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[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Helped Blu-Ray win the format war... had AMAZING High rated exclusives,came out a year after the 360,cost more and still ended up in 2nd place behind the wii. Not 2 shabby I say...

TBF, 360 number reports ceased before PS3's, so we don't have an exact LTD on it. But from where it stands, PS3 only managed a couple extra million more in sales, it's effectively within a margin of error, and that is with considering it was in many more markets than 360 which, by that logic, it should've had an even larger gulf between the two in LTD sales.

Then consider the fact that they still incurred losses for so long because of the high BOMs, saw lower attach rates, and had to spend a lot more in R&D, marketing and (presumed) marketing deals and financially, total PS3 lifetime sales did not overcome the losses incurred. So in that sense, it was still a pyrrhic victory.

Both PS3 and 360 had highly rated exclusives that gen so that's a no-brainer, and Blu-Ray was one of the chief reasons it came out a year behind 360 (Cell being the other). PS3's price was only massively beyond 360's until around 2009, once they did the revision. That's about when, on average, PS3 and 360 were priced similarly on the high-end. 360 had the Arcade edition unit on the low-end but I dunno how popular that maintained given the laughable amount of storage you got on the thing.

Overall yes PS3 did help Blu-Ray out, but I'd say it was nowhere to the level PS2 helped DVD become the mainstream format. I'd also argue as a mainstream format, Blu-Ray has provided less returns for the investment compared to DVD; DVD didn't have to compete with streaming right as it was coming into proliferation.

 

[June]

Throughout the years I keep seeing people bring it up like it's something that magically fell from the sky or Sony flipping a switch and 4GB became 8 overnight.

Well I find it very telling that no one predictaed it. Everyone was saying 4gb. 8gb was like big surprise that people just assumed would be too much and too expensive to be included. Then only a couple years later the narrative began switching and 8gb was a pitiful amount. It just seems people are always over estimating these things

As for the $399 price I don't see it being doable, because Sony as hell won't be using only 8GB so there goes maybe 2x the cost (more lik 1.7-1.8x) on memory.

It's been 7 years since ps4. Has ram not gone down in price a good amount?
Also how you much ram do you expect in the new console?

All things considered I'm thinking $499 retail, perhaps $50 margin for the retailers, Sony will eat $50-80 loss for packaging, shipping, storage, etc etc.

Do you think Sony was okay with this price point from the beginning? Or it's just something that they had to go with due to problems?

Because like I said, price has been so damn important these few gens that I feel like both companies would be aggresively trying to hit that 399$ target

 

[StreetsofBeige]

MS and Sony arent going to eat any costs. Those days of subsidizing $200 per unit and hoping to make it all back on software is long gone. That was 360/PS3 launch years almost 15 years ago.

Stores typically breakeven on consoles too. They make money off games and all the knick knacks like controllers, extra cables, digital currency cards an such. Or you're EB, trying to float the entire company on stupid shit like Funko toys and Monopoly: Call of Duty Black Ops Edition.

I see both systems at $500 US if they are close in power. And if that MS Lockhart is true, it'll be cheaper at around $350.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

MS and Sony arent going to eat any costs. Those days of subsidizing $200 per unit and hoping to make it all back on software is long gone. That was 360/PS3 launch years almost 15 years ago.

Stores typically breakeven on consoles too. They make money off games and all the knick knacks like controllers, extra cables, digital currency cards an such. Or you're EB, trying to float the entire company on stupid shit like Funko toys and Monopoly: Call of Duty Black Ops Edition.

I see both systems at $500 US if they are close in power. And if that MS Lockhart is true, it'll be cheaper at around $350.

TBH I see both PS5 and XSX at $500 even if they aren't close in power. Keep in mind: the early adopters are in for these systems at launch regardless of price.

Supposing the "weaker" system ends up being PS5, $499 doesn't actually hurt them even if XSX is also $499. PS has the stronger brand name and wider global reach. In markets where Xbox isn't even present, Sony can technically set the price at whatever they want and still move their units, at least for a little while. Same applies with U.S, U.K and other markets Xbox has presence in.

For launch, anyone who wants a PS5 is gonna buy a PS5. Anyone who wants an XSX is gonna buy an XSX. Anyone who wants both is gonna buy both. PS has the goodwill and brand power to sell strongly price-matched to Xbox even if it ends up being the "weaker" of the two systems. And since it's launch, you might as well go with that premium price because the hardcore have no problem buying in at launch at that price.

On Sony's end it'd take something drastic like a weak launch lineup AND pricing similar to XSX to start convincing some of those PS5-only purchasers to consider XSX instead. That's an internal factor though, and something I think they more than have under control. Externally, XSX would have to have a notably stronger launch lineup to probably even convince PS5-only purchasers to consider going PS5 & XSX around launch time. And for regions where Xbox isn't even really present, MS would have to increase marketing and units into those locations anyway. Depending on just how dominant PS is in those places, even a notably better launch lineup alone probably won't be enough for XSX to at least consider PS5-only people there to go PS5 & XSX.

Where it probably could be a bigger issue for Sony is if, in certain key foreign markets, Xcloud ends up making a big splash. In particular, markets where consoles may not even be a particular priority, even if PS has majority marketshere. Japan would be one example. If Xcloud makes inroads in those markets, and consoles aren't necessarily the focal gaming market, that can impact PS5. Even supposing XSX pulled away in the first few months over PS5 in, say, the U.S, if PS5 sales are very strong in other markets and (more importantly) software revenue is strong in those locations and overall, Sony wouldn't feel much a need to drop PS5's price in the U.S. But Xcloud encroaching on would-be PS5 sales and revenue could take away that cushion.

