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(*) Sony PS5 Vs. Xbox Series X Technical Analysis: Why The PS5’s 10.3 TFLOPs Figure Is Misleading

Mar 4, 2020
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If the clocks are stable and the cooling is sufficient why would the XsX have issues?
You literally just proved my point. As Cerny stated, the PS5 will run at 2.23GHz a majority of the time, with the only time it downclocking being if a game pushed it to its absolute limit. So if the clocks are stable and the cooling is sufficient, why would the PS5 have issues? OP contradicted himself trying to paint the PS5 as a 9.2TF machine that is boosting to 10.3TF when Cerny himself literally said it’s not an overclock type boost.
 

Mass Shift

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This fanboy nonsense from both sides are getting ridiculous. Infographs and mile long post why his favorite box is better than the other, when no-one has seen a single side-by-side comparisons.

Series X will most probably be my multiplatform machine and PS5 for exclusives, but I’m already starting to see the DF articles of head to heads with games looking fully identical and running at same framerate: ”THOSE LAZY DEVELOPERS NOT TAKING ADVANTAGE OF MY 1.7 TERAFLOPS REEEEE”
Likely more than that as many of us have begun to gather the more we look at what Sony and Cerny have done with respect to the PS5's engineering. The things they've done with the SSD, it should run exceptionally well at 9.2TFs.

It isn't very likely that developers are going to be pushing the PS5 at 10.2. If they did there would have to be a tremendous benefit for doing so.
 
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48086

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This fanboy nonsense from both sides are getting ridiculous. Infographs and mile long post why his favorite box is better than the other, when no-one has seen a single side-by-side comparisons.

Series X will most probably be my multiplatform machine and PS5 for exclusives, but I’m already starting to see the DF articles of head to heads with games looking fully identical and running at same framerate: ”THOSE LAZY DEVELOPERS NOT TAKING ADVANTAGE OF MY 1.7 TERAFLOPS REEEEE”

It’s going to be Assassins’s Creed Unity ad nauseum.
You're cards are showing.
 

FMX

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I am an Xbox guy through and through. The only Playstation system that I have ever owned was a PS3 and their exclusives have never appealed to me.. I am coming the perspective that Sony isn't stupid enough to cut corners on the PS5. They have always made good products across the board. If the bean counters told them that the system had to cost x amount-then they engineered the best product they could for the price they wanted to sell it for. It doesn't have to beat the Xbox it just has to be bigger and better than the PS4. Do you all really think that they would push out some crap when the Playstation brand is Sony's bread and butter. Again it only has to be bigger and better than the PS4. I don't plan on buying one but let's be real here Sony has never been in the business of putting out crappy products. The PS5 will be a premium product--whether you are a fanboy or not we can all agree on that at least.
 

Johnglen

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That's interesting as the Eurogamer article seems to suggest otherwise "Those frequencies are completely locked and won't adjust according to load or thermal conditions" unless i'm misunderstanding (which is quite possible)
Eurogamer also wrote that you can’t have both the CPU and GPU running at full speed at the same time. Also if these frequencies are completely locked why the use of the word variable by Sony ?
 
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Agnostic2020

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Lol u created bunch of nonsense . 10% is not gpu drop power. He said 2% drop in clock frequency reduces the electrical power draw by 10% so cooling solution doesn't kick in hard.

U went and reduced the gpu power by 10% by misunderstanding the quote and even then he said extremely rarely it happens lol .wtf

Some Xbox fans are losing it no devs is endorsing xsx today and yesterday so they create their own charts and alternative reality . It will be OK. Devs will say good thing about xsx soon.
 

Piku_Ringo

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Id ignore someone too if they didn’t blindly believe what I said all because I typed out a novel full of misinterpretations. Ignored.


I am an Xbox guy through and through. The only Playstation system that I have ever owned was a PS3 and their exclusives have never appealed to me.. I am coming the perspective that Sony isn't stupid enough to cut corners on the PS5. They have always made good products across the board. If the bean counters told them that the system had to cost x amount-then they engineered the best product they could for the price they wanted to sell it for. It doesn't have to beat the Xbox it just has to be bigger and better than the PS4. Do you all really think that they would push out some crap when the Playstation brand is Sony's bread and butter. Again it only has to be bigger and better than the PS4. I don't plan on buying one but let's be real here Sony has never been in the business of putting out crappy products. The PS5 will be a premium product--whether you are a fanboy or not we can all agree on that at least.
Even if they did cut corners for cost, it shouldn't really matter to you anyway. You are already going to buy a better quality more powerful product from the competition regardless.
 
