You can even overclock hardware. But the upclock MS did was small and you always have to consider power and heat.
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Sony confirms PS4 Neo, [Cites smartphone cycle, waiting until enough games post E3]
- Thread starter Thomper
- Start date
You can even overclock hardware. But the upclock MS did was small and you always have to consider power and heat.
MilkyJoe
Member
They probably down-clocked it for a very good reason.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
Of course, but doesn't preclude an adjustment. I'm much more concerned about the CPU than the GPU though.
I can see the CPU dragging games like Asscreed: Syndicate down, but there are plenty of examples of combinations like an i3 4160 with a gtx 970 hitting 60fps regularly on games. I don't see Uncharted 4 as a CPU-intensive game, but I could be wrong. Here are some links to games that are played on a i3 with gtx 970:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUNTC8beXrU&index=3&list=PLL6Xb55iNd10R0wFBEm3tsjnb7vFaJz6X
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObKqrw-j1EM&index=4&list=PLL6Xb55iNd10R0wFBEm3tsjnb7vFaJz6X
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBbj_GYL954&index=5&list=PLL6Xb55iNd10R0wFBEm3tsjnb7vFaJz6X
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAPstYgp7XU&index=8&list=PLL6Xb55iNd10R0wFBEm3tsjnb7vFaJz6X
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUS17P1_Xxc&index=11&list=PLL6Xb55iNd10R0wFBEm3tsjnb7vFaJz6X
So, like Digital Foundry suggests games like Bloodborne and Dark Souls 3 will probably make the jump from 1080/30 to 1080/60.
TheSpecialOne
Banned
I'm actually game on both. My first console was a Sega that got destroyed by crayons then I played on PC till ps2. Then i went back to PC after ps2 till 2008. Then I picked up a 360 because we stopped releasing next gen sports games on PC. Then I went back to PC in 2011 and then back to ps4 at the start of the Gen. My gaming tastes have started to shift due to stagnation in certain genres like sports games for example so it makes it easy to switch. Almost all the big games get released on PC now unlike the "dark days" so I guess PC has become the best place to pay. A ps4 at launch plus 5 years of PS plus costs about $700+ where I am. If I'm going to have to upgrade every 2-3 years to get the "best" console experience, then it makes no sense for me to play on consoles anymore.
MilkyJoe
Member
Certainly not a 2Tflop adjustment...
AppleSeason
Member
When I think about it... If it sells for 400€ (I hope) it is not that expensive and I would probably throw the same money on a graphics card, but it pisses me off that I still have a fully functional PS4 that I'd have to get rid off..
I have to wonder if retailers will do a trade in of giving the old system and getting a discount on Neo. If it is not intended to be a replacement, it may be a bit hard to see it happening.
I have to wonder if retailers will do a trade in of giving the old system and getting a discount on Neo. If it is not intended to be a replacement, it may be a bit hard to see it happening.
geordiemp
Member
ebay exists.
jeff_rigby
Banned
*SMH RME* Both the 2013 Game consoles are UHD Capable as well as the 2015 PS4 revision, 2016 Xbox1 Slim, 2017 PS4 NEO and 2017 XB1 Scorpio. If any of the latter were to be released today they still couldn't support UHD blu-ray till after September.
Not needed but interesting to me:
If you read the second cite; Sony sent a PS3 developer kit to Collabora in 2007 as they were the first to implement a HTML5 <video> player as Gstreamer bound to Cairo in GTKwebkit which Sony Playstation uses as APIs for their Browser framework for APPs. Cable Labs and Comcast's RDK for Vidipath were supposed to move from QT to GTK also.
jimbobsmells
Member
Totally agree
The process of building most AAAs makes them CPU intensive by definition. Not because they "need" to be for what player gets to see - but because scaling up to 1000s of people is blatantly inefficient. AC games are arguably at the top of that pile.Blizzje said:
Ultimately - effective CPU utilization hasn't been a thing since PS2 generation, so the solution is to throw more resources at the problem, which plays nicely with open platforms, but sucks for consoles.
Negotiator
Member
If you focused on the 300 MHz in order MIPS core and compared to what you could build a PC with back then and you benchmark general purpose code on both I think you are right to see a bigger gulf than what you are seeing when comparing the current 8 core Jaguars to a PC CPU of today, but it would make all those funny and fresh jokes about the current generation console CPU's being sold alongside kids cereals or in Happy Meals less meaningful.