Worst-Case Scenario: both systems priced at $499 but PS5 notably "weaker", strong sales for both at the start but XSX starts pulling away in U.S and U.K. PS5 still dominating in foreign markets but Xcloud adoption starts encroaching on bottom-line. In that situation I can see Sony start doing a "soft" price drop effectively to $450 but bundle a game with the system physically or digitally. So it'd still effectively be $499 but have a free game included. Soft price drop primarily for U.S and U.K markets, maybe with gradual spread to other markets over time depending on where they assess competition with something like Xcloud.

But that's a worst-case scenario I can picture. There's no reason for Sony not to release at $499 considering the worst-case scenario would require a good deal of lucky factors to play out for MS and I don't think every single one will play out exactly as needed. The only other thing that could create issues is Lockhart. I don't see Lockhart releasing at launch, maybe in 2021 is more likely. What MS could really do to screw up things for Sony, tho, would be to time Lockhart to release as Sony does a soft price drop on PS5 (IF things come to that). So basically, Sony "drops" PS5 to $450 effectively, but then MS releases Lockhart for, say, $299. It'd basically be a year old by that time anyway, marginal changes at most to the spec, a year later release could afford a launch for Lockhart at $299. That would be a nightmare situation for PS5 but, again, that's just me entertaining a worst-case scenario.

Most Probable-Case Scenario: both systems launch at $499 but PS5 is notably "weaker". Strong sales for both at the start but MS software offering as a whole simply on-par with Sony's (1st and 3rd party). XSX makes soft dents in some foreign markets but not enough to overturn PS marketshare there. Sales of PS5 and XSX in U.S and U.K fluctuate back-and-forth for a while, maybe XSX takes a slight lead overall in first year. Xcloud sees modest adoption in many locations, very strong adoption in a handful of smaller mobile-oriented markets, but not to a level where PS5 sales are adversely affected so at most PS5 sees small dips in some of these markets. This would allow PS5 to maintain $499 in foreign markets and maybe consider soft price drops in places like U.S and U.K if XSX starts mounting a notable longer-term lead in these places.

As for Lockhart in this scenario? I don't see it coming out this year tbh. Ideally I think it should be a discless version of XSX with a smaller SSD and maybe a few software features cut but coming in a bit cheaper, but I doubt the drives are anything more than $25 and they'd be saving what, maybe $40 going with a cheaper drive? Why take losses on that?

-

If anything this should just show how strong the PS brand is globally and how much work MS has cut out for themselves to effectively challenge it. They have the means and focus to do so now, but they gotta deliver the results. I don't see the worst-case scenario playing out unless Sony just really drops the ball, particularly in terms of software, and that's HONESTLY mainly if the software takes too long. But gaming tastes can be fickle and it's always a bit unpredictable where majority of tastes will go.

 

[Shin]

It's been 7 years since ps4. Has ram not gone down in price a good amount?
Also how you much ram do you expect in the new console?

It's a roller coaster, latest news was that it's expected to go up for the coming year or months (there's thread about it dating 1-3 weeks back).
IIRC one of the benefits of clam-shell mode is that the power draw for E.g. 16GB (8GB on each side) is the same as 8GB since the same pins/wiring is used.
16GB for the system and 4GB DDR4L for OS seems more than enough, BSD is a fork? of Linux, it's less layered than Windows/Game Core from my understanding.

Do you think Sony was okay with this price point from the beginning? Or it's just something that they had to go with due to problems?
Because like I said, price has been so damn important these few gens that I feel like both companies would be aggresively trying to hit that 399$ target

It's an easier sale if both do it, back then there was this atmosphere in the air that both would, 1 did while the other ricky rolled them hard lmao.
Sony was right to charge $399 for the console, because what was/is inside does not warrant $499 like Microsoft did, this time around it is state of the art parts.
This part of the article I don't agree with, because that doesn't seem viable at all of how a large collective of designers tackle a system.

They know from the initial design phase approx how much everything should/must cost from the marketing department.
If there's a decision to be made then it's definitely not one where half of the system will be tossed out of the window and they'll start anew

Rough example of costs since not much changes of what's inside of the box.

Using this as a quick example: https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/gddr6-significantly-more-expensive-than-gddr5.html
8GB GDDR5 was $88 on the IHS Research image, 8GB GDDR6 would be about $93 +- (goes well with what Guru3D reported, let's just assume for the sake of discussion as these prices aren't what platform holders pay).
Standard Blu-Ray drive replaced by UHD ($28 ---> $34, I looked it up long ago when doing math about what shit costs when Sony opted not to include a UHD in PS4/Pro).
GPU/CPU most likely won't change much in price and more long the year/node gains, plus best price/performance AMD can/could offer, etc etc.
That'll put you at a BoM of maybe $472, not too shabby from the $450? that's being reported by Bloomberg (keep in mind I used RAM prices that are meant for smaller orders and not what Sony might pay).

Lastly as far as I know and see around the web, Nikkei, WSJ and Bloomberg tend to know their corporate/financial news.

 

[009EspadaSageJay]

The People shooting down the bloomberg article and the leaks from the source code are literally ignoring the facts the people who are divulging all this info either work very high up in the company or owns a incredible amount of shares to have this info. Random people who work near the bottom or middle will not have any knowledge about these types of details.

