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|OT| Star Trek: Picard |OT| The Next, Next, Next Generation

McCheese

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Glad Episode 2 slowed it down a bit and elaborated on all the crazy shit that went on in Episode 1. Feels like the plot is on a much firmer footing now. It was also just a really good episode overall, great acting, good characters and not too much fan service.

That opening scene was brutal! I was not expecting that. But this puts an end to my "destroying all androids doesn't sound like something the federation would do!" doubts, turns out most of the androids in their future timeline are less Lt.Cmdr Data and more evil blue man group.

Chuckled sensibility at how they said this show was going to be anti-trump / anti-racism, and yet it turns out that every Romulan is still secretly evil, honestly, they lost their homeworld and they are still plotting? even the ones who have high star-fleet positions? THATS RACIST! >_< NOT :messenger_clapping: ALL :messenger_clapping: ROMULANS.

Wish they dumped every episode at once, really want to know where they are going with the Borg cube thing.
 
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Son Tofu

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It feels overly convoluted. Start simple and build.
I don't think they can really go slow with sci fi anymore. It seems people have the attention span of a fart in the wind nowadays.

I saw the second episode. It was pretty interesting. I won't go so far to say it's good, but it's not an abortion like Discovery.
 
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It feels overly convoluted. Start simple and build.
Yeah, I wish they would slow it down too. I tried watching these first two shows with my Dad, and he's 72...not exactly running on full steam anymore, and he can't follow it. Too much going on. I do think it's bouncing back and forth too much between what's going on the cube, and what's going on with Picard.

I know they can do swears because it's their own paid service, but man...I feel like Star Trek is one of those series that shouldn't have fucks and shits in it being thrown around. It's fine for the comic relief where Data said "oh shit" in Star Trek Generations, but as part of the conversations, it just doesn't feel appropriate for Star Trek.
 

jdforge

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What’s happening on the Borg Cube is really interesting.

Another really good episode. The female Romulan with the Irish accent sticks out a bit for me - as I’m Irish it’s strange hearing that accent on Star Trek from an alien race.

I really wish I could just binge all of this. Having to wait a week for each episode is somewhat annoying.
 
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Fuz

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And 2. I'm loving it. But maybe it's just my childlike happiness in seeing Stewart as Picard again, but it's fantastic and I'm overlooking the flaws (yes, I agree the whole Zhat Vash and the Romulan conspiracy feel dumb so far).


btw, Narek and the android twin girl(s) are terrible actors. Especially Narek. He's so bad. Rest of the cast ranges from pretty good to excellent.

like the f-bomb they dropped. Never thought I'd see that in a star trek show.
What, someone said Fuz? I didn't notice.
 
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Shouta

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Second ep was a bit stronger than the first. The slower pace in the Picard scenes helped a lot especially since it gave us a bit more time to get familiar with some of the characters. The Borg stuff was great but the Romulan stuff was kinda, eh. I did like that they elaborated more on what happened with the supernova. Some resistance from key Federation members + the huge loss of ships forced them to give up the rescue effort.
 
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Atrus

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The Synths seem strange to me. If the Federation were capable of making a type of Android why would they be on Mars doing manual labour but not on Starfleet ships? Even a fraction of Data's abilities is still significant.

There was only 1 Data and they had no problems sending him off on their flagship despite not knowing much about him.
 
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Stiflers Mom

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The 2nd episode was quite okayish, but somehow I don't really feel it yet.

positive:
* Peyton List is in it.

negative:
* wouldn't call it "woke" (since they are not touting it), but it's kind of peculiar how women are the aggressive acting ones (plus being the ones in positions of power) in this episode, and men behave a bit like sheep.
 

xandaca

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Episode Two was a notable step down from the first episode, still preferable to Discovery but plagued by many of the same issues in a less ostentatious manner. I liked the calmer pace of the first episode compared to Disco. Here it begins to drag, with a surfeit of superfluous scenes, such as Picard and Laris investigating Dhaj's flat for the sole purpose of determining that Soji is not on Earth, which we already knew. The scenes with Soji and Narek on the Borg cube go on too long for what little they reveal, most of which could have been surmised by the ending of the last episode.

