonic gameplay"?
You had no freedom like in the Adventure games and they overused the QTEs.
You have quite a bit of freedom in Unleashed, just slow the fuck down! As for QTEs, didn't only the final boss have them? Weren't the rest just button gimmicks no different that the adventure or rivals series?
Some might like it, but I had no fun at all playing this mess.
Your loss.
 

Teknoman

Member
Dra-Q said:
Let's be honest, the game played itself. I fucking love Sonic Adventure 1 on DC, but Unleashed plays like a techdemo. And don't get me startin about the werehog stages and the shitty combat-theme.

You had no freedom like in the Adventure games and they overused the QTEs. Some might like it, but I had no fun at all playing this mess.

Well yeah, everyone thinks the QTE's werent needed, but its not really a good thing to have too much freedom or open space in a Sonic game. And the only time any Sonic 3d game is on autopilot these days are the loops. Sure the rails are usually one direction, but you still have to change rails.

Really the only auto pilot parts of Unleashed are the first few seconds of some rail stretches, a few loops (most are controlled by your current speed), and qte senarios.
 

Teknoman

Member
I just never understood the majority auto-pilot argument (that was one of the first things early on in the official SU topic).

Dragon Road act 1

Nothing here is autopilot except that one running down the dragon segment.

There were however sections of the game that almost everyone had problems or dislikes about...but to call it shit is a bit much.

When something is a shit game, it has NO redeeming values in any way, crazy technical issues, horrible controls, horrible graphics, and much more.
 

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
I don't get the criticism that Sonic Unleashed plays itself. On one hand, you are claiming that the games are soooo unfair and you can't dodge the traps, on the other hand Sonic Unleashed is totally simple and plays itself. I've played Sonic Unleashed to completion and it' really tough and definitely doesn't play itself. Try getting an S-Rank even on the most basic level - Apotos Act 2 - and you will see that the game is 100% interactive and tests your skills in a great way.
 

Rorschach

Member
12122.png


If you would have told me 10 years ago that this was a real screen of a Sonic game, I would have laughed my ass off and checked the calendar to make sure it wasn't April 1st.
 

DeVeAn

Member
I think the Sonic hate stems from more than a few average games. Where? I haven't a clue. I thought Unleashed was great. I wasn't thrilled with the Werehog but, I have played far worse.

I hear people complain Sonic's not fast anymore, So RUSH and Unleashed fix'd that. Now its he is too fast you can't see ahead. What is the real reason for people hating on Sonic so much?
 

Teknoman

Member
They hate on Sonic because most of the Sonic console games between Adventure 2 and Unleashed were glitchy, had loading problems, too many forced playable characters, and just really werent fun.

Unleashed was on the right track, just the werehog / world hubs had to appear and left a blemish on the game.

Sonic and the Secret Rings was ok. Black Knight however forced Sonic right back down the ladder.

EDIT: Unleashed, you can see ahead just fine. Most complaints stem from his walking to full tilt acceleration. His max running speed unaided by boost is just fine for most non-loop/chase/side running situations, but he accelerates much to fast when trying to do normal platforming.
 

ShogunX

Member
Really wish Sega would take a mega man 9 old school approach and release a brand new 2-d sonic on XBLA/Other services. Cut all the stupid and needless bullshit that's been built up and go back to the games roots with the original and classic characters. Throw in a few new modes and a drop in/out co-op and I would be there day one.
 

hesis

Neo Member
Alphahawk said:
You know I'm actually tempted to pick up Unleashed, the demo seemed pretty fun...

I was thinking about it as well, but I gave it a rent and the Werehog stages absolutely killed an otherwise fantastic experience.
 

Danthrax

Batteries the CRISIS!
Teknoman said:
Or even here Skyscraper Scamper act 1 (wait for HD to kick in if the quality is too low atm). Everything you see is not auto piloted except for a few seconds on one of the last rails, and the spring between buildings part early on.

wow, are the controls really as tight as they look in that video? it appears Sonic goes wherever the player wants him to. (this shouldn't be so astonishing, but considering how sloppy the controls have been in all the other 3D Sonic games, it is astonishing.)
 
