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Sony open up M2 SSD port to beta testers of system software

Md Ray

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You clearly don't understand the delineation between sustained speed and theoretical peak speed. The Series X SSD operates at 2.4GB/s sustained. That is the slowest the drive will ever operate in worst-case scenarios and for extended usage.

Microsoft never disclosed their theoretical peak speeds, their entire angle has been about what the drive can sustain, not about its random read and write potential. Based upon other drives with sustained speed similar to that it's most likely around 5GB/s.
Lmao, 5GB/s... You wish, pal!

Just like you wish Series S didn't exist. :messenger_tears_of_joy:

Look at the speed when running Series SSD through crystal disk mark. It's not even 2 GB/s.
 
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BadBurger

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You can't really get an idea of the performance of a custom SSD outside of its intended environment. On that PC it's using stock firmware on the system board, stock firmware and generic Windows system drivers for the storage controller and disk, etc. I have a few M2's that are rated at 3500MBps/3000MBps, but using even the most accurate capacity planning tools for Windows it will never break about 1500MBps.

If the SSD manufacturer had worked with the system board and storage controller manufacturers to develop custom firmware and drivers, and then the same with Microsoft on an OS level, then sure, might be able to bleed the full capacity from a SSD. But not as it stands.
 
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Panajev2001a

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You greatly underestimate the ignorance of the average consumer, for the average consumer which this product is a 90th percentile this is a clusterfuck. Also that's not correct, Microsoft's drive is not half as slow as Sony's. There's a big difference between the way they advertised their SSD's.

Microsoft only ever advertised the sustained speed of their SSD, sustained speed. Sony on the other hand advertised theoretical peak speed and never mentioned sustained. Given the actual results in games it appears that Sony and Microsoft's drives both in sustained and peak performance function virtually the same.

Per usual people such as yourself got hook, lined and sinkered by marketing snake oil.
Oh right sustained vs peak… sure buddy… the SSD with a DRAM cache next to it and a pool of SRAM in the I/O controller has problems keeping sustained speed close to theoretical while the other drive (PCI-E 4.0 interface and PCI-E 3.0 drive IIRC) advertises sustained and has a much higher peak figure. “The gap does not matter, but if it did well… the gap is actually smaller… Sony LIED again!!!!!”.
 

phil_t98

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For everybody who is quoting Sony have always done this and you could swap the hard drive since PS3, yeah that’s right but you couldn’t really go wrong in buying a hard drive as there was only 2 speeds available. The average consumer wont know that there are loads of differing speeds to SSD’s and that COULD cause a problem With purchasing. We’ll see soon enough once its opened up outside the BETA testers as if this strategy pays off.

Also with those saying about the sticker on a box which is an awesome idea but do you think Sony will let them advertise a product with PlayStation in the advert or box for free? There will always be a charge for that
 

RoadHazard

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For everybody who is quoting Sony have always done this and you could swap the hard drive since PS3, yeah that’s right but you couldn’t really go wrong in buying a hard drive as there was only 2 speeds available. The average consumer wont know that there are loads of differing speeds to SSD’s and that COULD cause a problem With purchasing. We’ll see soon enough once its opened up outside the BETA testers as if this strategy pays off.

Also with those saying about the sticker on a box which is an awesome idea but do you think Sony will let them advertise a product with PlayStation in the advert or box for free? There will always be a charge for that

Yes, but when swapping HDD on PS3 or PS4 you had to have a USB stick with the latest firmware ready, or you wouldn't have a working console at all. That's more "complicated" than anything you have to do on PS5, here you're simply expanding the storage.
 
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phil_t98

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Yes, but when swapping HDD on PS3 or PS4 you had to have a USB stick with the latest firmware ready, or you wouldn't have a working console at all. That's more "complicated" than anything you have to do on PS5, here you're simply expanding the memory.

very true, I still think there will be lots of people who will buy the wrong drives to begin with
 
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RoadHazard

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very true, I still think there will be lots of people who will buy the wrong drives to begin with

Sure, but if people don't do at least a little research before buying something like this I don't really know how you can blame Sony for that. I bet retailers are gonna start listing which ones you should get for the PS5 as well, etc. Of course Microsoft's solution is simpler, and basically impossible to get wrong, but if you're not too lazy to read up on it for 5 minutes it will be very easy to get right on PS5 too, and you'll get more value in the end.
 

