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Sony expects to post a fiscal-year loss of more than $2 billion

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Jul 28, 2014
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Yeah, Sony will not survive the decade and Kaz is pretty fucked. No one wants their products, yet they keep forcing themselves into every market.
 

Opiate

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I think a lot of people believe the gaming division is doing extremely well when it's not. It's doing fine, mind you, but the market PS4 has placed itself in is very low margin and thus the gaming division hasn't made a profit since the PS4 launched. Again, this doesn't mean the gaming division is a huge failure, it just means it isn't this smashing success in a sea of failures. If you want that division inside Sony, you're looking for their financial divisions. Their life insurance division is what's keeping the business afloat.

As another note, according to this article, Sony is writing down the value of its mobile unit by approximately 1.68 Billion dollars. That still leaves a net loss of 470 Million dollars expected in cash flow. By writing down the value of its mobile division, Sony is essentially admitting that they've lost the mobile war and have been pushed out of that market as a major player. Thus, the value of its mobile arm goes from "this is a major player in a fast growing market' down to the value of "this is a small-to-mid level player in a fast growing market."
 

teruterubozu

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I think a lot of people believe the gaming division is doing extremely well when it's not. It's doing fine, mind you, but the market PS4 has placed itself in is very low margin and thus the gaming division hasn't made a profit since the PS4 launched. Again, this doesn't mean the gaming division is a huge failure, it just means it isn't this smashing success in a sea of failures. If you want that division inside Sony, you're looking for their financial divisions. Their life insurance division is what's keeping the business afloat.
True, but their gaming division is the one place where their brand name hasn't taken such a huge hit. It's their shining beacon in the public eye.
 

The Shogun

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Jul 24, 2014
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It's really disappointing seeing these continued losses. On the gaming side of the business Sony hit an absolute home run and have been doing fantastic but the rest of the company is pretty much being run into the ground.

At this point I believe insurance and gaming are their only profitable divisions correct?
 

slit

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True, but their gaming division is the one place where their brand name hasn't taken such a huge hit. It's their shining beacon in the public eye.
Yeah but I think it gives people a false impression of how much trouble the company is in, especially in the gaming community . That's not important in the grand scheme of things, but if things don't improve some people are going to be in for a shock.
 

The Shogun

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Jul 24, 2014
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So I haven't looked into Sonys current market value but honest question how much would it cost MS to buy the Playstation division?

Considering they just dropped 2.5 billion on Mojang its not a stretch to think they would consider such a thing if the price was right. I'm sure its currently still to expensive not to mention I doubt Sony is looking to sell but Im curious.
 

Opiate

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It's really disappointing seeing these continued losses. On the gaming side of the business Sony hit an absolute home run and have been doing fantastic but the rest of the company is pretty much being run into the ground.

At this point I believe insurance and gaming are their only profitable divisions correct?
Just insurance. Gaming is treading water, as is their film division.
 
Jul 28, 2014
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It's really disappointing seeing these continued losses. On the gaming side of the business Sony hit an absolute home run and have been doing fantastic but the rest of the company is pretty much being run into the ground.

At this point I believe insurance and gaming are their only profitable divisions correct?
Sony's Gaming Division hasn't been hitting a home run and doing fantastic since the PS2 days.
 

Opiate

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Sony's Gaming Division hasn't been hitting a home run and doing fantastic since the PS2 days.
Well, it's certainly doing better than it was in the early PS3 days. But yes, it's not a "home run" either.

If anyone wanted to know why Nintendo and Microsoft both made these quirky, weird decisions with their hardware that didn't pay off (the Wii U tablet, Kinect mandatory, etc.), this is the reason. The traditional console space is so low margin at this point that even something that "hits a home run" like the PS4 isn't a huge money maker.
 

The Shogun

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Jul 24, 2014
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Sony's Gaming Division hasn't been hitting a home run and doing fantastic since the PS2 days.
Perhaps calling it a home run was too kind but the Playstation brand is plenty healthy.

it posted a small profit last quarter at the beginning of the generation when hardware margins are lowest and without any of their major brands such as Uncharted and Gran Turismo releasing.