Shogun PaiN said:
Really wish Sega would take a mega man 9 old school approach and release a brand new 2-d sonic on XBLA/Other services. Cut all the stupid and needless bullshit that's been built up and go back to the games roots with the original and classic characters. Throw in a few new modes and a drop in/out co-op and I would be there day one.

I agree. I heard that Capcom gathered some of the old team when they developed Mega Man 9, does anybody think that Sega could do the same and make a Sonic 4? Utilizing the engine from Sonic 1-3 on the Mega Drive. Would be amazing if they did...
 
ResidentDante said:
Wow, I got try this out one day :D

You can also play as Shadow or Mighty, and they have their own moves (Mighty works just like Sonic from Sonic 3 - he can use the shield powers, and Shadow works sort of like a bare bones Sonic who can double jump) and they can access alternate routes, ala Tails/Knuckles in Sonic 3 & Knuckles.

EDIT: And Tails and Knuckles are gonna be playable in the next version.
 

Sciz

Member
The topics I miss when I go off on vacation for a couple weeks.

ResidentDante said:
I agree. I heard that Capcom gathered some of the old team when they developed Mega Man 9, does anybody think that Sega could do the same and make a Sonic 4? Utilizing the engine from Sonic 1-3 on the Mega Drive. Would be amazing if they did...
Keiji Inafune, the man behind the series, led the project. Inti Creates, the developer, contains a number of staff members from the Mega Man X days if not earlier. They didn't use the original engine, though they did reverse engineer it as a basis. As for a theoretical Sonic 4, I highly doubt that they'll ever get Yasuhara, Naka, or Oshima on the series again, much less all together. The fans know the engine inside out, at least (see above).

As ever, my primary interest in the series these days is the music, which still ranges from pretty good to soundtrack of the year quality, so that's at least one area you can count on quality in even eighteen years on.
 

Teknoman

Member
TheSonicRetard said:
Yes, it does. That was a sloppy run, too. The guy took his time.

Here's a faster run of a different zone

Hey! ; ; I got an S rank, what more do you want?

And yeah the controls are pretty tight...daytime normal Sonic wise anyway. Make any deadly mistakes and it's usually your fault. Even the wall running and looped sections depend on how faster you are going. Not automated, and can fall off the wall if you arent fast enough.

EDIT: Zeronineteen? He's actually on my friend list from awhile back :lol
 
KingJ2002 said:
Dump the huge overworlds: They're not needed... it would be easier if the game story mode was more linear... players... especially children can get lost in huge overworlds especially if there's no sense of progress. Which these overworlds tend to do. If you have to have an overworld... at least have it on a path... such as having a "Green Hill Zone Overworld" beat all the levels in there... then move directly into the "Ice Cap Zone" overworld.

I don't really see a problem with the overworlds. I guess a lot of people played Sonic games differently, but a big part of my enjoyment of Sonic 3 and Knuckles was sheer exploration.

The town sections in Sonic Unleashed... each town is ridiculously tiny (most of them, you can run from one end to the other in under 30 seconds) and there are a grand total of three times in the entire game where talking to somebody in them is mandatory. I'm okay with that.

gutter_trash said:
-it becomes too much of a map memorization racer, where you memorize the turns, enemy location, traps and jumps..

I don't know if there's really anything wrong with that. A lot of games require a degree of memorization to clear properly - the problem is when a game punishes you too harshly for not knowing the correct way to do something.

I'd argue that Sonic Unleashed holds your hand more than probably any other Sonic game... almost ever. Sure, there are "fuck up once and you die" moments later in the game, but that's later in the game. It very clearly teaches you a way to play it and expects you to know what it's going to throw at you. The only time where it throws you into a situation totally unprepared is Eggmanland, which is pretty much hell on earth and says "Remember everything we taught you? None of that is going to help you - if anything, it's the opposite."
 

Teknoman

Member
Kinda wish Eggman land was more like a Scrap Brain throw back. The music is cool for the area, but didnt think he'd have some psycho carnival/factory style zone.

I think most people were complaining about finding the zones within the hub area.
 
Rorschach said:
12122.png


If you would have told me 10 years ago that this was a real screen of a Sonic game, I would have laughed my ass off and checked the calendar to make sure it wasn't April 1st.

