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Sony open up M2 SSD port to beta testers of system software

Tripolygon

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That shows that its basically stabilized. Most of your graphs there were before SSD/HDD mining caught on.
The tracking from Dec 2020 to Jul 6 2021 and the second one is up to May 21 2021. The price is trending downwards and it will drop further when gen 5 drives start to hit the market by Q2 2022.
 

MrFunSocks

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The tracking from Dec 2020 to Jul 6 2021 and the second one is up to May 21 2021. The price is trending downwards and it will drop further when gen 5 drives start to hit the market by Q2 2022.
We'll see, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Again, mining is making HDDs and SSDs a hot commodity like it did with GPUs.
 

Mr Moose

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Cool story but you are wrong.

1. PCIe Gen 4x2 has a max theoretical bandwidth of 4GB/s so out of the gate your 5GB/s theory is out the window. Think before you type.

2. No storage, SSD or otherwise can guarantee sustained performance, this depends on the type, size of file you are copying, cache etc. We can test this theory by seeing how fast you can transfer a game between XSX internal and expansion card.


From this test it takes 1:13 or 73 seconds to transfer 39GB ~ 550MB/s

An SSD with guaranteed sustained 2.4GB/s should take ~17 seconds

We can do the same with PS5 as well based on this video transfer of 33GB game it takes 32 seconds ~ 1GB/s

An SSD with a guaranteed sustained 5.5GB/s should take 7 seconds

It should be writing close to 4GB/s +/-.
Edit: The Series X|S SSD should be:

Sequential Read/Write: Up to 2,400/1,950 MB/s
 
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Smoke6

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Sony should put a video front and center about the expansion port and how to on the homepage as soon as you login to your account
 

Tripolygon

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We'll see, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Again, mining is making HDDs and SSDs a hot commodity like it did with GPUs.
There is no we'll see. Lets compare a much slower proprietary storage.

XSX expansion storage has seen a few $10 off retail promotions


Compared to a non proprietary storage dropping from 200 to 154
 
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MrFunSocks

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There is no we'll see. Lets compare a much slower proprietary storage.

XSX expansion storage has seen a few $10 off retail promotions


Compared to a non proprietary storage dropping from 200 to 154
The non proprietary basically had a single price drop and has stayed within a few dollars after that - $155-$160 - so in the last 6 months, the price has stayed the same.
 

Tripolygon

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The non proprietary basically had a single price drop and has stayed within a few dollars after that - $155-$160 - so in the last 6 months, the price has stayed the same.
Except for the fact that there are multiple options on the market like the 1TB Corsair MP600 CORE that was tested in this beta to work is going for $144 with a heatsink included on Amazon right now.
 
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Thanks for that!

With Sony now porting everything to PCs, it's imperative that they dont push the SSD requirements too much.

Well not everything, but it'll be quite a bit more and IMHO in shorter intervals than previously.

Thanks for the refresher. People do not pay attention or have selective amnesia. Everything was said in that presentation, the SSD must be at least as fast as ours meaning 5.5GB/s and higher. People ran with the 7GB/s SSD for their narrative.

"Narrative", sure. It was explicitly mentioned at one point shortly after the presentation that due to differences in priority levels, channels, firmware, cache setups etc. between the internal drive and 3P SSDs, the 3P drives would need to be 7 GB/s or faster to make up for overhead costs to provide similar performance to the internal one. That was a common-sense conclusion.

What's going to be more interesting now is if 3P SSDs with the same bandwidth as the internal one but marked differences in priority levels, channel setups etc. offer the same performance as the internal one for 1P and 3P ones, but especially 1P ones. If so, it'll kill one of the big talking points about a lot of the 1P games needing to target the type of SSD I/O as the internal drive to run at the performance level they have.

Which also inadvertently means there'll be nothing on a technological level preventing any future 1P games getting ported to PC, probably to the chagrin of some particular folks.

Also:

I can understand if people claim 7GB/s because he did have that slide up that showed the full capability of 4x PCIE 4.0 drive. He never actually said that you need 7GB/s, what he said was any SSD you add "has to be at least as fast as ours" plus "a little extra speed to take care of issues arising from" having to arbitrate the extra priority level.