So maybe fantastic isn't the right word but its doing well.
 

Opiate

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Perhaps calling it a home run was too kind but the Playstation brand is plenty healthy.

it posted a small profit last quarter at the beginning of the generation when hardware margins are lowest and without any of their major brands such as Uncharted and Gran Turismo releasing.

So maybe fantastic isn't the right word but its doing well.
Yes, the PS4 is doing about as well as a traditional console can do in the modern environment.
 
May 3, 2013
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I feel like I'm happy about this.

Instead of saying "Hey, we're huge, let's collaborate internally and make products people could only get from us, like a true PSP Phone or out-Netflix Netflix with original quality content" they just do whatever half assed.

Instead of being elegant like an Apple, they release 30 products that compete with eachother, all named weird alpha-numeric illogical names.

Their Xperia brand is alienating to the American (and every?) market. They need to drop it the way they dropped Ericson, and the way LG had to drop Optimus from the G2/G3 to help take off.

PS4 is cool, but it's more that Xbox fucked up so hard than they created some sort of innovative masterpiece. The build quality is the suck, for controllers at least, and plenty of features are missing.

They just do so much wrong.
 

Mysterious

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Oct 18, 2012
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So I haven't looked into Sonys current market value but honest question how much would it cost MS to buy the Playstation division?

Considering they just dropped 2.5 billion on Mojang its not a stretch to think they would consider such a thing if the price was right. I'm sure its currently still to expensive not to mention I doubt Sony is looking to sell but Im curious.
They wanted to buy Nintendo Co. Ltd. under Ballmer. I doubt Nadella wants to do anything of the sort with PlayStation.
 

Mononoke

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Dec 26, 2012
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I think a lot of people believe the gaming division is doing extremely well when it's not. It's doing fine, mind you, but the market PS4 has placed itself in is very low margin and thus the gaming division hasn't made a profit since the PS4 launched. Again, this doesn't mean the gaming division is a huge failure, it just means it isn't this smashing success in a sea of failures. If you want that division inside Sony, you're looking for their financial divisions. Their life insurance division is what's keeping the business afloat.

As another note, according to this article, Sony is writing down the value of its mobile unit by approximately 1.68 Billion dollars. That still leaves a net loss of 470 Million dollars expected in cash flow. By writing down the value of its mobile division, Sony is essentially admitting that they've lost the mobile war and have been pushed out of that market as a major player. Thus, the value of its mobile arm goes from "this is a major player in a fast growing market' down to the value of "this is a small-to-mid level player in a fast growing market."
So at what point does a company decide that breaking even on a division is not worth it anymore? I mean even assuming the gaming division makes profit, from what I'm reading...the profit will never be huge. So why stick around? How does this model benefit stock holders?
 

lightzGamin

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Feb 6, 2013
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This loses occurred due to the poor sales of its mobile division. If Xperia z3 fails their phone division is good as dead. They should drop out of the business NOW and focus on tv, gaming, insurance and movies. I also don't think their camera division will survive another 5 years, they should just sell their sensors to camera makers and smartphones.
 

Opiate

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So at what point does a company decide that breaking even on a division is not worth it anymore? I mean even assuming the gaming division makes profit, from what I'm reading...the profit will never be huge. So why stick around? How does this model benefit stock holders?
It's completely fine for Sony given their market position. Microsoft is the one who is more likely to pull out, if anything.

Stockholders for Microsoft have reason to believe that MS can do something better with that investment. MS' standard is Windows, Office, and now Azure, all which have very high profit margins. From their perspective, a segment that is treading water would be a real disappointment. By contrast, most of Sony's businesses are struggling, so from that perspective a unit that is treading water with strong brand awareness is just fine. This concept is referred to as opportunity cost; Microsoft's opportunity cost is higher than Sony's.
 

Saucycarpdog

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Well, it's certainly doing better than it was in the early PS3 days. But yes, it's not a "home run" either.