Md Ray

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To those who are concern trolling or genuinely don't know which drive to get...
Ouch, this seems like a complete hassle, and Sony should have thought about this, this is not going to go well for the common consumer who does know about specs and what to buy for expanded storage. I don't understand why Sony went this route and could not do what Xbox just did and make their own storage or sooner or later allowed companies to make their own. This is stupid and a big turn-off for me and the people that will defend it are the reason why companies get away with such stupidity such as this hassle and the fact that you have to beta test this is funny.
It's not that part that anyone is calling "complicated" though, it's the choosing what SSD to use and how it will affect how your games play.
Cerny explicitly mentioned this:
Mark Cerny @The Road to PS5 said:
Once we've done that compatibility testing, we should be able to start letting you know which drives physically fit and which drive samples have benchmarked appropriately high in our testing.
 
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YCoCg

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For everybody who is quoting Sony have always done this and you could swap the hard drive since PS3, yeah that’s right but you couldn’t really go wrong in buying a hard drive as there was only 2 speeds available
You could also buy the wrong sized drive in two ways, there were 2.5inch drives that were 11mm in height (PS3 only accepted 9mm and you had to check on websites which ones fit) and if you went over 1TB on PS3 you also started running into problems again depending on the drive and model. It's revisionist history to act like you couldn't make a mistake back then.
 

SkylineRKR

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You should just wait for websites who test various drives for you and get such one. I figure manufacturers will like to add works with PS5 on the box, as they do with Switch memory cards.

On PS3 I might've lucked out but I bought a 160gb SATA for like 50 bucks in 2007 and slotted that into the 40gb phat. Worked like a charm. I liked how they weren't proprietary. Xbox 360 drive of 120gb was still 120 bucks. I think its ridiculous you should be happy with just one brand being licensed, its like going digital only. As if that Series drive is ever going to drop in price. I would like to upgrade my S, but I probably never will as its a better deal to either delete games or just buy an X instead. But deleting GP games and beaten games in general is no big deal.
 
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phil_t98

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You could also buy the wrong sized drive in two ways, there were 2.5inch drives that were 11mm in height (PS3 only accepted 9mm and you had to check on websites which ones fit) and if you went over 1TB on PS3 you also started running into problems again depending on the drive and model. It's revisionist history to act like you couldn't make a mistake back then.

Not revisionist history, yeah a few ways to get it wrong back then but more ways to now. Not saying it will happen but it could happen to a lot of people. Sony need to be as CLEAR as they can be about what you need to do
 

PaintTinJr

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You could also buy the wrong sized drive in two ways, there were 2.5inch drives that were 11mm in height (PS3 only accepted 9mm and you had to check on websites which ones fit) and if you went over 1TB on PS3 you also started running into problems again depending on the drive and model. It's revisionist history to act like you couldn't make a mistake back then.
And some drives also needed low level firmware settings changed, like the IBM(hitachi now) deskstars to ensure they ran in SATA1 mode compatible with the PS3 - had this issue myself - because the SATA2 and 3 modes had power saving, speed/acoustic options that changed their performance/latency at power-on, which the PS3 didn't like.

The PS2 hard drive/network adapter situation was equally fraught with requiring user understanding to use anything but the one that came with the PS2 linux kit - as was buying a generic tape deck for use with a Sinclair ZX computer in the 80s.

Any confusion probably just helps game shops get some business from people coming in to ask, too.
 
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FranXico

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Oh right sustained vs peak… sure buddy… the SSD with a DRAM cache next to it and a pool of SRAM in the I/O controller has problems keeping sustained speed close to theoretical while the other drive (PCI-E 4.0 interface and PCI-E 3.0 drive IIRC) advertises sustained and has a much higher peak figure. “The gap does not matter, but if it did well… the gap is actually smaller… Sony LIED again!!!!!”.
Well, the point about average consumers was proven, I guess...
 

GuinGuin

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Didn't see this being discussed. Insomniac says recommended drives give nearly identical performance and slower drives only give a 15% reduction in loading times due to other I/O improvements in the PS5.
 

ManaByte

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Didn't see this being discussed. Insomniac says recommended drives give nearly identical performance and slower drives only give a 15% reduction in loading times due to other I/O improvements in the PS5.

So they're saying the Gen4 drives everyone has been saying for a year are identical to the PS5 SSD...actually are.
 
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So they're saying the Gen4 drives everyone has been saying for a year are identical to the PS5 SSD...actually are.