The first trailer was released on April 1st, I think it was. It really looked like a joke back then, especially because the guns were more realistic and way too big. :lol


I liked the Wii version of Unleashed better than the 360 version, but I know that's an unpopular opinion. 360 version clearly got the better production values.
 

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
I really like Sonic 3 & Knuckles and Sonic CD (not as much as Sonic 2, but still), but better than Yoshis Island? No, just no.
Sonic sure had his low points, Sonic 3D Blast, Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic 2006, Sonic Bioware RPG and Sonic and the Black Knight are the main offenders here, but I can't understand, why Sonic is getting all the flak because there are quite a few fun, but not perfect games in the series which are well worth playing. I don't get the hate because everyone has the option to play the games or not to and as Sonic doesn't hide its gameplay, everyone should know beforehand, what he's buying. I hope, Sega uses the great concept of Sonic Unleashed, drops overworld and Werehog and releases a new game on this concept.
 

Teknoman

Member
Sonic gets overblown hate for the same reason FF game main characters from VII up to XII get called feminine, and motion controls get called waggle. Its just the thing to do.
 
KingJ2002 said:
:lol

...

to stay on topic... sonic unleashed was only a bad game due to the werehog sections. If sega wants to get back to creating AAA sonic titles they would do the following:

- Keep the sonic sections like sonic unleashed: it was pretty much known that the sonic portions of the games were great. the 2.5D gameplay is what people wanted. Sega's concern was that the levels would be too long to make as they can stretch for miles. In that case... they should consider using a technology close to Id megatexture tech... so no two texture's are the same.. with that... they can have some hanna barbera style repeat areas to make the game seem longer.

- Keep playable friends to a minimum: Mario get's this right... so should Sonic... people want to play as sonic... not as ted the toad, to licky the lizard. If you insist on friends being there... they should only be there in the capacity of assist characters only.

- Mini Games should be included: One of the reasons why the early sonic games were so fun is that there was mini games within levels to break up the monotony of running though stages. Mini games within levels will keep the stage unique and add lots of replay value... you do it with Virtua Tennis... sonic could use some mini games as well... but keep in mind that they should be fun... not boring.

- Dump the huge overworlds: They're not needed... it would be easier if the game story mode was more linear... players... especially children can get lost in huge overworlds especially if there's no sense of progress. Which these overworlds tend to do. If you have to have an overworld... at least have it on a path... such as having a "Green Hill Zone Overworld" beat all the levels in there... then move directly into the "Ice Cap Zone" overworld.

- Online Components: 2-Player co-op through levels, 4 Player mini-games, Racing challenges... you can go beyond the storyline with sonic games.

- No More human love interests.. or better yet... keep the human presense to a minimum: Sonic 06 sucked because of that... and Sonic Unleashed was just weird... stop destroying the fantasy of Sonic by pushing him into reality.

I think the only good thing sega has done with sonic unleashed is the engine.

Take that engine, add special stages, add a good story, remove everything related to adventure, don't make him speak, add platforming elements like before, add good art with no real worlds and make Sonic the only playable caracter. Bring back Robot Sonic, stop calling Robotnik eggman and let me play the game from zones to zones like before. Non-stop action.

In other words, bring back the western version of Sonic.

edit: 2.5d or nothing.
edit 2: For the love of god, please don't add any werewolf gimmick never again.
 
The Power Of Snap said:
In other words, bring back the western version of Sonic.
Funny you should say that because pretty much everything between Sonic Adventure and Sonic 06 is "Western Sonic."

The series did not take a nosedive the second Sonic called Robotnik "Eggman" goddamn
 
The european and american version of Sonic were always about Mobius but the japenese story was always involving the earth and humans. You see it in the manuals and with the tv shows.

Sonic 3d blast was the nosedive.
 

Catalix

And on the sixth day the LORD David Bowie created man and woman in His image. And he saw that it was good. On the seventh day the LORD created videogames so that He might take the bloody day off for once.
The daytime stages in Unleashed feel more like hearty versions of the 16-bit Special Stages, and less like fully fleshed out adventure-platforming experiences.