Spot on.
Here's the thing about the console CPU controversy:
15 years ago most people didn't have internet access (let alone flat rate broadband), forum boards were rare and PC gaming wasn't infested with so many ignorant (on technology) gamers
(Controversial opinion: I like to call them "neo-PC gamers", since they didn't care about PC gaming during its golden era, and yeah, that was before Steam came out.)
I agree that Emotion Engine was trash compared to P3/Athlon. Hell, even Cell was trash MIPS-wise (not flops-wise). In-order CPUs suck big time and they require extra compiler/assembly care (out-of-order design reorders opcodes in the optimal order automatically, but it increases the transistor count/cost/thermal output).
Check this out: http://7-cpu.com/
Cell PPE is equivalent to the Intel Atom (isn't that a laptop CPU, just like Jaguar?) and it was single-core with 2 threads. It's also weaker than the Pentium 4 (and that CPU was considered inferior compared to the P3/Core family). Yes, that CPU was running TLOU NPC AI. TLOU2 NPC AI can only be better with 7 Jaguar cores.
I agree that Sony should put Zen in the PS4 Neo APU, but let's not pretend that most PS4 games have utilized 6-7 cores in efficient multithreaded code.
How come Resident Evil (GC remaster) is 30fps only, while TLOU Remastered/Uncharted Trilogy (PS3 remasters) are 60fps? Is the PS3 a weaker console than the GameCube?
IIRC, AC Black Flag utilizes 2 cores and Souls games (Bloodborne & Dark Souls 3) are single-threaded (hence the frame pacing issues in AMD hardware due to DX11/GNMX). AMD hardware needs low-level API coding (DX12, Mantle, Vulkan, GNM) to shine. That's what ND & DICE use. That's what AC Unity needed to have tons of NPCs @ steady 30fps (DX12 draw call bundles/multithreading).
Adam Tyner
Member
The Xbox One Slim launches in August. So you're saying that Ultra HD Blu-ray will not be a part of this at launch?
Hey, man. I'm really sorry about destroying your Sega. Was totally not cool of me.
wesleyshark
Banned
Sure, if ya want to drop ~$800 on a console lol
Proelite
Member
Stupid as fuck when they can get 8TF with one GPU if they wait till late 2017 or 2018.
Why wait for a new card to do 8TF when they can use 2 of the cards that they already have for 8TF?
Negotiator
Member
Because SLI/CF is always worse than having a single, equally powerful GPU. It also increases the BOM (PCB, traces, cooling, power delivery) quite a bit. There's a reason they went the APU route.
On the other hand, if consoles adopted a dual GPU setup, then perhaps PC games would utilize SLI/CF in a more efficient manner.
Btw, is it just me or is the Scorpio APU die size smaller than the XB1 equivalent? Sony could ask AMD to design a bigger APU with 8TF, as long as they can afford it (bigger die size means less chips per wafer and increased chance of manufacturing defects).
jeff_rigby
Banned
Until Navi coming in 2018 you are correct about multiple GPUs but Navi will be a multiple Known good die on interposer technology where they do use several smaller GPU die. It will also likely be 10nm and the EU power board paper for game consoles has the Forth power Tier as 2019 and likely we will see about 10TF at Game console TDP.
Scorpio will use Vega IP with HBM2 and while it's more expensive it frees up power that would be used for GDDR5 in NEO allowing that power to be used for the GPU and explains the extra 2 TF Scorpio can get at about the same TDP.
Sony's NEO will be cheaper than Scorpio and on the market nearly a year before Scorpio. Less than two years after Scorpio ships we will have the next consoles.
About all Sony can do with NEO is to increase the clock thus the TDP slightly but is it worth the chance of higher failures?
Audioboxer
Member
What's the point in waiting? Just do the PS5 in 2019.
No one is going to die when Scorpio comes out and is more powerful than Neo for a year or so.
In the meantime if Neo hits this year enjoy better graphics for the next 12 months till Scorpio comes out... then continue still enjoying it because Neo isn't suddenly dead at that point.
Feral Gingy
Banned
I'd be very happy to buy a Neo this year. I'm not going to buy Xbox Scorpio just because it's more powerful.
I've invested so much money to Playstation over the years that there simply isn't going back anymore.
Too late to have a case redesign increase the cooling?
