• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • The Politics forum has been nuked. Please do not bring political discussion to the rest of the site, or you will be removed. Thanks.

Business Sony invests $250 million in Epic Games

J_Gamer.exe

Member
May 4, 2020
777
3,723
410
Obviously deal like this was in discussion for long time now....so we should take all epic quotes about next gen consoles with a pinch of salt

You can almost hear the collective sigh of relief in this thread...

Oh thank god ps5 isn't revolutionary or a masterpiece of design and doesn't have a god tier ssd and io etc etc.

Phew.

If only other devs weren't saying similar....

It's still all those things and things tim said were 100% right.
 
Aug 28, 2019
4,638
9,525
650
www.instagram.com
Thing is, we don't know that that's true either. There is no way Sony engineered their SSD the way they did without a damn good reason. It clearly took up a decent portion of the cost of the system that could have been allocated to silicon for the GPU/CPU. So we know Sony made those choices/tradeoffs for a reason. I'm sure they worked closely with Epic on the tech, they even said as much when the demo was revealed. You're conflating financial investments with bad faith statements out of assumption. It's certainly possible that's the case but the bottom line is none of us really know. Epic is on record as saying the demo at that level was only possible through the PS5 SSD speed for reasons of how the technology works and loads assets directly into RAM on a per frame basis, or something akin to that. If it turns out in a year or two that they can do the same or better on the Xbox Series X then we will know it was a straight up lie. If the tech bears out their statements in the future, then they didn't. Unfortunately it's going to be a decent wait.

We all know Sony put a great deal of focus on their SSD I/O solution, but my issue in this constantly being mentioned is that some folks who do it, do such with the accompanying baggage of downplaying Microsoft's solution or comparing them apples-for-apples while ignoring the specific (and intentional) differences in their approaches for leverage by adjacent technology divisions in their respective companies. I think that sets up a bad narrative and the fact there's Sweeney out here on Twitter acting as though the XSX doesn't even exist when it comes to next-gen storage I/O solutions kind of does (through no fault of his own) feed a reaffirmation to some fans who unfortunately do utilize that in bad faith arguments regarding the next-gen platforms.

So this news coming to light about the investment of $250 million by Sony, at least that clears the air a bit on a very strong motivating factor that most likely (assuming Occam's Razor theory) be at some root to Sweeney's statements the past month or two. And some of his statements, like saying the UE5 demo would only be possible on PS5, well now we can see they have a lot of PR fluff built into them even if in some ways they are technically true.

I actually crunched through some numbers to arrive at this conclusion. For that flying segment, let's say they are streaming in 8K texture assets raw/uncompressed with a new texture asset per frame. A raw 8K texture is approximately 99.5328 MB. At 30 FPS, that is 2.985 GB/s. Which, clearly, is larger than XSX's raw SSD bandwidth (2.4 GB/s)...but this is where the tech demo part comes into play.

How much genuine game logic is running in that flying segment? Virtually none. There are no enemies, probably not much in the way of physics, no game mechanics at play etc. Since on PS5 the dedicated processor in the I/O block has DMA to the system RAM, that also means when it is transferring data from storage to RAM (or vice-versa), the CPU and GPU have to wait. That's a tradeoff in a hUMA architecture design (it's also a reason the I/O block has the cache coherency engines and is using a smaller SRAM cache instead of larger DRAM cache (speed/latency)). But in what real gameplay scenario do you expect the system to spend an entire 30 consecutive frames simply streaming in 8K texture data from storage to RAM to then get crunched by the GPU? It's not going to happen!

Now with that example just above, the PS5 would actually be streaming in each of those 8K texture assets raw well efore it's SSD actually hits its bandwidth limit, which is why in that scenario you'd still be able to have the GPU work with the texture data in RAM even if it's being quickly streamed in, it'd just be the I/O block and GPU alternating access along the memory bus. But that's even assuming the flying section in the UE5 demo was streaming in unique 8K raw textures EVERY FRAME, which is very likely wasn't. Remember the statue room section? Each of those statues used the same texture and poly model, but that doesn't mean you need the SSD to stream in duplicate texture and poly model data for each statue; you just stream it in once and have it sit in RAM, the GPU is doing the brunt rendering work there (just like in any other case involving visual calculations and output to the screen).