If anyone wanted to know why Nintendo and Microsoft both made these quirky, weird decisions with their hardware that didn't pay off (the Wii U tablet, Kinect mandatory, etc.), this is the reason. The traditional console space is so low margin at this point that even something that "hits a home run" like the PS4 isn't a huge money maker.
^This. Despite what some gamers think, gaming has very thin profit margins. Right now, a company like Sony could could decimate their competitors and vastly outsell their products but the profits by the end of the generation would still be nothing to write home about. There is a reason Google and Amazon don't take hqrdcore gaming very seriously.
 

The Shogun

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Jul 24, 2014
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Honestly one of the most obvious moves they can make is selling the Spider Man rights back to Marvel.

Their last film underperformed both financially and critically and I don't see that trajectory changing much if at all with a Sinister Six film. The deal would essentially be pure profit and its better for them to sell now than if future films further decrease the value of the series.
 

Soulflarz

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Oct 16, 2012
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me thinks a guy known for some video of people being bored of Ridge Racer isn't a good idea as a CEO.

Anyway, how much money can a company lose.
Not sure to be honest, but that reminds me of how everyone always says nintendo loses ridiculous amounts and that theyre screwed...but then again, theyre sitting on enough money to last a LONG time.
 

Calamari41

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Jan 6, 2012
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Sure this happened after he became president but you can't put that on him.

Sony will hpefullyvsell their TV division and become a leaner company. I believe that's kaz's vision. This is likely the blast year Sony will post a net loss so WSJ is just hyping it for clicks.

I actually didn't know this. What type of insurance?
You didn't know that Sony sells insurance, much less that it is their most profitable division, and yet here you are arguing about Sony's financials. Ok.
 

Sho_Nuff82

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It's completely fine for Sony given their market position. Microsoft is the one who is more likely to pull out, if anything.

Stockholders for Microsoft have reason to believe that MS can do something better with that investment. MS' standard is Windows, Office, and now Azure, all which have very high profit margins. From their perspective, a segment that is treading water would be a real disappointment. By contrast, most of Sony's businesses are struggling, so from that perspective a unit that is treading water with strong brand awareness is just fine. This concept is referred to as opportunity cost; Microsoft's opportunity cost is higher than Sony's.
This is the most sane assessment of the gaming segment I've seen in ages on here. And it had to come from OT, of course.
 

Opiate

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Do keep in mind that for a company in Sony's position, the worst possible result is 2B in negative cash flow, which this result does not represent. It's ~460M in negative cash flow, unless there are other devaluations beside the mobile unit.

That doesn't make this a good thing at all, but it's better than losing 2B when they already have relatively low cash on hand given their debt levels. Essentially, what this news represents is Sony admitting that they're not going to be a big player in the mobile market a la Apple or Samsung or even HTC, and admitting that their mobile division is worth less as a result.
 

The Shogun

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Jul 24, 2014
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I don't agree with people saying Sony should continue focus on the TV division.

Its responsible for some of the largest losses they've incurred over the last 5 years.
 

Mononoke

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It's completely fine for Sony given their market position. Microsoft is the one who is more likely to pull out, if anything.

Stockholders for Microsoft have reason to believe that MS can do something better with that investment. MS' standard is Windows, Office, and now Azure, all which have very high profit margins. From their perspective, a segment that is treading water would be a real disappointment. By contrast, most of Sony's businesses are struggling, so from that perspective a unit that is treading water with strong brand awareness is just fine. This concept is referred to as opportunity cost; Microsoft's opportunity cost is higher than Sony's.
I guess I just don't understand the point. If Sony wasn't doing games, then all the billions they invest in it, go back to the company. Right now they throw out billions, and only barely make it back w/ little to no profit. So how does that benefit a stock holder, to basically have your company spend money, only to get the same amount back with no gains?

So basically, because their other divisions are doing poorly, a division that makes no money but breaks even is worth keeping around? Wouldn't the best option be to, I dunno...get rid of the failing division, as well as the divisions that only break even? And only focus on divisions that do make profit? I guess I don't understand business.

EDIT: Sorry, it's not your responsibility to educate me on this sort of thing. Didn't mean to bombard you with questions.
 

