• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • The Politics forum has been nuked. Please do not bring political discussion to the rest of the site, or you will be removed. Thanks.

Opinion Analysis Review State of Next-Gen Graphics So Far...

perkelson

Member
Dec 13, 2020
198
296
230
There is no such thing as ambient lighting in the realworld. Since the games are using ambient lighting and not direct light sources, they have to compute a shadow somehow. That's where ambient occlusion comes in to give the object depth. There is no ambient occlusion being used on the individual characters. That is, there is no rays being shot out into the scene on the coat or shirt or shoes, for example, to test occlusion.

Sorry but you are just talking without understanding what is going on. Literally global ILLUMINATION in name has information for you about what it is doing. Ambient occlusion has nothing to do with how characters are lit but with darkening of space between two close objects like when you lean on wall that part of wall occluded and thus its ambient color darkens.

Characters being weirdly lit literally has nothing to do with ambient occlusion but with their global illumination not updating properly in that scene.
 

VFXVeteran

Professional Victim (Vetted)
Nov 5, 2019
5,460
12,408
805
Sorry but you are just talking without understanding what is going on. Literally global ILLUMINATION in name has information for you about what it is doing. Ambient occlusion has nothing to do with how characters are lit but with darkening of space between two close objects like when you lean on wall that part of wall occluded and thus its ambient color darkens.

Characters being weirdly lit literally has nothing to do with ambient occlusion but with their global illumination not updating properly in that scene.
I tried to be nice about this. I've programmed this stuff for over 20yrs. I know what I"m talking about.

When you trace a ray into the scene from an object, it should look for global illumination of bounced light from surfaces AS WELL AS what gets blocked travelling to those neighboring surfaces. Look at the grapes in that shot. They are self occluding each other to bring out the shape.



Look at this character with a helmet on his face. Notice how the lighting gets the sky color BUT ALSO gets blocked by cracks and crevices on his helmet to his face. Goggles around his nose. Goggles around it's own rim. You absolutely NEED occlusion WITH global illumination in order to get correct shadowing. Otherwise it will look flat like Cyberpunk looks.

 

kikkis

Member
Aug 13, 2020
166
267
265
I disagree on geometry output. I think its one of the bigger problems of current rendering, that UE5 hopes to rectify to some degree. Being limited to around triangle covering at least 8 pixels is quite limiting when you want display finer features and lod seamlessly.
 
  • Love
Reactions: Lethal01
Jan 11, 2019
1,681
5,448
545
Zeus’ butthole
Well it absolutely blows away Mortal Shell that he compares it 2.

I haven't played Mortal Shell yet, so I can't compare directly, but I have been watching a lot of footage from today's Enhanced Edition release and the game looks REALLY good on PS5 and XsX imo.

Again, I am just going off streams and highlight clips on YouTube, so not exactly ideal viewing scenario, but the textures and details seem very high quality. I would be curious to see some side by side comparisons of the NG version of Mortal Shell and Demon's Souls PS5
 
Jan 29, 2019
5,969
6,490
495
Interesting it's an inherent issue for both consoles. I'm a little surprised Sony/Xbox didn't push back for that sort of hardware to be included given the length of the last generation.
1 - Raytracing support is there, and very viable (if you keep your expectations in check)
2 - Sony and MS probably wanted proper AI acceleration, but these features have a cost, they take room on the die, generate heat, etc. and AMD does not seem to be ready for an answer to Ampere yet, anyway as far as I know so far in games Ampere was only used for better upscaling (depending on the situation, in some cases it seems to be worse than a good upscaler, even with version 2.0).. Also adding support for this feature is quite involved, so the games that support DLSS are few and far between
 

makaveli60

Member
Jan 7, 2018
1,783
2,878
505
while adding new rendering tech is nice developers should also look to get rid of certain flaws which are immersion breaking for example object/scenery/shadow pop in, if UE5 engine games eliminate or hide that well then it will be the GOD LIKE game engine this gen
THIS x 100! I feel like we’ve reached a point where generally games look awesome, but these immersion breaking things are very very detrimental. Solve these first then we can continue, IMO.
 
