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[FF:Enhanced_Reality]

Just to clarify, this thread isn't a generic whine that I'm looking for attention but I wanted to talk about this because I wanted to share my thoughts.

I've been reading digital foundry since perhaps the late 2000's coming up to 2010, so nearly ten years maybe? Far before this generation of consoles. Definitely before they had their YouTube page as popular as it is now. I've always enjoyed watching and learning about the technical aspects of games but also it's great to know when a developer has done a particularly good job, or if you're going to be disappointed, a particularly bad one.

Now John and the team always say like, subscribe and hit us up on Twitter or Patreon! etc. So after all these years, I thought, why not? I'd been following the channel for time, why not support them on Patreon?

See, here is the thing I wanted to talk about. I joined the Patreon membership maybe 6 months ago? With a pledge of £10. Okay, it doesn't sound like much, but at £120 a year, it's more than PlayStation Plus and a lot of other things that I pay for. I pledged more than I pay for Netflix or Amazon video and you know, I'm cool with that. I wanted to support the channel, I made a decision and I was happy with it. For a time anyway.

The thing that kept niggling at me was how barren the Patreon page is. Other subscribers were even commenting on their page how desolate it was, like it was barely updated. But this can't be right can it? John and Richard always say to message them if you have any questions about their videos or any content. So I started by sending John a tweet. Which was ignored. Then I sent the same tweet to the main Digital Foundry page. This was also ignored. So I messaged the Patreon page. I thought, know what, I'm paying for it, surely it's the best way to get a response... right? Well, I didn't.

My question wasn't even complicated. I love Digital Foundry Retro, they cover a lot of games that I loved like Tomb Raider, Soul Reaver, Power Slave (although I know it as Exhumed) and so many more. But the debate came up about why PlayStation 4 was so lacking in backwards compatibility and why PlayStation 5 would look to change it. Though the way they talked about PlayStation 4 b/c was so vague, all I wanted to know since these guys are experts, more-so John who always breaks down emulation is their thoughts on PS4 b/c and what can and can't be done. I'm not asking to re-invent the wheel. Just a simple reply would be great, or even a link to some information about the topic.

So I messaged once more and a third time and after that, I just stopped supporting them and went onto supporting the 8-bit guy, who ironically, messaged me right away to thank me for my support.

I'm happy to support the content, I do still enjoy the videos, love the content, especially the retro content but what I hate is when we advertise ourselves as open people who you can contact and engage with and you really aren't. Patreon got me nowhere and I paid for that privilege. You know? I don't really see the point in supporting these guys if they aren't like to reply. I did the exact same thing with Game Sack. They weren't very engaging and I thought a big part of Patreon was the ability to be closer to the content creators. The 8-bit guy, Kim Justice and Lotus Prince respond like within a day or two maximum. Caddicarus takes a few days. I'm not mad, disappointed maybe, I just don't see the point.

It doesn't really help when Patreon doesn't seem to curate the content creators. Facebook for example has the notification that says 'this creator typically responds in a day' etc. They don't offer ratings as to how well content creators will update and support their page. Yet some of these entities are looking at like $3000 a month+ in support alone. It kind of makes me laugh how Lotus Prince makes $278 a month and updates his page every day, replies to messages within a day can do a better job of it than Digital Foundry who by comparison, dwarf LP in terms of subscribers and financial backing.

For those of us who support gaming content creators and all the channels that ask you to consider supporting them, I have to wonder if perhaps Patreon really needs improving here or whether some people are just dicks? I can't decide.

 

[iconmaster]

Well, I think approaches to Patreon vary widely.

I support three creators on Patreon, two of which are the Easy Allies and Arlo.

The Easy Allies update their Patreon page constantly. They provide exclusive videos or early access to videos via Patreon. They use Patreon to gather comments which they address in their videos. They really make full use of the platform.

Arlo... basically does nothing. Once in a while he puts out an update about what he's working on, but that's it.

I enjoy Easy Allies' handling of its Patreon, but I'll keep supporting Arlo just because I like what he does (elsewhere) and want him to keep on doing it.

 

[Hendrick's]

I didn't read your whole post because I got bored, but from what I gather, you wanted or expected personal attention for your Patreon money. I think for what you were paying, and considering their relatively small Patreon following, it is fair to expect some sort of reply after a few tries.

