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Sony patent hints at 3D stacked chips with dual heatsink
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Insane Metal
Member
You do realize that's not the same right? Lol
Anyway I was abviously joking.
Anyway I was abviously joking.
Seriously Sony, how hard can it be:
That's fine if you're running a standard cpu which is 65c to 80c.
That kind of heatsink and fan is also designed around having at least 1 linear foot of airspace in a average sized case. Meanwhile consoles have airspace measuring a few inches.
Not to mention that wouldn't vent any heat away from the system and just circulate it inside it. In confined spaces you need to draw and from one point, over a passive heat sink and vent it out somewhere else.
So no, that thing would do you no good and probably just allow the chips to overheat.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Yeah, but should that always be the goal?
And from the link above.....
Compared to this traditional 2D architecture, 3D ICs provide several significant advantages:
1. Footprint
Obviously, stacking multiple dies atop one another produces a chip that takes up less space than if those dies were side by side. If the layers are aggressively thinned, a multi-layer 3D-IC is actually no thicker than a traditional 2D chip. The tiny size of 3D-ICs is extremely valuable in miniaturized devices such as cell phones and IoT applications.
2. Speed
Dies stacked in a 3D chip are much closer together than chips on a circuit board. The shorter distances allow electronic signals to travel more quickly from one component to another. 3D stacked devices have shown as much as 5x speed improvement over comparable 2D solutions.
3. Power
Shorter connections automatically require less power, but 3D ICs have another power-saving trick. When an electronic signal travels from one chip to another, it passes through special circuitry that screens out any accidental electrostatic discharge (ESD). These ESD filters consume energy. Signals that travel from one layer to another within a 3D-IC do not require ESD checks. Tests have seen as much as 90% reduction in power consumption.
4. Heterogeneous Integration
Because the layers in a 3D IC are manufactured separately, they can be built differently. This is more important than it might seem! The process in which a die is built affects the behavior of the components on that die: one process makes better capacitors, another makes faster transistors, etc. Even more interesting, the layers may be built at different process nodes – that is, the electronic components may differ in size. This affects the cost, complexity, and performance of each layer. It is even possible to stack layers that are built of different materials. All of these possibilities mean that a 3D IC can combine the best of each process, node, and substrate without compromising some components to accommodate others. In fact, a multi-die stack can contain combinations that are flatly impossible to achieve on a 2D chip.
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phil_t98
#SonyToo
well the cost is massive isn't it? I mean the super fast SSD isn't gonna be cheat either, this will easy be 450 cost wise or more
ZywyPL
Banned
All of this depends on the case design, which Sony is free to design as they wish. All in all, that's more or less what X1X uses and well, it just works.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
You're probably right. It's why I think the PS5 will cost $500 and it still may not break even until someone buys 1 game.
phil_t98
#SonyToo
I just think with fancy cooking like that comes a cost. Wouldn’t vapour cooling like the X uses be cheaper? New tech comes at a cost I get that but some things don’t need to be reinvented for the sake of reinventing it
MasterCornholio
Member
MasterCornholio
Member
Nickolaidas
Member
That only happens because he doesn't take that left turn to Albuquerque.
Anyways, I'd like some help with Cerny's speech ...
The part I need help with is in 34:00, where Cerny talks about the heating issues of the previous consoles and their goals forward.
Can someone tell me if both those 'graphs' are referring to the PS4, or if the second one is referring to the PS5? I have a hard time understanding whether Cerny means that this is fan noise they're targeting for the PS5, or if that was the optimal fan noise they were targeting for the PS4 Pro.
Basically I want to know if Cerny implies that the PS5 will be quieter than the 2nd graph's fans, or if that (2nd graph) is the fan noise they're targeting for the PS5.
Die Namek Ability
Member
That only happens because he doesn't take that left turn to Albuquerque.
Anyways, I'd like some help with Cerny's speech ...
The part I need help with is in 34:00, where Cerny talks about the heating issues of the previous consoles and their goals forward.
Can someone tell me if both those 'graphs' are referring to the PS4, or if the second one is referring to the PS5? I have a hard time understanding whether Cerny means that this is fan noise they're targeting for the PS5, or if that was the optimal fan noise they were targeting for the PS4 Pro.
Basically I want to know if Cerny implies that the PS5 will be quieter than the 2nd graph's fans, or if that (2nd graph) is the fan noise they're targeting for the PS5.
Well if you look closely at the images both are PS4s. I think hes saying if you implemented the PS5s tech in the PS4 it would be way less noisy and standard across all systems.
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Craig of War
Banned
Yeah Expensive SSD and dual heat sink and state of the art controller yeah PS5 finna cost 500 plus
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Sota4077
Member
Literally nothing, but people on here are going to blow it up into some console war bullshit guaranteed.
