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Sony Controller to Be Named "Move." Bye bye Gem? truly outrageous

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Jun 8, 2004
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Baki said:
But this limits the amount of games that can be designed for the ARC. Most have to be basic because the DS3 is not a suitable alternatice to a nunchuck. This will potentially severely affect the "core" audience adoption of the device. We'd rather just play with the good ol' DS3.
Well, Capcom for one doesn't seem to be concerned... I don't think most devs will be either. Allowing DS3 to be used as a nunchuck is the perfect way to ensure ubiquity, without forcing extra cost on the consumer. And if designing a core game, they can be fairly assured their target audience will have a nunchuck if they want a nunchuck and not a ds3.

Conversely, if designing for a mass audience...the role of the nunchuck is likely to be highly limited if not non-existent. In 'casual Arc' world, wand-only schemes will be predominant anyway.
 

Baki

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SolidSnakex said:
Then they should've thought about designing something that wasn't so costly. They already got themselves into enough shit with the initial price of the PS3, why then turn around and design a new control scheme that will also be expensive?
The EYE is probably dirt cheap. So is nunchuck + wand. But it all adds up. Basically, I definitely think they'll make about $5-7 if they sell wand+nunchuk+game @ 70 BUT if they sold the wand+eye+game at $60 they'd probably make the similar margins while selling the package at $10 lower to the consumer.

@60, SCE gets about $41 back. @70 they get around $51 back.

gofreak said:
Well, Capcom for one doesn't seem to be concerned... I don't think most devs will be either. Allowing DS3 to be used as a nunchuck is the perfect way to ensure ubiquity, without forcing extra cost on the consumer. And if designing a core game, they can be fairly assured their target audience will have a nunchuck if they want a nunchuck and not a ds3.
How many people do you think will be interested in buying a "core" game which utilises the ARC. Especially if very few own a nunchuck.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Jun 8, 2004
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Baki said:
How many people do you think will be interested in buying a "core" game which utilises the ARC. Especially if very few own a nunchuck.
You're not getting me. I don't think devs will have a problem supporting the nunchuck/ds3 in their core games.

edit - sorry, I read that as 'only Arc'...your question is chicken-and-egg. Core people will buy core games for Arc if there are interesting games there for them. They'll buy nunchucks too if the games require them and they're not happy with the Ds3 in that role. My point though, was that I don't think developers will shy from supporting nunchuck/ds3 in their core games.
 

Baki

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gofreak said:
You're not getting me. I don't think devs will have a problem supporting the nunchuck/ds3 in their core games.
I'm not referring to devs. But consumers.

I mean, as alternate control scheme it will do just fine (for a game). But as a sole control scheme (for a game). I'm not so sure.
 

SolidSnakex

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Baki said:
The EYE is probably dirt cheap. So is nunchuck + wand. But it all adds up. Basically, I definitely think they'll make about $5-7 if they sell wand+nunchuk+game @ 70 BUT if they sold the wand+eye+game at $60 they'd probably make the similar margins while selling the package at $10 lower to the consumer.

@60, SCE gets about $41 back. @70 they get around $51 back.
I just think that the nunchuck is a must. Add ons have always been a slippery slope in the industry. If you don't get it right the first time and you leave a sour taste with consumers then that's it. You don't get a second chance with that device. Which is a major reason why we really haven't seen too many add on devices over the years. I believe Sony mentioned earlier that they'll market this as the new "main" controller ofr the PS3, if that's the case then the nunchuck should come with it.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Jun 8, 2004
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Baki said:
I'm not referring to devs. But consumers.

I mean, as alternate control scheme it will do just fine (for a game). But as a sole control scheme (for a game). I'm not so sure.
Sorry, I think I misunderstood and edited above.

But you seem to be moving on to another point again - solely Arc control schemes? No, I don't see that happening very much at all for core games. It'll be DS3 OR ds3/nunchuck+Arc. If a core customer isn't happy with the ds3 as a nunchuck for said games, Sony and devs can I think be fairly assured that this kind of player will pick a nunchuck up off their own bat.

SolidSnakex said:
I believe Sony mentioned earlier that they'll market this as the new "main" controller ofr the PS3, if that's the case then the nunchuck should come with it.
They said it would be 'a' new standard controller 'alongside the DS3'. The latter bit works on a number of levels...both as indicating the DS3 isn't going anywhere, and suggesting the combination of the two in one control scheme.
 