Picard getting shut down by the Admiral was terrific, setting the stakes very effectively and laying out how starkly Picard's decision set him apart from the rest of Starfleet. The Zhat Vash is unnecessary and deeply stupid: the Romulans don't need a Section 31 - less of that generally, please - as little was known of the Tal Shiar already. Zhat Vash's driving purpose is apparently a hatred of artificial life 'going back thousands upon thousands of years'. Even (questionably) expanding the definition of artificial life to include most forms of computing, it seems extraordinarily unlikely that the Romulans would have had such advanced technology so long ago - certainly advanced enough to justify being hated - when they're roughly at Federation level in the here and now (aka: late 24th century).

The little incoherences which nagged in the first episode continue here. Even taking into account how much remains to be revealed, the attack on Mars, Picard's Romulan rescue effort and his search for Soji continue to feel connected only in the clunkiest way: they're supposed to be the series' framework, but are unnecessarily complicated and patched together. The fact that the Romulans look so much like Vulcans without the forehead ridges is very annoying, and the way the Romulan actors play their parts in a naturalistic, 'human' way is even moreso. I like Laris a lot (convenient she just happens to be fully in on the hot goss about the ultra secret Zhat Vash, though) but she should be an Irish human lady. Her 'feck' was very amusing, but I could very much have done without the Admiral's full-on 'fuck'. To semi-paraphrase Oscar Wilde, Trek should be looking at the stars, not lying in the gutter. Profanity only diminishes this series and comes across as an immature attempt to appear tough and serious. That's what themes and ideas are for. Additionally, why was Laris' forensic scanner outlawed by the Federation? Presumably for being too idiotically convenient a plot device. I laughed at how the super cunning, computer-hating Zhat Vash conveniently didn't destroy the data on Dhaj's computer (or the computer itself), just made it a bit more obnoxious to find.

Anyway, despite my whining, I didn't hate the episode, but aside from the argument between Picard and the Admiral - and the potentially interesting suggestion that the once supreme diplomat Picard might be losing his faculties - mostly just sat through it, absorbing its minor revelations with no great engagement (hurr hurr) and consequently taking greater notice of the narrative discontinuities which might have been easier to ignore had it all been more interesting. As pleased as I am that Picard is not embracing Discovery's whiplash-inducing pacing and visual overload, the pace here slipped from 'considered' to 'lethargic'. The first episode was fine, but ultimately did little to assuage my long-term doubts about the coherence and integrity of the storytelling. Bits and pieces here work, but my doubts are now slightly reinforced.
 
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Revolutionary

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I'm not going to pretend like I'm the most knowledgeable when it comes to Trek (on a scale of 1-10, I'd say I'm a 5 in Trek knowledge), but since when did Picard refer to Data as his "dearest friend"? That line really threw me for a loop in the latest episode... Data was cool and all but he was a synthetic first and foremost, so this humanization and adoration of him is kinda rubbing me the wrong way.
 
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infinitys_7th

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Red Letter Media's review is pretty bad. Their insistence that Picard and Data weren't friends is bizarre, especially when they're ranting about how the writers clearly know nothing about Trek. Picard and Data frequently have conversations about philosophy or culture throughout the show. And Data, you know, died to save Picard as he directly references in Ep1.

Many of the clips they use to "prove" this are either out of context (did I see Lore in there?) or from the frequently-awful early phase of TNG, where Picard was actually pretty hard to like.

While the show is taking some influence from contemporary real-world politics, Trek has always done this to a degree and at least so far it doesn't feel too heavy-handed or directly allegorical. This is far away from "Make the Empire Glorious Again."
They still were not best friends or anything. Picard got to know his crew and opened up some towards them, but he was always a very private, almost schizoid man. You can look at the scene when Riker left (one of the few accurate character portrayals in Nemesis) with a handshake and Picard briefly introspected and went on.

Picard was always a man of deep convictions, but not to the point of obsessive pining like PIC presents. Picard respected Data as much as Riker or any other crewmember, and considered Data a person (e.g. Measure of a Man). But just like any other person Picard was not overly attached to him, as shown in the episode RLM showed a clip of where Data was rationally assumed to have died in a shuttle explosion. Only when Geordi definitively proved that he had been kidnapped by Saul Rubinek was Picard swayed to pause their current mission and rescue him.

RLM definitely did not make a great argument though - like you said, they used clips of Lore as Data and made it seem like Picard considered Data an object, which is not the case. However, they are right about Picard being out of character.
 