Well when you say "a little extra speed" and then have an icon graphic showing a 7 GB/s SSD on the screen at the exact same time, you can't blame people for assuming a link in that "little extra speed" equating to a 7 GB/s drive.

Don't try twisting this into everyone who thought that to be the case, doing it for nefarious purposes. It was a genuine conclusion of thought for many at the time.

The Xbox is a console. Having to go out and buy an additional adapter isn't easier for the customer. Also the speed of the Xbox solution has been on par with what the PlayStation offers despite PlayStation's being so much faster on paper. It's also been proven that for the PS5 to fully take advantage of that speed it has to be specifically coded for. Also £165 is $230 is MORE than the Xbox card currently. I don't think that suggestion is better than what is currently available for Xbox now.


The MS solution is fitting for a console. Consoles are proprietary by definition. The speed argument is meaningless when it doesn't equal to much in real world conditions. More than twice the speed of Xbox's card, are you seeing significantly faster loading on all games with the PS5 currently? If I remember correctly there has even been some games that have loaded faster on Xbox which is amazing. The price is the same or even less than what Sony's solution is offering right now. Well that and it works today and we have no idea when Sony's solution will become active. This is just an area when it sounded good on paper but as we can see the actual implementation is less impressive.

You're gonna get a lot of people downplay Microsoft's solution as a cashgrab or being a "poor" price/performance value proposition, when both conclusions are outright wrong. The misconception for example that proprietary solutions always remain high: well last I remember, things like memory cards existed as proprietary solutions. But then this radical thing happened where more manufacturing partners were brought onboard, helping to drive MSRP costs down as volume of units on the market increased. For whatever reason, even though Microsoft has outright said they will be expanding partner support for their drives in the future beyond Seagate, there's a lot of people still treating it as if Seagate will forever be the only option, that capacities will stay at 1 TB, and that prices will remain at the current level for seemingly forever.

True, there's benefits to an open solution, but you're also right in that for something like storage an open solution is pretty un-console like; it has to be rolled out very carefully and takes a while, like we're seeing with the M.2 expansion support on PS5. If people are willing to wait through that then that's perfectly fine, but neither approach is without downsides or drawbacks.

Personally, for a console, I prefer MS's approach because it's in line with how consoles have handled this for decades when looking at memory cards for example, and no one had complaint with those in the past. As long as more partners besides Seagate are allowed to make official expansion cards, that should help with keeping prices down for the customer. The reason PS Vita's solution failed was precisely because Sony never opened it up for manufacturing partners to make their own storage variants, as that would've created competition to keep prices more fair. Outside of that the storage solution for the Vita in itself was very well done.
 
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Mr Moose

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My mistake, I chose the read speed instead of the write speed.
It's interesting, they are gimping the writing speed? 550MB/s instead of 1.95GB/s and 1GB/s instead of 4.25GB/s :pie_thinking:
The main thing is the read speeds, though I have no idea how we can test that on consoles :messenger_weary:
 

RoadHazard

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You greatly underestimate the ignorance of the average consumer, for the average consumer which this product is a 90th percentile this is a clusterfuck. Also that's not correct, Microsoft's drive is not half as slow as Sony's. There's a big difference between the way they advertised their SSD's.

Microsoft only ever advertised the sustained speed of their SSD, sustained speed. Sony on the other hand advertised theoretical peak speed and never mentioned sustained. Given the actual results in games it appears that Sony and Microsoft's drives both in sustained and peak performance function virtually the same.

Per usual people such as yourself got hook, lined and sinkered by marketing snake oil.

Sony's SSD is actually MORE than twice as fast, so you're not completely wrong. Only almost completely.
 

RoadHazard

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  1. Remove faceplate
  2. Unscrew 1 screw
  3. Pop in SSD with prefitted heatsink
  4. Screw 1 screw back in
  5. Put faceplate back on

COMPLICATED AS FUCK, OH MY GOD NOBODY IS EVER GOING TO MANAGE THIS, DON'T YOU KNOW NOBODY KNOWS HOW TO USE A SCREWDRIVER?! SONY COMPLETELY FUCKED UP!!!