Agnostic2020
Member
Yea i will also be surprised if ps5 is below 500. Fastest ssd on market and expensive cooling system and noise canceling dual sense and zen2 and 16 gb gddr6 does not come cheap
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SonGoku
Member
Is it possible to stack GDDR6 chips this way?That solution wouldn't allow them to stack other chips on top of the main chip
Tripolygon
Banned
This wouldn't be the first Sony console to employ 3D stacking. PSP also used 3D stacking and it is used all the time for NAND manufacturing.
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Did you read the 4 things that stacking adds? Do you think that's reinventing "just for the sake of it"?
Andrew Korenchkin
Member
Thanks, appreciate the detailed answer.
CrysisFreak
Banned
So explain to someone like me who doesn't know or really care about cooling.
Does this indicate that PS5 may potentially have a strong cooling system?
Does this indicate that PS5 may potentially have a strong cooling system?
phil_t98
#SonyToo
Ok what are the advantages of it compared to traditional cooking? So let’s put it against vapour cooling or traditional fan cooling? Am curious
MasterCornholio
Member
Why develop something new if something old is enough?
Sony would be dumb to spend alot researching and developing a new cooling system if the more traditional ones meet their goals for the system.
Just seems like a waste of money to me if there are no benefits.
Craig of War
Banned
Yeah well i ain't buying it for 500 not in this pandemic economy
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
1. Footprint
Obviously, stacking multiple dies atop one another produces a chip that takes up less space than if those dies were side by side. If the layers are aggressively thinned, a multi-layer 3D-IC is actually no thicker than a traditional 2D chip. The tiny size of 3D-ICs is extremely valuable in miniaturized devices such as cell phones and IoT applications.
2. Speed
Dies stacked in a 3D chip are much closer together than chips on a circuit board. The shorter distances allow electronic signals to travel more quickly from one component to another. 3D stacked devices have shown as much as 5x speed improvement over comparable 2D solutions.
3. Power
Shorter connections automatically require less power, but 3D ICs have another power-saving trick. When an electronic signal travels from one chip to another, it passes through special circuitry that screens out any accidental electrostatic discharge (ESD). These ESD filters consume energy. Signals that travel from one layer to another within a 3D-IC do not require ESD checks. Tests have seen as much as 90% reduction in power consumption.
4. Heterogeneous Integration
Because the layers in a 3D IC are manufactured separately, they can be built differently. This is more important than it might seem! The process in which a die is built affects the behavior of the components on that die: one process makes better capacitors, another makes faster transistors, etc. Even more interesting, the layers may be built at different process nodes – that is, the electronic components may differ in size. This affects the cost, complexity, and performance of each layer. It is even possible to stack layers that are built of different materials. All of these possibilities mean that a 3D IC can combine the best of each process, node, and substrate without compromising some components to accommodate others. In fact, a multi-die stack can contain combinations that are flatly impossible to achieve on a 2D chip.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Double heat sink? Make sure you don't anything flammable nearby.
Dial back the theatrics, especially after the trolling bait.
Tripolygon
Banned
I see one obvious advantage. The majority of the heat produced by a chip is because of the movement of data between transistors. The interconnect that connects each transistor is usually at the bottom layer of a chip and traditional cooling systems cool from the top. This patent devices a way to cool from the bottom with a big heatsink as well as cooling from the top as well. If they are stacking memory on the top layer, it provides an effective way to cool the memory on the top layer as well as other parts of the chip in the bottom layer.
This is all just assuming they are using 3D stacking and this patent. I however believe they would use a regular vapor chamber cooling.
RaySoft
Member
That only happens because he doesn't take that left turn to Albuquerque.
Anyways, I'd like some help with Cerny's speech ...
The part I need help with is in 34:00, where Cerny talks about the heating issues of the previous consoles and their goals forward.
Can someone tell me if both those 'graphs' are referring to the PS4, or if the second one is referring to the PS5? I have a hard time understanding whether Cerny means that this is fan noise they're targeting for the PS5, or if that was the optimal fan noise they were targeting for the PS4 Pro.
Basically I want to know if Cerny implies that the PS5 will be quieter than the 2nd graph's fans, or if that (2nd graph) is the fan noise they're targeting for the PS5.
He was talking about possible scenarios that could happen if they didn't get the cooling solution right. At the time they designed the cooling solution for the PS4 they couldn't know how much games in 7 years would push the hardware, so if they didn't get it right the machine would sound like God of War on PS4;-) This is why they went with a more dynamic approach for PS5, so the hardware can adjust on a case by case use. (variable frequency)
Hawking Radiation
Member
Thanks for posting this.Painted it to better see what is what.
green - PCB
orange - heatsink/heatpipes
blue - main chip with housing
Basically chip is placed not on PCB but on heatplate that heatplate has miniheatpipes coming throught it on other side of pcb where lies heatsink with fins. center of chip is used to cool via heatplate and PCI lanes go around the rim of chip. Consoles don't need a lot of PCI lanes so it is perfectly reasonable that a lot of underside is without PCI lanes unlike something like PC chip. Then there is other heatsink which lies on top of housing with paste in traditional way.
neat design, but i doubt it would poliferate to PC as PC chips have massive amount of PCI lanes and there is simply no space for heatplate. With such setup you can cool chip from two sides which is especially important for 3D stacked chips.