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Clear

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Getting kinda bored of these articles written by people who've never coded a damn game in their lives and thus are blissgully ignorant of how difficult it is to sustain maximum resource utilization on a microsecond-by-microsecond basis.

Its cringe inducing. Its about more than just "trading card" values like Tflops and CU count. Yes, they are indicative of capability, but its not a situation where its a "just tweak appropriate of stats to win" -type of deal. Its way more complex than that because there are so many concurrencies to think about and respond to.

The thrust of Cerny's talk was to tell devs they've designed PS5 to be as frictionless as possible. That means a hardware strategy about avoiding inefficiencies, and gaining in both real-world performance and dev-time savings as a result.

That's what devs at GDC want to hear.
 

longdi

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You literally just proved my point. As Cerny stated, the PS5 will run at 2.23GHz a majority of the time, with the only time it downclocking being if a game pushed it to its absolute limit. So if the clocks are stable and the cooling is sufficient, why would the PS5 have issues? OP contradicted himself trying to paint the PS5 as a 9.2TF machine that is boosting to 10.3TF when Cerny himself literally said it’s not an overclock type boost.
Cerny is not beyond spewing self serving BS

"One of the features appearing for the first time is the handling of 16-bit variables - it's possible to perform two 16-bit operations at a time instead of one 32-bit operation," he says, confirming what we learned during our visit to VooFoo Studios to check out Mantis Burn Racing. "In other words, at full floats, we have 4.2 teraflops. With half-floats, it's now double that, which is to say, 8.4 teraflops in 16-bit computation. This has the potential to radically increase performance."
While Microsoft has promised that the Scorpio will be able to achieve native 4K gaming with ‘just’ 6 teraflops, Mark Cerny believes that rendering in native 4K will require at least 8 teraflops of computing power. Although this is merely a “personal estimate” from Cerny, it’s an interesting one at the least.
Cerny added that this “technology” wasn’t something that could be achieved this year at a reasonable price.
Cerny wouldn’t speak much to Sony’s controversial decision to leave out a 4K Blu-ray player in the PS4 Pro, which means it won’t be to play movies on discs as the Xbox One S can. Citing Sony Interactive Entertainment CEO Andrew House, Cerny said the future is in services like Netflix. "What we’re seeing is the consumer behavior is streaming," he said. "Having 4K streaming with PS4 Pro is very natural." Cerny would not elaborate as to what benefits removing the disc functionality provides.
 

DonkeyKong

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Eurogamer also wrote that you can’t have both the CPU and GPU running at full speed at the same time. Also if these frequencies are completely locked why the use of the word variable by Sony ?
OK thanks, I didn't see that bit in the article, only the part that microsoft stress the clocks are locked
 

SenjutsuSage

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Xbox fans, sorry to piss on your party but the XsX may not have more performance than PS5, as I suspected was the case and echos what an industry inside hinted at on here:



This reality is slowly being disseminated after the premature celebrating. Sony's strategy with the tech talk was piss poor though.
This is insiders 13TF all over again. There's a bigger gap between these two consoles than was there between Xbox One X and PS4 Pro. Remember what Microsoft was able to get out of Xbox One X, how it shot way beyond what people expected of it. What do people expect to happen with this insane thing they've built? I'm sure the same extensive game engine analysis and approaches they used for Xbox One X will have been amplified for Series X.

The games will pretty much put this one to rest. The PS5 isn't weak at all, and I won't dare suggest that, but the Series X quite obviously murders the PS5. Any sane person can see that in raw performance potential.
 

