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Square-Enix should look back on what made past Final Fantasies so good

TLZ

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But Final Fantasy X had a really shitty, brain-dead simple battle system.
It's hard to imagine that it's possible to have a battle system more basic than FFX.
That's what classic turn based is. That's how it should be and that's how it should've stayed.
 

RealGassy

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But the newer stuff only requires 1 brain cell .

And if it's requiring lots of brain cells to do a simple battle (that thing that's supposed to happen hundreds of times and be actually fun to do), then they're over-complicating it.
Why are you supposed to have hundreds of brain-dead simple battles in the first place, battling the same and same palette swapped monsters for the hundredth time?

It has taken the Japanese 30 years to figure out that random generic encounters suck - something that has been apparent to everyone from Day 1. And finally they are starting to disappear from JRPGs (or become optional).
Even the most regressive and conservative JRPGs (a la DQXI) have removed them.

It will probably take 30 years more for Japanese to figure out that "traditional" JRPG-esque 5-braincell based turned-based combat is A-button mashing timewaste and "nobody" likes it.
 
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brokenduck

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Agreed and same goes for many gaming franchises out there. I think next gen will be a gen where many classic games getting the remake treatment. I always think remaking games make way more sense than remaking films. There are just so many awesome games Pre 2005 that will benefit greatly from graphical enhancements with a more modernized UI. Just square alone have so many classic rpgs that can receive the remake treatment.
 

Belmonte

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Today, it is too risky to make a turn-based (or even ATB) FF with the ridiculously high budget the franchise is know for, since FFVII.

Many players think turn based is a relic of the past or other nonsense like it. This doesn't affect more niche titles but with the enormous cost of a FF game, they need everyone who has a little bit of interest in RPGs, no matter how faint, to play the game. So no turn based for us.
 

Mihos

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Bruh, Final Fantasy XIII-2 is absolutely fantastic and is my favorite FF game to date. FF X is ok but I don't think I will ever play it again, one and done for me. I guess it is up to personal preference, my top two are XIII-2 and Type-0, not many people feel the same and I played 1,4,X,XIII series, Tactics, Type-0, Dirge of Cerberus, World, XIV and XV most of which I completed. I enjoyed all of them myself. I think there is room for innovation as well as keeping to tradition, World is pretty much old school FF game with an added twist of stacking characters (which is pretty cool). We can have multiple FF games alongside each other.
I am a life long FF fan, and 13-2 is my favorite, also..
 
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Rhaknam

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Square should let Hiroyuki Itou out of their dungeon (what is he doing anyway?) and let him take a shot.
I would love to see another mainline entry by Hiroyuki Ito (Final Fantasy IX is my favorite) but I'm afraid that nowadays the games are being directed by new blood and it will likely stay that way.
 
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Rhaknam

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I wouldn't say fire. The guy is talented and contributes much to the success of the series. Although I don't like that Square Enix have made him and his aesthetic the "face of Final Fantasy."
I'm growing tired of seeing his designs dominate the creative direction of the mainline entries, if nothing but for the lack of variety.
Any time I think of Tetsuya Nomura I think of Kingdom Hearts and how awful the dialogue is in those games. I don't know how people can defend the writing as anything more than a bad anime. Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children was also terrible.
 
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Fictive

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This is like a broken ass record. Don’t you think they’ve read/heard/seen this thousands of times?

That aside, they’re still putting that same great taste with a new look in games like XI and XIV. Most of the base overlooks them because they’re not exactly single player, offline experiences.
 

SS501

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Any time I think of Tetsuya Nomura I think of Kingdom Hearts and how awful the dialogue is in those games. I don't know how people can defend the writing as anything more than a bad anime. Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children was also terrible.
Nomura doesn't do mundane heavy work like write all the dialogues. That's the job of Masaru Oka for the most recent KH games and Kazushige Nojima for KH1 and KH2.
Advent Children was also written by Nojima. FF7, 8 and 10 were also written by Nojima.

Stop blaming Nomura for every little thing you don't like.
 
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Rhaknam

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Nomura doesn't do mundane heavy work like write all the dialogues. That's the job of Masaru Oka for the most recent KH games and Kazushige Nojima for KH1, CoM and KH2.
Advent Children was also written by Nojima.

Stop blaming Nomura for every little thing you don't like.
He is still the director so I'm sure everything goes through him.
 