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infinitys_7th

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Episode Two was a notable step down from the first episode, still preferable to Discovery but plagued by many of the same issues in a less ostentatious manner. I liked the calmer pace of the first episode compared to Disco. Here it begins to drag, with a surfeit of superfluous scenes, such as Picard and Laris investigating Dhaj's flat for the sole purpose of determining that Soji is not on Earth, which we already knew. The scenes with Soji and Narek on the Borg cube go on too long for what little they reveal, most of which could have been surmised by the ending of the last episode.

Picard getting shut down by the Admiral was terrific, setting the stakes very effectively and laying out how starkly Picard's decision set him apart from the rest of Starfleet. The Zhat Vash is unnecessary and deeply stupid: the Romulans don't need a Section 31 - less of that generally, please - as little was known of the Tal Shiar already. Zhat Vash's driving purpose is apparently a hatred of artificial life 'going back thousands upon thousands of years'. Even (questionably) expanding the definition of artificial life to include most forms of computing, it seems extraordinarily unlikely that the Romulans would have had such advanced technology so long ago - certainly advanced enough to justify being hated - when they're roughly at Federation level in the here and now (aka: late 24th century).

The little incoherences which nagged in the first episode continue here. Even taking into account how much remains to be revealed, the attack on Mars, Picard's Romulan rescue effort and his search for Soji continue to feel connected only in the clunkiest way: they're supposed to be the series' framework, but is unnecessarily complicated and patched together. The fact that the Romulans look so much like Vulcans without the forehead ridges is very annoying, and the way the Romulan actors play their parts in a naturalistic, 'human' way is even moreso. I like Laris a lot (convenient she just happens to be fully in on the hot goss about the super, ultra secret Zhat Vash, though) but she should be an Irish human lady. Her 'feck' was very amusing, but I could very much have done without the Admiral's full-on 'fuck'. To semi-paraphrase Oscar Wilde, Trek should be looking at the stars, not lying in the gutter. Profanity only diminishes this series and comes across as an immature attempt to appear tough and serious. That's what themes and ideas are for. Additionally, why was Laris' forensic scanner outlawed by the Federation? Presumably for being too idiotically convenient a plot device. I laughed at how the super cunning, computer-hating Zhat Vash conveniently didn't destroy the data on Dhaj's computer (or the computer itself), just made it a bit more obnoxious to find.

Anyway, despite my whining, I didn't hate the episode, but aside from the argument between Picard and the Admiral - and the potentially interesting suggestion that the once supreme diplomat Picard might be losing his faculties - mostly just sat through it, absorbing its minor revelations with no great engagement (hurr hurr) and consequently taking greater notice of the narrative discontinuities which might have been easier to ignore had it all been more interesting. As pleased as I am that Picard is not embracing Discovery's whiplash-inducing pacing and visual overload, the pace here slipped from 'considered' to 'lethargic'. The first episode was fine, but ultimately did little to assuage my long-term doubts about the coherence and integrity of the storytelling. Bits and pieces here work, but my doubts are now slightly reinforced.
I haven't watched the second episode yet, but I've never cared about spoilers.

So there is a sect of Romulan governmen that had been conducting a Butlerian Jihad for thousands of years? How did Romulans develop spacecraft? Dune had to invent space psychics to explain how computer-less ships can work.
 
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Fuz

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I'm not going to pretend like I'm the most knowledgeable when it comes to Trek (on a scale of 1-10, I'd say I'm a 5 in Trek knowledge), but since when did Picard refer to Data as his "dearest friend"? That line really threw me for a loop in the latest episode... Data was cool and all but he was a synthetic first and foremost, so this humanization and adoration of him is kinda rubbing me the wrong way.
You're wrong.
 

eot

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I thought the second episode was worse, and messily put together. The scene where they cut back and forth between the investigation and the Romulan lady giving exposition wasn't edited well enough, and the exposition itself was uninteresting. Some of the acting was underwhelming, the lady admiral in particular stood out to me. I also thought the pacing of the episode was strange, with lots of abrupt scene transitions. I was a bit let down.

Oh and the android shooting himself in the head made no sense to me, I was expecting it to stand there and stoically die. That whole sequence didn't feel very natural, them talking about how the androids creep them out was too on the nose.
 
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Stouffers

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I don't think they can really go slow with sci fi anymore. It seems people have the attention span of a fart in the wind nowadays.