That said, I back things for the content and do not want or expect any special attention. Certainly though, I couldn't fault your decision.

 

[ipukespiders]

Think of your $ as allowing them to continue doing the work you enjoyed in the first place, and not as a "personal" service. The more time they spend talking with you, the less time they have for doing what they do best: analyzing games and hardware.

 

[Mattyp]

Because they don’t need patron, they make enough bank through youtube etc you’re just another source of income. Sounds more like a problem with DF.

Never understood donating to anyone personally for video games or streaming etc but each their own.

 

[Reallink]

To be fair, that's not really a question they can provide a meaningful answer to at this time. Obviously Sony could support BC for every Playstation system if they wanted to, even if it's not 100% compatibility (a la Xbox's approach). They already have software emulation that would cover 98%+ of PS1 and PS2, but PS3 would be a wild card. Certainly PS4 BC is all but guaranteed and would be very easy to implement given the rumored hardware in 5, but there's not really anything they could add to that beyond basic common sense deductions.

Because they don’t need patron, they make enough bank through youtube etc you’re just another source of income

Never understood donating to anyone personally for video games or streaming etc but each their own.

They are officially employed by/funded by Eurogamer are they not (and by extension whatever corporate entity/media conglomerate owns Eurogamer)?

 

[Bonfires Down]

I don't see how they are dicks. Sure, they shouldn't act like they will answer on patreon or twitter unless they actually do. But the primary benefit of donating is supposed to be 4k video, and of course to support their work. They seem to have their hands full, so I can't blame them if they don't feel like answering questions in the evenings.

 

[Max_Po]

I didn't read your whole post because I got bored, but from what I gather, you wanted or expected personal attention for your Patreon money. I think for what you were paying, and considering their relatively small Patreon following, it is fair to expect some sort of reply after a few tries.

That said, I back things for the content and do not want or expect any special attention. Certainly though, I couldn't fault your decision.

Reminds me of a gaffer a few years ago.

Once, The Witcher 2 was on sale for 2 dollar or 4 dollars and change ... and a gaffer proudly stated "Well I did my part and supported the developer"...... R O F L

 

[renzolama]

Once they entered into their marketing agreement with Nintendo for hyperbolic switch port reviews they stopped needing as much external financial support

 

[Fake]

D dark10x answer this guy please.

 

[captainraincoat]

I personally hate patreon

It funds too many useless mouthpieces that use it to simply fund a lifestyle instead of actually working and bringing something original

 

[Karak]

Ya answering is important for sure.
Vital even.
I dont know how many patrons they have but I have a lot and get maybe 40-80 emails a day just from subs on patreon asking random questions. Also their backend(patreons) is utter trash. And its not at all hard to get a message lost. Not making excuses at all. But it can get insane in the backend. I mean it when I say it patreons email system is worse than anything I have seen in my life and I have worked at companies where 1 person made their own and we had to use it. No search functions, only 2 types of sorting and if many people respond to the same post its impossible to tell who a return message is going to.

Crazy stuff. All that being said. I get it. Just adding some more data to the convo.

I patron about 7-9 other creators on patreon as well and have seen both sides for sure.

 

[AeonGaidenRaiden]

Was never a fan of Patreon. Not because I dont want to help someone but because it spread like a disease to every channel. A YTer with 1000 subs, the first thing they would mention is to support them on Patreon. That is always first thing mentioned before a lot of videos start and just turns me off. Then you got some awesome YT guys with great content that are barely supported but you got a drama tool like YongYea that has like $2500 monthly support to read other peoples articles and make it an even bigger issue than it is.

 

[Karak]

Was never a fan of Patreon. Not because I dont want to help someone but because it spread like a disease to every channel. A YTer with 1000 subs, the first thing they would mention is to support them on Patreon. That is always first thing mentioned before a lot of videos start and just turns me off. Then you got some awesome YT guys with great content that are barely supported but you got a drama tool like YongYea that has like $2500 monthly support to read other peoples articles and make it an even bigger issue than it is.

This also happens. I help a lot of smaller youtubers who start and even now basically start with "dont do a patron if you can help it" not cause they shouldn't but because many times it flounders without something to show as examples of your work.