Genx3

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Why didn’t Cerny say it was locked
Cerny didn't say it was locked because it is not locked.
How fast the GPU can run will be totally dependent on how fast the CPU is running and how much information the SSD is transferring. There will be an even power curve that has to be shared by all the components in the PS5.
The only way the 2.23 Ghz clocks could be sustainable on top of that is if the PS5 is on the all New 7nm+ process.
We already know XSX is on the 7nmE process which can get you to 2 Ghz but unless PS5 is on the 7nm+ process it is unlikely that 2.23 Ghz is sustainable for more than short periods of time.
What are the chances that PS5 and XSX are built on 2 different processes? I say slim to none.
Physics > Cerny's words.
 

Johnglen

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As if it would be difficult for MS to put 1-2 of its own developers and 1-2 indie developers to write a few kind tweets, come on people. They don’t need it, the XSX doesn’t really need Twitter praising, its specs speak for themselves.
 
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This is insiders 13TF all over again. There's a bigger gap between these two consoles than was there between Xbox One X and PS4 Pro. Remember what Microsoft was able to get out of Xbox One X, how it shot way beyond what people expected of it. What do people expect to happen with this insane thing they've built? I'm sure the same extensive game engine analysis and approaches they used for Xbox One X will have been amplified for Series X.

The games will pretty much put this one to rest. The PS5 isn't weak at all, and I won't dare suggest that, but the Series X quite obviously murders the PS5. Any sane person can see that in raw performance potential.
Lol there's a SMALLER gap between PS5 - XsX than between Pro and One X, are you trying to pull the wool over people's eyes? How can anyone take you seriously with a line like that.

There's a tiny 16% gap on paper here, but the point is all devs and industry pro have said the same - PS5 is faster than the small flops disparity suggests, so deal with this reality and stop coming out with absurd claims.
 

longdi

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Cerny didn't say it was locked because it is not locked.
How fast the GPU can run will be totally dependent on how fast the CPU is running and how much information the SSD is transferring. There will be an even power curve that has to be shared by all the components in the PS5.
The only way the 2.23 Ghz clocks could be sustainable on top of that is if the PS5 is on the all New 7nm+ process.
We already know XSX is on the 7nmE process which can get you to 2 Ghz but unless PS5 is on the 7nm+ process it is unlikely that 2.23 Ghz is sustainable for more than short periods of time.
What are the chances that PS5 and XSX are built on 2 different processes? I say slim to none.
Physics > Cerny's words.
Exactly. I use back Shu famous words. 'Let them dream!'

Besides Cerny and Sony are too cheap to use 7nm+.
They prefer 36CU midrange parts over 52CU big boys.
Buy the cheap parts, do some tweaks, add colourful words and sell hardware for a small profit or no loss.
This is so boring and disappointing for a next gen.
No courage to change things up.
Even Apple tries to wow with hardware once in awhile
 
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There's a tiny 16% gap on paper here, but the point is all devs and industry pro have said the same - PS5 is faster than the small flops disparity suggests, so deal with this reality and stop coming out with absurd claims.
I am really not trying to be antagonistic but how can you say this? Every dev, every insider, everyone in the industry?
 

Romulus

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This is insiders 13TF all over again. There's a bigger gap between these two consoles than was there between Xbox One X and PS4 Pro. Remember what Microsoft was able to get out of Xbox One X, how it shot way beyond what people expected of it. What do people expect to happen with this insane thing they've built? I'm sure the same extensive game engine analysis and approaches they used for Xbox One X will have been amplified for Series X.

The games will pretty much put this one to rest. The PS5 isn't weak at all, and I won't dare suggest that, but the Series X quite obviously murders the PS5. Any sane person can see that in raw performance potential.
There isn't a bigger % gap between pro and X here.

Not to mention X had a massive memory bandwidth and RAM advantage. That's almost nothing now.

Ps4 and Xbox one actually showed a larger gpu difference in terms of TF, but we only got 900p vs 1080p.
 
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As for the PS5 gpu boost to get the system to 10.3tf, think of it like you vs. a basketball player.

Basketball player = 7 ft

You = 6 ft

You claim you can get to 7ft by jumping up and down all day, but you can only do that for so long before tiring out. And then it's back to 6 ft where you belong.
 

