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Sony Controller to Be Named "Move." Bye bye Gem? truly outrageous

Trailblaster said:
I think we'll see Sony really playing up the Camera and Augmented Reality aspects of Arc to try and set them selves apart and or ahead of the Wii'mote. But as with everything else it'll come to down to the software.

Also I wonder if Killzone2 could even be patched to use Arc. I can imagine the PSeye and Arc occupying a SPU and some system ram. Could you get something as good looking as KZ2 or Uncharted running while the Pseye and Arc are being used?
I know Resident Evil 5 is no KZ2 or U2, but still it has some nice visuals and it was already shown working with the "arc" at TGS right? I guess it doesn't use that much of processing power from the PS3.
 

noah111

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Trailblaster said:
I think we'll see Sony really playing up the Camera and Augmented Reality aspects of Arc to try and set them selves apart and or ahead of the Wii'mote. But as with everything else it'll come to down to the software.

Also I wonder if Killzone2 could even be patched to use Arc. I can imagine the PSeye and Arc occupying a SPU and some system ram. Could you get something as good looking as KZ2 or Uncharted running while the Pseye and Arc are being used?
I highly doubt that KZ2 or U2 would be patched for Arc. We'll have to wait for the sequels for that, and even then it might not even support it.. I'd love to see an FPS done well with Arc.

PS. Has it occurred to anyone else that A.R.C. (
might
) = Augmented Reality Controller? :lol
 

Madman

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Y2Kev said:
I don't think so. Resistance 2 was already revealed by this point in 2008. I'm really thinking R3 could be 2011.
A Crack in Time was revealed at GDC, so it's possible it will be revealed then.
 

Apath

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Killzone 2 would suck with the arc because of the weighted controls. IMO its controls are perfect for a controller and should stay that way. Probably wouldn't be better with a mouse either.
 

noah111

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Kenak said:
Killzone 2 would suck with the arc because of the weighted controls. IMO its controls are perfect for a controller and should stay that way. Probably wouldn't be better with a mouse either.
Pretty much. I could see it working, but it would take a lot more than I think they'd be willing to devote imo.
 

Ploid 3.0

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I just got a wii and I already want them to stop with the motion controls. At least disable it for menus and navigation. Don't do this sony
 

rollingstart

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I actually think Killzone 2 would be one game that would control better with the motion controller. The feeling of weight is still there when turning, where it really should be, while aiming is just the usual point and shoot stuff like Wii shooters. That's what kinda bothered me about KZ2. Aiming shouldn't feel that weightly, the body movement should, and if you imagine aiming a pistol you aren't using your full body like you would turning. I think even something like Timesplitters or Lost Planet where the reticule has a lead on the screen turning would have been a better choice.
 
Dec 22, 2008
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Sorry was offline for a bit.

Just to confirm that this is fact I've heard from my friend on Saturday. He's to be trusted (by me at least) and so I hope you guys trust me. I believe this is happening but if proven wrong I'm sure I'll be banned or branded a knobhead or something.

I'll speak to him later this week about the exact details of the buttons but he says that the nunchuk only arrived fairly recently and both have the mini-usb socket in the bottom. He didn't have any more info about naming though.

Oh and before anyone asks not disclosing who my friend is...
 

KZObsessed

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Linkzg said:
I actually think Killzone 2 would be one game that would control better with the motion controller. The feeling of weight is still there when turning, where it really should be, while aiming is just the usual point and shoot stuff like Wii shooters. That's what kinda bothered me about KZ2. Aiming shouldn't feel that weightly, the body movement should, and if you imagine aiming a pistol you aren't using your full body like you would turning. I think even something like Timesplitters or Lost Planet where the reticule has a lead on the screen turning would have been a better choice.
But it should feel somewhat weighty. The big rifles anyway, I do understand the complaint about the pistols tho. Having weighty movement like you're a real soldier then having weightless point and shoot stuff would be awful. There'd be a disconnect there. What people enjoy most about KZ2 controls (those that like them of course) is not so much the movement but the feel of aiming and shooting the guns. That would change completely if using a motion controller, and personally no FPS I've played with the Wii motion controller has been anywhere near as enjoyable to control/shoot/kill as KZ2 or other console/PC FPSs. That's not to say they couldn't get it controlling well with the "Arc" or whatever but I'd certainly be very concerned about them losing what makes KZ2's shooting so enjoyable for most people.
 