Not exactly the same. But even those internal drives will benefit from the I/O complex. I don't necessarily believe that Cerny wanted all that custom hardware to be exclusive to the soldered drive.
 

BlackTron

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What person who buys so many games they need additional high-speed storage can't buy a drive from a list of working models and stick it in a slot?

The vast majority of PS5's will never get expanded SSD space. Most people won't even care enough.

Sony actually made upgrading disk space easier than before because when you took out your PS3/4's HDD, you took its OS with it. Once you replaced the drive, you needed to restore the OS and all your stuff. Now that's all soldered to the main board and you're just adding in an extra drive. So, if somehow society survived through the PS3 and 4, we should do even better this time.

Well hold on...only certain drives will work. Big technical challenge right? Not really, now Sony can give you a list of mass-market standard parts that work that you can choose from depending on your wants of space, price, brand whatever. You really don't need to know anything about it, unless you want to be a beta tester (no soccer mom wants to do this).

Microsoft also supplies you with such a list. There is only one item on it, theirs.

Edit: I should say that I also like MS's solution and it's really cool how it works like a hot-swappable memory card. It's one perk it has over Sony's solution. But I see this hot-swap nature as the only real benefit. I think the better performance is legitimate and I do not think that R&C would work on XSX. That said, both solutions make great games possible.
 
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Didn't see this being discussed. Insomniac says recommended drives give nearly identical performance and slower drives only give a 15% reduction in loading times due to other I/O improvements in the PS5.
So the SSD customizations that everyone said you needed much faster to equal such as 6 lanes vs 2 lanes literally effects nothing. This like everything else will never be brought up again and the fanboys will just start heavy breathing to the next unexplored customization.
 

cormack12

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This been posted?


Tech Director at Insomniac on using slowers SSDs

That's weird. So they would have had to build the game around those 15% slower externals right? I imagine on traditional loading screens you'd just wait the extra half second, but for stuff like in game transitions they won't suddenly get longer will they? Like they aren't adaptive are they?
 
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That's weird. So they would have had to build the game around those 15% slower externals right? I imagine on traditional loading screens you'd just wait the extra half second, but for stuff like in game transitions they won't suddenly get longer will they? Like they aren't adaptive are they?
Add 15% to the black screen in the Rift and I doubt anyone will notice.

Edit
It's not a set time. It's on screen till the task is done. Nothing will need to be changed.
 
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Darklor01

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What person who buys so many games they need additional high-speed storage can't buy a drive from a list of working models and stick it in a slot?

The vast majority of PS5's will never get expanded SSD space. Most people won't even care enough.

Sony actually made upgrading disk space easier than before because when you took out your PS3/4's HDD, you took its OS with it. Once you replaced the drive, you needed to restore the OS and all your stuff. Now that's all soldered to the main board and you're just adding in an extra drive. So, if somehow society survived through the PS3 and 4, we should do even better this time.

Well hold on...only certain drives will work. Big technical challenge right? Not really, now Sony can give you a list of mass-market standard parts that work that you can choose from depending on your wants of space, price, brand whatever. You really don't need to know anything about it, unless you want to be a beta tester (no soccer mom wants to do this).

Microsoft also supplies you with such a list. There is only one item on it, theirs.

Edit: I should say that I also like MS's solution and it's really cool how it works like a hot-swappable memory card. It's one perk it has over Sony's solution. But I see this hot-swap nature as the only real benefit. I think the better performance is legitimate and I do not think that R&C would work on XSX. That said, both solutions make great games possible.
People are ridiculous in some ways. How hard is it to look up "recommended NVME ps5" and find a link from IGN or even Tom's Hardware to find a link like this:

Next, how hard is it to find a video on how to install it with or without a heatsink and how to put a heatsink on the drive, if you don't have one pre-attached, on Youtube with a search like to find a video like this one (which also shows you how to clean the PS5 inside):
(I searched "how to install an m.2 ssd in ps5 with heat sink" and set the search to the last 24 hours)

In the comments, he includes which Heatsink he bought on Amazon:

OK, so, what if you don't have a screwdriver?? Sony said you need a #1 crosshead? I searched "M.2 drive screwdriver kit":

Which, on my screen, also, shows items frequently bought together to be this kit, a 2280 NVME (happens to be a Samsung 980), and the heatsink the guy in the how to video bought.

I don't really think it's overly complicated. It's not XSX hot-swap card easy, but I mean, people make way over-exaggerate how hard it is to get the info and use it IMO.
 