Assuming XvA has most of the features of PS5's SSD I/O (and at least all of the key features; already discussed that cache coherency engines are not necessarily "key" features since those are more due to a requirement specifically of Sony's design to ensure it works properly), for recreating that flying segment in an actual gameplay scenario, it should have no problem doing it at the visual fidelity of PS5 considering there are other things XSX can leverage to make up for specific parts of the pipeline, via GPU ML texture upscaling. More importantly though is that one thing MS have consistently mentioned regarding XvA is high granularity in specifically choosing ONLY the texture asset actually required; Sony's solution is obviously faster in sheer numbers but in this specific area seems to have less a focus on granular/selective load targeting of specific texture data (or portions of texture data) to stream to memory, it favors a different approach good in its own way however.

Investing $250 Million into a company has to come with some benefit, am I right? LOL I don't think that's farfetched at all. The extra step in claiming it was specifically a marketing deal, a secret one at that, is a little farfetched to me. The claim that EPIC was holding on showing the demo on Series X doesn't make dollars and sense to me.

Yeah, I think it's the perspective into it from this context where the merit comes into play. It's a bit ridiculous to say Sony paid Epic money for the demo on PS5, as you say. Especially seeing they have held demos in the past on Sony consoles as far back as PS2.

But this investment from Sony into Epic likely was at least in talks well before the demo came out, and the PR Sweeney's done for the platform post its release is certainly a good perk due to it, even if he is touching on some elements of truth to a decent extent.
 
Last edited:

CatLady

Member
Jun 12, 2018
4,432
14,594
700
It's interesting to note that a certain group of Sony fans , are always going on about numerous Xbox conspiracy theories, one of which is Digital Foundry are Xbox fan boys. Just try to imagine the magnitude of rage & fury that would erupt from those people if it came out Microsoft funneled $250M into Eurogamer/DF.

Yet we see numerous Sony people in this thread are quite content to gloss over and/or rationalize the $250M Sony sank into Epic while Sweeney was lavishing inordinate and highly suspect praise on the PS5 and denying any kind of monetary deal between Sony and Epic.
 
Jan 16, 2020
5,828
22,187
855
It's interesting to note that a certain group of Sony fans , are always going on about numerous Xbox conspiracy theories, one of which is Digital Foundry are Xbox fan boys. Just try to imagine the magnitude of rage & fury that would erupt from those people if it came out Microsoft funneled $250M into Eurogamer/DF.

Yet we see numerous Sony people in this thread are quite content to gloss over and/or rationalize the $250M Sony sank into Epic while Sweeney was lavishing inordinate and highly suspect praise on the PS5 and denying any kind of monetary deal between Sony and Epic.

Yes Sony paid $250M for Tim to have twitter battles
 
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: B_Boss

Saaleh

Member
Jul 3, 2020
148
207
240
I guess thats why the sony 1st party games didn't even come close to the UE5 demo. Just you wait guys..i know PS5 is weaker than the XSX on paper, but it's.... super effecient,...its got cool audio features...its got cool controller features....and just......it's.... revolutionary!!!

UE5, ratchet rift apart and horzion 2 are just a taste of what is coming and they are a solid evidence of that tech. Look at inFAmous Second Son then look at Ghost, wow factor will be greater than that in the next generation of playstation. While series X will lack such hype simply because they are limited by a service based subscription and limited by last gen architecture. You like it or not PS5 and its exclusives are revolutionary in terms of gaming development.
 

Stuart360

Member
Sep 9, 2018
10,064
24,473
770
Sony fans right now -



'Nothing to see here, its a good bit of business by Sony, it means nothing. All Epics shilling is above board -

 

Saaleh

Member
Jul 3, 2020
148
207
240
You're new here. But don't do this.
Aplogies if i did something considered wrong here :messenger_grinning_smiling:. I'm open to suppress my thoughts so that i adpat to the community. I keep getting banned from forums without anyone telling me what i did wrong. So, point at my mistakes (i.e. any red lines) so that i don't repeat it ^^.
 
Last edited:

itsjustJEFF

Member
Apr 12, 2018
1,115
1,214
435
Yeah, I think it's the perspective into it from this context where the merit comes into play. It's a bit ridiculous to say Sony paid Epic money for the demo on PS5, as you say. Especially seeing they have held demos in the past on Sony consoles as far back as PS2.