Those stages are great fun on their own, but lack substance in a few key departments.

I'm just looking for a little more in terms of a "core" Sonic gameplay package. Unleashed whets my appetite, but doesn't quite hit the spot.
 
I don't know why Sega insists that Sonic has to be a 3D franchise.
Just give people what they want, you know?
Make the game have beautiful graphics with 2D gameplay. Give us another Green Hill Zone. It's so easy! I bet with the franchise they could score really well.
 

Catalix

And on the sixth day the LORD David Bowie created man and woman in His image. And he saw that it was good. On the seventh day the LORD created videogames so that He might take the bloody day off for once.
Sohter.Nura said:
I don't know why Sega insists that Sonic has to be a 3D franchise.
Just give people what they want, you know?
Make the game have beautiful graphics with 2D gameplay. Give us another Green Hill Zone. It's so easy! I bet with the franchise they could score really well.
It's not about 2D or 3D, just competent design.

I take that back. I'll concede that Unleashed was competent. However, Sonic needs to be exceptional.
 
Sohter.Nura said:
I don't know why Sega insists that Sonic has to be a 3D franchise.
Just give people what they want, you know?
Make the game have beautiful graphics with 2D gameplay. Give us another Green Hill Zone. It's so easy! I bet with the franchise they could score really well.

Because pandering to the base is stupid and even if all Sonic Team made was 2.5D games fans would still find stuff to bitch about(plus what Catalix said)?

People bitch when devs don't follow the fans and fail saying "if they'd listen to us they wouldn't suck", but when devs do listen to fans and suck anyway it's "they're spineless and should just ignore their idiotic fanbase". Great game design is all that should matter.

By the way what did you guys thing of the optional levels that were entirely in 2.5D?

For example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QK3i-BOfSpk&feature=PlayList&p=FB3EFEE3112C08DD&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=14
 
I dunno :p Yeah, maybe people will bitch, but I enjoyed the Sonic Advance games, and to a less extent the DS games (which are a tad too just moving forward).
I would much enjoy a Wii or XBOX360 game with some beautiful graphics and gameplay similar to the GBA titles.
I think the problem with the Sonic in franchise is that in 2D it is a platformer title, while in 3D it has an adventure feeling to it. It changes the genre =o
 
Sega insists Sonic has to be in 3D because, for Sega, Sonic was "that game" for them. It was their Mario, and in a lot of ways, they still treat him that way.

This isn't like Castlevania, which Konami apparently didn't really care about all too much (and even then, there have been four or five attempts to bring Castlevania to 3D with varying degrees of success).

The problem is that, yes, Sonic is one of those franchises that worked a very specific way in 2D and translating that same style of game to directly 3D is very difficult. It's not like Mario where the base requirement is "jump on stuff and maybe throw some fireballs". Sonic has all kinds of physics you have to consider, never mind how you handle moving fast in 2D vs. 3D and a bunch of other things.

That's kind of why I don't get it when people are incensed that a 3D Sonic game fails to replicate the gameplay of the 2D Sonics. It probably wouldn't work, at least not the way you would hope it would. There are fan-made projects out there right now that try it and while it "works", it never feels quite right. The most polished example of classic Sonic "working" in 3D is simply just a normal 3D platformer with no Sonic physics to speak of and has been in development for 11 years.

If Sonic is going to be in 3D, he cannot just be the same Sonic he was back on the Sega Genesis. I think parts of Sonic Unleashed are a major, massive step in the right direction - a bigger step than Sonic's ever had.
 
I think your point is right. Sonic still is the mascot of Sega and represents it. That's why they try so badly to make the game work in 3D. Your comparison to Castlevania was really good. I honestly think that's what Sega should do at this point, though.
Your point of it being 3D is that it can't try to replicate the 2D games, it has to be it's unique game, kinda like Mario has to be very different from their 2D counterparts.
I honestly just wanted some 2D games anyway.
 

Teknoman

Member
This Unleashed stage is a little more platformy. So it does show that the current team is somewhat on the right path, had they not been shoehorned into adding the werehog. Also anymore info on the beta Sonic Chronicles soundtrack.
 
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