Sony Is Struggling With PlayStation 5 Price Due to Costly Parts

Scarce components have pushed the manufacturing costs for Sony Corp.’s next PlayStation to around $450 per unit, forcing a difficult price-setting decision in its battle with Microsoft Corp., according to people with knowledge of the matter.

www.bloomberg.com

 

[pawel86ck]

MS and Sony arent going to eat any costs. Those days of subsidizing $200 per unit and hoping to make it all back on software is long gone. That was 360/PS3 launch years almost 15 years ago.

I see both systems at $500 US if they are close in power. And if that MS Lockhart is true, it'll be cheaper at around $350.

500$ for both consoles sounds possible, but if MS will launch 12TF and Sony 30-50% weaker console (8-9TF) at the same price then it should be extremely interesting battle.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

500$ for both consoles sounds possible, but if MS will launch 12TF and Sony 30-50% weaker console (8-9TF) at the same price then it should be extremely interesting battle.

Madz lol

 

[Kagey K]

The People shooting down the bloomberg article and the leaks from the source code are literally ignoring the facts the people who are divulging all this info either work very high up in the company or owns a incredible amount of shares to have this info. Random people who work near the bottom or middle will not have any knowledge about these types of details.

Sony Is Struggling With PlayStation 5 Price Due to Costly Parts

Scarce components have pushed the manufacturing costs for Sony Corp.’s next PlayStation to around $450 per unit, forcing a difficult price-setting decision in its battle with Microsoft Corp., according to people with knowledge of the matter.

www.bloomberg.com

A lot of crow is going to be ate by some people in the next few months. I’m just interested in seeing who has to sit down at the table and ask for someone to pass them the salt.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

TBH I see both PS5 and XSX at $500 even if they aren't close in power. Keep in mind: the early adopters are in for these systems at launch regardless of price.

You know, the entire "Just sell at a high price for 1 year and then cut it by 100 dollars afterwards" was never something that was considered proven.

It is just a fantasy scenario dreamed up in game forums, in order to justify making the console as powerful as possible. Basically the same fantasy as "inflation!" or "1000 dollar phones" that kept making the rounds.

Basically, game console enthusiasts want powerful machines, and knowing their desire does NOT make marketing reality, it was necessarily to fabricated self-hypnotizing lies that justify the impossible.

The whole "consoles sell out at launch anyway, so why not just raise the price by $100 and cut the price 1 year later" is one such fantasy. One that had been repeated so often that some have started to believe it. Same as "Inflation means 500 dollars is cheap!" And "People buy new 1000 dollar phones every year".

Lies, all of them. But it seems many wanted to be lied to so badly that they make up lies to deceive themselves.

 

[bhunachicken]

I imagine if the PS5 is over £450 in the UK some gamers will complain about the price.

Well, the PS1 was released at £299 in 1995:

(source: https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation/inflation-calculator)

 

[Kagey K]

I imagine if the PS5 is over £450 in the UK some gamers will complain about the price.

Well, the PS1 was released at £299 in 1995:

(source: https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation/inflation-calculator)

It always fun to talk about inflation and if this was X back when, but when you see your wage not match inflation, it might not be an easy answer anymore.

 

[reconminicon]

I imagine if the PS5 is over £450 in the UK some gamers will complain about the price.

Well, the PS1 was released at £299 in 1995:

(source: https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation/inflation-calculator)

What year is this .gif

 

[June]

According to that £299 in 1995 = £500 in 2013

PS4 launched in UK in 2013 @ £350

Question: Do you think £500 would have been a reasonable price for PS4 at launch?

 

[Agnostic2020]

500$ for both consoles sounds possible, but if MS will launch 12TF and Sony 30-50% weaker console (8-9TF) at the same price then it should be extremely interesting battle.

Yea let’s forget about jason schrier and many others who say they are almost identical and listen to Madz . Xbox fans grasping all the straws before they accept they are within 10% of each other .

I will laugh my ass off if ps5 edges xsx out despite this whole nonsense campaign from Xbox fans just like they did in 2012/2013 before reveal


Ms is not as confident as their fans about ps5 being 9tf machine . “ our most powerful console “ instead of “the most powerful console ever created “of x1x 2 years before launch. If it was 9 vs 12 ms language would be different

 

[Heinrich]

I imagine if the PS5 is over £450 in the UK some gamers will complain about the price.

Well, the PS1 was released at £299 in 1995:

(source: https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation/inflation-calculator)

Way different time back then. You can now play games on your phone one your iPad. GeForce Now is a thing. stadia is a thing.

How many years of GeForce Now Premium could you get for the price OF THE CONSOLE ALONE?

Back then, nothing like this was possible.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Keep fighting the good fight. Its okay if you said something isn’t right about Sony. You aren’t betraying them believe me

when they announce no first party games being exclusive to PS5 for the first 1-2 years that will be shitty and not ideal at all. Till then this issue becomes another “Xbox done goofin’ ... but that is ok because SonyToo” if you do not mind me joking about it .

 

[Mista]

when they announce no first party games being exclusive to PS5 for the first 1-2 years that will be shitty and not ideal in any ways. Till then this issue becomes another “Xbox done goofin’ ... but that is ok because SonyToo” if you do not mind me joking about it .

I don't get butt hurt over plastic and jokes so feel free

 

[Panajev2001a]

TBF, 360 number reports ceased before PS3's, so we don't have an exact LTD on it. But from where it stands, PS3 only managed a couple extra million more in sales, it's effectively within a margin of error, and that is with considering it was in many more markets than 360 which, by that logic, it should've had an even larger gulf between the two in LTD sales.