StormCell

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Why are you supposed to have hundreds of brain-dead simple battles in the first place, battling the same and same palette swapped monsters for the hundredth time?

It has taken the Japanese 30 years to figure out that random generic encounters suck - something that has been apparent to everyone from Day 1. And finally they are starting to disappear from JRPGs (or become optional).
Even the most regressive and conservative JRPGs (a la DQXI) have removed them.

It will probably take 30 years more for Japanese to figure out that "traditional" JRPG-esque 5-braincell based turned-based combat is A-button mashing timewaste and "nobody" likes it.
Okay, I've bolded the items I'm replying to and numbering my responses.

1. I didn't say the hundreds of simple battles had to be brain-dead. They should be simple, though. Simple can mean not having to go through a lot of leg work to get into one. You shouldn't have to spend 10-15 minutes searching for one of these battles. The battles are kinda the core mechanic of a jRPG (or any RPG except maybe The Witcher series). What is a good adventure game without a fun battle system, right? I call it a book or a movie if I'm just watching cut scenes. Additionally, it should be an engaging and fun experience. It should be basic enough that you don't feel like you're doing math homework but it should still require a bit of thinking that you feel challenged. I think Xenoblade Chronicles 2 is a good example of this. I can find plenty of monsters to battle, and the battle system is basic enough that I don't feel overwhelmed by it. There's some nuance and challenge to the combos, and there's some skill and luck involved in avoiding getting raped by big badass monsters.

2. I don't agree that all random generic encounters suck. I simply don't. It's totally dependent on the game to determine how random and how generic the encounters are. It's up to the game to set the value of all those encounters. If they're a total timewaste, then the game is a POS, EOS. Are we playing a video game or reading a book/watching a movie?

3. If "nobody" likes it, then why have these games been so popular? I would think that Final Fantasy and Pokemon would be some of the poorest selling game series, but they're not. In fact, the FF games people consider good cuts off at the point where the combat systems drifted from the turn-based style. Explain this.
 

SS501

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He is still the director so I'm sure everything goes through him.
And if he asks for the entire thing to be rewritten fanbase is going to blame him for being a "perfectionist" and that he "delays" games constantly.
There is no winning with this fanbase tbh you guys just want to blame individuals cause a faceless company as a whole just doesn't do it for you.
 

Rhaknam

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And if he asks for the entire thing to be rewritten fanbase is going to blame him for being a "perfectionist" and that he "delays" games constantly.
There is no winning with this fanbase tbh you guys just want to blame individuals cause a faceless company as a whole just doesn't do it for you.
People criticize Square Enix all of the time. Not sure why I'm not allowed to do the same with Tetsuya Nomura when he is the one leading his team of developers as the director.
 

sid2vicious

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Speaking of, Octopath Traveler > FF6 easily. Hell even Romancing SaGa games looks to be better than FF6.

On the other hand FF7 Remake looks better than any FF in the past 20 years, even if its only 1/3 completed. So I say they're doing pretty good for themselves, and should continue looking forward, not back.
 

DerFuggler

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If nothing else, I'd love to see Yoshitaka Amano return to do character designs. When playing the SNES FF games, I'd imagine the world looking similar to his illustrations. I've seen enough belt buckles and pristine Fabergé architecture for one life time.
 
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Cert.in.Death

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Keeping my fingers crossed that they go back to the whimsical charm ala FFIX and downplay the melodrama.

As for gameplay, keep emulating what you’re doing with FFVII:R and FFXIV.
 

kevin_trinh

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Just make a good story, good gameplay, good character, good music, good romance is a bonus.

Just don't follow the Dragon Quest step, this series is outdated
 
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SS501

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If nothing else, I'd love to see Yoshitaka Amano return to do character designs. When playing the SNES FF games, I'd imagine the world looking similar to his illustrations. I've seen enough belt buckles and pristine Fabergé architecture for one life time.
The only FF games Amano designed characters for was FF6 and even then he only did a few, the rest of the cast was designed by Nomura and Soraya Saga.
The previous entries didn't have their characters designed by Amano, he only did promotional illustrations for the already existing designs which is why people thought he designed them. He did promotional illustrations for FF7, 8, 10, 13 and 15 too despite not designing any characters in those either.

He did design monsters for the snes games though, alas most of them were heavily redesigned by the development team due to tech limitations.
 