Some of you really think the average person is dumber than a rock. Which, granted, some people are. But most people can follow extremely simple instructions and operate a screwdriver, even if you can't.
 
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Mr Moose

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  1. Remove faceplate
  2. Unscrew 1 screw
  3. Pop in SSD with prefitted heatsink
  4. Screw 1 screw back in
  5. Put faceplate back on

COMPLICATED AS FUCK, OH MY GOD NOBODY IS EVER GOING TO MANAGE THIS, DON'T YOU KNOW NOBODY KNOWS HOW TO USE A SCREWDRIVER?! SONY COMPLETELY FUCKED UP!!!

Some of you really think the average person is dumber than a rock. Which, granted, some people are. But most people can follow extremely simple instructions and operate a screwdriver, even if you can't.
 

Shmunter

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Aug 25, 2018
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  1. Remove faceplate
  2. Unscrew 1 screw
  3. Pop in SSD with prefitted heatsink
  4. Screw 1 screw back in
  5. Put faceplate back on

COMPLICATED AS FUCK, OH MY GOD NOBODY IS EVER GOING TO MANAGE THIS, DON'T YOU KNOW NOBODY KNOWS HOW TO USE A SCREWDRIVER?! SONY COMPLETELY FUCKED UP!!!

Some of you really think the average person is dumber than a rock. Which, granted, some people are. But most people can follow extremely simple instructions and operate a screwdriver, even if you can't.
Average person no issue, Xbox user on the other hand…..errrrr 😜
 
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kyliethicc

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About the rest mode, thanks. Someone did point that out earlier in the thread on my comment. I didn't know that was the cause, and thought it was just a bug that the message popped up. I appreciate the information either way.

In regards to the heat sink, the product page shows the dimensions as:
Item Dimensions LxWxH ‎L: 2.76 IN x W: 0.2 IN x H:0.87In
or
Item Dimensions LxWxH ‎L: 70.104mm x W: 0.5.08mm x H:22.098mm

Something seems off about that height measurement, but.. maybe it's right.

If I read that right, wouldn't the height on that be too tall as well?
No that heatsink will fit fine.

M2 drives are 80 mm long and 22 mm wide. And about 1 mm thick.

That heatsink is 70 mm long and 22 mm wide. And about 5 mm thick.

So adding it on top would make the overall size be 80 x 22 x 6 mm.

Max size that can fit inside is 110 mm long x 25 mm wide x 8.8 mm thick.
 
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Tripolygon

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"Narrative", sure. It was explicitly mentioned at one point shortly after the presentation that due to differences in priority levels, channels, firmware, cache setups etc. between the internal drive and 3P SSDs, the 3P drives would need to be 7 GB/s or faster to make up for overhead costs to provide similar performance to the internal one. That was a common-sense conclusion.
It was not explicitly stated, if it was you can explicitly point to what point in that video where it was explicitly stated that 7GB/s was needed to compensate for 2 priority queue in standard nvme specifications. In fact, I will say that when that 7GB/s slide was up he was explicitly talking about the full bandwidth and capability of gen 3 SSD vs gen 4 SSD compared to PS5 SSD as it related to the wired interview of PS5 back in early 2020.

What's going to be more interesting now is if 3P SSDs with the same bandwidth as the internal one but marked differences in priority levels, channel setups etc. offer the same performance as the internal one for 1P and 3P ones, but especially 1P ones. If so, it'll kill one of the big talking points about a lot of the 1P games needing to target the type of SSD I/O as the internal drive to run at the performance level they have.

Don't really care about talking points at this point. I care about what I actually see as we are almost a year into the generation and we are seeing the benefits of SSDs being present in current gen consoles. There are games loading in 1.5 seconds on PS5, that is pretty astonishing as someone who has been gaming since cartridge era and diskettes on PC. As an insomniac dev kindly posted on twitter, from their benchmark of various SSD, they are seeing games with about 15% slower load time in places where the SSD is being pushed, that is a difference going from 1.5 seconds to 1.75 seconds. I can live with that for a slightly slower SSD.