Then consider the fact that they still incurred losses for so long because of the high BOMs, saw lower attach rates, and had to spend a lot more in R&D, marketing and (presumed) marketing deals and financially, total PS3 lifetime sales did not overcome the losses incurred. So in that sense, it was still a pyrrhic victory.

Both PS3 and 360 had highly rated exclusives that gen so that's a no-brainer, and Blu-Ray was one of the chief reasons it came out a year behind 360 (Cell being the other). PS3's price was only massively beyond 360's until around 2009, once they did the revision. That's about when, on average, PS3 and 360 were priced similarly on the high-end. 360 had the Arcade edition unit on the low-end but I dunno how popular that maintained given the laughable amount of storage you got on the thing.

Overall yes PS3 did help Blu-Ray out, but I'd say it was nowhere to the level PS2 helped DVD become the mainstream format. I'd also argue as a mainstream format, Blu-Ray has provided less returns for the investment compared to DVD; DVD didn't have to compete with streaming right as it was coming into proliferation.

Considering the really bad word of mouth and initial console cost and performance with some third party games (despite giving users so much value: 1080p with HDMI output, SACD playback, best Blu-Ray playback, awesome multimedia capabilities and those lovely video thumbnails, USB, CF + MD+ SD, user swappable standard 2.5’’ HDD, Ethernet and WiFi...), being able to recover was quite amazing: to get close or even beat the Xbox 360 in the end means that month for month its sales were outpacing the competition a lot as it had over a year less on the market than Xbox 360.

The real victory for Sony and why they tripled down on making sure PS3 did not utterly fail was setting up PSN as a digital service, the PSN Store, and ultimately PS4’s launch from a position of strength and on the back of a rising platform not a last place failure with bad word of mouth.

Without the incredible PS3 turnaround PS4 would have not succeeded no matter if it had been the same HW and PSN ecosystem at launch than it was. We have seen in the last two years the incredible amount of revenue PSN on PS4 generated to see what was the real prize on the line.

In isolation eking our an overall profit or cutting overall losses on PS3 is not great Opportunity Cost wise, but when you see it as a springboard for PS4 and PS5 you can appreciate what it was able to deliver.

 

[Shin]

many others. Xbox fans grasping.
Ms is not as confident as their fans

When a person points fingers to others yet is doing the same every time they hit the Enter key.
Worry not they won't ban you though, case in point you're a hypocrite and the quoted is pure irony.

 

[longdi]

What is wrong with some of you?

Even at 599(wont), it is still cheaper than s20

 

[Panajev2001a]

I don't get butt hurt over plastic and jokes so feel free

That is good then, I can definitely share that

 

[Wizav]

I have PS4 Pro, but I won't bother with PS5 in early release period mainly because I am upgrading a PC, and PS5 won't have any BIG exclusives in the early release except maybe Grand Turismo.

Also price is expected to be $599 or $499 (with low disk etc..)

 

[Mista]

I have PS4 Pro, but I won't bother with PS5 in early release period mainly because I am upgrading a PC, and PS5 won't have any BIG exclusives in the early release except maybe Grand Turismo.

Also price is expected to be $599 or $499 (with low disk etc..)

Avatar checks outFucking legend

 

[Daymos]

I think this might be the most difficult console launch ever. It's going to be hard to sell these machines based on power alone and the industry is in this strange state of transition with cloud gaming appearing..and failing. Cloud gaming would kill the idea of buying an expensive console for its power though. Your phone, your nintendo switch, your ps4.... any of them could be a replacement for a ps5 if cloud gaming actually worked.

Personally I'm just not interested in either console right now. I bought an xbox, xbox360, and a ps3 on price cuts.. ps2 and ps4 on launch hype, and a ps1 because it had final fantasy 7. To me the ps5 feels about as exciting as the xbox and ps3 were before launch, which is a very low excitement level.

 

[pawel86ck]

Yea let’s forget about jason schrier and many others who say they are almost identical and listen to Madz . Xbox fans grasping all the straws before they accept they are within 10% of each other .

I will laugh my ass off if ps5 edges xsx out despite this whole nonsense campaign from Xbox fans just like they did in 2012/2013 before reveal


Ms is not as confident as their fans about ps5 being 9tf machine . “ our most powerful console “ instead of “the most powerful console ever created “of x1x 2 years before launch. If it was 9 vs 12 ms language would be different

For many months insiders were saying PS5 will be around 12-13TF and they were sure Sony will reveal PS5 early February (5th, 12, or 14). I was really hyped because I have believed them and I was expecting 12-13TF too, but it's 16th February already so I have realized now these people were simply lying.

That's probably also why their informations dont match up(one said 14 TF, another 12TF etc), because SURPRISE SURPRISE they were lying and I have realized that now. So now I try to look at things from different and more realistic perspective.

I think there is still a small chance that PS5 will be 12-13TF (would be awesome), but right now evidence suggest otherwise.
-github leak
-verified insiders
-450$ BOM cost
-sony dont even want to talk about PS5 speed.

On the other hand MS almost revealed everything by now. We know how XSX will look like, we know it will be 12TF although there's still a chance Phil has lied too.

BTW. since I started looking at PS5 news / leaks from more realistic perspective then for some strange reason playstation fans started attacking me and I was even banned because I tried to defend myself in the most respectful way (and not even warning was given to me). I'm going to buy PS5 regardless if it will be 8TF or 13TF but I have to say other playstation fans arnt like me, they wear blue glasses and are very hateful towards people who dare to think differently. Yes on this site there are also xbox fanboys too (Timdog is probably even worse than all playstation fanboys all together) but I hope people will finally grow up someday and realize these consoles are just toys therefore there's no reason to attack other people because of them.