 

[MayauMiao]

You know what is worst than youtubers asking for Patreon support?

"CLICK SUBSCRIBE AND HIT THE BELL ICON"

 

[Slings and Arrows]

WHy would you give your money to another company without receiving a service in return?

 

[nush]

I personally hate patreon

It funds too many useless mouthpieces that use it to simply fund a lifestyle instead of actually working and bringing something original

I've seen Youtubers abuse Patreon by giving thier wives Patreon accounts as they sometimes upload a solo video on thier personal account. But here's the thing, they already live together, the equipments already been brought and paid for to make the videos AND it's obviously the husbands doing the editing/uploading anyway. So what's being "supported" other than a double dip on thier subscribers?

 

[McCheese]

Interacting with fans is a pretty important part of the whole patreon ecosystem, that they ignored your message across 3 different platforms is fair game for cancelling a sub imo.

Why pay for the cos if you get the milk for free? Doubt anybody really cares about lossless video downloads. They should let subscribers vote on things to cover or join some of their debates etc.

 

[Roufianos]

Lmao. Don't give those idiots a penny. I once saw one of them tell someone on RetardEra "not to refer to women as females".

 

[dark10x]

Apologies - for me it just comes down to lack of time for anything and having a really bad year. It's getting a tad better but the sheer volume of work is proving too much for me. Gotta make changes to survive cuz I've never been so stressed and unwell. That's really what it comes down to. I do try to answer messages when possible but the hours I'm working right now and being sick has made things tough to keep up.

Because they don’t need patron, they make enough bank through youtube etc you’re just another source of income. Sounds more like a problem with DF.

Never understood donating to anyone personally for video games or streaming etc but each their own.

Well, unfortunately, we do not. Things aren't great and I'm so stressed that I can barely keep up! So, that's why I've missed messages and mostly stopped posting on forums (until this moment). It's been one of the worst years on record for me. I'm trying my best but have failed, as usual.

That said, we're looking at ways to improve by focusing more on it and that will hopefully allow me to do more stuff FOR the Patreon (including an easy way to chat with us directly) instead of only focusing on YouTube. That is the big key, I think. Finding new ways to focus.

Sorry for letting everyone down again. I wish I could please everyone but I'm just not good enough.

Once they entered into their marketing agreement with Nintendo for hyperbolic switch port reviews they stopped needing as much external financial support

Why do you make these types of claims? That stuff really fucking hurts and isn't even remotely true.

I just want to make enjoyable videos. That's all. ...but the spark is fading fast along with my health. The internet has really wrecked me.

 

[Huevos de Oro]

I hope OP feels bad now.

 

[dark10x]

I hope OP feels bad now.

They shouldn't. I wasn't there to answer. That's my own fault.

He couldn't know how bad things are. The few things I'm proud of are immediately torn down by others.

...again, though, that's not for anyone to have to know or guess about. I don't blame them one bit. It makes perfect sense. I wish I could do better but I'm not even sure I should have started in the first place.

 

[Gavin Stevens]

Patreon is terrible, but it’s done because YouTube are 100x worse. It’s not perfect but what can you do... these people deserve money, and YouTube just don’t give a toss

 

[dark10x]

Man, I just looked through hundreds of messages on Twitter - I can't even find the message from the OP. When was it sent?

It doesn't matter now, obviously, but I'd like to know.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Eh, I dunno. Sounds a bit needy on OP's part; isn't the point of Patreon to support the content? I know a lot of them also offer rewards for pledges, and they schedule those out.

I guess getting a thank-you message would be neat, but that either means someone has to take time out of their schedule to do one for each pledge (gets very time-consuming), hire someone just to do that for them (might get costly), or send automated messages (could come off as artificial/insincere). If they have rewards, just hold out for the rewards.

General rule, don't give money just to get platitudes and praise. Do it if you like the content. Plus, I think channels like DF probably do the end-of-video Patreon crawls, most of the bigger channels do that because they have so many pledgees and it's more convenient for them.

Apologies - for me it just comes down to lack of time for anything and having a really bad year. It's getting a tad better but the sheer volume of work is proving too much for me. Gotta make changes to survive cuz I've never been so stressed and unwell. That's really what it comes down to. I do try to answer messages when possible but the hours I'm working right now and being sick has made things tough to keep up.