Livanh

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FFObsessed said:
But it should feel somewhat weighty. The big rifles anyway, I do understand the complaint about the pistols tho. Having weighty movement like you're a real soldier then having weightless point and shoot stuff would be awful. There'd be a disconnect there. What people enjoy most about KZ2 controls (those that like them of course) is not so much the movement but the feel of aiming and shooting the guns. That would change completely if using a motion controller, and personally no FPS I've played with the Wii motion controller has been anywhere near as enjoyable to control/shoot/kill as KZ2 or other console/PC FPSs. That's not to say they couldn't get it controlling well with the "Arc" or whatever but I'd certainly be very concerned about them losing what makes KZ2's shooting so enjoyable for most people.
+1
 

Sidewinder

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ichinisan said:
Sorry was offline for a bit.

Just to confirm that this is fact I've heard from my friend on Saturday. He's to be trusted (by me at least) and so I hope you guys trust me. I believe this is happening but if proven wrong I'm sure I'll be banned or branded a knobhead or something.

I'll speak to him later this week about the exact details of the buttons but he says that the nunchuk only arrived fairly recently and both have the mini-usb socket in the bottom. He didn't have any more info about naming though.

Oh and before anyone asks not disclosing who my friend is...
Tell your friend they should implement dual analog sticks, so it doesn't just turn out to become some kind of MiiToo accessory.

But hey at least it won't be just single wand and 0 analog sticks or weird dualshock use. So that's a huge improvement.

My interest in the Sony ARC just raised from "meh don't care anymore" to "hmm this could get interesting" but it hasn't reached the hype level after the E3 show, dual wand wielding fantasies and the hardcore gamer promise...please surprise us Sony!

Oh and the combination of ARC, PSeye and 3D has the potential to bring some exciting new game concepts and experiences.
 
Dec 22, 2008
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Sidewinder said:
Tell your friend they should implement dual analog sticks, so it doesn't just turn out to become some kind of MiiToo accessory.

But hey at least it won't be just single wand and 0 analog sticks or weird dualshock use. So that's a huge improvement.

My interest in the Sony ARC just raised from "meh don't care anymore" to "hmm this could get interesting" but it hasn't reached the hype level after the E3 show, dual wand wielding fantasies and the hardcore gamer promise...please surprise use Sony!
He doesn't work for Sony, just a developer who are looking at implementing Arc in something. Dual analog isn't really for me though. Surely wireless nunchuk is the differentiator.
 

Sidewinder

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ichinisan said:
He doesn't work for Sony, just a developer who are looking at implementing Arc in something. Dual analog isn't really for me though. Surely wireless nunchuk is the differentiator.
Do we actually know by now, what exactly this button/knob in the center of the ARC is, if not maybe you could ask him about that. Thanks for your insight btw.
 

Mad_Ban

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No chance of dodgy spy photos from said friend? In so low a quality that the internet thinks it's fake (much like the PS3 slim drama).
 

rollingstart

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FFObsessed said:
But it should feel somewhat weighty. The big rifles anyway, I do understand the complaint about the pistols tho. Having weighty movement like you're a real soldier then having weightless point and shoot stuff would be awful. There'd be a disconnect there. What people enjoy most about KZ2 controls (those that like them of course) is not so much the movement but the feel of aiming and shooting the guns. That would change completely if using a motion controller, and personally no FPS I've played with the Wii motion controller has been anywhere near as enjoyable to control/shoot/kill as KZ2 or other console/PC FPSs. That's not to say they couldn't get it controlling well with the "Arc" or whatever but I'd certainly be very concerned about them losing what makes KZ2's shooting so enjoyable for most people.
I somewhat agree but also think they can easily account for that when designing it. I should have clarified that I meant more fine aiming ant not everything present on the screen. Like I said, I think having the crosshair on screen move a bit before the screen like Lost Planet would have fit the idea I thought they were going for.
 
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Mad_Ban said:
No chance of dodgy spy photos from said friend? In so low a quality that the internet thinks it's fake (much like the PS3 slim drama).
No chance at all. Sorry, I'm not putting anyone at risk here. Hence my very general posts...
 