Which also inadvertently means there'll be nothing on a technological level preventing any future 1P games getting ported to PC, probably to the chagrin of some particular folks.
There is nothing you can do technologically at 5.5GB/s that you can't do in 2.4GB/s albeit at a slightly slower speed. Developers have been optimizing around storage limitations for several decades now.

Well when you say "a little extra speed" and then have an icon graphic showing a 7 GB/s SSD on the screen at the exact same time, you can't blame people for assuming a link in that "little extra speed" equating to a 7 GB/s drive.
Preceded by "has to be as fast as ours", clearly stating that you can use SSD with 5.5GB/s bandwidth. Thats why it pays to listen to what someone is saying rather than running with a slide out of context. I seem to have understood it back then and I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed. Lol
Don't try twisting this into everyone who thought that to be the case, doing it for nefarious purposes. It was a genuine conclusion of thought for many at the time.
I didn't twist anything. I simply stated a fact. People ran with their narrative for various reasons. 7GB/s turned to 8GB/s to some people. One raining narrative being how PS5 SSD will be so expensive because you need 7GB/s and of course the other PS5 SSD is much faster than 7GB/s because of 6 priority queue.
 
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jroc74

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So now proprietary is good. Interesting.

I dont wanna hear a peep from anyone about DS4 controllers not being able to be used for PS5 games ever again....

Or Vita memory cards

Thanks.

Both solutions has pros n cons....but seriously....is not rocket science. I guess we can retroactively go back and praise MS for the 360 hard drives now too I guess....

This is also just like the PS3 where they allowed you to use off the shelf hard drives to install. I didn’t see people back then whine and complain about screwdrivers.

PS3/4 we’re a lot trickier than the PS5 as you were literally replacing an existing storage. You had to backup stuff and even reinstall the o/s from USB etc.
Didnt you hear? There was a massive recall on those consoles because ppl could install hard drives.

Sony actually figured it out with the PS3 Super Slim and had onboard storage. It made installing hard drives alot easier. Dont know why they took a step back with the PS4. I was wondering if Sony would do the PS3 Super Slim way for the PS5, seems like they kinda did. Only difference is both storage areas will be available this time, the PS3 Super Slim it wasnt, it was just a fail safe. You couldnt access it when you installed a harddrive.
 
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Shmunter

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So now proprietary is good. Interesting.

I dont wanna hear a peep from anyone about DS4 controllers not being able to be used for PS5 games ever again....

Or Vita memory cards

Thanks.

Both solutions has pros n cons....but seriously....is not rocket science. I guess we can retroactively go back and praise MS for the 360 hard drives now too I guess....




Didnt you hear? There was a massive recall on those consoles because ppl could install hard drives.

Sony actually figured it out with the PS3 Super Slim and had onboard storage. It made installing hard drives alot easier. Dont know why they took a step back with the PS4. I was wondering if Sony would do the PS3 Super Slim way for the PS5, seems like they kinda did. Only difference is both storage areas will be available this time, the PS3 Super Slim it wasnt, it was just a fail safe. You couldnt access it when you installed a harddrive.
Didn’t know that fact about PS3 super slim.
 
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kyliethicc

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I was a teenager then and I was able to do it. Some people managed to upgrade their PS3 and PS4 storage which was more difficult compared to Xbox 360 slide on expansion storage.

Yeah lol I was a kid and just used this IGN video for my PS3. It was easy (since I'm not too retarded.) Did the same thing when I put a SATA SSD inside my PS4 Pro.

PS5 is even easier tbh since its only additive, not a replacement.


 
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Mar 27, 2020
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Uncharted bunghole
  1. Remove faceplate
  2. Unscrew 1 screw
  3. Pop in SSD with prefitted heatsink
  4. Screw 1 screw back in
  5. Put faceplate back on

COMPLICATED AS FUCK, OH MY GOD NOBODY IS EVER GOING TO MANAGE THIS, DON'T YOU KNOW NOBODY KNOWS HOW TO USE A SCREWDRIVER?! SONY COMPLETELY FUCKED UP!!!

