• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Speculation based on trademark minutia: Nintendo NX to use cartridges

Vanillalite

Ask me about the GAF Notebook
Apr 14, 2008
39,999
1
0
GA, USA
There is no way NX has HDD; internal NAND like Wii U; and this will probably be the norm for the future; which I think is a good decision. If the point is no moving parts, low consumption, low failure rate, then no internal HDD.
512 gig HDDs in current consoles are already tiny. 64 gig internal NAND will last like a day in the current climate.
 

The Boat

Member
Sep 22, 2010
9,854
1
615
512 gig HDDs in current consoles are already tiny. 64 gig internal NAND will last like a day in the current climate.
512 GB HDDs are tiny because of mandatory installs, otherwise they're perfectly fine, at least if you're not going full digital.
 

Okami Haundo

Member
Mar 17, 2016
5,194
260
515
U.S.
512 GB HDDs are tiny because of mandatory installs, otherwise they're perfectly fine.
I was just about to say this. If they're using a media format that doesn't need to be installed somewhere first, they can keep the internal storage to a minimum. The only thing you would need it for are the OS and some save data, neither of which should need anywhere remotely close to that much storage space.
 

Skittzo0413

Member
Jan 8, 2016
9,666
1
0
Portable games cost less since there's a long standing expectation from consumers that they should cost less then console games, as well as typically having much smaller development budgets then console games. I'm sure publishers would love to charge more for portable games to make up the extra cost of the media if they thought they could get away with it.
Of course they would love to charge more, that's not the issue. My main point is that nothing deterred publishers from charging $40 for 3DS ROM cards when manufacturing even 4GB cards must have cost a great deal more than Wii U discs to manufacture, which MSRP for $60.

The logical conclusion we can gather from this is that cost of manufacturing the medium is not a major factor in MSRP. I don't see how that can be argued.
 

Vanillalite

Ask me about the GAF Notebook
Apr 14, 2008
39,999
1
0
GA, USA
I was just about to say this. If they're using a media format that doesn't need to be installed somewhere first, they can keep the internal storage to a minimum. The only thing you would need it for are the OS and some save data, neither of which should need anywhere remotely close to that much storage space.
Patches?
 

The Artisan

Member
Jul 13, 2014
22,632
1
610
As far as Blu-Ray goes, anyone who wants a Blu-Ray player already has one. You may have a point with 4K Blu-Ray, but Nintendo isn't one to pay licensing fees for a known disc format. It's part of the reason why they made their own knock-offs of Blu-Ray discs instead of using actual Blu-Ray discs for the Wii U.
well even if they have a blu ray player already it's just the convenience of having and using a machine that could include that feature as it's not too difficult too include. you have a point though i suppose it's not that essential.
 

Z3M0G

Member
Jan 16, 2012
9,748
41
585
Hybrid or two separate devices, we all agree that the console and handheld sides of NX will both most likely play the same game cards, right?
 
Jun 14, 2014
3,569
0
0
The average console attach ratio is around 8? How much space does the average patch take on PS4/XB1?

Enthusiasts can always spring for bigger drives/cards like with Wii U and 3DS.
If I recall correctly, Dead Rising 3 once recieved a 16 GB patch. And i'm pretty sure Halo 5 has recieved around 40GB of updates.
 

Okami Haundo

Member
Mar 17, 2016
5,194
260
515
U.S.
Hybrid or two separate devices, we all agree that the console and handheld sides of NX will both play the same game cards, right?
I can at least agree with you there! It makes too much sense as that would allow cross-buy/play for both physical and digital customers.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Sep 5, 2004
66,970
12
1,590
Arakeen
Of course they would love to charge more, that's not the issue. My main point is that nothing deterred publishers from charging $40 for 3DS ROM cards when manufacturing even 4GB cards must have cost a great deal more than Wii U discs to manufacture, which MSRP for $60.

The logical conclusion we can gather from this is that cost of manufacturing the medium is not a major factor in MSRP. I don't see how that can be argued.

Cost is calculated on what the market will bear. The manufacturing costs eat into profits and other budgets. The effect is invisible but very significant. Schedules are also important. As are overages and waste
If a game fails those costs are precipitous. If it succeeds can demand be met rapidly? MSRP is a tiny aspect of the overall consideration and in some ways a fixed item.
 

Okami Haundo

Member
Mar 17, 2016
5,194
260
515
U.S.
If I recall correctly, Dead Rising 3 once recieved a 16 GB patch. And i'm pretty sure Halo 5 has recieved around 40GB of updates.
Neither of those were on Nintendo consoles though. Based on previous history, I can't see Nintendo allowing patches that large. Third parties wouldn't be happy with it at all, but Nintendo could want to keep things family friendly. Waiting hours upon hours for a 40GB day one patch is not family-friendly.
 

geordiemp

Member
Sep 5, 2013
11,440
22,569
1,010
UK
If I recall correctly, Dead Rising 3 once recieved a 16 GB patch. And i'm pretty sure Halo 5 has recieved around 40GB of updates.
Destiny 50 GB updates...and just not one...