  • Praise the Sun
Reactions: mansoor1980

Elder Legend

Member
Jun 10, 2019
1,757
3,980
615
All,

I've spent the better part of 6 months playing some of the best games on the PC that has come out since the next-generation of consoles started. Here are some impressions that I've gathered about some of the games I've picked that covers pretty much every single tech that's out there including on the PS5/XSX exclusives.

1) Lighting

While we've come a long way with going towards RT for the foreseeable future, I'm still having a lot of complaints about lighting in general. We still see the old light probe GI solutions in most of the games that have come out since this generation has started. It's really really annoying to see that game companies are still satisfied with light probes for representing bounced light when objects are in shadow. I love the fact that games like Control, Metro, Crysis Remake and Cyberpunk has decided to enhance the experience by using RT for GI. However, Cyberpunk is suffering greatly with ambient occlusion. I'm still seeing the same old code from Witcher 3 in Cyberpunk and it's annoying:


The characters look horrible in the shade. Their clothes and skin literally look like constant ambient light has been put on them. CDPR wasted their resources on getting the RT ambient occlusion in for larger objects but completely abandoned casting rays on the characters clothes. Even their walking on the ground shows very light occlusion ultimately making the character look like they are floating on the surface.

2) Area Lights

Contrast that with what CDPR *did* get right and that's area lights. This is probably one of the most important forms of accurate rendering lights. The realworld has lights that are oddly shaped and not just spheres or arrows. Implementing area lights in a game is considered paramount to getting good local light sources.


3) NPCs, Fallbacks of SSAO

We are just now getting to the point where we can do full on subsurface scattering in gameplay and not worry about the massive hit in framerates. The hair shading still has a ways to go but adding a couple of specular terms in the hair, adding in the best PBR shading, higher res textures and you are closer to in-game cinematics - still aways off though. The other fallback is in SSAO. While it's great for still objects, it still rears it's ugly head. In this video, you can see it misses some items on the table and it disappears when an object is front of the view camera.


4) Baked lighting is still a good solution for now

Baked lightmaps and ambient occlusion is still a good solution for now when you set the scene up properly. You won't see the dynamic lighting but it will not suffer from the above mentions in games that want to utilize dynamic TOD, dynamic lights or dynamic objects in the scene. Demon Souls looks so good because they implemented this old tried and true system. There is an Indie game called Mortal Shell that is very similar to DS in both art direction and technology. Here is some gameplay that doesn't show any of the weaknesses in lighting that I was mentioning but it does use static objects, shadows, etc..


5) Better PBR without using RT

Microsoft's Flight Simulator has got me very excited for what's to come. They have hit all the nails on the heads in terms of graphics tech and it shows. This PBR shader usage is pretty much the best I've seen and I'd imagine that games like GT7 will look like this on their cars. If we could only get this quality for in-game characters.


6) Environment Lighting + FX

Again FS2020 is top dog here. I've studied several aspects of their lighting engine and I can't find any weaknesses at all. They are literally sampling the entire sky when they shade objects on the ground. I would love to read the paper on how they did this without ray-tracing. It reminds me of Lumen in the UE5 demo. They aren't using any tricks to do this like 99% of all games out there where the clouds aren't a part of the lighting equation or MIE scattering isn't being utilized.


7) Cloud FX Rendering

This has got to be a first for finally moving away from facing ratio sprite cards. FS2020's cloud rendering uses true 3D volume textures with literally no aliasing, light attenuation, and procedural noise shaders with implicit surfaces all deforming in realtime. The only fallback I see in this technique is there isn't enough layers of 3D texture. You can tell this when flying through them. This is obviously to limit bandwidth constraints. I would love to revisit 4-5yrs from now and see if we can adjust the resolution of these 3D volumes to maybe 64-128 z-levels to see how the GPU handles it.


8) Photogrammetry

We need more of this technique. It was done first in Star Wars battlefront I believe and those textures looked stellar. I know it's a lot of prep work to implement properly and would raise costs of the budget much higher, but you really can't beat true photography.


I'm excited for what's ahead but at the same time I'm very cautious. I don't expect all games to start having these things correct out the gate this generation. MFS2020 is clearly designed with future hardware in mind and RT is a bandwidth hog. We might see only a handful of games doing a lot of these features at once. But anything is better than nothing.
NONE of these are actual true next gen titles dude. I do not care how any company paints it. If a game is being released on previous gen platform it is NOT next gen.