Baki

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SolidSnakex said:
I just think that the nunchuck is a must. Add ons have always been a slippery slope in the industry. If you don't get it right the first time and you leave a sour taste with consumers then that's it. You don't get a second chance with that device. Which is a major reason why we really haven't seen too many add on devices over the years. I believe Sony mentioned earlier that they'll market this as the new "main" controller ofr the PS3, if that's the case then the nunchuck should come with it.
I ABSOLUTELY agree. For penetration (in all genres & demographics), they need the nunchuck (at an affordable price).

gofreak said:
Sorry, I think I misunderstood and edited above.

But you seem to be moving on to another point again - solely Arc control schemes? No, I don't see that happening very much at all for core games. It'll be DS3 OR ds3/nunchuck+Arc. If a core customer isn't happy with the ds3 as a nunchuck for said games, Sony and devs can I think be fairly assured that this kind of player will pick a nunchuck up off their own bat.



They said it would be 'a' new standard controller 'alongside the DS3'. The latter bit works on a number of levels...both as indicating the DS3 isn't going anywhere, and suggesting the combination of the two in one control scheme.
I understand where you are coming from. If the ARC only games is used strictly for simple games (and that is its main allure). Then I can understand SCE only wanting to bundle the ARC+ Eye.

This way they can introduce the ARC at an affordable price without hurting their bottom line. For devs wanting to introduce ARC as an alternate control scheme, they don't have to worry about people lacking nunchucks (because no one will be using the alternate controls :lol :lol )..but seriously, they can rest knowing that the DS3 doubles as one.

But yeah, this approach only makes sense if SIMPLE games are the main attraction. But if they implement motion controls in KZ3, then that means they are taking the core demographic seriously in regards to this controller. If thats the case, they NEED to bundle the nunchuck or they can kiss the core demographic goodbye (for the ARC).
 

Agent X

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DMeisterJ said:
The reason is to not raise the price any higher than it has to go. And no, it wasn't meant to be held with one hand, but it's not like you can't do it. Have you ever played High Velocity Bowling? The DS3 wasn't meant to be held like you're supposed to when you play a game, but the whole game is based around it. Sony is no stranger to this.
True, but trying to use a DS3 as a substitute for a nunchuk (in the Wii sense) is much more cumbersome than the way High Velocity Bowling uses it. This is why people are pushing for Arc to have its own nunchuk, rather than relying on the DS3 to fill that purpose.

SolidSnakex said:
Then they should've thought about designing something that wasn't so costly. They already got themselves into enough shit with the initial price of the PS3, why then turn around and design a new control scheme that will also be expensive?
Well, we really don't now how much more costly it would be, but one thing is certain, that the nunchuk would be an added cost. There's no such thing as a "free" nunchuk.

The question, then, is do they sell the nunchuk separately, or bundle it with the wand, or even bundle it with a separate game that uses it? At this point, there isn't a "correct" answer. We can only speculate, since we don't know much about the early lineup of Arc games, and how those games would utilize the nunchuk.

To answer your question: They shouldn't design a control scheme that's so expensive. Sure, we can see that Guitar Hero and Rock Band controllers were pretty expensive, but that's because people really wanted to play Guitar Hero and Rock Band with them, and were willing to pay the price.

Software sells hardware. If there isn't at least one great game that utilizes the nunchuk to some meaningful degree, then they shouldn't even make a nunchuk.
 

Baki

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cakefoo said:
Oh...Didn't think about holding it like that. I tried doing it vertically. :( :lol

And no..It is not a testament to my intelligence. I think.
 

J-Rzez

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Of course they need a secondary stick input device. It's vital for movement. Aim-boxes are garbage, flat out inaccurate, sluggish or touchy, garbage. I'm a firm believer they should have two nubs, one for each thumb, while one of said controllers having the "pointer" function at the same time.
 

DMeisterJ

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cakefoo said:
http://i47.tinypic.com/29wocg4.gif[IMG][/QUOTE]

Thank you for that. Not sure how holding it and using it with one hand is uncomfortable. Let it rest on your leg, and that's it. Any time I play the Wii I do the exact same thing... Who really stands up and plays Zelda or something with their hand holding the nunchuck in the air?

Answer: no one.
 