Demoehere

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May 18, 2014
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So at what point does a company decide that breaking even on a division is not worth it anymore? I mean even assuming the gaming division makes profit, from what I'm reading...the profit will never be huge. So why stick around? How does this model benefit stock holders?
Having a huge install base and market share is potential profit later on. Margins are low now but they will increase over time, manufacturing becomes cheaper and they release their big exclusives etc etc.
 

The Shogun

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Jul 24, 2014
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I guess I just don't understand the point. If Sony wasn't doing games, then all the billions they invest in it, go back to the company. Right now they throw out billions, and only barely make it back w/ little to no profit. So how does that benefit a stock holder, to basically have your company spend money, only to get the same amount back with no gains?

So basically, because their other divisions are doing poorly, a division that makes no money but breaks even is worth keeping around? Wouldn't the best option be to, I dunno...get rid of the failing division, as well as the divisions that only break even? And only focus on divisions that do make profit? I guess I don't understand business.
Because at least the money being invested there is coming back. Literally no other division is doing that besides Insurance and films to a degee.

if they invest that cash else where it may never come back. Their gaming division isnt a shining example of profits but it currently is at least a safe bet.
 

Mononoke

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Because at least the money being invested there is coming back. Literally no other division is doing that besides Insurance and films to a degee.

if they invest that cash else where it may never come back. Their gaming division isnt a shining example of profits but it currently is at least a safe bet.
Okay this makes more sense. Thanks for clarifying.

EDIT: The other posts about potential profit down the line makes sense. Opiate even said opportunity cost, so it was pretty clear. It just went over my head.
 

metalslimer

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Jun 9, 2012
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I guess I just don't understand the point. If Sony wasn't doing games, then all the billions they invest in it, go back to the company. Right now they throw out billions, and only barely make it back w/ little to no profit. So how does that benefit a stock holder, to basically have your company spend money, only to get the same amount back with no gains?

So basically, because their other divisions are doing poorly, a division that makes no money but breaks even is worth keeping around? Wouldn't the best option be to, I dunno...get rid of the failing division, as well as the divisions that only break even? And only focus on divisions that do make profit? I guess I don't understand business.

EDIT: Sorry, it's not your responsibility to educate me on this sort of thing. Didn't mean to bombard you with questions.
Well the gaming division will probably turn a profit, so it would be worth keeping around. In Sony's case though I think the point is there is no guarantee the money they spend would actually net them a higher profit margin than the gaming division unlike Microsoft where MS's gaming division is just a sink comparitively to something like Windows.
 

kmfdmpig

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Aug 19, 2007
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Honestly one of the most obvious moves they can make is selling the Spider Man rights back to Marvel.

Their last film underperformed both financially and critically and I don't see that trajectory changing much if at all with a Sinister Six film. The deal would essentially be pure profit and its better for them to sell now than if future films further decrease the value of the series.
I hated ASM2, but it was still profitable. Spider-Man is an asset that could earn them money for decades to come, so one film performing below their desires/receiving poor reviews likely won't change their thought process.

They can reboot again and again if needed so a quality decline seems more like a temporary glitch than a long term problem (see the jump in quality from Cap 1 to Cap 2 as an example of how to right the ship).
 

metalslimer

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I hated ASM2, but it was still profitable. Spider-Man is an asset that could earn them money for decades to come, so one film performing below their desires/receiving poor reviews likely won't change their thought process.

They can reboot again and again if needed so a quality decline seems more like a temporary glitch than a long term problem (see the jump in quality from Cap 1 to Cap 2 as an example of how to right the ship).
Well Sony seems all in on at least 2 more entries into this terrible series. I'm sure they will see falling profits from each of the next two as well.
 

Opiate

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I guess I just don't understand the point. If Sony wasn't doing games, then all the billions they invest in it, go back to the company. Right now they throw out billions, and only barely make it back w/ little to no profit. So how does that benefit a stock holder, to basically have your company spend money, only to get the same amount back with no gains?

So basically, because their other divisions are doing poorly, a division that makes no money but breaks even is worth keeping around? Wouldn't the best option be to, I dunno...get rid of the failing division, as well as the divisions that only break even? And only focus on divisions that do make profit? I guess I don't understand business.