You should be putting games on this list such as Ratchet and Clank, Returnal and Demon's Souls. Which in their own right all look good in their own way.

If you are wanting to be absolutely blown away by the visuals then you gonna wait for the super big heavy hitters such as the next God of War (assuming its next gen only) will not count Forbidden West sorry, it's a cross gen game and I don't care how Sony paints it.

And of course Fable, Awoved, Hellblade II, Perfect Dark, Everwild and whatever else both Microsoft and Sony has planned. Please be patient, its always this slow with new gen cycles l, and its worse this time due do COVID.

I am still blown away how good God of War and TLOU 2 look on the piece of shit hardware that is PS4. Both Xbox One and PS4 are very underpowered systems,
even when they came out in 2013.

The new gen/systems are a far better leap than ps3 to ps4 imo. PS4 to PS5 and Xbox One to Series X with the SSD and more than double with GPU and quadruple in CPU is quite insane. Just gotta wait another year or 2 and you'll start seeing some jaw dropping stuff.
 
Last edited:

GustavoLT

Member
Apr 24, 2019
414
822
330
Naughty Dog did:
4 games for PS3
2.5 games for PS4 (Uncharted Lost Legacy is a 0.5 game)
I don´t believe they can put out 2 games this gen!
 
  • Like
Reactions: VFXVeteran

GymWolf

Member
Jun 11, 2019
16,422
24,228
635
NONE of these are actual true next gen titles dude. I do not care how any company paints it. If a game is being released on previous gen platform it is NOT next gen.

You should be putting games on this list such as Ratchet and Clank, Returnal and Demon's Souls. Which in their own right all look good in their own way.

If you are wanting to be absolutely blown away by the visuals then you gonna wait for the super big heavy hitters such as the next God of War (assuming its next gen only) will not count Forbidden West sorry, it's a cross gen game and I don't care how Sony paints it.

And of course Fable, Awoved, Hellblade II, Perfect Dark, Everwild and whatever else both Microsoft and Sony has planned. Please be patient, its always this slow with new gen cycles l, and its worse this time due do COVID.

I am still blown away how good God of War and TLOU 2 look on the piece of shit hardware that is PS4. Both Xbox One and PS4 are very underpowered systems,
even when they came out in 2013.

The new gen/systems are a far better leap than ps3 to ps4 imo. PS4 to PS5 and Xbox One to Series X with the SSD and more than double with GPU and quadruple in CPU is quite insane. Just gotta wait another year or 2 and you'll start seeing some jaw dropping stuff.
 

VFXVeteran

Professional Victim (Vetted)
Nov 5, 2019
5,460
12,408
805
NONE of these are actual true next gen titles dude. I do not care how any company paints it. If a game is being released on previous gen platform it is NOT next gen.

You should be putting games on this list such as Ratchet and Clank, Returnal and Demon's Souls. Which in their own right all look good in their own way.

If you are wanting to be absolutely blown away by the visuals then you gonna wait for the super big heavy hitters such as the next God of War (assuming its next gen only) will not count Forbidden West sorry, it's a cross gen game and I don't care how Sony paints it.

And of course Fable, Awoved, Hellblade II, Perfect Dark, Everwild and whatever else both Microsoft and Sony has planned. Please be patient, its always this slow with new gen cycles l, and its worse this time due do COVID.

I am still blown away how good God of War and TLOU 2 look on the piece of shit hardware that is PS4. Both Xbox One and PS4 are very underpowered systems,
even when they came out in 2013.

The new gen/systems are a far better leap than ps3 to ps4 imo. PS4 to PS5 and Xbox One to Series X with the SSD and more than double with GPU and quadruple in CPU is quite insane. Just gotta wait another year or 2 and you'll start seeing some jaw dropping stuff.

The term next-gen for you is on a console. The PC follows it's own generation cycles. I was speaking from the PC perspective which is always ahead on the introduction of graphics features.
 

Elder Legend

Member
Jun 10, 2019
1,757
3,980
615
The term next-gen for you is on a console. The PC follows it's own generation cycles. I was speaking from the PC perspective which is always ahead on the introduction of graphics features.
That doesn't matter, because the titles you have listed are also available on previous gen platforms that are very bottom of the barrel. PC's are scaleable. I can go buy PC parts that consist of the old ancient 2000's GPUs and CPUs and try to run Cyberpunk on it. What you think will happen?