But this investment from Sony into Epic likely was at least in talks well before the demo came out, and the PR Sweeney's done for the platform post its release is certainly a good perk due to it, even if he is touching on some elements of truth to a decent extent.
I'm actually pretty interested in who else Epic has reached out to for investment possibilities. There's another 1.8 Billion that they were funded, I wonder who they are. I also wonder what Sony is getting out of this deal. Besides, the possibilities of getting a cut from that Fortnite pie, EGS. I personally think it was in part to get a hold of that movie tech and now with UE5 revealed, that nanite and lumin tech.
 

Hal.

Member
Jan 22, 2020
148
273
340
UE5, ratchet rift apart and horzion 2 are just a taste of what is coming and they are a solid evidence of that tech. Look at inFAmous Second Son then look at Ghost, wow factor will be greater than that in the next generation of playstation. While series X will lack such hype simply because they are limited by a service based subscription and limited by last gen architecture. You like it or not PS5 and its exclusives are revolutionary in terms of gaming development.

I dunno man, take a step back. It's marketing BS. The Ratchet trailer in particular.

I'd try not to get overly hyped.

Fingers crossed Sony will go back to actual gameplay at some point like on the PS3 instead of woke walking sims, but we'll see how that goes.
 

itsjustJEFF

Member
Apr 12, 2018
1,115
1,214
435
The Epic Games store will be the exclusive PC store for PlayStation Studio games.
I can absolutely see this happening! If having PS exclusives on the EGS raises profits and elevate the store, that'll only help them recoup more of that investment.
 

itsjustJEFF

Member
Apr 12, 2018
1,115
1,214
435
I dunno man, take a step back. It's marketing BS. The Ratchet trailer in particular.

I'd try not to get overly hyped.

Fingers crossed Sony will go back to actual gameplay at some point like on the PS3 instead of woke walking sims, but we'll see how that goes.
Did you only watch the 1st part of that demo? Just the trailer part... cause If i'm not mistaken, there was like a 2 minute gameplay demo right after. Maybe you should take a step back?
 

HeisenbergFX4

Member
Dec 28, 2016
4,551
29,337
950
Some Beach
It's interesting to note that a certain group of Sony fans , are always going on about numerous Xbox conspiracy theories, one of which is Digital Foundry are Xbox fan boys. Just try to imagine the magnitude of rage & fury that would erupt from those people if it came out Microsoft funneled $250M into Eurogamer/DF.

Yet we see numerous Sony people in this thread are quite content to gloss over and/or rationalize the $250M Sony sank into Epic while Sweeney was lavishing inordinate and highly suspect praise on the PS5 and denying any kind of monetary deal between Sony and Epic.

I am one of those Sony fans first and foremost but I can promise you there are reasons why MS flies Digital Foundry out to get first looks and deep dives of their systems :)
 

Hal.

Member
Jan 22, 2020
148
273
340
Did you only watch the 1st part of that demo? Just the trailer part... cause If i'm not mistaken, there was like a 2 minute gameplay demo right after. Maybe you should take a step back?

Steady on famalam!

The actual gameplay part was more a reference to the slow walking exposition sections that are now in basically every PS game...

As for Ratchet which people keep banging on about showing off the SSD, a scripted demo with controlled rift mechanics that allegedly show "other dimensions" or whatever it was without loaded is basically just bs and I have yet to be convinced.

It's like when everyone went mental over the Killzone ps3 demo. It was 100% obvious that it wasn't actual gameplay judging from the general behaviour of the camera and the movement!
 

Stuart360

Member
Sep 9, 2018
10,064
24,473
770
I am one of those Sony fans first and foremost but I can promise you there are reasons why MS flies Digital Foundry out to get first looks and deep dives of their systems :)
Because they are a tech site that a lot of gamers follow?, or maybe to give them a good old ticking off for how many times they proclaimed the PS4 having the better versions of games, in the pre OneX days?.
 

itsjustJEFF

Member
Apr 12, 2018
1,115
1,214
435
Steady on famalam!

The actual gameplay part was more a reference to the slow walking exposition sections that are now in basically every PS game...

As for Ratchet which people keep banging on about showing off the SSD, a scripted demo with controlled rift mechanics that allegedly show "other dimensions" or whatever it was without loaded is basically just bs and I have yet to be convinced.