 

[FranXico]

For many months insiders were saying PS5 will be around 12-13TF and they were sure Sony will reveal PS5 early February (5th, 12, or 14). I was really hyped because I have believed them and I was expecting 12-13TF too, but it's 16th February already so I have realized now these people were simply lying.

That's probably also why their informations dont match (one said 14 TF, another 12TF etc), because SURPRISE SURPRISE they were lying and I have realized that now. So now I try to look at things from different and more realistic perspective.

I think there is a still small chance PS5 will be 12-13TF (would be awesome), but right now evidence suggest otherwise.
-github leaks
-verified insiders
-450$ BOM cost
-sony dont even want to talk about PS5 speed.

On the other hand MS almost revealed everything by now. We know how XSX will look like, we know it will be 12TF although there's still a chance Phil has lied too.

BTW. since I started looking at facts for some strange reasons Sony fans started attacking me and I was even banned because I tried to defend myself in the most respectful way (and not even warning was given to me). I'm going to buy PS5 regardless if it will be 8TF or 13TF but I have to say other playstation fans arnt like me... they wear blue glasses and are very hateful towards people who dare to think differently. Yes on this site there are also xbox fanboys too (Timdog is probably even worse than all playstation fanboys all together) but I hope people will finally grow up someday and realize these consoles are just toys therefore there's no reason to attack other people because of them.

 

[darkinstinct]

For many months insiders were saying PS5 will be around 12-13TF and they were sure Sony will reveal PS5 early February (5th, 12, or 14). I was really hyped because I have believed them and I was expecting 12-13TF too, but it's 16th February already so I have realized now these people were simply lying.

That's probably also why their informations dont match (one said 14 TF, another 12TF etc), because SURPRISE SURPRISE they were lying and I have realized that now. So now I try to look at things from different and more realistic perspective.

I think there is a still small chance PS5 will be 12-13TF (would be awesome), but right now evidence suggest otherwise.
-github leaks
-verified insiders insiders
-450$ BOM cost
-sony dont even want to talk about PS5 speed.

On the other hand MS almost revealed everything by now. We know how XSX will look like, we know it will be 12TF although there's still a chance Phil has lied too.

BTW. since I started looking at facts for some strange reasons Sony fans started attacking me and I was even banned because I tried to defend myself in the most respectful way (and not even warning was given to me). I'm going to buy PS5 regardless if it will be 8TF or 13TF but I have to say other playstation fans arnt like me... they wear blue glasses and are very hateful towards people who dare to think differently. Yes on this site there are also xbox fanboys too (Timdog is probably even worse than all playstation fanboys all together) but I hope people will finally grow up someday and realize these consoles are just toys therefore there's no reason to attack other people because of them.

Phil isn't stupid. After E3 and the 4x performance thing he was very quick to point out that they meant CPU performance, not overall performance. He would've shut down the 12 TF rumors instantly if that wasn't what they were going with, because it's a bad idea to create hype and then deflate it close to launch. You want to get the bad news out way in advance. Instead, he reacted to DF and said they were doing good work, thereby giving credit to their suggestion of 12 TF. 12 TF is a lock for XSX and always was. In fact, if that was always the goal all the actual insiders start to make sense. Microsoft just told devs to target for 12 TF. They didn't say RDNA, they thought that was implied. Sony had early VEGA based devkits and told devs to target 12 TF. Only they meant GCN. Lines up perfectly with 8 TF RDNA in Ariel. So for the longest time devs knew that both were targeting 12 TF but Sony had a faster SSD (as hinted at by Mike Ybarra). That naturally means "both are very close" and "Sony is slightly ahed". I don't even think that Klee lied, he just works on old information, same as Matt. Also makes sense regarding Reiner.

 

[Ingeniero]

I imagine if the PS5 is over £450 in the UK some gamers will complain about the price.

Well, the PS1 was released at £299 in 1995:

(source: https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation/inflation-calculator)

This comparisons do not apply imo.
Yeah inflation is real, but also the wages and salaries are WAY higher than in 1995.

 

[pawel86ck]

Yes, that's my avatar. Xbox classic symbolize to me great times and it was very special console (forward thinking, very little compromises, great games). I however game on every platform and it's not like I prefer one over another. PS2 was my first console and back then I even sold my PC to get it. In 2007 however I only bought PS3 (I bought xbox 360 too but in 2012).

 

[siekro1983]

For many months insiders were saying PS5 will be around 12-13TF and they were sure Sony will reveal PS5 early February (5th, 12, or 14). I was really hyped because I have believed them and I was expecting 12-13TF too, but it's 16th February already so I have realized now these people were simply lying.

That's probably also why their informations dont match (one said 14 TF, another 12TF etc), because SURPRISE SURPRISE they were lying and I have realized that now. So now I try to look at things from different and more realistic perspective.

I think there is a still small chance PS5 will be 12-13TF (would be awesome), but right now evidence suggest otherwise.
-github leaks
-verified insiders
-450$ BOM cost
-sony dont even want to talk about PS5 speed.

On the other hand MS almost revealed everything by now. We know how XSX will look like, we know it will be 12TF although there's still a chance Phil has lied too.

BTW. since I started looking at facts for some strange reasons Sony fans started attacking me and I was even banned because I tried to defend myself in the most respectful way (and not even warning was given to me). I'm going to buy PS5 regardless if it will be 8TF or 13TF but I have to say other playstation fans arnt like me... they wear blue glasses and are very hateful towards people who dare to think differently. Yes on this site there are also xbox fanboys too (Timdog is probably even worse than all playstation fanboys all together) but I hope people will finally grow up someday and realize these consoles are just toys therefore there's no reason to attack other people because of them.