Dory16

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Well, I think 10.3 is very misleading because :

10.28 TFLOPs, 36 CUs at 2.23GHz (variable frequency)

it’s not 10.3, its 10.28. and also, most importantly - it’s variable frequency. That means it’s not locked and WILL get lower.
we don’t know yet when and how often, we will see. But acting like it’s constantly at 10.3 is factually wrong.
Also it uses much less CUs compared to XBOX SERIES X. This is a very important point.
There are several GPUs on the market where you can directly compare a higher clocked gpu with less CUs compared to a lower clocked GPU with much more CUs.
The one with more CUS is performing MUCH better.

For example:






Kudos for this real world example. Unfortunately we only see one performance metric. Are there any areas where the super FE outperforms the 2080 TI?
If not then Cerny outright lied on stage when he took a theoritical 36 CUS (overclocked) vs 46 CUs (underclocked) setup comparison and listed a bunch of graphical effects (I only remember rasterisation) that benefit from the low CU approach.
 

Romulus

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As for the PS5 gpu boost to get the system to 10.3tf, think of it like you vs. a basketball player.

Basketball player = 7 ft

You = 6 ft

You claim you can get to 7ft by jumping up and down all day, but you can only do that for so long before tiring out. And then it's back to 6 ft where you belong.
That sounds like a horrible comparison because 7 footers get dunked on like crazy by smaller, more athletic guys.
 

Jonsoncao

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As for the PS5 gpu boost to get the system to 10.3tf, think of it like you vs. a basketball player.

Basketball player = 7 ft

You = 6 ft

You claim you can get to 7ft by jumping up and down all day, but you can only do that for so long before tiring out. And then it's back to 6 ft where you belong.
I think this analogy is inaccurate.

Based on Cerny's words, PS5 can sustain 2.23Ghz for a while if CPU is a of lower frequency so that the total power consumption is a constant, even this means that the console will sound like a helicopter (unless using water cooling solution).

Reference: 5700XT's performance, which is also a 7nm card.
 
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CJY

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You literally just proved my point. As Cerny stated, the PS5 will run at 2.23GHz a majority of the time, with the only time it downclocking being if a game pushed it to its absolute limit. So if the clocks are stable and the cooling is sufficient, why would the PS5 have issues? OP contradicted himself trying to paint the PS5 as a 9.2TF machine that is boosting to 10.3TF when Cerny himself literally said it’s not an overclock type boost.
It's not just Cerny who said this either. It's DF as well. There are actually people on here trying to paint DF as Sony shills.
 

Fun Fanboy

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Man. The new Xbox is truly a beast. I can't wait for it to come out. What an exciting times ahead.

You literally just proved my point. As Cerny stated, the PS5 will run at 2.23GHz a majority of the time, with the only time it downclocking being if a game pushed it to its absolute limit. So if the clocks are stable and the cooling is sufficient, why would the PS5 have issues? OP contradicted himself trying to paint the PS5 as a 9.2TF machine that is boosting to 10.3TF when Cerny himself literally said it’s not an overclock type boost.
RRoD for the PS5 in the future would be wild!
 
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Lol there's a SMALLER gap between PS5 - XsX than between Pro and One X, are you trying to pull the wool over people's eyes? How can anyone take you seriously with a line like that.

There's a tiny 16% gap on paper here, but the point is all devs and industry pro have said the same - PS5 is faster than the small flops disparity suggests, so deal with this reality and stop coming out with absurd claims.
Yeah this is something the Xbox fans haven’t been able to answer. How is a machine that has less of a power gap between Pro and X supposed to equate to this massive performance gulf between 5 and XSX?


Kudos for this real world example. Unfortunately we only see one performance metric. Are there any areas where the super FE outperforms the 2080 TI?
If not then Cerny outright lied on stage when he took a theoritical 36 CUS (overclocked) vs 46 CUs (underclocked) setup comparison and listed a bunch of graphical effects (I only remember rasterisation) that benefit from the low CU approach.
Really? Cerny outright lied? Do you have proof or just throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks?
 

longdi

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Man. The new Xbox is truly a beast. I can't wait for it to come out. What an exciting times ahead.

RRoD for the PS5 in the future would be wild!
Or PS5 has to be needlessly expensive. You know for the gamers to pay for an exotic cooling when it was Sony making the cheapo mistake of using 36CU part, and had to do last minute 'tweaks'.
 