Well, unfortunately, we do not. Things aren't great and I'm so stressed that I can barely keep up! So, that's why I've missed messages and mostly stopped posting on forums (until this moment). It's been one of the worst years on record for me. I'm trying my best but have failed, as usual.

That said, we're looking at ways to improve by focusing more on it and that will hopefully allow me to do more stuff FOR the Patreon (including an easy way to chat with us directly) instead of only focusing on YouTube. That is the big key, I think. Finding new ways to focus.

Sorry for letting everyone down again. I wish I could please everyone but I'm just not good enough.


Why do you make these types of claims? That stuff really fucking hurts and isn't even remotely true.

I just want to make enjoyable videos. That's all. ...but the spark is fading fast along with my health. The internet has really wrecked me.

Damn dude, that sucks to hear, but hope you take care of yourself. Health (physical, mental, spiritual) comes first. I'm really big on those retro vids you've done, tho. Favorite DF content tbh, especially the SEGA 32X series. It's hard finding that level of high-quality retro stuff on Youtube especially for the more obscure systems.

And the internet can indeed suck at times. I barely mess with social media; shit's just a waste of time. Plus so many using it are super-needy for constant attention and validation. I got my own life to live here xD!!!

 

[Bullet Club]

Sorry for letting everyone down again. I wish I could please everyone but I'm just not good enough.

You're doing a good job. Your videos are great. It sounds like it's tough work and you can't please everyone all of the time.

 

[iconmaster]

the spark is fading fast along with my health. The internet has really wrecked me.

I love all of DF's videos. I just started watching the Sept. 29 DF Direct. Hope you can find some work-life balance and find a way to tune out the trolls. The internet was a mistake.

 

[Harlock]

Hope you guys never stop. I got the feeling that a lot of games would run worse without DF to keep things on check. Love the CRT videos.

 

[darkangel-212559]

dark10x, you do fantastic work. The DF Retro series is always a joy to watch, and the teams technical break down of games and consoles is entertaining, professional and a hugely important asset to the gaming community.

I get mental health struggles, it sucks. I hear you. Having been there myself I would really advise and see if you can take some time off to get well, to rest, to think about how best to support yourself within this highly demanding job.

Also, and just as importantly, you must never feel the need to apologise to anyone for your struggles and personal issues. It can be tempting to, but please remember that you don't owe anyone on the Internet anything. Your allowed to struggle. It's part of life and don't let anyone make you think you need to say sorry for that.

Anyway, hope you feel better soon. Keep smashing it out of the park!

 

[Saber]

Man, I just looked through hundreds of messages on Twitter - I can't even find the message from the OP. When was it sent?

It doesn't matter now, obviously, but I'd like to know.

Relax buddy, it's not your fault. You said yourself theres a lot of workload. Don't try force things, it will only makes harder for you and your health. You're human like anybody else, so don't torture yourself. You do a brilliant work, thats what matters. Your health should be top priority over everything.

Perhaps you could just talk to the OP here and try to answer what you can.

 

[dark10x]

I guess it's pretty obvious that things have been rough based on the posts I've made this year, huh? I really just want to please everyone, if possible, even though it's probably not entirely possible. So I wind up feeling really negative on a regular basis which...isn't fun. I used to have thick skin but since doing internet content, that's kind of changed which sucks.

 

[Anki]

Take it easy man, don't stress out. It looks like you have a lot of work and not enough time or people, you have taken a bigger bite than you can handle. Maybe you should slow down a bit? Maybe do one type of videos (DF retro for example).
I don't know your situation but I wish you good luck and I will continue watching your videos

 

[MayauMiao]

Don't make yourself miserable by trying to please everyone. If you have to take time to produce content, then let it be. I rather see quality content over quantity.

Also if you plan on doing more retro games, please do Jurassic Park Trespasser.

 

[Can't decide]

It can be hard to do, but don't focus on the few negatives and remember the many positives, not just here right now, but all the time, everywhere. For the number of criticisms you may get, there are far more individuals who love, praise and appreciate the quality and the content you create, plus the time and effort you spend making it, and how personable and passionate you come across.

Engrave it into your mind that you please way more people than you could ever possibly upset.