PS4 will be 8-9 teraflops is my feeling, too much evidence in the github leak.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

Sony doesn't talk about PS5 power, because they have no reason to.

Sony only used power in its PS4 marketing, once the power disparity was confirmed and irrefutable. But Sony doesn't start out trying to win the power crown. Not since that PS3 launch.

If PS5 somehow ended up more powerful than Scarlet, then the marketing department would go to town. But the marketting plan was always about games. Being more powerful, if it happens, would just be a happy accident.

 

[siekro1983]

Sony doesn't talk about PS5 power, because they have no reason to.

Sony only used power in its PS4 marketing, once the power disparity was confirmed and irrefutable. But Sony doesn't start out trying to win the power crown. Not since that PS3 launch.

If PS5 somehow ended up more powerful than Scarlet, then the marketing department would go to town. But the marketting plan was always about games. Being more powerful, if it happens, would just be a happy accident.

they have always talked about power in almost every single console they ever built.

 

[pawel86ck]

Sony doesn't talk about PS5 power, because they have no reason to.

Sony only used power in its PS4 marketing, once the power disparity was confirmed and irrefutable. But Sony doesn't start out trying to win the power crown. Not since that PS3 launch.

If PS5 somehow ended up more powerful than Scarlet, then the marketing department would go to town. But the marketting plan was always about games. Being more powerful, if it happens, would just be a happy accident.

Sony dont need to win TFLOPS battle, because with their exclusives people will still buy their console. But I really think if PS5 would be as fast as insiders have claimed Sony would at least hint to it by now.

The reality is... PS5 is a really big unknown. The amount of misinformation is just staggering and we dont even know when sony will share specific details.

 

[Investor9872]

I have PS4 Pro, but I won't bother with PS5 in early release period mainly because I am upgrading a PC, and PS5 won't have any BIG exclusives in the early release except maybe Grand Turismo.

Also price is expected to be $599 or $499 (with low disk etc..)

IMO, I would rather that Sony doesn't release the PS5 until they can launch with 3-5 exclusives two to three years from now. While it's good business not to ignore the PS4's 105 million installment base, if they wanted to do that, then they should just stay with this generation until the developers have enough time to put out well-polished PS5 games.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

they have always talked about power in almost every single console they ever built.

They tried to use Power, and it lead to PS3. So PS4 did not focus on power but balance. And then MS screwed up with Kinect and PS4 won the power crown by accident. And PS4 Pro was intentionally not too powerful but stay in budget.

Sony will talk about power when they cross that bridge. But they have no reason to talk about it unless they know they won.

 

[siekro1983]

They tried to use Power, and it lead to PS3. So PS4 did not focus on power but balance. And then MS screwed up with Kinect and PS4 won the power crown by accident. And PS4 Pro was intentionally not too powerful but stay in budget.

Sony will talk about power when they cross that bridge. But they have no reason to talk about it unless they know they won.

ps4 was about as powerful as it could be for 2013 and the 8 gb of gddr5 was massive . ps2 all they did was talk about 3 million polygons and emotion engine

 

[TGO]

I imagine if the PS5 is over £450 in the UK some gamers will complain about the price.

Well, the PS1 was released at £299 in 1995:

(source: https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation/inflation-calculator)

£500 is still £500 dude


Anyway if Sony is struggling to price PS5 this makes it hard to believe the machine is the lesser of the two Next-Gen consoles.
It's either very close and has some very expensive parts that the XSX doesn't.
Or its more powerful fullstop.
Whatever is costing Sony is costing MS too and both companies have budgets which is likely the equal in value
There is no one without the other.

 

[pawel86ck]

Phil isn't stupid. After E3 and the 4x performance thing he was very quick to point out that they meant CPU performance, not overall performance. He would've shut down the 12 TF rumors instantly if that wasn't what they were going with, because it's a bad idea to create hype and then deflate it close to launch. You want to get the bad news out way in advance. Instead, he reacted to DF and said they were doing good work, thereby giving credit to their suggestion of 12 TF. 12 TF is a lock for XSX and always was. In fact, if that was always the goal all the actual insiders start to make sense. Microsoft just told devs to target for 12 TF. They didn't say RDNA, they thought that was implied. Sony had early VEGA based devkits and told devs to target 12 TF. Only they meant GCN. Lines up perfectly with 8 TF RDNA in Ariel. So for the longest time devs knew that both were targeting 12 TF but Sony had a faster SSD (as hinted at by Mike Ybarra). That naturally means "both are very close" and "Sony is slightly ahed". I don't even think that Klee lied, he just works on old information, same as Matt. Also makes sense regarding Reiner.

I never thought about that but it's very good point. Indeed after E3 Phil very quickly explained 4x refers to CPU power, so he would probably do the same now if 12TF expectations would be wrong.

But I wonder how MS did it? According to leaks XSX BOM isnt much more expensive compared to PS5 BOM, so why 30-50% power difference? That's big difference in performance and I would think XSX should cost at least 100$ more.

 

[siekro1983]

I never thought about that but it's very good point. Indeed after E3 Phil very quickly explained 4x refers to CPU power, so he would probably do the same now if 12TF expectations would be wrong.

But I wonder how MS did it? According to leaks XSX BOM isnt much more expensive compared to PS5 BOM, so why 30-50% power difference?

it could ps4 is much smaller, and the expensive cooling system they mentioned.