I saw the second episode. It was pretty interesting. I won't go so far to say it's good, but it's not an abortion like Discovery.
Orville seems to do it pretty well.
 
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Revolutionary

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??? Did you respond to the wrong post or just fail at reading my post correctly?
My question was "since when did Picard refer to Data as his dearest friend?", which is a line that he said in the latest episode. "You're wrong" is both incorrect (he said that line) and doesn't answer my question. So uh.. thanks? 😂
 
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Trogdor1123

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Episode 2 wasn't very good imo. It has potential though. I just find that things are happening because they have to happen rather than cause it makes sense to happen.
 
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vpance

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I liked ep 2 for what it was but wasn't entirely impressed with the writing. Feels a little teen TV drama quality. Seems like they're trying to ape the JJ Abrams trek movies, down to the lens flares.
 
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Kenpachii

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Chick flick the series.

The girl power in this series is off the charts. with the 2 males being soyboys that function as pets of the mighty females.

Every single chick in this series is a power house or has a high up power position and slander this picard guy around through the dirt. And the few guys that do show up are nothing but dirt.

Lets start:

1) his wife is a powerhouse with being a uber detective that knows everything or whatever she is ( she actually plays it great however no issue with that ). ( also shits on picard and that pet male dog next towards him )
2) Twin 2 chicks basically that are super special and power houses, oke i can deal with that why not interesting take.
3) Star fleet chick, that shits on picard. okeeeee
4) she reports to another higher up chick. okeeeeee
5) that higher up chick, reports to another a bit less higher up chick okeeee which is also really important by the way...
6) She lectures the only other male soyboy central like its her pet around, that is just used as sex doll for the chinese power house chick.
7) twin chick has now a new girlfriend she tries to help which is a black chick obviously omegalul.
8) the scientists or professor which is also really important by the way is also a chick obviously.
9) picard got schooled and shit on by a female starfleet, that reports again towards a female starfleeter, that gives a assassin female star fleet another job and then he ends up getting help because he's out of options by another chick that now has guns and lives like a redneck alone but first obviously gets shit on by her.
10) but not before that pet spiky ears gets thrown into the trash by his spiky ear wife that basically dumpsters him by saying u can take him with you and die both.

The whole serie is basically 1 big chick flick. With picard validating it.

Honestly after the second episode i have no interesting in watching it anymore. It's even worse then fucking discovery.
 
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Yoshi

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I don't know what people expected? Alex Kurtzman and friends suddenly develop some talent?
Arguably they have. Episode 2 was much weaker than episode 1 and shows some of the failings of Discovery, but to a much lesser degree. As it stands, I am still optimistic that this will be the best story told in the Star Trek universe since the Berman run ended.
 

Darkmakaimura

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It's free for a limited time on Youtube for the first episode.


I definitely liked it better than Discovery. I want to know more.

Earlier in thread I posted a YTers response on the show and how she turned it off 15 minutes in. I don't see why. It isn't that bad. One can assume it's preaching immigration politics during Picard's interview with Starfleet being equivalent to our current administration but I felt this had a lot to do with AI, a real concern for our future.

Man though I'd love to see Q again but I doubt they'll do that and how would they explain a god-like entity getting older? Remember De Lancie in Breaking Bad? Shit, he looks like old Riker.
 

Urprobablyright

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You know, i love Patrick Stewart and i love Jean Luc Picard, i loved TNG and i even completed Voyager and Deep Space Nine. But I'm not feeling the slightest bit of excitement about this. My reasons as i can figure them at the moment:

- A i think he's probably too old now. Much like Robert Redford in his last few years of acting (Old Man and the Gun or whatever, A Walk in the Woods) i think there comes a time when human frailty, loss of coordination and movement speed, onset of unsteadiness... It will just look extremely weird to see him sprinting through the inevitable CGI expamalosions or whatever.

- B The premise, I'm not so sure this tired trope of a new, female hero with a barely believable connection to the past of the geriatric lead-who-is-too-unconvincing-to-be-a-lead is going to hold my attention for long. I'm absolutely not conservative, I've no problem with women claiming lead roles in films, I'm just dreading how contrived it will all feel, from her appearance to their artificially developing relationship to their *shudder* Hollywood backchat...

Yeah I'm just not feeling this. I wish i could, he should have made this follow up series 10, 15 years ago. With Jos Whedon maybe.
 