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Panajev2001a

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So the SSD customizations that everyone said you needed much faster to equal such as 6 lanes vs 2 lanes literally effects nothing. This like everything else will never be brought up again and the fanboys will just start heavy breathing to the next unexplored customization.
No, but we are happy to disregard that factor (lanes that influenced how they delivered bandwidth) and the priority levels (which is what you are trying to mention there) based on first year software… what drive did they test? It does not matter huh? What did they optimise for (how much has been left on the table still?)? Again, no question or data matters if we can trivialise it and point and laugh I guess.
 
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No, but we are happy to disregard that factor (lanes that influenced how they delivered bandwidth) and the priority levels (which is what you are trying to mention there) based on first year software… what drive did they test? It does not matter huh? What did they optimise for (how much has been left on the table still?)? Again, no question or data matters if we can trivialise it and point and laugh I guess.
Read insomniacs tweet for the words they are saying. All your answers are right there.
 
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BlackTron

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Correction, it's Seagate's.

True lol, but c'mon -it's a Microsoft branded product, that works only with Xbox.

I'm pretty sure that Nintendo did not manufacture the N64 Expansion Pak themselves with their own factory, either.
 

BlackTron

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People are ridiculous in some ways. How hard is it to look up "recommended NVME ps5" and find a link from IGN or even Tom's Hardware to find a link like this:

Next, how hard is it to find a video on how to install it with or without a heatsink and how to put a heatsink on the drive, if you don't have one pre-attached, on Youtube with a search like to find a video like this one (which also shows you how to clean the PS5 inside):
(I searched "how to install an m.2 ssd in ps5 with heat sink" and set the search to the last 24 hours)

In the comments, he includes which Heatsink he bought on Amazon:

OK, so, what if you don't have a screwdriver?? Sony said you need a #1 crosshead? I searched "M.2 drive screwdriver kit":

Which, on my screen, also, shows items frequently bought together to be this kit, a 2280 NVME (happens to be a Samsung 980), and the heatsink the guy in the how to video bought.

I don't really think it's overly complicated. It's not XSX hot-swap card easy, but I mean, people make way over-exaggerate how hard it is to get the info and use it IMO.

I agree with you that right now, it isn't hard to do this at all, even for a layperson. However, I think the considerations that must be made at this point, do make it appropriate for a beta period.

By the time most people who are ever going to want to do this have a true need to do it, it will be even easier and there will be well-known drives that come with a heatsink that will just work without having to "make sure" of anything at all.

Remember, this is an option. It's not necessary to expand the storage to play every game that will ever come out for PS5. It's just for convenience and hoarders.
 

YCoCg

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Not revisionist history, yeah a few ways to get it wrong back then but more ways to now. Not saying it will happen but it could happen to a lot of people. Sony need to be as CLEAR as they can be about what you need to do
But in all honesty the same thing will happen now as it did back then, WE WILL READ THE REVIEWS, you always knew if a drive was ok or not as there would be a handful of comments specifically saying "works on PS3!", "Got this is my PS4", etc.

Once the firmware is out to the public it won't be long before reviews will start mentioning if they've worked in their PS5 or not.
 

Darklor01

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I agree with you that right now, it isn't hard to do this at all, even for a layperson. However, I think the considerations that must be made at this point, do make it appropriate for a beta period.

By the time most people who are ever going to want to do this have a true need to do it, it will be even easier and there will be well-known drives that come with a heatsink that will just work without having to "make sure" of anything at all.

Remember, this is an option. It's not necessary to expand the storage to play every game that will ever come out for PS5. It's just for convenience and hoarders.
I agree with what your points are on the whole.

Personally, I don't know that I 100% agree that it's for convenience or hoarders under every circumstance. I mean, I have some bad habits about what games I start and don't complete and do not necessarily want to have to move on and off story. Outside of that, let's say that you want Call of Duty on your internal PS drive or drives, and play all the modes, the sizes for storage are getting if not are already ridiculous. I can't imagine Battlefield 2042 not suffering from some of these issues. That's two games which might take up most if not all of the internal storage IF you wanted to play the current gen version. If I'm right about Battlefield, that is more than just a graphical difference, it's literally that the current gen versions have larger maps and player base per match.

