• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Sony's outdated Trophy policies are affecting achievement parity with other platforms

Andrefpvs

Member
Edit 2: More confirmation that Platinum rules have only changed recently:


Edit: Some PlayStation developers have chimed in, and apparently things have changed and every game now has the option of having a full trophy set without needing approval from Sony. Some might choose not to due to certification concerns, extra development and testing, or simple ignorance of how the system works. Please read this post, this post, and this one as well. They have some good info!

So if a newly-released game doesn't have a Platinum, it's probably the game's stakeholders' fault (developers, publishers, etc.).

The post below (now partially outdated) still contains some good information about how the PSN Trophy system is inconsistent, so give it a read if you'd like! Just keep the information above in mind.


______________________
Original post:

An increasing trend that I've been noticing since the new generation started is that it's become harder for PSN games to maintain parity with Xbox/Steam games when it comes to achievements. This is mainly due to Sony's (frankly) outdated rule that states that smaller, digital games must have a smaller trophy list (with no Platinum trophy), and bigger, retail games get to have a full list with a Platinum. *

However, in recent years, the line between digital "PSN games" and retail "full games" has started to blur (in terms of value, content, gameplay hours offered, etc.).

Microsoft realised this in the 2nd half of the Xbox 360's lifetime, and doubled the amount of achievements Arcade games could have. With the introduction of the Xbox One, this distinction between games is no longer made, with every game counting as a "full game" (eligible for a full 1000 Gamerscore), regardless of how it is distributed.

Meanwhile, Sony has stuck to their initial rules, which has resulted in many oddities over the years, as well as games shipping with less system-level achievements than their Xbox counterparts (and Steam as well, sometimes). As someone who enjoys pursuing these meta-objectives in games I like, it's kind of a shame.

The most recent and obvious example of this is Mega Man Legacy Collection, whose achievement lists came out today:



Total: 24 achievements


Total: 13 trophies (with 9 of them being the lowest possible rank)

The trophies missing from the PS4 version are already present in the other two platforms, so this isn't a case of Digital Eclipse not putting in the work to create more trophies. There just wasn't any space for more on the PS4 version.


When a developer tries to have the same amount of trophies in both versions of the game, the following happens:

<-- Xbox One
<-- PS4


...the value of the trophies has to be spread out, so the result is that every trophy is worth a measly bronze. Meanwhile, the Xbox achievements are worth full value. To be honest, I don't really care about how many gold trophies I have, but it's kind of dumb that the hardest trophy in the game is worth as much as the easiest.



* Now, I know that Sony has made some concessions in the past. If a digital-only game can prove that its content rivals a full game's (or if the developer is pushy enough), then it can qualify for a full list and a Platinum. The problem is that this is subjective and introduces inconsistencies.

---EDIT---

People are asking how I know this. I'm not an insider, the above is based on circumstantial evidence and what some devs have said in the past, such as:

http://www.futurlab.co.uk/velocity-2x-will-include-a-platinum-trophy.html

Velocity 2X will include a Platinum Trophy
by James @ FuturLab on January 30, 2014 in Game Design, PS Vita, PS4, Tease, Velocity 2X

In case there was any doubt, Velocity 2X will feature a Platinum Trophy, confirmed today by Sony. We haven&#8217;t thought of a name for it yet. Perhaps you could suggest one in the comments. Good luck trying to top &#8216;Show Thumb Respect&#8217; :p

Three cheers for Ben Andac for putting together its case within Sony, and a retrospective thanks to Lorenzo Grimaldi who managed to secure the Platinum for Velocity Ultra =)

They had to have people within Sony appeal for the Platinum.

According to Chubigans (developer of Cook, Serve, Delicious! and certified PS4 dev), this is no longer the case:

I do remember hearing about having to "fight" for your chance at a Platinum back in the day, but it's definitely not like that anymore.

---END EDIT---

For example, Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes can take around 20 hours to fully complete. It has 15 trophies, but no Platinum:


Meanwhile, Trine 2, a game whose trophy list can take as little as 30 minutes to complete, has 13 trophies and was allowed a Platinum:



It doesn't make any sense.

(For another example of inconsistencies, look up The Walking Dead Season 1 and The Walking Dead Season 2. Both games are exactly the same in structure, but the way the trophy lists are made is completely different)



My suggestion is simple. Every newly-released game should be allowed a full trophy list (with a Platinum trophy), as long as the developer can program in the necessary amount of trophies (that's +/- 1000 trophy points). No ifs or buts. No more inconsistencies. Sure, this might lead to some easy Platinums, but this is something that many retail games are "guilty" of as well
(Hannah Montana)
and most digital games nowadays provide a fair amount of content. Most importantly, it would guarantee that developers don't have to cut trophies from the PlayStation version of their game, or make them all bronze.