Darkmakaimura

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You know, i love Patrick Stewart and i love Jean Luc Picard, i loved TNG and i even completed Voyager and Deep Space Nine. But I'm not feeling the slightest bit of excitement about this. My reasons as i can figure them at the moment:

- A i think he's probably too old now. Much like Robert Redford in his last few years of acting (Old Man and the Gun or whatever, A Walk in the Woods) i think there comes a time when human frailty, loss of coordination and movement speed, onset of unsteadiness... It will just look extremely weird to see him sprinting through the inevitable CGI expamalosions or whatever.

- B The premise, I'm not so sure this tired trope of a new, female hero with a barely believable connection to the past of the geriatric lead-who-is-too-unconvincing-to-be-a-lead is going to hold my attention for long. I'm absolutely not conservative, I've no problem with women claiming lead roles in films, I'm just dreading how contrived it will all feel, from her appearance to their artificially developing relationship to their *shudder* Hollywood backchat...

Yeah I'm just not feeling this. I wish i could, he should have made this follow up series 10, 15 years ago. With Jos Whedon maybe.
lmao.
 
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Stiflers Mom

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- A i think he's probably too old now. Much like Robert Redford in his last few years of acting (Old Man and the Gun or whatever, A Walk in the Woods) i think there comes a time when human frailty, loss of coordination and movement speed, onset of unsteadiness... It will just look extremely weird to see him sprinting through the inevitable CGI expamalosions or whatever.
I am really dreading this moment from the trailer.



Geriatric Picard sword fighting against some young dude, barely moving.
Whoever thought that this is a good idea should get fired.
 

ManaByte

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Episode 3:

Liked that they did the flashback to when Picard resigned.

This is the first Star Trek episode to ever use the Vasquez Rocks AS the Vasquez Rocks.

Vaping still exists in the 24th century.

Hugh!

Rios reminds me of a Chakotay who isn't boring.
 

xandaca

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Episode 3: On balance, maybe the best of the three so far, although that's a heavily qualified statement. By the end, it finally felt as though Picard was doing something rather than doddering about killing time. I'm still not sure exactly what he wants to accomplish: is he searching for Soji, and if so, what's his plan when he finds her? Is he searching for Maddox, and if so, what's he hoping to gain from it? Still, he's got his makeshift crew together - leaving behind Laris, who remains the most entertaining character despite her inexplicable Irishness - and while there isn't a character trait between them, they aren't disagreeable. There was a hint at why the Zhat Vash hate artificial life, and while it's a very stupid hint about an ancient prophecy coming true*, it at least improves on the prior situation of a millennia-old Romulan secret police with a genocidal hatred of a technology which didn't exist.

*Remember 'Devil's Due', when Picard exposed a con-woman taking advantage of an ancient prophecy to enslave a planet? DS9 was more spiritualist with Sisko as the emissary, but rooted its prophecies in a semblance of science and physics by having the wormhole aliens interacting with spacetime on a higher dimensional level. Here, the hints at prophecy are precisely as grounded as 'ancient Romulan tarot really can tell the future'. And as far as prophecies go, the 'destroyer' schtick is as eye-rollingly clichéd as it gets.

Once again, though, the show keeps getting in its own way. Firstly, Raffi has the potential to be an interesting ally, but is immediately cut down by her sympathy for the Romulans and Picard's rescue mission extending only so far as it didn't negatively impact her. It's not a good look when that sympathy turns into lifelong bitterness the second it costs her 'security clearance'. Since even this show's writers subconsciously know that nobody's going to be weeping for someone's loss of their security clearance (OH NO! SHE CAN NO LONGER USE THE SUPER SWANKY EXECUTIVE TOILETS!), they are forced to stick a knife into one of the foundational principles of the Trek universe, that poverty and destitution have been entirely eliminated on Earth, to artificially make her situation look more grim. Of the myriad ways this show and Discovery have misunderstood Trek, Raffi's implied life of poverty and drug addiction on Earth might quietly be the most damning and damaging.

Secondly, the fight at the Picard vineyard was superficially diverting, at least in seeing Picard's Romulan handlers in action (although, again: why are such skilled operatives content to live as housekeepers to an ageing misanthrope?), but in service of absolutely nothing story-wise. It's just a fight for the sake of having a fight, and the Romulan they take prisoner at the end needlessly spouts the same prophetic nonsense as Ronda The Romulan in an adjacent scene before magically dissolving himself. Agnes turns up, but there hardly needed to be a fight for that to happen.