EDIT: Sorry, it's not your responsibility to educate me on this sort of thing. Didn't mean to bombard you with questions.
So let's imagine a simple company that has 10 divisions that are all relatively independent of each other. Of those, about 6 are losing significant money, 1 is treading water, and 3 are making money. Now, that 1 treading water division isn't a good thing in absolute terms. However, it's way, way down the list of priorities to fix. First, they need to not only work on those other 6 units that are losing money, but work on them such that they go from significant money losers and turn them in to money makers. Maybe they scrap one of these divisions and make a whole new, different one in its place. A process like that -- even in our perfect, simple company -- would take years, and more likely decades, for a large firm working on 6 divisions. By the time they're done with that process, the "treading water" division will likely look completely different anyway, as technology moves very fast and who knows what a division will be doing in 15 years. Compared to the rest of the divisions in this particular company, a division which treads water is very low on the problem list.

As a different example, imagine a company which has 7 divisions, 5 of which are making significant profit, 1 of which is treading water, and 1 of which is losing money. Now, that losing money one would be the first on the list, but that "treading water" division would need to be pretty quickly addressed as well. Compared to the rest of the divisions in this particular company, a division which treads water is fairly high on the problem list.

Hope that helps explain the idea.
 

The Shogun

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Jul 24, 2014
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I hated ASM2, but it was still profitable. Spider-Man is an asset that could earn them money for decades to come, so one film performing below their desires/receiving poor reviews likely won't change their thought process.

They can reboot again and again if needed so a quality decline seems more like a temporary glitch than a long term problem (see the jump in quality from Cap 1 to Cap 2 as an example of how to right the ship).
True and Im not saying its a foolish decision if Sony hold on to it but personally I feel a sell to Marvel is the better route.

Each consecutive film is earning them less money. Thats not the direction you want to be headed in and does anyone feel a Sinister Six film will out gross an actual Spider Man film? The bulk of ASM2s cash was earned overseas where the studio recieves less profit. Domestically its gross is pretty terrible in comparison to what the franchise normally recieves.

I see both sides on this but a deal with Marvel would get them a major immediate boost of cash. At the very least a deal needs to be worked out for him to appear in Marvel films. Have Sony make the stand alone films but Marvel be allowed to use him for team up films like Avengers.
 
Jul 22, 2007
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Honestly one of the most obvious moves they can make is selling the Spider Man rights back to Marvel.

Their last film underperformed both financially and critically and I don't see that trajectory changing much if at all with a Sinister Six film. The deal would essentially be pure profit and its better for them to sell now than if future films further decrease the value of the series.
Even with it underperforming, it made $708 million in the box office and is easily in the top 10 box office successes Sony has. Marvel would have to pay a ludicrous price to pull that franchise out of Sony's money-desperate hands, seeing as even in failure it's still a money maker for a company in much need of them.

but then again, Sony needs to fix that franchise and i'm not sure they can. ASM2 was so bad I had to turn it off after about 30 minutes. I can't see them moving forward with the franchise unless the retool it in a big way, and even then they might have a spiderman fatigue issue to deal with.
 

MercuryLS

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Apr 21, 2007
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Sony needs to put more money into marketing, their Z line of phones are pretty great. They should be leading the Android ecosystem in unit sales.
 

Mononoke

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Dec 26, 2012
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So let's imagine a simple company that has 10 divisions that are all relatively independent of each other. Of those, about 6 are losing significant money, 1 is treading water, and 3 are making money. Now, that 1 treading water division isn't a good thing in absolute terms. However, it's way, way down the list of priorities to fix. First, they need to not only work on those other 6 units that are losing money, but work on them such that they go from significant money losers and turn them in to money makers. Maybe they scrap one of these divisions and make a whole new, different one in its place. A process like that -- even in our perfect, simple company -- would take years, and more likely decades, for a large firm working on 6 divisions. By the time they're done with that process, the "treading water" division will likely look completely different anyway, as technology moves very fast and who knows what a division will be doing in 15 years. Compared to the rest of the divisions in this particular company, a division which treads water is very low on the problem list.