And yes, I know this isn't the biggest of deals, but I thought it was something worth being discussed, for those interested.


TL;DR: PlayStation games are getting less trophies (or less valuable trophies) than other platforms because Sony has stuck to their antiquated PS3 rules. Most games nowadays are frankly eligible for a Platinum, and should have one.

If you don't care about trophies/achievements, know that I truly respect your opinion (I even partially agree), but please consider not participating in this thread. Or, at the very least, please try to contribute more than a simple "Who cares?" :)
 

desmax

Member
And they even said Megaman Legacy Collection would have a platinum.

What a bummer, really wanted one
 

Toki767

Member
A lot of smaller indie games have a platinum trophy.

Hell, free to play games have a platinum trophy.

I think the lack of platinums are on the devs this time.
 

scott!

Neo Member
It doesn't actually bother me that much, since I never get more than a handful of achievements in any game. The biggest sense of (false) completion I get actually tends to come from games that have a pared down set of trophies.
 
Nothing bugs me more than when a game has a Platinum's worth of achievements on 360, but not Plat on Playstation. Like Ground Zeroes.

Nothing I tell you.
 

Demoskinos

Member
Its really weird Mega Man isn't getting a full set considering its also getting a FULL retail release in early 2016.
 

Sir TapTap

Member
There's no mandate that small digital-only games can't have platinum. I read from one of the Octodad team that there's an extra certification step though, and that's why they didn't do it...can't find it though. I swear it was on twitter.

They should kill the cert step though.

Vote with your wallet and buy the game for the system with the most achievements if that is what you want.

As like 99% of the time, "vote with your wallet" sends absolutely no relevant message here and you're better off just stating your demand. Buying a game on Xbox tells no party whatsoever that you wanted a platinum.
 

Einhandr

Member
I care about trophies/achievements and I agree with everything you said above: Sony's policies make no sense, and have actually turned me away from potential PSN "arcade" purchases before due to a lack of a robust trophy list.
 

bobawesome

Member
Strange that Shovel Knight, a game you can beat in a couple of hours, has a Platinum, while a collection consisting of six Mega Man games doesn't.
 

Eolz

Member
I'm not a fan of achievements, but I completely agree.
More trophies in different categories can also to some pretty interesting/creative achievement design too (finish X missions/get X stars isn't, but it's easier to do when you can't put more than that).
 

darkside31337

Tomodachi wa Mahou
There's no mandate that small digital-only games can't have platinum. I read from one of the Octodad team that there's an extra certification step though, and that's why they didn't do it...can't find it though. I swear it was on twitter.



As like 99% of the time, "vote with your wallet" sends absolutely no relevant message here and you're better off just stating your demand. Buying a game on Xbox tells no party whatsoever that you wanted a platinum.

Yeah this. I don't think this is a Sony thing as much as it is an effort (or lack thereof) from the folks making the games.

There are several digital only games with a Plat - two I can think of off the top of my head would be Rocket League and Infamous First Light.

And there are now retail titles that don't have one either. Like MGS:GZ.
 

UberTag

Member
I will actively go out of my way to purchase games with gimped trophy lists like the Megaman Legacy Collection on alternate platforms.

So yeah, achievement parity has an impact on where I spend my money.
 
That MGSV shout out, absolutely. That game has quite a load of content and if you're going for all the trophies, it's actually very time-consuming and even pretty tough. It absolutely should have had a Platinum.

Not a big deal to me, but hopefully something they address nonetheless. While it's kind of a small thing (again, to me) it's just another addition to the growing number of things Sony should fix about the PSN. It adds up.
 
I thought they said that it was getting a platinum. And I also thought that this rule had been moved away from, given that Ether One had a platinum trophy and less than MGSV:GZ.

This is weird.
 

Podge293

Member
the weirdest one for me is the Walking Dead telltale games....one has a platinum the other doesnt makes no sense
 

Sir TapTap

Member
Ground Zeros not having a plat is a super dick move. I think I've spent like 10+ hours in that game and I'm not at 100%. Probably platinumed several games in less than that like Transistor and Second Son
 

Roto13

Member
An increasing trend that I've been noticing since the new generation started is that it's become harder for PSN games to maintain parity with Xbox/Steam games when it comes to achievements. This is mainly due to Sony's (frankly) outdated rule that states that smaller, digital games must have a smaller trophy list (with no Platinum trophy), and bigger, retail games get to have a full list with a Platinum.

This isn't true. See: Your own examples. Whether a game has a big or small trophy list isn't forced on the developer. They get to choose.
 

wicko

Member
Their inconsistency has always bothered me. They seem to make it up as they go along. I don't see how it helps them in any way either, in fact it might even discourage some buyers who just want a platinum.
 

Storm360

Member
I can't stand sony's trophy policy, it's completely random how it's dished out too, and first party and PS+ games seem to get preferred treatment for platinums.