Some of you really think the average person is dumber than a rock. Which, granted, some people are. But most people can follow extremely simple instructions and operate a screwdriver, even if you can't.

Maybe we should design a children's book around that and have Mark Cerny read it to them.

 

jroc74

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Didn’t know that fact about PS3 super slim.
I didnt like the console overall, was too flimsy to me. But the storage situation was great. Even tho mine came with 12GB, I knew I was putting my current phat PS3 hard drive in there.
 
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MrFunSocks

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  1. Remove faceplate
  2. Unscrew 1 screw
  3. Pop in SSD with prefitted heatsink
  4. Screw 1 screw back in
  5. Put faceplate back on

COMPLICATED AS FUCK, OH MY GOD NOBODY IS EVER GOING TO MANAGE THIS, DON'T YOU KNOW NOBODY KNOWS HOW TO USE A SCREWDRIVER?! SONY COMPLETELY FUCKED UP!!!

Some of you really think the average person is dumber than a rock. Which, granted, some people are. But most people can follow extremely simple instructions and operate a screwdriver, even if you can't.
It's not that part that anyone is calling "complicated" though, it's the choosing what SSD to use and how it will affect how your games play.
 

01011001

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Definitely prefer this method over propriety bs.

Gonna wait for SSD prices to drop a bit more.

I see no negative for the customer yet with Microsoft's approach. they had a 1TB extension since launch and it is actually cheaper than getting a 1TB M.2 SSD that is on spec for the PS5.
if Microsoft/Seagate adjust the prices for these expansion cards accordingly as SSD prices go down, what exactly is the issue?

for the here and now:
-easy to use
-fair price
-available from launch

we have to see if they try to keep the price high even after SSD prices go down for similar speed/size, then I could understand that viewpoint but for now, not so much
 
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kyliethicc

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I see no negative for the customer yet with Microsoft's approach. they had a 1TB extension since launch and it is actually cheaper than getting a 1TB M.2 SSD that is on spec for the PS5.
if Microsoft/Seagate adjust the prices for these expansion cards accordingly as SSD prices go down, what exactly is the issue?

for the here and now:
-easy to use
-fair price
-available from launch

we have to see if they try to keep the price high even after SSD prices go down for similar speed/size, then I could understand that viewpoint but for now, not so much
Because Xbox only needs 2.4 GB/s SSDs, they could have let users use PCIe Gen3x4 M2 drives for expansion. Those are much less expensive than their proprietary storage card.

There's nothing fair about charging $220 for 1 TB @ 2.4 GB/s.

Here's the same 2.4 GB/s 1 TB as Xbox's internal. $105 for 1 TB.


The Seagate card is a ripoff.

And M.2 SSDs for PS5 can be had for $200 for 1 TB, which is also cheaper than Xbox's $220.
 
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01011001

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Because Xbox only needs 2.4 GB/s SSDs, they could have let users use PCIe Gen3x4 M2 drives for expansion. Those are much less expensive than their proprietary storage card.

There's nothing fair about charging $220 for 1 TB @ 2.4 GB/s.

Here's the same 2.4 GB/s 1 TB as Xbox's internal. $105 for 1 TB.


The Seagate card is a ripoff.

And M.2 SSDs for PS5 can be had for $200 for 1 TB, which is also cheaper than Xbox's $220.

reviews of this drive you linked say the sequential read performance is ~450GB/s, these drives advertise PEAK(!) performance not sustained sequential performance.
that 2.4GB/s on Xbox is sustained performance at all times.

so find me a drive that actually does this and then come back
 
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longdi

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  1. Remove faceplate
  2. Unscrew 1 screw
  3. Pop in SSD with prefitted heatsink
  4. Screw 1 screw back in
  5. Put faceplate back on

COMPLICATED AS FUCK, OH MY GOD NOBODY IS EVER GOING TO MANAGE THIS, DON'T YOU KNOW NOBODY KNOWS HOW TO USE A SCREWDRIVER?! SONY COMPLETELY FUCKED UP!!!