NahaNago

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The soul of a game comes from the people working on it. That's why Halo will never be Halo again and Final Fantasy will never be what it was either. They've tried to approximate it with smaller projects but those don't recapture that magic either and Epstein didn't kill himself.
I've been thinking that it is more because of the limitations that they were working with that they were able to create those beloved games in the series from 6-9 (10 is alright).
 

FMXVII

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I've been thinking that it is more because of the limitations that they were working with that they were able to create those beloved games in the series from 6-9 (10 is alright).
Nah.

It was because the devs back then actually gave a shit.
 

MagnesG

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I just want a true FFT sequel. The game boy games were ok, but not as good as the original.
What about the DS sequel FFTA2, that was my favorite among the 3 actually. The job system was just so damn good I'm sad it being left behind.
 

FMXVII

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What about the DS sequel FFTA2, that was my favorite among the 3 actually. The job system was just so damn good I'm sad it being left behind.
Nah...

The classes were great.

Races were an impediment.

The story won't ever be as good as TWotL without a human focus.
 

NahaNago

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Nah.

It was because the devs back then actually gave a shit.
I can't really agree with that. We still get some of what makes final fantasy good in bravely default and ffxiv, but both of those had different kinds of limitations on them. You had the 3ds and the charming animations of an mmorpg.
 

cireza

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JRPG-esque 5-braincell based turned-based combat is A-button mashing timewaste and "nobody" likes it.
Replace it with action battles where you are still mashing A-button and we are good.

Actually try to finish Lost Odyssey by mashing the same button. You won't get anywhere.

Turn-based can be perfectly fine. You simply need to require some level of thinking for each battle, and more thinking for harder battles. This is not rocket science.
 

Tekkie

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I've been thinking that it is more because of the limitations that they were working with that they were able to create those beloved games in the series from 6-9 (10 is alright).
Limitations can certainly lead to creativity and some experiences are created because of those limitations, so there's definitely truth to that but you can't swap creatives out willy nilly without it ripping out the soul of what it was. Mario is still Mario after all, but Spyro wasn't Spyro after it changed developers in the PS2 era and the examples of this are endless really and this is not at all exclusive to gaming.
 

sonomamashine

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I just miss Final Fantasy actually being in a Fantasy setting. I'm tired of the futuristic stuff.
My man !
Looks like they lack inspiration, just throwing engine assets, mettalic shit and bases fucking metal gear rex robots wtf, i didnt play Ni no kuni but the world looks fantastic.
 
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FMXVII

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Oh hell no.
Octopath is tremendously overrated.
FF6 >>>>> [insert infinity symbol here] >>>>> Octopath >>>> the entire Romancing Saga series >> Sumo belly button lint >>>>>>>>> FF10-15.
 
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Petrae

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When Final Fantasy battle systems started significantly changing from traditional turn-based combat in certain games, I ultimately wound up strongly disliking or hating those games. FFVIII with the ultimatum of either drawing spells ad nauseam or playing that stupid fucking card game... Final Fantasy XII with its wannabe-MMO and Gambit systems... Final Fantasy XIII and its paradigms... and Final Fantasy XV’s “Hold A or the Cross button to win” system. I hated those.

Why fix what was never really broken? When developers decide to change shit because of what they think is “innovation”, there’s going to be a chance that players won’t like it.

Say what you will about Final Fantasy X, its dumb plot holes and dumber character designs... but, for me, that was the last of the games in the series that I (mostly) enjoyed. I loathed Blitzball, as I loathed the stupid card games in the two games previous, but I liked the battle system and its ability to hot-swap party members in and out of battle. After that, in my view, the series gradually devolved into utter shit to where I can’t even be bothered with the FFVII remake because of what I consider to be constantly boneheaded decisions by Square’s dev teams.

I’ve got the older games in the series that I enjoy, and I just revisit those when I get that FF craving.
 

HarryKS

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They seem to be doing alright with the FF7 Remake so far. Because they actually have a vision and care about it.
 

DW74

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Just can't picture anyone under the age of, say, 35ish even discussing this IP anymore. It hasn't been relevant in what, 13 years?

Square is long dead. Dust in the ground. Squenix is some pervy clown dancing around wearing a Squaresoft mask. Better RPG devs have stepped forward.
 