It's like when everyone went mental over the Killzone ps3 demo. It was 100% obvious that it wasn't actual gameplay judging from the general behaviour of the camera and the movement!
Every demo that any of these guys show is scripted and is a vertical slice. It's all marketing. Everything we saw at the PS event was a scripted demo. Everything we'll see at the Xbox event will be a scripted demo. Even the God of War demo, they did on stage at E3, was scripted. They know exactly what was going to happen. They practiced that run over and over and made sure it happened exactly like they wanted to.
 
Jan 16, 2020
5,828
22,187
855
Steady on famalam!

The actual gameplay part was more a reference to the slow walking exposition sections that are now in basically every PS game...

As for Ratchet which people keep banging on about showing off the SSD, a scripted demo with controlled rift mechanics that allegedly show "other dimensions" or whatever it was without loaded is basically just bs and I have yet to be convinced.

It's like when everyone went mental over the Killzone ps3 demo. It was 100% obvious that it wasn't actual gameplay judging from the general behaviour of the camera and the movement!


 

CatLady

Member
Jun 12, 2018
4,432
14,594
700
Because they are a tech site that a lot of gamers follow?, or maybe to give them a good old ticking off for how many times they proclaimed the PS4 having the better versions of games, in the pre OneX days?.

Well they weren't fanboys back then, they were a completely fair and unbiased professional tech site.

They turned into raging Xbox fanboys when the OneX came out and their stupid comparison videos showed the OneX performed better and had better graphics than the Pro.
 

Dory16

Banned
Nov 15, 2013
1,047
1,506
770
Interesting development. We learned a few things. First of all, Tim Sweeney and Epic are no longer neutral in the competition between the console manufacturers for market dominance. By accepting this deal, they have tied their financial well-being to Sony's. It's now in their direct interest for the PS5 to be as successful as possible so their new shareholder will be content and not interfere with any other goals they have and it's in Sony's interest for Fortnite and the UE tech to be as widely adopted as possible. None of that is illegal or dishonest except the part where Tim Sweeney was calling the PS5 revolutionary and comparing it to high end PCs at the same time that he was negotiating to raise as much capital from them as possible. I don't know what that did to the share price of each company but it vaguely sounds to me like something that the Consumer protection agency and even the SEC may want to review.

It also raises the question of where that leaves Microsoft which was probably already a bigger client of Epic than Sony before all this (as far game engine tech is concerned). If I'm Phil Spencer, beyond the raw economics of it which I have analysed above, I can no longer view Epic and Tim Sweeney as a trustworthy partner or supplier. The fact that XGS has enormous reliance on the Unreal Engine is a weakness for Microsoft as of today, no matter how nice Hellblade or the next Obsidian RPG look. You can no longer blindly assume that you are getting the best that the engine can offer for your money and also you are partly making your competitor more successful just by running your business. This is something that you do when you don't have a choice (MS using Blu ray, Sony using Azure) but not when you do. It's exactly why Sony did everything they could to have Amazon as their cloud infrastructure partner before turning to Microsoft.

The logical effect of this is XGS should start exploring and if possible adopting alternatives to UE. Some of the disadvantages of those alternatives now are offset by the fact that they are reducing Xbox's reliance on Epic and this warrants a complete reconsideration. If that Slipspace engine has really costed as much as it is rumored to develop, may be it is up to the task and you start spreading its adoption in order to diversify ASAP. Just my 2 cents.
 
Last edited:
Jan 16, 2020
5,828
22,187
855
Tbf the slow walk is in most games nowadays but cinematic PS games in particular...

Nothing fucks me off more than a drugged/drunk/dream section

Holy fuck just wait til I get my new thread privileges and ima go ham on this shit

You're seriously not complaining about the 2? second slow walking in that 2-minute demo are you?

Help me here. I'm trying to understand what the issue was in that gameplay packed demo
 
Last edited:

Ozzy Onya A2Z

Member
Apr 16, 2012
10,227
4,326
1,100
Melbourne, Australia
In David Attenborough voice -

And here we see the similarities in gaming of that from lobbying politicians to primage an outcome. Unbeknownst to the consumers, Sony truly locked Epic in their back pocket for their presentation gala.
 