Carts would work for Nintendo, cant see it for many third party games (which probably wont bother Nintendo anyway)
 

ElFly

Member
Sep 3, 2006
16,567
0
0
Patches work on the 3ds cause the games are small.

PS4 and Xbone patches can be fucking mammoth.

If we are going off the idea that it would a cart that could be used for both the console and handheld HDD would be out cause you aren't putting an HDD in a handheld.

So now your talking about putting enough storage in the handheld to hold the patches for all of your games + room for any digital items.

How much storage would you need to make it feasible so you aren't gimped like an 8 gig Wii U, and how much does this add to the overall cost of the handheld.

Someone else in this thread brought up patching directly to the cards. I'll go back and find it.
Patches nowadays are several GBs, so devs would have to order carts that are at least 8GB+ what they need for the game.

That's not even considering when devs just seem to submit the whole game again as a patch. So basically you are looking at a situation where developers would have to pay upfront for the possibility of patching things, and also where you limit a lot what they can do wrt those patches.

An internal HD has a lot of advantages in cost to make this idea unnecessary, even if they put in a slow 5200 rpm in. OFC Nintendo just refused to put a decently sized harddrive on the WiiU but that was probably the latest generation they can pull that off. Well, they can always support external harddrives from the initial launch and put a measly flash memory for the most immediate needs.
 

Pokemaniac

Member
Mar 20, 2015
4,725
0
340
Neither of those were on Nintendo consoles though. Based on previous history, I can't see Nintendo allowing patches that large. Third parties wouldn't be happy with it at all, but Nintendo could want to keep things family friendly. Waiting hours upon hours for a 40GB day one patch is not family-friendly.
Eh, Nintendo would probably only disallow it if the game was unplayable without the patch. There isn't really any evidence that they enforce any real size limits on patches besides inherent system limits.
 
Jun 14, 2014
3,569
0
0
Neither of those were on Nintendo consoles though. Based on previous history, I can't see Nintendo allowing patches that large. Third parties wouldn't be happy with it at all, but Nintendo could want to keep things family friendly. Waiting hours upon hours for a 40GB day one patch is not family-friendly.
Oh of course and theyre not day 1 patches either. I was just commenting on xbox patches in general for the sake of harddrive size. I know Nintendo themselves keep patches and downloads failry small. Super Mario 3D World was under 2 GB for the full game download!
 

MacTag

Banned
Jan 5, 2016
2,315
0
0
If I recall correctly, Dead Rising 3 once recieved a 16 GB patch. And i'm pretty sure Halo 5 has recieved around 40GB of updates.
Those are two 1st party titles. What's a patch like for an average multiplatform game like COD or FIFA or Arkham or Just Dance, etc? Bonus what are patches like for those games on Steam/Origin/etc?
 

capitalCORN

Member
Apr 15, 2005
7,804
7
0
Those are two 1st party titles. What's a patch like for an average multiplatform game like COD or FIFA or Arkham or Just Dance, etc? Bonus what are patches like for those games on Steam/Origin/etc?
Whether first party or third party, why would that affect patch size? And we even started the discussion on DLCs.
 

Okami Haundo

Member
Mar 17, 2016
5,194
260
515
U.S.
Eh, Nintendo would probably only disallow it if the game was unplayable without the patch. There isn't really any evidence that they enforce any real size limits on patches besides inherent system limits.
Yeah, I'm really just speculating here. I can't see them allowing a patch that was larger than the on-board system memory at the very least. Full game downloads are a different story though.
 

Danny Dudekisser

I paid good money for this Dynex!
Oct 13, 2008
20,928
8,282
1,480
Carts, cards... whatever. I like them both more than discs. I'd be happy to see a return to them.
 

Neospartan

Neo Member
Jan 31, 2015
278
0
0
The average console attach ratio is around 8? How much space does the average patch take on PS4/XB1?

Enthusiasts can always spring for bigger drives/cards like with Wii U and 3DS.
Taking the info from this site:
PS4 Update Sizes

And removing the games without an update, the average ends up being close to 3 GB.
So, 30 GB of actual storage space should be enough. Give the thing 64 GB to be sure and be done with it.
 

Avenger54321

Member
Sep 27, 2013
736
0
300
26
Cartridges huh? This will definitely be interesting to see. I doubt they will be as big as the old days maybe like the N64, but smaller.
 

Adam Blue

Member
Oct 5, 2007
1,920
0
0
37
Bedford, Tx
www.bluegamer.net
Load times, durability, no moving parts, card art, anti-piracy, smaller retail packaging, built-in special hardware, ETC.
There are some next-gen things that haven't happened yet. This console generation has just been about graphics.

In the past Nintendo introduces some cool standards, so I can see them doing this because of the benefits. Everything listed above is totally next gen. After the PSX gen, companies would boast about reducing load times and GCN was good at that. Then it disappeared and we have gone back to long load times.