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NahaNago

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Limitations can certainly lead to creativity and some experiences are created because of those limitations, so there's definitely truth to that but you can't swap creatives out willy nilly without it ripping out the soul of what it was. Mario is still Mario after all, but Spyro wasn't Spyro after it changed developers in the PS2 era and the examples of this are endless really and this is not at all exclusive to gaming.
Spyro would be similar to one punch man studios switching between seasons there was a massive change in animation and feel. Limitaions from anime to live action half the time with all of the quirks being lost in translation to real life.

Just can't picture anyone under the age of, say, 35ish even discussing this IP anymore. It hasn't been relevant in what, 13 years?

Square is long dead. Dust in the ground. Squenix is some pervy clown dancing around wearing a Squaresoft mask. Better RPG devs have stepped forward.
who? jrpgwise?
 
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DW74

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Atlus? FROMSoftware? Namco? Monolithsoft? Intelligent Systems? Xseed? I'd also argue Tri-Ace, but only because they are a fav of mine for a long time now. Sega too. That's just off the top of my head.
 

FMXVII

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Come on, 10 wasn't so bad and 14 is great.
To be fair, I do not count 11 and 14 as actual numbered entries, despite the obvious.

And I tend to pretend that X-2 is a Gaiden, so I can still call it a good game.
 
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NahaNago

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Atlus? FROMSoftware? Namco? Monolithsoft? Intelligent Systems? Xseed? I'd also argue Tri-Ace, but only because they are a fav of mine for a long time now. Sega too. That's just off the top of my head.
I can't seem to get myself to buy persona since I never played the earlier ones( I really want a shin megami tensei game on console), no souls for me, Namco?, Monolithsoft I did buy the game but I never actually played since I never finished beating the first one on wii u, and wow I haven't played a fire emblem game since like the ds, I beat that star ocean game and then completely forgot about it.
 

FMXVII

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Ok, no, X2 is crap. We agree here. But X isn't that bad. A little too linear.
X-2 is a crap RPG, yes.

No argument.

But it is a great mechanics showpiece, reduced to crap, for its party size limitation of 3 active members... 6 members, and it could have been the J-Pop answer to OG Wizardry.
 

Petrae

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To be fair, I do not count 11 and 14 as actual numbered entries, despite the obvious.
I refuse to play MMOs. Between paying for the game and then paying more in perpetuity to keep playing the game I already paid for... that’s a dealbreaker for me.

I purposely skipped XI and XIV because of this, even if they may or may not be great games. It’s not necessarily rational to not “count” them as games in the series, which I understand, but that’s the way I see them.
 

Rran

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Speaking of, Octopath Traveler > FF6 easily. Hell even Romancing SaGa games looks to be better than FF6.
I love Octopath Traveler, but no. The story and cast in FF6 is simply far more cohesive and dynamic. OT has amazing visuals, combat and music but it's a bit too formulaic in its structure (town/dungeon/resolution). Still one of the best RPGs in years.

Just make a good story, good gameplay, good character, good music, good romance is a bonus.

Just don't follow the Dragon Quest step, this series is outdated
But Dragon Quest has a good story, good gameplay, good characters, and good music. Seriously, DQXI nails every JRPG fundamental there is.
 

FMXVII

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I love Octopath Traveler, but no. The story and cast in FF6 is simply far more cohesive and dynamic. OT has amazing visuals, combat and music but it's a bit too formulaic in its structure (town/dungeon/resolution). Still one of the best RPGs in years.



But Dragon Quest has a good story, good gameplay, good characters, and good music. Seriously, DQXI nails every JRPG fundamental there is.
I would agree on everything but the occasional cinematic.

Specifically the whole "Eric getting captured" one.

That was just straight pure godawful in its pacing and execution.

Like, Star Ocean 4 levels of bad.

But that is pretty much the only thing wrong with it, barring MC's hair.

But that also makes it all the more glaring of a flaw.
 

kevin_trinh

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I love Octopath Traveler, but no. The story and cast in FF6 is simply far more cohesive and dynamic. OT has amazing visuals, combat and music but it's a bit too formulaic in its structure (town/dungeon/resolution). Still one of the best RPGs in years.



But Dragon Quest has a good story, good gameplay, good characters, and good music. Seriously, DQXI nails every JRPG fundamental there is.
nah, the story is bs, especially act 3. Gameplay is outdated, UI/UX too. Calling Dragon Quest OST "music" is the disgrace of music. DQ 11 is completely trash