The internet can be a big pile of shit, the anonymity allows people to say many things they would never dare or dream of if they were in a face to face situation, so they present the worst of themselves. That's not worth focusing on when you could be remembering the hundreds of thousands of people that eagerly tune in to view your content every week.

DF is one of the first things I look at when I get home from work. If I had a criticism to offer to the channel as a whole, it would be that I'd like to see less focus on AAA games, but I understand that these pull in the biggest viewer counts and that the team would also need to expand to be able to cover even more games. The quality is fantastic though, I hope you guys stay at it and don't weigh yourselves down with the negatives, they are in the vast minority!

I mean if it relates, sometimes I'll be there here at home feeling miserable, thinking about some stupid shit, then as I look around me, realize that I am warm, comfortable, sitting in a nice house with a kick ass entertainment system, I've travelled across the world, etc, then you remember all the other great things in life - it always quickly puts my mind back into perspective and perks me right back up.

 

[Murdoch]

I guess it's pretty obvious that things have been rough based on the posts I've made this year, huh? I really just want to please everyone, if possible, even though it's probably not entirely possible. So I wind up feeling really negative on a regular basis which...isn't fun. I used to have thick skin but since doing internet content, that's kind of changed which sucks.

Chin up. The vast majority (the non trolling side) of the gaming fan base hold your channel as the number 1 for tech information and deep dives. Don't be so hard on yourself

 

[zeorhymer]

I guess it's pretty obvious that things have been rough based on the posts I've made this year, huh? I really just want to please everyone, if possible, even though it's probably not entirely possible. So I wind up feeling really negative on a regular basis which...isn't fun. I used to have thick skin but since doing internet content, that's kind of changed which sucks.

Number one rule for your well being. Never please everyone. You'll end up not pleasing anyone. You must always do things that you, yourself want and like to do. Even if you lose a few subs, it's nothing compared to your well being. Keep up the good work. It's a very tough and competitive business/hobby.

 

[ZywyPL]

Isn't Patreon THE site, where all those so-called gamer girls from Instagram, Twitch, Twitter, etc. can finally and easily monetize their half-nude/nude pics and vids? I know they are doing way better than ever, that's for sure, many of them almost entirely disappeared from other platforms once they jumped on Patreon. So maybe it's not the Patreon that's the issue here, but the creator and its content? I watch DF videos from time to time, every 3-5th vid to be exact, depending on the topic,/game, but watching every single one of them? Or even more such content? No way, let alone paying for it, especially if you really consider it's indeed 120$ per year, which you can in fact put into PSN/XBL and play the actuall games, instead of watching someone talking about them. The value proposition simply isn't there if you ask me.

 

[GAMETA]

It's hard to keep up with everything.

Writing, recording and editing videos is a lengthy process, I imagine theirs, with those tech reviews, pixel counting and so on, are even lengthier... it also requires focus, meaning you're probably not answering anything while working on the next video...

I imagine they don't have a PR team as well, so yeah...

 

[Naibel]

D dark10x Now that I'm a member of this forum, I can finally tell you that your videos are the absolute GOATs !

You always deliver high quality, very informative productions, with an in-depth technical analysis of old and new games that I enjoy enormously. I'm not joking or exagerating, I mean it ! When there's a new DF Retro showing on my YT notifications, I insta-click and watch it religiously. It's that good !

It sucks so hard to see you not doing so well lately. Internet (social media in particular) is a harsh and cruel place, where compliments and constructive criticism are drowned in a sea of sarcastic one-liners and troll posts. Your content will be sorely missed by many if you end up throwing the towel because of a bunch of unpleasable d-bags.

As others have said, don't please everyone. It doesn't work, and it never will. Do what you want to do, and I'm sure most will thank you immensly for that. Maybe us fans of your content, should be more vocal about it. I'm gonna do my part, that's for sure !

 

[joe_zazen]

Think of your $ as allowing them to continue doing the work you enjoyed in the first place, and not as a "personal" service. The more time they spend talking with you, the less time they have for doing what they do best: analyzing games and hardware.

Yeah, that is the way to approach it.

However, most people asking for patreon money play the ‘i am your virtual friend you lonely person, now give me money to prove it’ card. So when people get upset when they find out that is not the case, and the patreon receivers dont care about you as a person but just your money...well upset happens.