As a different example, imagine a company which has 7 divisions, 5 of which are making significant profit, 1 of which is treading water, and 1 of which is losing money. Now, that losing money one would be the first on the list, but that "treading water" division would need to be pretty quickly addressed as well. Compared to the rest of the divisions in this particular company, a division which treads water is fairly high on the problem list.

Hope that helps explain the idea.
Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Thanks for explaining. I really appreciate you going out of your way to elaborate on that.
 

Cow Mengde

Banned
Dec 26, 2007
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I think a lot of people believe the gaming division is doing extremely well when it's not. It's doing fine, mind you, but the market PS4 has placed itself in is very low margin and thus the gaming division hasn't made a profit since the PS4 launched. Again, this doesn't mean the gaming division is a huge failure, it just means it isn't this smashing success in a sea of failures. If you want that division inside Sony, you're looking for their financial divisions. Their life insurance division is what's keeping the business afloat.
This. Seriously, people actually think the PS4 is a huge money maker? Give it some time and even the gaming division could start to lose money with a few bombs and funding vaporware. I think within 5 years Sony will be gone. This is a sinking ship and the holes just keeps getting bigger.
 

Calamari41

41 > 38
Jan 6, 2012
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I hated ASM2, but it was still profitable. Spider-Man is an asset that could earn them money for decades to come, so one film performing below their desires/receiving poor reviews likely won't change their thought process.

They can reboot again and again if needed so a quality decline seems more like a temporary glitch than a long term problem (see the jump in quality from Cap 1 to Cap 2 as an example of how to right the ship).
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but are they really all that profitable? Modern Spidey films seem to be good for about $700-$750 million worldwide. And falling. Now that's not bad by any means, but it's not what it used to be.

Anyway, after taking out the cut to distributors and theaters, I believe the studios tend to get about half of the worldwide take (again, please correct me if I'm wrong). This puts Sony's gross income from a Spider-Man film at $350-$375 million. Take out marketing (tens of millions) and production budget ($200 million for ASM2), and you're left with $100 million or so in profit. And also bear in mind that Sony no longer gets one red cent from any Spider-Man merchandise.

It seems to me that selling the Spider-Man film rights for a cool billion dollars would generate the same amount of "profit" as ten successful Spider-Man films. And they could probably get even more for it. If my numbers are close to correct (which, again, they may not be), that seems like a cut and dry business decision.
 

The Shogun

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Jul 24, 2014
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Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but are they really all that profitable? Modern Spidey films seem to be good for about $700-$750 million worldwide. And falling. Now that's not bad by any means, but it's not what it used to be.

Anyway, after taking out the cut to distributors and theaters, I believe the studios tend to get about half of the worldwide take (again, please correct me if I'm wrong). This puts Sony's gross income from a Spider-Man film at $350-$375 million. Take out marketing (tens of millions) and production budget ($200 million for ASM2), and you're left with $100 million or so in profit. And also bear in mind that Sony no longer gets one red cent from any Spider-Man merchandise.

It seems to me that selling the Spider-Man film rights for a cool billion dollars would generate the same amount of "profit" as ten successful Spider-Man films. And they could probably get even more for it. If my numbers are close to correct (which, again, they may not be), that seems like a cut and dry business decision.
Yep agree 100%. The fact they get no merch rights as well is huge.

A sell off to Marvel is honestly the best route. Their next film in the franchise is Sinister Six which won't out gross ASM2 and ASM3 has been delayed. They can't reboot right away imo as that would cause further consumer confusion and franchise fatigue.

Sony is not in a good place currently with the Spider Man franchise
 

Azih

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MS isn't going to get out of Xbox because gaming is pretty much one of the most common thing people do with their computing devices and MS can make the case that they need to be there to their shareholders.

Sony... well Sony has a lot of problems but the main problem is that hardware is a commodity now with low margins (aside from the one very notable exception of Apple and some Samsung phones). The money to be made from technology is now in Software as Services and that is a game being played by the heavyweight incumbents of Google and Microsoft. It's just a very very different competitive environment. I think PSN is the only Sony success in that field.
 

slit

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Why do I get the feeling that those that want Sony to sell Spiderman, are more worried more about their "Spiderman franchise dreams/fantasies" then what's best for Sony. LOL
 
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