SenjutsuSage

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Lol there's a SMALLER gap between PS5 - XsX than between Pro and One X, are you trying to pull the wool over people's eyes? How can anyone take you seriously with a line like that.

There's a tiny 16% gap on paper here, but the point is all devs and industry pro have said the same - PS5 is faster than the small flops disparity suggests, so deal with this reality and stop coming out with absurd claims.
The gap is quite a bit larger and nobody with a brain will take that boost clock seriously when mark cerny already confirmed the worst case scenario (aka any truly AAA release that is expected to the push the system) will see the clocks drop on CPU and GPU. The 10.2 is window dressing. The GPU is most likely an entire teraflop lower than what's been reported. Who exactly is trying to pull the wool over people's eyes? Sony's boost clock claims are the very epitome of such.

For example, Jason Schrier's statement that both are beyond an RTX 2080 is patently false based on what we now know about the PS5. We still also have no confirmation of VRS and a couple other things from Cerny's deep dive. These two systems are just not in the same ballpark in terms of performance. It became obvious the moment those specs came out officially for PS5. Is the PS5 powerful? Of course it is, nobody would dare say it isn't, but it's quite a bit behind the Series X, and I don't think a credible person can state otherwise if they're being honest.
 
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Proelite

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The tflops for both are a bit PR.

PS5 especially so because 448GB/s is a huge bottleneck for a fast and narrow design. It has the same number of ROPS and same sized pixel and geometry engines as Xsx but they have 50% more bw stress due to higher clocks and slower access to main ram.

Xsx is also a bit bottlenecked but having more CUs is scales better than clock when it comes bandwidth usage. More CUs = more sram caches.

The GPU's will as best as their bottlenecks, so I expect the Xsx to be run better than the PS5 GPU by 25% on average.
 
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The tflops for both are a bit PR.

PS5 especially so because 448GB/s is a huge bottleneck for a fast and narrow design. It has the same number of ROPS and same sized pixel and geometry engines as Xsx but they have 50% more bw stress due to higher clocks and slower access to main ram.

Xsx is also a bit bottlenecked but having more CUs is scales better than clock when it comes bandwidth usage. More CUs = more sram caches.

The GPU's will as best as their bottlenecks, so I expect the Xsx to be better than the PS5 GPU by 25% on average.
Great post. I think your 25% on average prediction is spot on

I guess I’m mostly curious to see if the difference will be more apparent in resolution, graphics settings (high vs ultra, etc), or FPS
 
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SenjutsuSage

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The tflops for both are a bit PR.

PS5 especially so because 448GB/s is a huge bottleneck for a fast and narrow design. It has the same number of ROPS and same sized pixel and geometry engines but they have 50% more bw stress due to higher clocks and slower access to main ram.

Xsx is also a bit bottlenecked but having more CUs is scales better than clock when it comes bandwidth usage. More CUs = more sram caches.

The GPU's will as best as their bottlenecks, so I expect the Xsx to be better than the PS5 GPU by 25% on average.
I'm personally thinking 40%+ depending on the game in all honesty. I don't think these two things are comparable. And then people are overlooking the faster CPU like it isn't sitting there as the big ass elephant in the room. The slowest speed for the Series X CPU with SMT enabled is faster than the CPU on the PS5's high mark, a number confirmed as variable and traveling downward along with the GPU by Cerny himself when the system is really being pushed hard. I don't see how that type of system isn't at a much bigger advantage against what Microsoft has put together than people are willing to let on at the moment.

Those insane performance clocks on the CPU and GPU do not move. That's significant with the kind of performance we're talking here. When the game becomes more demanding, the PS5's disadvantage grows because the clocks will lower from what is advertised to us right now with the boost figures.
 
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Genx3

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Read between the lines son. I meant those on record.
Those devs are just trying to damage control Sony's terrible marketing.

There will be a real world gap of 1.9TF's - 2.9TF's performance in games.
That's a lot of computational work especially when you consider those are RDNA2 Flops.

My opinion is games will run similar but you'll get more Ray Tracing effects on XSX versions of games.
Just my opinion.
PS5 will be no slouch either.
 