 

[TGO]

But I wonder how MS did it? According to leaks XSX BOM isnt much more expensive compared to PS5 BOM, so why 30-50% power difference? That's big difference in performance and I would think XSX should cost at least 100$ more.

It wouldn't, people have using the 30% more powerful since XSX was announced base on Phils comments?
People assumed XSX is 12TF and PS5 HAS to be less powerful.

 

[Bogroll]

Considering the really bad word of mouth and initial console cost and performance with some third party games (despite giving users so much value: 1080p with HDMI output, SACD playback, best Blu-Ray playback, awesome multimedia capabilities and those lovely video thumbnails, USB, CF + MD+ SD, user swappable standard 2.5’’ HDD, Ethernet and WiFi...), being able to recover was quite amazing: to get close or even beat the Xbox 360 in the end means that month for month its sales were outpacing the competition a lot as it had over a year less on the market than Xbox 360.

The real victory for Sony and why they tripled down on making sure PS3 did not utterly fail was setting up PSN as a digital service, the PSN Store, and ultimately PS4’s launch from a position of strength and on the back of a rising platform not a last place failure with bad word of mouth.

Without the incredible PS3 turnaround PS4 would have not succeeded no matter if it had been the same HW and PSN ecosystem at launch than it was. We have seen in the last two years the incredible amount of revenue PSN on PS4 generated to see what was the real prize on the line.

In isolation eking our an overall profit or cutting overall losses on PS3 is not great Opportunity Cost wise, but when you see it as a springboard for PS4 and PS5 you can appreciate what it was able to deliver.

Wasn't the Ps3 on sale longer than the 360 or around the same time as it was on sale until 2017 ?

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

The real victory for Sony and why they tripled down on making sure PS3 did not utterly fail was setting up PSN as a digital service, the PSN Store, and ultimately PS4’s launch from a position of strength and on the back of a rising platform not a last place failure with bad word of mouth.

Without the incredible PS3 turnaround PS4 would have not succeeded no matter if it had been the same HW and PSN ecosystem at launch than it was. We have seen in the last two years the incredible amount of revenue PSN on PS4 generated to see what was the real prize on the line.

Definitely wanted to highlight this part just in case people are still thinking Sony is not seriously considering a service-orientated future including GaaS. They are; they're just being smart and not prioritizing that as their primary message at the moment. But it's also because they need more time to build their plan and infrastructure.

But yeah, easy to say within even 2-3 years time from now there's going to be a good bit more Sony 1st-party games coming to PC and even streaming to 3rd-party mobile devices through a more robust PS Now. They aren't renting out Azure servers for nothing; they want in on the digital platform and streaming future as much as anybody and PS will be their Trojan horse in doing so. I mean think about it; PS has always benefited at least some other parts of the company besides just the gaming division. But besides PS3 Sony's usually been very smart in making sure those other parts don't overshadow the gaming division's focus.

Safe to assume that'll be the case with PS5 but I guess we'll be finding out soon if that's actually going to be it or if something's going on that'll be a detriment.

I imagine if the PS5 is over £450 in the UK some gamers will complain about the price.

Well, the PS1 was released at £299 in 1995:

(source: https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation/inflation-calculator)

It's true to an extent; early adopters don't give a shit about the cost so long as the product can justify the premium, has great marketing, and isn't absolutely outrageous in price (i.e 3DO, CD-i, Neo Geo).

At the same time tho, that was also back in 1995. Western economies in particular were much better at the middle class and even lower class levels than they are today. People didn't need to work 2 or 3 jobs to earn an equivalent amount of money you could've gotten from one job back then. Plus, your dollar went further than it does today.

Another way you can look at it is, if say PS5 comes out for $500 today, in 1995 dollars that comes out to $289. Even tho your dollar got you more in '95, to the average person who is just looking at the raw numbers, $289 would appear a lot more attractive than $500. Reason being is because today a person has to work harder to earn the equivalent amount of spending value they'd of had in 1995. In other words, $500 today won't get you the equivalent of $500 in 1995, but you still have to work harder to get $500 today compared to $500 in 1995, whether that means more hours, more jobs, or both, because wages haven't done a very good job at all with scaling with the rate of inflation.

It wouldn't, people have using the 30% more powerful since XSX was announced base on Phils comments?
People assumed XSX is 12TF and PS5 HAS to be less powerful.

But they're assumptions based on logical data and photo evidence, not just drawn from thin air. The APU die shot, experts who've measured its dimensions, people who understand the size of memory controllers, WGPs, CUs etc. in Navi drawing estimates based on that, the 2x comment etc.; 12TF is is presumed amount based on a grouping of evidence, data, speculation and analysis.

The main reason some people think PS5 will be under that is due to the fact the only proof of its GPU existence that's currently been found and has undergone consistent steppings, Oberon, appears to (still) be a 36 active/40 total CU chip, and there's only but such a limit you can push that in terms of clocks before it just becomes insanity. With that setup, you simply can't hit near 12TF. The upper limits of what that can achieve would put it around 10.24TF; or a little over 15%. However, that's also with the XSX's GPU clocked @ 1700MHz; 1800MHz it would be closer to 12.9TF, or a 21% difference between it and PS5.

Mind, I'm one of the people who thinks there's maybe still another Oberon stepping or two that will show a bank of extra CUs active on it, through some means, maybe by fixing silicon bugs? Because one of the semi-recent steppings had a fix for the memory controller, increasing the bandwidth slightly. So there's still hope on that front for people super-invested in that aspect. That said, with each passing day such doesn't come about, it seems less and less likely. And if there were another chip for PS5 at a higher CU count not related to Oberon, we would have already seen it and it likely would have gone through at least a couple of steppings.