Thirdly, maybe I'm the only one who finds this annoying, but Soji's Undercover Romulan Sex Toy Fellow and Captain Rios** look almost identical but for the latter being in slightly better control of his hair. And then there's the EMH, a duplicate of Rios, making three disconcertingly similar looking characters in one series. It's a minor issue, but with outsized impact because there's nothing to distinguish these characters as people beyond their look and jobs. I can reel off the beliefs and principles, hobbies, relationships and little personality tics which make most of the original TNG cast who they are; this new lot get a job and an adjective at best: Raffi = 'bitter former first officer'; Agnes = 'skittish scientist'; Rios = 'down-on-his-luck pilot'.

**Here's another bit of Trek discontinuity: Rios is very explicitly linked to Starfleet, with no sign of him operating outside the Federation, yet Agnes (I think) makes a remark about how much he charges and he responds 'a lot'. While Trek has long fudged exactly how the Federation economy works, it has been stated on numerous occasions to be non-transactional, so why are these two characters talking about the purchasing of services as though it's an everyday thing? Between this and Raffi's Earthbound destitution...

Finally, while the show's slow pace makes it feel a little more Trekkish than the anti-Trek that is Discovery, the pace isn't slow because it's exploring character or ideas, it's just taking forever for anything to happen and lacks any depth to fill in the gaps.

Overall, like the first episode, my low expectations keep this watchable, as does the fact it thankfully avoids Discovery's vomitous hyperactivity. That there's a Romulan called Ronda is pretty funny, even if unintentionally. It's surviving by clinging onto the barest cadence of Trek while continuing to not understand anything that gives the series its soul. It's a plot-driven series with too much clunky backstory and too little actual plot, key parts of which are eye-rolling clichés. In other words, I'm not checked out yet - the prospect of Two Takes Frakes and his saucy grin returning to the screen is keeping me going - but it feels as though the show is spinning its wheel because the second it has to clean up the crap it has spread across the table, it's going to fall apart very quickly.
 
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Hinedorf

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Am I crazy or was the writing in episode 2 all over the place where you almost couldn't recognize what sequence/timeline they were in. Several times I found myself questioning what was going on and had to watch again to confirm. Didn't feel that way so much in Episode 1 but Episode 2 felt all over the map.
 

McCheese

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Enjoyed episode 3 but felt it didn't really movie the plot that far forward, but at least we are finally leaving earth.

Impressed by the acting yet again, literally every character in the show puts on a great performance, nobody feels 1-dimensional.

There is still a bit of an odd disconnect between Patrick Stewart and the rest of the cast, he just seems to stare into space a lot and avoids face to face eye contact. Not bad per say, but strange.
 
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ManaByte

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Enjoyed episode 3 but felt it didn't really movie the plot that far forward, but at least we are finally leaving earth.

Impressed by the acting yet again, literally every character in the show puts on a great performance, nobody feels 1-dimensional.

There is still a bit of an odd disconnect between Patrick Stewart and the rest of the cast, he just seems to stare into space a lot and avoids face to face eye contact. Not bad per say, but strange.
Picard was kind of like that from Season 6 on.
 

Son Tofu

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This show keeps getting worse after a decent start
It just feels like it's moving at a snail's pace. If this were Next Generation, half of these slow ass plots would've been changed into subplots that all happen during one episode.
 

Lukin1978

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It just feels like it's moving at a snail's pace. If this were Next Generation, half of these slow ass plots would've been changed into subplots that all happen during one episode.
The supporting characters aren't interested so far. Not like next generation where you had Riker, Data, Laforge, Crusher, Worf every one added something interesting and different.
 
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Jul 7, 2019
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This show keeps getting worse after a decent start
That feels like a side effect of just being a modern TV show too. Part of why I don't watch television 90% of the time anymore. Every damn series is a long connected narrative, so you are always being drip fed information, and so little actual happens each episode. Even series that I like that did that kind of thing, like 24, even though I liked them at first, they feel impossible for me to re-watch ever. They're all guilty of this. Cuz yeah, I totally just felt like this was yet another slow ass boring episode that tells us nothing, but only hints at what the fucking plot actual is still.