MGS V and Infamous First Light came out at the same time, Infamous First Light is a standalone DLC, MGS V was a full retail release, yet infamous counted for a platinum and MGS V didn't.

Time to sort out and have some damn consistency sony.
 

Toki767

Member
I wouldn't be surprised if some developers just thought a platinum trophy would automatically unlock. I know that's why Lumines on the Vita didn't have a platinum.
 
There's no mandate that small digital-only games can't have platinum. I read from one of the Octodad team that there's an extra certification step though, and that's why they didn't do it...can't find it though. I swear it was on twitter.

They should kill the cert step though.
That would be a rational explanation to this unexplainable phenomenon.
They still need to give devs more freedom though: there's no reason MM Collection should have less trophies than any other game or than on any other platform.
 

Sir TapTap

Member
That would be a rational explanation to this unexplainable phenomenon.
They still need to give devs more freedom though: there's no reason MM Collection should have less trophies than any other game or than on any other platform.

While Sony needs to kill the policy I'm kind of leaning toward Capcom being dicks in this case--an extra cert step is a relevant hurdle to an indie but Capcom? The fuck
 

FyreWulff

Member
Both platforms having arbitrary points values or limits on achievements at all is silly.

Just let developers add as many as they want and add more whenever they want.
 
Yeah, this is annoying. I first noticed it when comparing Jet Set Radio's Achievements and Trophies since I have that game on both platforms. Weird differences.

No Platinum either.
 

Skikkiks

Member
Odd because Guacamelee not only had a full trophy list and a platinum but even the DLC had its own trophies.

I think this is more of a dev by dev thing brought on by dumb Sony policies.
 

ZangBa

Member
The trophy system is weirdly inconsistent since a lot of smaller games have a platinum trophy, like Hotline Miami or Rogue Legacy. I doubt Sony will ever change this, they can't even manage to add folders to the damn UI after all this time.
 

chubigans

y'all should be ashamed
There is no rule. You decide (as a dev) whether your game should have a small trophy set or large trophy set, and can use a number of different "guides" in determining which route to go. But it's not forced nor is it decided by anyone other than the devs.

Given this is done by higher ups, they may have accidentally thought their game was a smaller one and ended up with the smaller trophy package.
 

Creaking

He touched the black heart of a mod
I don't care a whole lot about trophies, but I did find this annoying with Duke Nukem 3D: Megaton Edition. That's a full game and 4 expansion episodes and it only has a small handful of trophies.


I guess I'm also annoyed that they've got trophies for getting a jillion kills in the underpopulated and finicky Dukematch multiplayer.
 

dallow_bg

nods at old men
I don't get the rules because smaller digital ps4 games do have platinums.

So, dev issue?

Where's the proof its up to the devs to prove to Sony it deserves a full set?
 

Andrefpvs

Member
This isn't true. See: Your own examples. Whether a game has a big or small trophy list isn't forced on the developer. They get to choose.

Did you read all of the OP? I address that here:

Now, I know that Sony has made some concessions in the past. If a digital-only game can prove that its content rivals a full game's (or if the developer is pushy enough), then it can qualify for a full list and a Platinum. The problem is that this is subjective and introduces inconsistencies.
 

Wiggy

Member
This is mainly due to Sony's (frankly) outdated rule that states that smaller, digital games must have a smaller trophy list (with no Platinum trophy), and bigger, retail games get to have a full list with a Platinum.

Is there any source on this rule? It seem very inconsistent if so.


But I do agree that it should be easier for games to have a platinum.
 

darkside31337

Tomodachi wa Mahou
There is no rule. You decide (as a dev) whether your game should have a small trophy set or large trophy set, and can use a number of different "guides" in determining which route to go. But it's not forced nor is it decided by anyone other than the devs.

Given this is done by higher ups, they may have accidentally thought their game was a smaller one and ended up with the smaller trophy package.

Thanks for the clarification.

I figure adding trophies is not a trivial thing, it takes time to put them in and I suppose most developers don't think its worth it even from big companies like Konami and Capcom. I was kind of annoyed Dragon's Dogma: Dark Arisen had zero new trophies at all.
 

Dingotech

Member
OP is wrong.

It's nothing to do with Sony these days, they give devs the choice as to what they do with trophies.

Although the Galak-Z devs did say there was some extra certification if you go with a full platinum set.
 

Gren

Member
It's just another one of the many PSN account-related things (changing names, sorting download histories) they really need to address. I would imagine they're all related & it'd be a huge undertaking to fix, but it'll only get worse for them & their users the bigger PSN gets.

EDIT: After reading some replies, looks like I assumed incorrectly. So the Mega Man example is something of the dev's choosing? I don't really care about trophies, but I can see how it provides dedicated players (esp. for a MM game) goals that are a bit more tangible than just ones they set for themselves.
 
Top Bottom