What does this mean for packaging?
Can we expect a small form factor console or are we looking at a large box like Series X?
SonGoku
Member
I don't think they'll separate I/O from the main die (APU) for performance/latency gains its better to keep it on die. SSD/SRAM though could fit this purpose further reducing latency
It would be awesome if they found a way to put GDDR6 chips on top but that doesn't sound plausible right?
EventHorizon
Member
That depends. It is trading a higher cooling expense for a lower APU expense. This design allows Sony to use an APU with fewer CUs but run it faster.
Deyjandi_Von
Member
yurinka
Member
Does this design mean that there won't be a jet engine fan on top of the APU? I mean, do this mean that they replaced the traditional fan for heatsinks?
If true it would mean that it will be super silent.
It spreads the heat more efficiently through all the surface so your sausages are cooked better from both sides at the same time, so they get a bit crunchy but tasty and tender, requiring less secret bbq sauce.
If true it would mean that it will be super silent.
It spreads the heat more efficiently through all the surface so your sausages are cooked better from both sides at the same time, so they get a bit crunchy but tasty and tender, requiring less secret bbq sauce.
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mitchman
Gold Member
They might work, but it would be more noise at the very least.
Dontero
Banned
That is how Ryzen3600 operate. They have die for I/O and die for cores.
Stacking cache would actually improve latency not lower it as road to cache would be shorter not longer.
No you can't stack GDDR6 it is simply to big compared to chip.
Housing is metal box containing chip to better conduct heat and protect chip from being broken by pressure of heatsink.
Dual cooling solution here means that they have issues with heat dissipation and it means it won't be slim console. IT might be possible that it will be bigger volume wise than SEX. As heat generated is not linear but squared when you increase frequency. It has lower CU amount so this is kind of offset but from my experience a lot of slower clocked CU should run a lot cooler than fewer but higher clocked.
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TimFL
Member
What about 2? I think this is confirmation that the PS5 has stacked GPU, coming in at 20,4GHz now.
Dontero
Banned
Out of those only SSD is expensive. Rest are insignificant in unit cost.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
That's good to hear.
The SSD in PS5 shouldn't really be that expensive because Sony will have their own flash controller
Daniel_Mallorca1985
Member
yurinka
Member
Thanks, Captain Obvious. PS5 is a console, not a tower.
It isn't a cheesecake. #PS5
Poor FUD attempt.
The whole console hardware architecture is designed since the start around that overclocking boost while at the same time to control overheat better than in traditional systems by keeping always the same temperature, by controlling the frequency boost depending on CPU & GPU activity instead of temperature and applying an innovative cooling system that we saw patented in the OP.
These are key main architecture design choices, not last minute tweaks.
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Virex
Banned
Don't make me ban you. Final warning
GlassAwful
Member
I don't understand why this patent is floating around again, it was already discussed and determined to be a big nothingburger.
It has nothing to do with 3d stacked chips. The reason for the design is spelled out for you in the first paragraph... It simply allows them freedom to place components on either side of a circuit board to aid in laying out components how they like. So now a Blu Ray reader can slot just above the APU.. in theory. Or if you need additional cooling, yea you could put a 2nd heatsink on top if you like, but the patent doesn't say anything about that.
Basically, this should let them more tightly pack components together.
That is, if the device being cooled doesn't need as good of cooling as a traditional direct heatsink... because I'm telling you, this design will be considerably less efficient at cooling because the heat has to transfer through the PCB, which is itself a thermal resistance... which means some heat will get trapped in the walls of the conduits instead of sinking directly into a thermal paste/pad.
It has nothing to do with 3d stacked chips. The reason for the design is spelled out for you in the first paragraph... It simply allows them freedom to place components on either side of a circuit board to aid in laying out components how they like. So now a Blu Ray reader can slot just above the APU.. in theory. Or if you need additional cooling, yea you could put a 2nd heatsink on top if you like, but the patent doesn't say anything about that.
Basically, this should let them more tightly pack components together.
That is, if the device being cooled doesn't need as good of cooling as a traditional direct heatsink... because I'm telling you, this design will be considerably less efficient at cooling because the heat has to transfer through the PCB, which is itself a thermal resistance... which means some heat will get trapped in the walls of the conduits instead of sinking directly into a thermal paste/pad.
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SonGoku
Member
PSVITA too afaik
Im aware but they do so at a latency cost, besides the I/O isn't only used for CPU here its for the GPU as well. It won't be separate
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Ar¢tos
Member
I want to see this but in a spiral so it's not slanted!So this is why PS5 will have this form factor:
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