Proelite

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I'm personally thinking 40%+ depending on the game in all honesty. I don't think these two things are comparable. And then people are overlooking the faster CPU like it isn't sitting there as the big ass elephant in the room. The slowest speed for the Series X CPU with SMT enabled is faster than the CPU on the PS5's high mark, a number confirmed as variable and traveling downward along with the GPU by Cerny himself when the system is really being pushed hard. I don't see how that type of system isn't at a much bigger advantage against what Microsoft has put together than people are willing to let on at the moment.
If PS5 doesn't have VRS 2.0 the difference will be 40%.
 
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The tflops for both are a bit PR.

PS5 especially so because 448GB/s is a huge bottleneck for a fast and narrow design. It has the same number of ROPS and same sized pixel and geometry engines as Xsx but they have 50% more bw stress due to higher clocks and slower access to main ram.

Xsx is also a bit bottlenecked but having more CUs is scales better than clock when it comes bandwidth usage. More CUs = more sram caches.

The GPU's will as best as their bottlenecks, so I expect the Xsx to be better than the PS5 GPU by 25% on average.
I don’t agree. I believe Cerny actually even addressed this point in the deep dive, I’ll have to go back and see, but from what I remember, by them placing the equivalent of 2 more Ryzen cores in the GPU with their scrubbers, they basically allow the filling and flushing of the caches to be almost instant which removes the bottleneck that you are referring to.
 

longdi

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The tflops for both are a bit PR.

PS5 especially so because 448GB/s is a huge bottleneck for a fast and narrow design. It has the same number of ROPS and same sized pixel and geometry engines as Xsx but they have 50% more bw stress due to higher clocks and slower access to main ram.

Xsx is also a bit bottlenecked but having more CUs is scales better than clock when it comes bandwidth usage. More CUs = more sram caches.

The GPU's will as best as their bottlenecks, so I expect the Xsx to be run better than the PS5 GPU by 25% on average.
Do we know PS5 uses same number of ROPS and TMUS?
 

Genx3

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I think this analogy is inaccurate.

Based on Cerny's words, PS5 can sustain 2.23Ghz for a while if CPU is a of lower frequency so that the total power consumption is a constant, even this means that the console will sound like a helicopter (unless using water cooling solution).

Reference: 5700XT's performance, which is also a 7nm card.
Isn't the 5700 XT's Boost clock only 1.9 Ghz?
That's boost not sustainable clock.
I personally believe PS5 will be built on the same process as XSX. If so 7nmE which can sustain 2Ghz clocks.
9.2 TF's sustainable with boosts up to 10.28TF's for short periods of time.
 

Proelite

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Do we know PS5 uses same number of ROPS and TMUS?
From Github, yes.

Am I allowed to say Github now?

I don’t agree. I believe Cerny actually even addressed this point in the deep dive, I’ll have to go back and see, but from what I remember, by them placing the equivalent of 2 more Ryzen cores in the GPU with their scrubbers, they basically allow the filling and flushing of the caches to be almost instant which removes the bottleneck that you are referring to.
I don't think Cerny is going to fix the fundamental nature of AMD's architecture that creates the bottlenecks.
 
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SenjutsuSage

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If PS5 doesn't have VRS 2.0 the difference will be 40%.
I think it nuts Mark Cerny would bring up Ray Tracing, Primitive Shaders, but say nothing at all of Variable Rate Shading (a very big deal feature) in a deep dive. I listened to that talk very carefully. And he essentially was prepping the viewers to not lock Sony down into any specific feature set based on whatever AMD may release on the PC side of things. He stressed that they chose their own path, and should specific things they've done, like their scrubbers as someone else mentioned, happen to end up in AMD PC hardware it means their collaboration together was all the more successful. He basically stressed that they are their own RDNA 2 custom, meaning it's entirely possible that not all features we may come to associate with RDNA2 should be automatically expected to be in PS5's Custom RDNA2.

As Digital Foundry said, there was also no mention of machine learning. Mark Cerny is a very, very detail oriented kind of person. I don't see him leaving these things out by chance or coincidence.
 
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One Big Room, Full Of Bad Bitches
I9.2 TF's sustainable with boosts up to 10.28TF's for short periods of time.
So, if this is ends up being the case, how would the boost really be helpful. Let’s say there’s an area of a game that needs the 10.28 TF, if I just stay in that area and never leave will the PS5 melt?