SolidSnakex

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gofreak said:
They said it would be 'a' new standard controller 'alongside the DS3'. The latter bit works on a number of levels...both as indicating the DS3 isn't going anywhere, and suggesting the combination of the two in one control scheme.
It shouldn't go anywhere because at the end of the day motion controllers don't suit every genre. But i'll still argue that it shouldn't try to push a DS3 + wand combo as far as control schemes go. Now it should be an option, but the main control scheme should be the wand and nunchuck. So if you're fine using the DS3, then you can just buy a wand + eye combo, but there should also be a combo that ships with the wand, nunchuck and eye.

As I said earlier, the fact that they're creating a nunchuck speaks volumes.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Jun 8, 2004
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Baki said:
But yeah, this approach only makes sense if SIMPLE games are the main attraction. But if they implement motion controls in KZ3, then that means they are taking the core demographic seriously in regards to this controller. If thats the case, they NEED to bundle the nunchuck or they can kiss the core demographic goodbye (for the ARC).
Why? It's not like the core's averse to spending more on their hobby.

I guarantee you that if KZ3 is released, most folks on GAF, for example, playing this with Arc will have bought a nunchuck.

I think what's far more important for core gamers is to have dev support for the nunchuck+Arc in those core games, for devs not to think twice about including schemes with nunchuck support where ncessary. The only way to that is to 1) bundle a nunchuck with every starter bundle at the expense of all, or 2) repurpose a controller everyone already has a lowest common denominator 'nunchuck', and keep the new nunchuck out of standard bundles with a lower price. I think they'll go with 2). They can rely on core folks to take care of themselves and get a nunchuck if it's wanted, while core devs can still design in the knowledge that everyone has a nunchuck of one kind or another.

Don't get me wrong - I'd LOVE for Sony to include a nunchuck with every bundle and not hike up the price. That'd be fantastic, so to a degree, yeah, I'm right behind this campaign to get it included as standard :p But in the absence of that (unrealistic?) scenario, I think what they're doing is the best tradeoff, and I certainly don't think it remotely spells catastrophe for Arc or Arc/nunchuck support in 'core' games.
 

spwolf

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I dont know why does the Sony need to offer Arc for some dirt cheap price... It will be priced so they can make some money on it.

They dont have to offer it for free... They will offer it for free with some family oriented games like eye pet or eye sports (well free for $60 or something).... But what would be the point of offering it with KZ3? Hey, you preffer to play KZ3 with it? Buy it separately.

What is the point of Arc being in hands of every PS3 owner, for "free"? I just dont get it.
 

Elan tedronai

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DMeisterJ said:
I'm glad that you came back from the future and were able to tell us what everyone wanted. Some people, like myself, see no need for the wand, having two perfectly good DS3s laying around. I'll be using those. Damn the nuchuck.

And it is not uncomfortable.

If holding the DS3 with one hand is uncomfortable, you're doing it wrong. The correct word is 'inelegant'. Yes, it's not an elegant solution, but the comfortability is fine.

you are kidding right? no one in their right minds will ever carry DS3 in one hand and the wand on the other. that's when gaming turns into a chore.

sony saved itself a huge embarrasement by releasing a nunchunk with this thing
 

Baki

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gofreak said:
Why? It's not like the core's averse to spending more on their hobby.

I guarantee you that if KZ3 is released, most folks on GAF, for example, playing this with Arc will have bought a nunchuck.

I think what's far more important for core gamers is to have dev support for the nunchuck+Arc in those core games, for devs not to think twice about including schemes with nunchuck support where ncessary. The only way to that is to 1) bundle a nunchuck with every starter bundle at the expense of all, or 2) repurpose a controller everyone already has a lowest common denominator 'nunchuck', and keep the new nunchuck out of standard bundles with a lower price. I think they'll go with 2). They can rely on core folks to take care of themselves and get a nunchuck if it's wanted, while core devs can still design in the knowledge that everyone has a nunchuck of one kind or another.

Don't get me wrong - I'd LOVE for Sony to include a nunchuck with every bundle and not hike up the price. That'd be fantastic, so to a degree, yeah, I'm right behind this campaign to get it included as standard :p But in the absence of that (unrealistic?) scenario, I think what they're doing is the best tradeoff, and I certainly don't think it remotely spells catastrophe for Arc or Arc/nunchuck support in 'core' games.
For the most part I agree.