Not all do that of course, and i dont really give a fuck about DF beyond the drama threads they spawn here, so i dont know if they do that.

 

[Fake]

Glad you take your time to answer him D dark10x .
What really depress me is only you answer all of this. None of the other DF guys like to talk about.
And I don't even asking for them to create an account here on neogaf or either resetera.
Everytime I watch a video on youtube, I watch until the end of the video. There, some of DF guys like Richard of Tom, show their twitter account. Gonna tell you, its a bloddy waste of time.
I tried to push a conversation with one of them, but with no results.
I find this so stupid. WTF so you guys leave the twitter acc after all?
You're the only one who answer my tweets and even listen the community.
With what porpuse we pay for patreon if most of the DF guys ignore us?

 

[Salvatron]

I thought a big part of Patreon was the ability to be closer to the content creators.

Unless the creator specifically states this, no. The entire point of patreon is to give monetary patronage to support whatever it is the person is doing... and in turn, some creators provide you with exclusive content. They owe you nothing.

 

[iconmaster]

I tried to push a conversation with one of them, but with no results.
I find this so stupid. WTF so you guys leave the twitter acc after all?
You're the only one who answer my tweets and even listen the community.
With what porpuse we pay for patreon if most of the DF guys ignore us?

This is a really entitled attitude.

You're not contributing for special treatment. You're contributing to keep the content going. If you're not happy about it, just remove your pledge.

 

[GenericUser]

I found out that this alex dude is posting on resetera, that alone is reason enough for me to avoid their content. They also praised the "awesome new engine" of cod modern warfare. Wonder how much activision gave them to spread such nonsense.

 

[joe_zazen]

Unless the creator specifically states this, no. The entire point of patreon is to give monetary patronage to support whatever it is the person is doing... and in turn, some creators provide you with exclusive content. They owe you nothing.

They dont even have to provide exclusive content, it is just a way of raising money. But most creators soon find out that having people feel emotionally attached to you = more money.

 

[joe_zazen]

I found out that this alex dude is posting on resetera, that alone is reason enough for me to avoid their content. They also praised the "awesome new engine" of cod modern warfare. Wonder how activision gave them to spread such nonsense.

They are part of Eurogsmer and have excellent PR contacts, including getting exclusive, world premier kind of stuff from MS. You lay in bed with a dogs, you gonna get fleas.

 

[Fake]

D dark10x don't forget SAGE 2019 please.

 

[Ellis]

D dark10x You're a gentleman, John. A lot of us absolutely love your content, and highly appreciate the work you put into it all.

That being said, you've got to look out for yourself before any of us sad fucks. If you feel the need to take a long break away from all this, then you take it dude.

All the best.

 

[Ban Puncher]

I heartily endorse D dark10x

Because they don’t need patron, they make enough bank through youtube etc you’re just another source of income. Sounds more like a problem with DF.

Never understood donating to anyone personally for video games or streaming etc but each their own.

Once they entered into their marketing agreement with Nintendo for hyperbolic switch port reviews they stopped needing as much external financial support

WHy would you give your money to another company without receiving a service in return?

Lmao. Don't give those idiots a penny. I once saw one of them tell someone on RetardEra "not to refer to women as females".

I found out that this alex dude is posting on resetera, that alone is reason enough for me to avoid their content. They also praised the "awesome new engine" of cod modern warfare. Wonder how activision gave them to spread such nonsense.

 

[joe_zazen]

I guess it's pretty obvious that things have been rough based on the posts I've made this year, huh? I really just want to please everyone, if possible, even though it's probably not entirely possible. So I wind up feeling really negative on a regular basis which...isn't fun. I used to have thick skin but since doing internet content, that's kind of changed which sucks.

Pro tip: most people who are super passionate about this stuff are sociopaths. You can read up on why elsewhere (it boils down to not being able to connect with humans while still being able to emotionally connect with ideas, things, etc. They are not emotionally dead psychopaths. They also tend to have a lot of time on their hands and a lot of anger.)

My advice D dark10x : don’t engage. If you are sensitive, know and embrace that. If it is a non-negotiable requirement for your job, ask if you are in fact suited for that job. Also, take up Buddhism. Food for the Heart by Chah is a good listen.