  • LOL
Reactions: Hal.
Jan 16, 2020
5,828
22,187
855
Interesting development. We learned a few things. First of all, Tim Sweeney and Epic are no longer neutral in the competition between the console manufacturers for market dominance. By accepting this deal, they have tied their financial well-being to Sony's. It's now in their direct interest for the PS5 to be as successful as possible so their new shareholder will be content and not interfere with any other goals they have and it's in Sony's interest for Fortnite and the UE tech to be as widely adopted as possible. None that is illegal or dishonest except the part where Tim Sweeney was calling the PS5 revolutionary and comparing it to high end PCs at the same time that he was negotiating to raise as much capital from them as possible. I don't know what that did to the share price of each company but it vaguely sounds to me like something that the Consumer protection agency and even the SEC may want to review.

It also raises the question of where that leaves Microsoft which was probably already a bigger client of Epic than Sony before all this (as far game engine tech is concerned). If I'm Phil Spencer, beyond the raw economics of it which I have analysed above, I can no longer view Epic and Tim Sweeney as a trustworthy partner or supplier. The fact that XGS has enormous reliance on the Unreal Engine is a weakness for Microsoft as of today, no matter how nice Hellblade or the next Obsidian RPG look. You can no longer blindly assume that you are getting the best that the engine can offer for your money and also you are partly making your competitor more successful just by running your business. This is something that you do when you don't have a choice (MS using Blu ray, Sony using Azure) but not when you do. It's exactly why Sony did everything they could to have Amazon as their cloud infrastructure partner before turning to Microsoft.

The logical effect of this is XGS should start exploring and if possible adopting alternatives to UE. Some of the disadvantages of those alternatives now are offset by the fact that they are reducing Xbox's reliance on Epic and this warrants a complete reconsideration. If that Slipspace engine has really costed as much as it is rumored to develop, may be it up to the task and you start spreading its adoption in order to diversify ASAP. Just my 2 cents.

This has to be a parody post haha

They have a 1.4% stake. Chill
 
  • Like
Reactions: GHG and CamHostage
Jan 16, 2020
5,828
22,187
855
The size of Sony's stake is irrelevant to the points I have made. The principle and timing of Sony's investment are.

The steps you people go through to downplay the PS5s strengths

And yes the size of the stake is relevent if you're going to talk about how much control Sony has over Epic
 
Last edited:
  • Like
  • LOL
Reactions: Snake29 and CatLady

CamHostage

Member
Sep 30, 2004
7,006
2,153
1,660
Interesting development. We learned a few things. First of all, Tim Sweeney and Epic are no longer neutral in the competition between the console manufacturers for market dominance. By accepting this deal, they have tied their financial well-being to Sony's....

Jeez, guy, I know $250 mil seems like a lot to you and me, but to Epic, that's barely 2 months of Fortnite profit (and that math is derived from Fortnite's bank last year; in 2018, it was making almost 30% more annually, and with gamers home with COVID, 2020 could bust the old record.) The estimated net worth of the company is above $18 billion.

And as a bunch of people have mentioned, Sony the conglomerate has a lot of interest in a company like Epic beyond just thumbing its nose at Microsoft by moneyhatting some superior version of UE5 for PlayStation.

From the press release of this topic we are discussing,

"Through our investment, we will explore opportunities for further collaboration with Epic to delight and bring value to consumers and the industry at large, not only in games, but also across the rapidly evolving digital entertainment landscape,” said Kenichiro Yoshida, Chairman, President and CEO, Sony Corporation.​
 
Last edited:

Dory16

Banned
Nov 15, 2013
1,047
1,506
770
Jeez, guy, I know $250 mil seems like a lot to you and me, but to Epic, that's barely 2 months of Fortnite profit (and that math is derived from Fortnite's bank last year; in 2018, it was making almost 30% more annually, and with gamers home with COVID, 2020 could bust the old record.)

And as a bunch of people have mentioned, Sony the conglomerate has a lot of interest in a company like Epic beyond just thumbing its nose at Microsoft by moneyhatting some superior version of UE5 for PlayStation.

From the press release of this topic we are discussing,

"Through our investment, we will explore opportunities for further collaboration with Epic to delight and bring value to consumers and the industry at large, not only in games, but also across the rapidly evolving digital entertainment landscape,” said Kenichiro Yoshida, Chairman, President and CEO, Sony Corporation.​
Just to be clear, you are telling me that Epic is still neutral in the console race despite Sony being its shareholder because they are selling a lot of fortnite skins?