You have to include proper testing, design of the PSU, and manufacture a lot of systems to enter the market. You don't do that in 2 months. But we don't have a release date, have we?
jeff_rigby
Banned
Possible but the difference is only 30+ days and I rely on the timing in the article which could have changed.
Mentioned in the UHD Blu-ray Game Consoles shipped in 2013 thread is that Microsoft did not write the HD blu-ray player and it looks like they won't write the UHD player so they rely on a third party which could be Sony given that there are only three licencees for UHD BLu-ray and one of them is Sony.
Negotiator
Member
I appreciate your speculations, but no.
We've already seen that Scorpio uses 12 GDDR5(X) chips.
HBM2 is too expensive. We won't see it in consoles before PS5/XB3.
Indeed, so Sony roll with 4.2tf and weather the big gap storm or delay a bit in an attempt to close it.
jeff_rigby
Banned
You sure because 12 is not a multiple of 8 which memory chips typically follow. Please cite so we can confirm because if Scorpio can support 6TF using GDDR5 then they have moved the ARM IP out of the APU as Sony did and Sony can also support 6TF.
Navi in 2018 is using a next generation memory not HBM2 so this is the last chance to use HBM for the consoles and a console using HBM would drive the price down which the industry needs.
mugurumakensei
Member
We know Scorpio is using GDDR5(X?) also from bandwidth. Too low to be hbm2 or even hbm1. I
Not a Jellyfish
but I am a sheep
I really don't understand this "smartphone cycle" talk, I really hope that them and MS don't go this route.
If a new console is going to pop up every 2 years, it is definitely going to be enough to push me to PC gaming.
If a new console is going to pop up every 2 years, it is definitely going to be enough to push me to PC gaming.
It is the route they are going. And it's more like every ~3 or 3 1/2 years, as it seems.
You don't have to upgrade. You "can". If you don't like that, then yes, you can go to PC, where "upgrades" pop up evey year.
just because they release new versions every 2-3 years doesn't mean the old one will stop working. infact MS went out of their way to stress how the new hardware doesnt mean they are leaving the old one behind and all games will still run on it.
jeff_rigby
Banned
1) Then why is it shipping late 2017 and NEO is shipping as a early 2017? 2) Microsoft would have to move the ARM IP out of the APU to use GDDR5 and they have a heavy investment in the 15 ARM accelerators they designed for the XB1 that have to be in the APU.
High end dGPUs use 4 HBM packages to get the higher bandwidth, with HBM1 they needed 4 stacks to get 500GB/sec and I think with 4 8hi HBM2 they get 1000GB/sec max. Scorpio could use Two 4hi HBM2 stacks which would be about right for 380 GB/S as the max would be 500GB/sec.
Anyway I think that is correct. Package size is not as important as the total width to get the bandwidth you need. If you need 1000GB/sec you need 4 packages of 8hi HBM2 so the minimum memory size, 32 GB, is determined by that. This is why they have 4hi and 8hi packages of HBM2.
It's a fair point. People spend 700$ on new smart phones every other year, and while they get more powerful, I feel I don't give a shit about it in smart phones. Here's generations with more iterations in it. If that means seven-eight years generations with three-four years between each new iterations, then that's cool. If I don't like buying it that often, maybe I'll just buy the .5 of each generation. Just like I buy every other major iPhone release. If I can spend 700$ on a new phone every other year, I can spend 400-500$ on a new console every three-four years.
Generally, people have more disposable income now than before, and I don't mind console makers trying to tap into that, if that means that console gaming is pushed forward by it.
I'm not surprised by the lack of a Neo reveal during Sony's press conference, and I doubt they're suddenly looking to leapfrog Scorpio spec-wise. They could try to close the gap a little if there's wiggle room but the time advantage is their strongest suit at this point. Microsoft is trying to get customers to hold off but they haven't shown much software that grabs me, personally. They're going to have a harder time when it isn't a matter of comparing theoretical specs but rather Neo is in stores with compelling footage of Horizon tempting consumers.
nicoga3000
Saint Nic
I'm contemplating picking up a PS4, but it sounds like I'll need to wait a while since the new one will likely be "the one" to own?
digitalrelic
Banned
Yeah, I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense right now. At the very least, it's fair to expect a price drop on the current PS4 once the Neo is official w/ pricing & a release date.
I just really hope the Neo is due to arrive this year.
BleedOrange
Banned
An informed consumer probably shouldn't be picking up either console right now. Wait for Neo.
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