SolidSnakex

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Mad_Ban said:
No chance of dodgy spy photos from said friend? In so low a quality that the internet thinks it's fake (much like the PS3 slim drama).
It's possible that we'll get a glimpse of the nunchuk device next month at GDC. So you might not have to wait too long to see it.
 

hsukardi

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FFObsessed said:
But it should feel somewhat weighty. The big rifles anyway, I do understand the complaint about the pistols tho. Having weighty movement like you're a real soldier then having weightless point and shoot stuff would be awful. There'd be a disconnect there. What people enjoy most about KZ2 controls (those that like them of course) is not so much the movement but the feel of aiming and shooting the guns. That would change completely if using a motion controller, and personally no FPS I've played with the Wii motion controller has been anywhere near as enjoyable to control/shoot/kill as KZ2 or other console/PC FPSs. That's not to say they couldn't get it controlling well with the "Arc" or whatever but I'd certainly be very concerned about them losing what makes KZ2's shooting so enjoyable for most people.
Gameplay >> Realism/conventions

The Wiimote doesn't exactly do a great job in replicating the force feedback experience of swinging a tennis racket or a golf club. Perhaps the disconnect will be stronger in games with more realistic graphics compared to the general bright and pastel palette of Wii games.

One way to resolve for this is of course purchasing apparel like the Wiimote body slips - wheels, guns etc. Having a large gun body slip for serious FPS games could do but what if the player switches to a pistol..? :lol

At the end of the day, form and content are dynamically adjusting factors and both will reach an equilibrium point. There's a chance that games will evolve to better fit the Arc motion control in terms of story convention, graphics, effects and such.
 

gofreak

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Sidewinder said:
Tell your friend they should implement dual analog sticks, so it doesn't just turn out to become some kind of MiiToo accessory.
It'd be too confusing to mix pointer-y stuff on the wand with analog stick stuff simultaneously. What's most important is that you have a stick for your left hand (or right if you're left-handed).

IMO the big differentiator is obviously the camera and the things they can or will do with that alongside the wand (and - duh - the general AV experience from HD to 3D etc.). I've noted subtle and not-so-subtle moves to incorporate references to computer vision alongside the motion controller by Sony people in recent times, which I think is in response to Natal interest. I'm semi hopeful that the wand and natal will see a re-emergence of interest in computer vision in games. Sony has a session on computer vision at GDC alongside the Motion Controller presentation, which somewhat amusingly is openly suggested for any Natal programmers too. It'd be nice to see computer vision finally really explored in games, and I hope devs from all sides will share experience. It's a challenging area so I think they'll need to.
 

noah111

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Thanks ichinisan for the info, you should probably bail before someone starts asking more questions and getting annoying.

Anyway, i'm going to assume for logistical reasons that the nunchuck will have just as many buttons as half of a DualShock 3, thus people can either use their existing controllers as a nunchuck (like they've been showing) or get the nunchuck, basically. Hopefully there isn't only a square & circle face buttons, but who knows. GDC isn't too far away so.

DS3;
dpad
4 face buttons
2 analog sticks
2 left shoulder triggers
2 right shoulder triggers

Arc;
4 face buttons
1 shoulder trigger
1 giant button
∞ 1:1 motion sensing etc

Arc + DS3 (as nuncuck);
dpad (thought not too functional)
4 face buttons
1 analog stick (DS3)
3 shoulder triggers (DS3 L1/L2 + Arc trigger)
1 giant button (Arc)
∞ 1:1 motion sensing etc

Arc + wireless nunchuck;
8 face buttons (4 on Arc, 4 on nunchuck)
1 analog stick (nunchuck)
3 shoulder triggers (DS3 L1/L2 + Arc trigger)
1 giant button (Arc)
∞ 1:1 motion sensing etc

So basically from the DS3 to Arc we're only down one analog stick (which is replaced by motion controls), 1 trigger (since the Arc has one not two), and a dpad which is replaced by another set of [] ^ X O buttons. I think this can easily be applied to any modern game from a button standpoint, whereas before it was in doubt due to the lack of buttons. I still see promise, will wait for GDC presentation.
 

spwolf

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a lot of games will control better with pointer method, it is just more intuitive to point to something on the screen...
 

-viper-

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Massa said:
I'll be pretty pissed if that's the case. I don't want to use the wand for those games AND I also don't want to play people using them in multiplayer.
I wouldn't mind it if the motion controls are only an OPTION for SP.
 