Yes, PC's are on top of the game, sure that's 100% true, but the new gen consoles are the LOWEST level of the foundation that the current gen PC hardware will be going off, PS5 and Xbox Series X are the new PC low and game development is built off the lowest common denominator and right now sadly, the PS4 and Xbox One are still the lowest common denominator. Fast forward to the 2023 or so the PS5 and Xbox Series X will be the foundational standard.
 

svbarnard

Member
Mar 17, 2016
161
144
410
FS2020 in VR is the most realistic thing I have ever experienced, the combination of details, materials and the lightning really make you feel like you are there, in a plane, and like you said, all that without a slightest usage of RT
There is no Ray tracing in fs2020? Then how do they achieve such great lighting?
 

Real-HipHopGamer

Neo Member
Apr 30, 2021
21
34
145
Even though i can't post a thread as of yet on the site, i can confirm that the IN - ENGINE trailer from The Game Awards Hellblade 2 trailer graphical fidelity is coming and will be playable in real - time, in terms of those level of graphic details.

Honestly after seeing ratchet and clank rift apart latest trailer i mean it's really really gonna happen this generation.

i have the proof on my youtube channel with FACEWARE interview with Pete Busch.

Check it out and when i can i will share it on a thread when i'm able to much love ya'll
 

svbarnard

Member
Mar 17, 2016
161
144
410
A lot of people very sceptical of nvidia for dedicating hardware to tensor cores and incorporating Ray tracing when the 20xx series rolled out and it didn't help the first implementation of DLSS sucked.
It was only kind of recently DLSS 2.0 started showing what it could really achieve.
AMD got kind of blind sided in that regard.
So how's this going to affect the next generation of consoles then? Is DLSS 2.0 really such a big deal? But the Xbox series x has variable rate shading, how does that compare?
 

svbarnard

Member
Mar 17, 2016
161
144
410
Even though i can't post a thread as of yet on the site, i can confirm that the IN - ENGINE trailer from The Game Awards Hellblade 2 trailer graphical fidelity is coming and will be playable in real - time, in terms of those level of graphic details.

Honestly after seeing ratchet and clank rift apart latest trailer i mean it's really really gonna happen this generation.

i have the proof on my youtube channel with FACEWARE interview with Pete Busch.

Check it out and when i can i will share it on a thread when i'm able to much love ya'll
How do I find your YouTube channel?
 

Krizalidx11

Banned
Mar 18, 2021
474
708
345
The lighting in CP2077 with RT is already ahead of anything else on any platform and it will be for a long time

Look at this son

 

JimboJones

Member
Apr 16, 2009
4,146
2,532
1,320
N.Ireland
So how's this going to affect the next generation of consoles then? Is DLSS 2.0 really such a big deal? But the Xbox series x has variable rate shading, how does that compare?
I imagine it won't affect them much but its a big value add for Nvidia users and allows them to reduce resolution but keep image quality at a higher level vs TAA up scaling and thus get more performance.

Next gen consoles will just have to make do with TAA up scaling which is OK but not nearly as good (needs higher resolutions to look good so not as big as performance uplift) but we haven't seen AMDs super resolution thing yet.

VRS seems to add very little performance uplift from any game I've read about but I guess it's nice to have and when used in conjunction with other performance saving measures it might all add up to be beneficial vs not having it.
 
Last edited:

svbarnard

Member
Mar 17, 2016
161
144
410
I imagine it won't affect them much but its a big value add for Nvidia users and allows them to reduce resolution but keep image quality at a higher level vs TAA up scaling and thus get more performance.

Next gen consoles will just have to make do with TAA up scaling which is OK but not nearly as good (needs higher resolutions to look good so not as big as performance uplift) but we haven't seen AMDs super resolution thing yet.

VRS seems to add very little performance uplift from any game I've read about but I guess it's nice to have and when used in conjunction with other performance saving measures it might all add up to be beneficial vs not having it.
Well I think we're going to need to see game engines redesigned from the ground up to really take advantage of next-gen consoles, of course with all these cross gen games it's not going to happen for a few years.