Core games with optional ARC support = just fine.

BUT..Core games with ARC as a sole control scheme = Fucked. (maybe not completely)

But I don't expect a CORE game which uses ARC as a sole control scheme to sell more than 2M units if nunchuck is not widely adopted.
 

Papercuts

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spwolf said:
I dont know why does the Sony need to offer Arc for some dirt cheap price... It will be priced so they can make some money on it.

They dont have to offer it for free... They will offer it for free with some family oriented games like eye pet or eye sports (well free for $60 or something).... But what would be the point of offering it with KZ3? Hey, you preffer to play KZ3 with it? Buy it separately.

What is the point of Arc being in hands of every PS3 owner, for "free"? I just dont get it.
If you need to buy it separately, you limit the potential completely. If it isn't in every consumer's hands, there's little reason for a developer to exclusively use it for a game, because all it would do is limit the base of players it's selling to...which all adds up to nobody actually using it for much, unless it's optional which would then make it more of a gimmick.
 

Agent X

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spwolf said:
I dont know why does the Sony need to offer Arc for some dirt cheap price... It will be priced so they can make some money on it.
I agree. I don't see Sony as wanting to take a loss on Arc, just to grow the Arc userbase.

spwolf said:
They dont have to offer it for free... They will offer it for free with some family oriented games like eye pet or eye sports (well free for $60 or something).... But what would be the point of offering it with KZ3? Hey, you preffer to play KZ3 with it? Buy it separately.

What is the point of Arc being in hands of every PS3 owner, for "free"? I just dont get it.
There's no point. Like I said, software sells hardware. I remember reading an interview with Nolan Bushnell where he said something like, "People don't want to buy hardware, they want to buy software. Hardware is just something you buy so you can use software."

The success of Arc is really going to depend on the lineup of software they have for it. They need a good mix of patching in support for Arc into existing games (Flower, HVB, LBP, etc.), and creating all-new games that require Arc that are exciting and compelling. If they tilt too heavily toward the former, then people won't buy it because "they don't need to". If they tilt too heavily toward the latter, then the prospect of buying an expensive controller "just for one or two games" could be a turn-off for some people (unless they have a real "killer app", like Nintendo with Wii Fit for example). Fortunately, we know they intend to do both. We just need to find out how exciting and compelling these games are going to be when using Arc controls.
 

yurinka

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Baki said:
For the most part I agree.

Core games with optional ARC support = just fine.

BUT..Core games with ARC as a sole control scheme = Fucked. (maybe not completely)

But I don't expect a CORE game which uses ARC as a sole control scheme to sell more than 2M units if nunchuck is not widely adopted.
How about using head tracking to move the camera and aiming using wand?
I think the remaining (secondary) actions for the buttons of the nunchaku can be mapped to movements if needed, and that would fix the lack of the "left analog" at least for FPS / TPS.
 

SiegfriedFM

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As I've said before, they need some kind of King's Field/Demon's Souls swordfighting game using the mechanics from the E3 demo. A first person game like that could really benefit from the immersion. Make it relatively brief (not gonna do 60 hours standing up in front of the tv, no) but add an online duelling mode or something. That would be a system (peripheral) seller for me.
 

cakefoo

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Elan tedronai said:
you are kidding right? no one in their right minds will ever carry DS3 in one hand and the wand on the other. that's when gaming turns into a chore.

sony saved itself a huge embarrasement by releasing a nunchunk with this thing
I already rest the DS3 in my lap when I play a game. All I'd be doing is letting go of it with the right hand and letting the controller conform to the contours of my lap a little differently. I've sat here twiddling with the stick and triggers and dpad for several minutes on several occasions when the motion controller is criticized, and have never felt awkward. I'm not very eager to find a $ solution to a problem that might not even exist.
 
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RockmanWhore said:
Here is a ugly paint mock up according to the info given by the Alpha and the Omega :

Mostly spot on. Beneath the d-pad on the nunchuk there's a recessed concave black PS button. The Nunchuk seems to be almost as long as the wand. As for the wireless part, I don't think they communicate with each other but both individually with the PS3, so I imagine the dual set-up takes up 2 of the 7 Bluetooth slots.
 