That's the probable reality of this and it doesn't have much anything to do with preferring one platform or another. Personally I just like following actual evidence and hard data, especially if it's all mostly related and following a pattern. I'm still optimistic there's at least maybe a 48CU PS5 chip, which could get around 10.8TF - 11TF of performance, but if there isn't anything uncovered for it by the time GDC passes, then it very likely doesn't exist.

 

[FranXico]

I never thought about that but it's very good point. Indeed after E3 Phil very quickly explained 4x refers to CPU power, so he would probably do the same now if 12TF expectations would be wrong.

Phil doesn't have to.

The 12TF expectation may or may not be reachable in reality, and that's why MS never actually committed to any number, while letting reputable opinion makers spread it.

All you have to do is commend the key people for their "good work" when their speculation portrays your product in a positive light, and a lot of people will extrapolate it to a confirmation.

 

[sinnergy]

Yea let’s forget about jason schrier and many others who say they are almost identical and listen to Madz . Xbox fans grasping all the straws before they accept they are within 10% of each other .

I will laugh my ass off if ps5 edges xsx out despite this whole nonsense campaign from Xbox fans just like they did in 2012/2013 before reveal


Ms is not as confident as their fans about ps5 being 9tf machine . “ our most powerful console “ instead of “the most powerful console ever created “of x1x 2 years before launch. If it was 9 vs 12 ms language would be different

Yeah form factor says nothing ... but it does, it’s big, runs hot, needs cooling. MS already proved they can make a small strong box with One X.

I seriously think MS played their cards right and had a 10TF target for devs , but it was 12. I believe PS5 is 10 TF but there still will be a 2 TF difference which you will see in games.

 

[Blond]

Sell it for $350 and losslead for a year. Isn't that what they always do anyway?

If I remember correctly the PS4 was sold at a loss for about 5 months then became profitable.

Sony CEO Kaz Hirai says PS4 is already profitable

The PlayStation 4 is already profitable for Sony on a hardware unit basis, president and CEO Kazuo Hirai announced during its corporate strategy meeting this week. "It's been a hugely successful...

www.polygon.com

 

[Jtibh]

Extremely sloppy work by OP.

They're shook.

You mean an anti sony person making a dooms day thread about sony?
Well duh.

To anyone expecting less than 500...not gonna happen.

 

[Jimmyisback]

It will be 500 dollars.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Wasn't the Ps3 on sale longer than the 360 or around the same time as it was on sale until 2017 ?

I think they were around the same time on the market before being discontinued, but then again I think even the historic worldwide yearly sale data show PS3 outselling Xbox 360 during most of that generation.
Also, it should be counted for Sony as a plus if they were able to keep delivering software helping HW sales to keep going for longer just as much as MS deserves praise for launching a console earlier and with mature software to boot (despite the shortcuts in the design that caused RRoD issues and choices such as proprietary HDD, no HDMI, and no WiFi chipset built in).

 

[Panajev2001a]

But they're assumptions based on logical data and photo evidence, not just drawn from thin air. The APU die shot, experts who've measured its dimensions, people who understand the size of memory controllers, WGPs, CUs etc. in Navi drawing estimates based on that, the 2x comment etc.; 12TF is is presumed amount based on a grouping of evidence, data, speculation and analysis.

The main reason some people think PS5 will be under that is due to the fact the only proof of its GPU existence that's currently been found and has undergone consistent steppings, Oberon, appears to (still) be a 36 active/40 total CU chip, and there's only but such a limit you can push that in terms of clocks before it just becomes insanity. With that setup, you simply can't hit near 12TF. The upper limits of what that can achieve would put it around 10.24TF; or a little over 15%. However, that's also with the XSX's GPU clocked @ 1700MHz; 1800MHz it would be closer to 12.9TF, or a 21% difference between it and PS5.

Mind, I'm one of the people who thinks there's maybe still another Oberon stepping or two that will show a bank of extra CUs active on it, through some means, maybe by fixing silicon bugs? Because one of the semi-recent steppings had a fix for the memory controller, increasing the bandwidth slightly. So there's still hope on that front for people super-invested in that aspect. That said, with each passing day such doesn't come about, it seems less and less likely. And if there were another chip for PS5 at a higher CU count not related to Oberon, we would have already seen it and it likely would have gone through at least a couple of steppings.

That's the probable reality of this and it doesn't have much anything to do with preferring one platform or another. Personally I just like following actual evidence and hard data, especially if it's all mostly related and following a pattern. I'm still optimistic there's at least maybe a 48CU PS5 chip, which could get around 10.8TF - 11TF of performance, but if there isn't anything uncovered for it by the time GDC passes, then it very likely doesn't exist.

Most of the 12 navi TFLOPS comes from people speculating about the off hand 2x Xbox One X comment and the 8x Xbox One number (both cannot be true at the same time taken at face value, so they are approximations which MS never committed to). The first chip shot and related speculations have focused on explaining how packing that level of performance could be theoretically possible, but there is a great deal of unknown being guessed there too by mostly non chip designers with knowledge of the HW at hand nor the custom enhancements in these semi-custom designs and the level of redundancy in them.

The GPU data “leaks” have been tied together sensibly but the tie to PS5 is also a bit flimsy. Not seeing another stepping with more CU’s may or may not be related to PS5.

I do not see hard data around either GPU.