Kinitari

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My interest in the 'Arc' went from crazy to nothing when I found out there was no analog, and I was a little grossed out when I saw the DS3+Arc usage.

I don't know HOW I feel about a nunchuck like device. I mean, I don't really care if it copies the wii-mote+nunchuck 1:1. What matters to me is whether or not I can play games like Oblivion with the Arc+chuck - and I don't quite visualize it. Besides the obvious gameplay kinks that would need to be worked out, I don't think I will be able to believe that these controls will be integraded sincerely with the sort of games I like, until I see it I guess.
 

gcubed

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we wont have to wait very long to find out if there is a nunchuck like device as i would assume the near final product will be shown at GDC in their preso's.

If its a wireless 2nd controller, it doesnt quite qualify as a nunchuck does it?
 

AndyD

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Kinitari said:
My interest in the 'Arc' went from crazy to nothing when I found out there was no analog, and I was a little grossed out when I saw the DS3+Arc usage.

I don't know HOW I feel about a nunchuck like device. I mean, I don't really care if it copies the wii-mote+nunchuck 1:1. What matters to me is whether or not I can play games like Oblivion with the Arc+chuck - and I don't quite visualize it. Besides the obvious gameplay kinks that would need to be worked out, I don't think I will be able to believe that these controls will be integraded sincerely with the sort of games I like, until I see it I guess.
It would work well with Oblivion style actually. The "chuck" could handle the movement of the character with the stick, the pointer would be centered and your field of view (FPS style). Then buttons would do the various things normal buttons do.

This combo of pointer centered and controlling camera (emulating the right stick, or a PC FPS mouse) and analog stick on the nunchuk for movement is something I have not seen so far. Even on the Wii, i have not played any games that behave like that.
 

Stumpokapow

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I don't know if the nunchuk will do much in terms of sales or positioning. I don't know if it'll do much in terms of encouraging more development because I really believe that the best case scenario is that it gets a few extra Wii up-ports. I firmly believe that almost all Arc / Natal support in the first year or two (outside first party games, of course) will be omni-platform games like EA Sports Active that use each motion controller to accomplish largely the same things.

... but despite my skepticism, the nunchuk will sure as hell make stuff like the RE5 Motion Control version infinitely more playable than a Wand+half a DS3 setup.
 

Agnates

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AndyD said:
This combo of pointer centered and controlling camera (emulating the right stick, or a PC FPS mouse) and analog stick on the nunchuk for movement is something I have not seen so far. Even on the Wii, i have not played any games that behave like that.
Because it's better if the pointer isn't centered, and you shouldn't wish for it to be so. The point of POINTING is to roughly point where you want to shoot (no, it's not accurate on Wii in games that don't have proper calibration, but with the remote in your lap it feels just as good as if it was, you don't have iron sights to look down to and see that the aim is a little off to the left or whatever). If the crosshair is always centered then you aren't pointing, you're controlling the view with tilts basically. Moreover, you'd still need a threshold point where you engage in "screen pushing" as on Wii anyway, since you can't just twist your wrist around itself to do circles.
 

Bluemercury

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FFObsessed said:
But it should feel somewhat weighty. The big rifles anyway, I do understand the complaint about the pistols tho. Having weighty movement like you're a real soldier then having weightless point and shoot stuff would be awful. There'd be a disconnect there. What people enjoy most about KZ2 controls (those that like them of course) is not so much the movement but the feel of aiming and shooting the guns. That would change completely if using a motion controller, and personally no FPS I've played with the Wii motion controller has been anywhere near as enjoyable to control/shoot/kill as KZ2 or other console/PC FPSs. That's not to say they couldn't get it controlling well with the "Arc" or whatever but I'd certainly be very concerned about them losing what makes KZ2's shooting so enjoyable for most people.

killzone 2 sports some of the worst controls i've played on a console...and please dont the PC on the same sentence.....because pc controls with a mouse which is what the wiimote actually tries to acomplish and in some ways its better...killzone 2 feels slow and clumsy....
 

spwolf

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Stumpokapow said:
I don't know if the nunchuk will do much in terms of sales or positioning. I don't know if it'll do much in terms of encouraging more development because I really believe that the best case scenario is that it gets a few extra Wii up-ports. I firmly believe that almost all Arc / Natal support in the first year or two (outside first party games, of course) will be omni-platform games like EA Sports Active that use each motion controller to accomplish largely the same things.
... but despite my skepticism, the nunchuk will sure as hell make stuff like the RE5 Motion Control version infinitely more playable than a Wand+half a DS3 setup.
probably... plus first party efforts.