Elan tedronai

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cakefoo said:
I already rest the DS3 in my lap when I play a game. All I'd be doing is letting go of it with the right hand and letting the controller conform to the contours of my lap a little differently. I've sat here twiddling with the stick and triggers and dpad for several minutes on several occasions when the motion controller is criticized, and have never felt awkward. I'm not very eager to find a $ solution to a problem that might not even exist.

you might find the experience normal but i guarantee millions of gamers and casual ones at that will find the experience cumbersome.
 

dogmaan

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Elan tedronai said:
you might find the experience normal but i guarantee millions of gamers and casual ones at that will find the experience cumbersome.
It's nice to have the option though hey?
 

Loudninja

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Elan tedronai said:
you might find the experience normal but i guarantee millions of gamers and casual ones at that will find the experience cumbersome.
How can you guarantee something like that?
 

RockmanWhore

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yurinka said:
How about using head tracking to move the camera and aiming using wand?
I think the remaining (secondary) actions for the buttons of the nunchaku can be mapped to movements if needed, and that would fix the lack of the "left analog" at least for FPS / TPS.
I'd really like to try an FPS with head tracking for turning/looking and the pointer to aim. But I guess it would be very tiring after a while. I'm not sure it's really an option though, as you would need some nice lighting for it to work.
 

TTP

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ichinisan said:
Mostly spot on. Beneath the d-pad on the nunchuk there's a recessed concave black PS button. The Nunchuk seems to be almost as long as the wand. As for the wireless part, I don't think they communicate with each other but both individually with the PS3, so I imagine the dual set-up takes up 2 of the 7 Bluetooth slots.

So, overall, the whole set up has TWO Home buttons and TWO pair of X and O?
 

Elan tedronai

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Loudninja said:
How can you guarantee something like that?
c'mon man. seriously go look at that thread where they showed it in motion with RE. And those are hardcore gaf players. imagine how casual gamers wil feel


dogmaan said:
It's nice to have the option though hey?
by all means. i too want the choice of using a nunchunk
 
Dec 22, 2008
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TTP said:
So, overall, the whole set up has TWO Home buttons and TWO pair of X and O?
Yep. Well for the Home buttons you'd need to connect/train each bluetooth device to the console so its not uncalled for. As for the X and O, yes they are doubled up.

From a mapping point of view I reckon that the T trigger and the Big Button on the wand will both map to R1 and R2. Then you've got the who DS3 mapped across the two devices (with some doubling of X and O). With just a wand your short the dpad/analog (so anything directional) and L1/L2.

I'm not going to get a chance to look into them or anything in the next week and with GDC right round the corner I don't think I'll have to.

All I can also report is that it is highly responsive and accurate (the quote I heard was "Like a quick Wii remote thats right every time!"). No words on lag measurements though, sorry.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
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Elan tedronai said:
c'mon man. seriously go look at that thread where they showed it in motion with RE. And those are hardcore gaf players. imagine how casual gamers wil feel
I think that was mostly reaction based on the idea of it, the sight of it, as opposed actual use of it.

Its my opinion that the (non)usability of the DS3 one-handed is grossly exagerrated and mostly based on expectation rather than experience. It's certainly usable, at least to me. Optimal? No. Optimal would be chopping off the other half, because in this configuration the other half is redundant. But it's not quite a chore either.

As for 'casuals' though, cumbersome or not, I don't think the DS3 or nunchuck will be a concern for them in 'casual' Arc games. 9/10 such games are likely to hone in exclusively on the wand and not require a second controller in the non-dominant hand.
 

deepbrown

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ichinisan said:
Yep. Well for the Home buttons you'd need to connect/train each bluetooth device to the console so its not uncalled for. As for the X and O, yes they are doubled up.

From a mapping point of view I reckon that the T trigger and the Big Button on the wand will both map to R1 and R2. Then you've got the who DS3 mapped across the two devices (with some doubling of X and O). With just a wand your short the dpad/analog (so anything directional) and L1/L2.

I'm not going to get a chance to look into them or anything in the next week and with GDC right round the corner I don't think I'll have to.

All I can also report is that it is highly responsive and accurate (the quote I heard was "Like a quick Wii remote thats right every time!"). No words on lag measurements though, sorry.
What does this big button look like? Do you mean the big globe on the end of the thing? Or is the big button somwhere else? I don't see it in the mock-up...unless it's that black thing that I thought was an analogue stick (only analogue stick on nunchuck then...)