Some of you really think the average person is dumber than a rock. Which, granted, some people are. But most people can follow extremely simple instructions and operate a screwdriver, even if you can't.

just to add, the usual m.2 screw is tiny and brittle af, better becareful not to strip it. 🤷‍♀️
 

Gamerguy84

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Mar 25, 2019
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I wonder if/when global chip shortages are going to hit NVMe drives again, or are we still in it?

Anyway I'm not upgrading for a good while. I don't play 650GB worth of games simultaneously and have no data cap. Plus I do have an external and two PS5s.
 

01011001

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so you are saying Microsoft is lying, ok do you have proof of that or are you talking out of your ass?

current info we have to go on is Microsoft saying that their drive reliably performs at 2.4GB/s sequential read. if you say they are lying that is pure speculation with no proof either way. if we assume they don't lie then show me a drive that can do that at the price you said.

also if you think MS is lying, how about Sony only telling us peak theoretical performance? well, now let's just assume Sony's drive also only reaches maybe 4GB/s max, why not... Sony is known to lie about specs or vastly oversell/move numbers around to get to the desired PR numbers... just remember the 2 Teraflop/s PS3 GPU performance announced at E3 :)
 
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twilo99

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Finally! I thought it might never happen.

Now, lets see how long it stays in "beta"
 

dxdt

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  1. Remove faceplate
  2. Unscrew 1 screw
  3. Pop in SSD with prefitted heatsink
  4. Screw 1 screw back in
  5. Put faceplate back on

COMPLICATED AS FUCK, OH MY GOD NOBODY IS EVER GOING TO MANAGE THIS, DON'T YOU KNOW NOBODY KNOWS HOW TO USE A SCREWDRIVER?! SONY COMPLETELY FUCKED UP!!!

Some of you really think the average person is dumber than a rock. Which, granted, some people are. But most people can follow extremely simple instructions and operate a screwdriver, even if you can't.
Most people are not dumb. They are just afraid of doing something wrong and damage a $500 machine. You also forget the initial step of researching for an SSD that's compatible with the PS5.
 
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Mr Moose

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reviews of this drive you linked say the sequential read performance is ~450GB/s, these drives advertise PEAK(!) performance not sustained sequential performance.
that 2.4GB/s on Xbox is sustained performance at all times.

so find me a drive that actually does this and then come back
 
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FranXico

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If anything Sony is just protecting themselves by stating that you need a heatsink. I honestly don't believe any PS5s will catch on fire if you forget to put one in it. Maybe the performance of the SSD will suffer if you don't have one but that remains to be seen.
SSDs without heatsink will not overheat the PS5, but will start throttling once they start getting too hot.

Already enough reason to cover themselves in any case.
 
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Md Ray

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Test it and find out. The PS4, PS4 Pro and PS5 all have fail safes where they would shut down the console if it got too hot.
Why would an NVMe drive overheat the PS5 make it shut off? It makes no sense. Do laptops or desktops shut themselves down if you've installed one without a heatsink? No.

SSD w/o heatsink on PS5 would simply thermal throttle and reduce its read and write speeds, you just won't get the same perf as the built-in drive. That's it.
 
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Md Ray

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Didn't I tell you already? My memory is shit so it might've been someone else. You could get a SN850 1TB (7GB/s) for $179 in April. Throw on a $10 heatsink, that's a saving of (and >2x speed) $30.
Don't waste your time on trolls.
 
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I'll wait for the dust to settle and let the stage 2 beta testers have a go once the update goes live for the masses.

I've not opened my PS5 up yet but it doesn't look like rocket science and swapping the PS3 and PS4 HDD was cake.
 

FranXico

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I'll wait for the dust to settle and let the stage 2 beta testers have a go once the update goes live for the masses.

I've not opened my PS5 up yet but it doesn't look like rocket science and swapping the PS3 and PS4 HDD was cake.
The market will evolve. SSD prices will start to drop. More rapidly than if the expansion was proprietary, mind you.