It really depends on the sales, of Arc/natal sell a lot, you will see users wanting support implemented and you will see devs implementing it.

There is also an question of how easy is to implement - as arc controls are probably used via sdk that is same or similar to dualshock sdk, they might make it very simple to add. And if they do, then i dont see why they would not give you the option of it... publishers might use it as selling point over other games.
 

see5harp

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Wireless nunchuk is nice, but there better be a way to plug it in to the controller to daisy chain power or charge. I want a single AC adapter/usb power cord.
 

TTP

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Sentry said:
Thanks ichinisan for the info, you should probably bail before someone starts asking more questions and getting annoying.

Anyway, i'm going to assume for logistical reasons that the nunchuck will have just as many buttons as half of a DualShock 3, thus people can either use their existing controllers as a nunchuck (like they've been showing) or get the nunchuck, basically. Hopefully there isn't only a square & circle face buttons, but who knows. GDC isn't too far away so.

DS3;
dpad
4 face buttons
2 analog sticks
2 left shoulder triggers
2 right shoulder triggers

Arc;
4 face buttons
1 shoulder trigger
1 giant button
∞ 1:1 motion sensing etc

Arc + DS3 (as nuncuck);
dpad (thought not too functional)
4 face buttons
1 analog stick (DS3)
3 shoulder triggers (DS3 L1/L2 + Arc trigger)
1 giant button (Arc)
∞ 1:1 motion sensing etc

Arc + wireless nunchuck;
8 face buttons (4 on Arc, 4 on nunchuck)
1 analog stick (nunchuck)
3 shoulder triggers (DS3 L1/L2 + Arc trigger)
1 giant button (Arc)
∞ 1:1 motion sensing etc

So basically from the DS3 to Arc we're only down one analog stick (which is replaced by motion controls), 1 trigger (since the Arc has one not two), and a dpad which is replaced by another set of [] ^ X O buttons. I think this can easily be applied to any modern game from a button standpoint, whereas before it was in doubt due to the lack of buttons. I still see promise, will wait for GDC presentation.
Nice summary, but I doubt the nunchuck has another set of [] ^ X O buttons. Wouldn't it be redundant and confusing to have two sets of the very same buttons?
"Press X to jump" - er, wait... which one?

I bet it has a d-pad instead.
 

-viper-

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Bluemercury said:
killzone 2 sports some of the worst controls i've played on a console...and please dont the PC on the same sentence.....because pc controls with a mouse which is what the wiimote actually tries to acomplish and in some ways its better...killzone 2 feels slow and clumsy....
No - the fact that you were unable to adapt to the controls is why you're complaining about the controls.

They were unique and were damn good. The weight of the controls made the game.
 

backbreaker65

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Is it possible that little flat surface on top of the PSMC is like a mouse pad type of thing to replace the analog stick?
 

tzare

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i guess arc's main feature against wiimote would be, not only a better 1:1 tacing, but being able to keep it without pointing the screen, something i found really annoying in most Wii shooters, the the camera just goes mad :D
 

noah111

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gluv65 said:
Is it possible that little flat surface on top of the PSMC is like a mouse pad type of thing to replace the analog stick?
Doubtful, from what we have seen in the past it's definitely just one giant button, analog sensitive probably (as the DS3 buttons).

Things may have changed a bit since we last saw it though.

TTP said:
Nice summary, but I doubt the nunchuck has another set of [] ^ X O buttons. Wouldn't it be redundant and confusing to have two sets of the very same buttons?
"Press X to jump" - er, wait... which one?

I bet it has a d-pad instead.
Perhaps.. I was just going off that assumption due to the info from ichinisan about a circle and square being on it. It will be interesting to see how they design a nunchuck though.

I can't really see a dpad in the traditional sense being on it, since you need an analog stick as well.. perhaps a separated dpad with the buttons surrounding the stick..
 