All that said, I do think, less than 1TB is too small, and almost instantly makes a decent or good case for wanting or needing the additional storage.
 

cyber69

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For everybody who is quoting Sony have always done this and you could swap the hard drive since PS3, yeah that’s right but you couldn’t really go wrong in buying a hard drive as there was only 2 speeds available. The average consumer wont know that there are loads of differing speeds to SSD’s and that COULD cause a problem With purchasing. We’ll see soon enough once its opened up outside the BETA testers as if this strategy pays off.

Also with those saying about the sticker on a box which is an awesome idea but do you think Sony will let them advertise a product with PlayStation in the advert or box for free? There will always be a charge for that

I doubt the average consumer will even attempt to take the panels off the PS5 to install an additional drive. In my case (and I assume most people on this forum) will prefer Sony's strategy as the process of opening up a consumer device is trivial if you're somewhat informed. With that said, Microsoft also isn't wrong in this case. The positive to Microsoft's approach with proprietary storage is that it is dummy proof.
 
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phil_t98

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But in all honesty the same thing will happen now as it did back then, WE WILL READ THE REVIEWS, you always knew if a drive was ok or not as there would be a handful of comments specifically saying "works on PS3!", "Got this is my PS4", etc.

Once the firmware is out to the public it won't be long before reviews will start mentioning if they've worked in their PS5 or not.
We’ll see. Like I said befor there are more options to get wrong with the SSDs than there was back when people swapped hard drives of the previous consoles. I hope I am wrong but let’s see.

hopefully your right
 

Darklor01

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I doubt the average consumer will even attempt to take the panels off the PS5 to install an additional drive. In my case (and I assume most people on this forum) will prefer Sony's strategy as the process of opening up a consumer device is trivial if you're somewhat informed. With that said, Microsoft also isn't wrong in this case. The positive to Microsoft's approach with proprietary storage is that it is dummy proof.
Personally, I disagree. I think that today's average gaming consumer will be pretty willing to take the panels off. Whether they can afford the upgrade in addition to the price is one thing, but I think more and more people are getting techie comfortable with performing simple upgrades or looking up how to do them and doing them.
 

hlm666

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Be interesting to see the loading times when someones sticks a slower drive in it, if it's only rejecting drives based on pcie3 ones like this should work. If that drive is only 15% slower than the internal they should just let people use a pcie3 one.

 
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reksveks

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Be interesting to see the loading times when someones sticks a slower drive in it, if it's only rejecting drives based on pcie3 ones like this should work. If that drive is only 15% slower than the internal they should just let people use a pcie3 one.


That's the one Tom Warren is hopefully getting today.
 

Bitmap Frogs

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Yeah, games that have 0 loading like Miles, Returnal or RE8 that has an actual screen and wait time on SX is no difference.

that’s a bad thing how? It’s not a raid setup.

Sony uses free bsd as the base for the ps4/5 firmware and if I recall zfs (bsd file system) uses something called virtual pools and again if I recall you can plug in drives (called vdevs) and they are just mounted and become part of the virtual pool, so the pool is treated as a single unit no matter the amount of vdevs attached. A lot of NAS use zfs.

So in a nutshell I was expecting the user upgradable ssd to be considered by the os as part of the main storage.
 

cyber69

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Personally, I disagree. I think that today's average gaming consumer will be pretty willing to take the panels off. Whether they can afford the upgrade in addition to the price is one thing, but I think more and more people are getting techie comfortable with performing simple upgrades or looking up how to do them and doing them.

I agree here. This falls back to being informed. Sony has a consumer product and they should do everything they can to reduce confusion. However, do you expect individuals to do their own due diligence? (I don't)
 
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Darklor01

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I agree here. This falls back to being informed. Sony has a consumer product and they should do everything they can to reduce confusion. However, do you expect individuals to do their own due diligence? (I don't)
I don't expect them to necessarily do it for themselves the hard way. I expect them to wait until easy to find videos and info can be found by Google/Youtube search and then, yes, use the info.
 

Bojanglez

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I don't expect them to necessarily do it for themselves the hard way. I expect them to wait until easy to find videos and info can be found by Google/Youtube search and then, yes, use the info.
Exactly. This is no different than the PS3 and PS4 really. if anything this is actually simpler as it is additional to the native storage and not replacing it like in the PS3 & 4.

Also it is something that is completely optional.
 
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MikeM

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Everyone fighting over SSDs. I'm just gonna sit tight and see what happens. DF will surely be on the beta list and will be testing our different drives for different first party games. Ratchet and Clank i'm sure will be the becnhmark game.