For me, games need things like reduced load times and more interesting AI. With a cartridge, something akin to the Super FX can be implemented to future NX games, and Nintendo can even produce iterative hardware at a cheaper cost. The only thing about this is digital downloads. You can't download an additional chip.

If saves are written to the cart and there is a Nintendo cloud save system (or there isnt which is why they have carts) you can have your save anywhere and even recover it if you lose a cart.

I really want Nintendo to come back like Sony did from the PS3. It sucks what happened to Xbox, but now we see them competing more. But Nintendo is the right company to compete in interesting ways.
 

farisr

Member
Nov 5, 2011
10,188
1
635
I think it'd be neat if it were to use cartridges. Especially if they release a portable system that'll run the games off the same cartridges.

While PS4 is pretty darn fast at getting the game going, having experienced the ps3 mandatory installs last gen and the xbox one this gen, it'd be nice to have a system that boots up right into the game with fast loading times without the need to install at all.
 

MacTag

Banned
Jan 5, 2016
2,315
0
0
Whether first party or third party, why would that affect patch size? And we even started the discussion on DLCs.
Well, because you probably won't see Halo or Dead Rising 3 on NX. DR3 is around 30GB total on Steam with 3GB of dlc, why is a 16GB patch really even necessary?
 
Jul 2, 2007
7,810
1
0
31
Chesapeake, Ohio
People keep saying third parties won't bother. If this does have some kind of handheld compenent and both devices play the same games, you can bet that most Japanese third parties will bother.
 

Vanillalite

Ask me about the GAF Notebook
Apr 14, 2008
39,999
1
0
GA, USA
Well, because you probably won't see Halo or Dead Rising 3 on NX. DR3 is around 30GB total on Steam with 3GB of dlc, why is a 16GB patch really even necessary?
Usually isn't 16 GB patch. It's more for evergreen titles that get updates overtime. Games like Destiny or now Overwatch will be constantly updated as it lives and breathes.

Plus all of the dlc.

It's more cumulative.
 

Okami Haundo

Member
Mar 17, 2016
5,194
260
515
U.S.
I think cartridges makes a lot of sense if the NX is what we think it is.

If it's not, then cartridges are a baffling decision.
If NX is just a box full of puppies and kittens (Nintendogs and Cats 2) then cartridges would make no sense at all. What would those adorable animals even do with cartridges?
 

Delusibeta

Banned
Feb 18, 2012
10,875
0
0
delusibeta.tumblr.com
I actually like this idea. If it means it doesn't need a 1tb hard drive inside. Each game is a relatively lower cost high capacity card, hopefully one with higher end transfer speeds.
That's actually a fair point: carts would have a substantially higher transfer speed, and so would probably not require installing the game, unlike the PS4 and Xbone.
 

Okami Haundo

Member
Mar 17, 2016
5,194
260
515
U.S.
People keep saying third parties won't bother. If this does have some kind of handheld compenent and both devices play the same games, you can bet that most Japanese third parties will bother.
I definitely agree with you there. I feel like those people you're referring to are referring to Western third-party devs. Japanese third parties will be all over NX in that case.
 
Mar 10, 2005
50,827
5
0
www.theimrankhan.com
People keep saying third parties won't bother. If this does have some kind of handheld compenent and both devices play the same games, you can bet that most Japanese third parties will bother.
Hm, really, though? The number of Japanese third parties that supported the DS has shrunk significantly with the 3DS. A lot of that is because there's just fewer Japanese third parties now. Konami's out of the game, Square-Enix mostly moved to mobile (and basically gave all their western publishing responsibilities to Nintendo), Sega fell out of experimental quirky ideas and just kind of coughed up some phlegm on the 3DS, etc.

Really, the third party heroes of the 3DS are Atlus, Capcom, and Namco and, should graphics improve to the point where making games on a new system is any more difficult or expensive than it currently is, that might not keep going.

The 3DS is much more of a Nintendo system than people seem to think.
 

MacTag

Banned
Jan 5, 2016
2,315
0
0
Usually isn't 16 GB patch. It's more for evergreen titles that get updates overtime. Games like Destiny or now Overwatch will be constantly updated as it lives and breathes.

Plus all of the dlc.

It's more cumulative.
Evergreen titles also tend to get updated rereleases though. Even from Nintendo sometimes with NSMBU now coming with the dlc on disc at retail now for example. Nintendo won't limit things to what the storage devices ship with either, it will be expandable as needed.
 

SwiftDeath

Member
May 31, 2013
23,627
0
0
An amount that would be a non-issue if the price was right.



Expect 30-64 GB game cards.
Huelen, this picture is terribly misleading.

Best I can tell it is from those responsible for maintaining the storage format specifications itself, not any actual producers of Micro SD cards.

http://sdxcs.com/

The largest Micro SD card currently is the 256GB by Samsung which just released this month.

There are no rumors of a larger capacity currently that I'm aware of so that image is suggesting that storage capabilities of up to 2TB are possible now when that doesn't appear to be the case. Simply because the specification allows for it doesn't mean it can be functionally produced yet.