Lonely1

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gofreak said:
It'd be too confusing to mix pointer-y stuff on the wand with analog stick stuff simultaneously. What's most important is that you have a stick for your left hand (or right if you're left-handed).
The issue I see with a Wii-mote like setup is that, although it works great with a game that demands you to constantly control the camera, like a FPS, It's inherent instability makes a pointed based camera not an ideal solution for other kind of games, like a platforming heavy TPS (Uncharted). With a dual analog Arc, you could control the camera with the analog in third person mode and aim with the pointer, it would be an ideal solution imo.

Also, I hoped for the 2 wands setup to replacing the DS3 entirely :(
 

Kittonwy

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Feb 21, 2006
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Bluemercury said:
killzone 2 sports some of the worst controls i've played on a console...and please dont the PC on the same sentence.....because pc controls with a mouse which is what the wiimote actually tries to acomplish and in some ways its better...killzone 2 feels slow and clumsy....
To replicate mouse on consoles you can use a mouse on consoles, it's stupid to equate the wii-mote with a mouse, it's not even close, in terms of aim stability the wii-mote is inferior even to a controller, and in terms of camera control with the wii-mote you'll always have the problem of balancing the player moving the reticle around and actual camera turning via the bound box, whereas both the mouse and the controller basically you're moving the camera, and the reticle is always centered.

You might not like Killzone 2 controls but for those of us who actually play the game we like it quite a bit, it's actually pretty good.
 

TTP

Have a fun! Enjoy!
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Sentry said:
Perhaps.. I was just going off that assumption due to the info from ichinisan about a circle and square being on it. It will be interesting to see how they design a nunchuck though.

I can't really see a dpad in the traditional sense being on it, since you need an analog stick as well.. perhaps a separated dpad with the buttons surrounding the stick..
Well, just think of the left side of the current DS2 with some ergonomic tweaks. Perhaps with inverted D-Pad and stick placement.
 

Lonely1

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Kittonwy said:
To replicate mouse on consoles you can use a mouse on consoles, it's stupid to equate the wii-mote with a mouse, it's not even close, in terms of aim stability the wii-mote is inferior even to a controller, and in terms of camera control with the wii-mote you'll always have the problem of balancing the player moving the reticle around and actual camera turning via the bound box, whereas both the mouse and the controller basically you're moving the camera, and the reticle is always centered.

You might not like Killzone 2 controls but for those of us who actually play the game we like it quite a bit, it's actually pretty good.
Is not a problem at all.
 

Kittonwy

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Sentry said:
Doubtful, from what we have seen in the past it's definitely just one giant button, analog sensitive probably (as the DS3 buttons).

Things may have changed a bit since we last saw it though.


Perhaps.. I was just going off that assumption due to the info from ichinisan about a circle and square being on it. It will be interesting to see how they design a nunchuck though.

I can't really see a dpad in the traditional sense being on it, since you need an analog stick as well.. perhaps a separated dpad with the buttons surrounding the stick..
The right analog stick is definitely needed for camera control, twisting the pointer around to turn is going to be really awkward.
 

noah111

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Kittonwy said:
The right analog stick is definitely needed for camera control, twisting the pointer around to turn is going to be really awkward.
Not sure what you mean really, it all depends on the game. Even then, motion controls can serve dual purposes depending on a certain button press for example..

TTP said:
Well, just think of the left side of the current DS2 with some ergonomic tweaks. Perhaps with inverted D-Pad and stick placement.
That could work, just hope it doesn't come out too awkward looking/feeling. The whole point of the nunchuck is to not have to use the DS3 in such a weird way.
 

gofreak

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Lonely1 said:
With a dual analog Arc, you could control the camera with the analog in third person mode and aim with the pointer, it would be an ideal solution imo.
Maybe it's just me but I think it would be a nightmare controlling the camera + aiming with an analog stick and pointing, respectively, on the same hand. At least doing so simultaneously.

I think DS4 will probably be two wands with sticks stuck together though, if it's any consolation. Just so they can have 'one controller' that does everything vs the 2 they'll have with this (relatively temporary) solution.
 

Lonely1

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Jul 20, 2009
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Kittonwy said:
Camera-control is a problem regardless of whether you're willing to recognize it or not.
You said, as a Kz2 regular player, that you have no problems with the ways it controls. I say, as a regular Wii FPS player, that there's no problem with the way it controls the camera. The farther you move the cursor form the center, the faster the camera will move. It gives you a bigger degree of control than an analog.