Students hate toxic masculinity...... But can't define what it is

Nov 13, 2013
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#51
Because toxic masculinity isn't real. It's just another term for someone being an asshole, and was called toxic masculinity by people who wanted to make men feel guilty for being men because they are angry and have a victim complex or had a bad experience with a man.

There is not one example of "toxic masculinity" that just can't be seamlessly replaced by the word asshole and not make sense.
 
Mar 6, 2018
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#52
One of the more recent cases of toxic masculinity, or my definition of it, is the case of Jordan McNair and Maryland Football. Read the story yourself, but basicslly a football player was killed by heat stroke (but really criminal negligence of the training staff) after being initially refused treatment by trainers and a coach who suspected McNair was just “being a pussy,” and needed to “man up and nut up.”

I’m sure he would have loved to “rub some dirt on it” and rejoin drills, but he was dying. Go figure, and be did die.

That’s toxic masculinity.
And you would characterize that anedocte as typical, would you?
Is it typical? That's is a great question if you're talking about generalizing men, making assumptions about them solely based on their gender. It's not a great question when challenging specific behavior that exists, when it occurs, and saying "this is a problem, and we need to raise people not to feel this way, and not to treat people like this."

Yes, there is an issue with generalizing men and demonizing masculinity, but that doesn't mean negative and harmful specifically male behavior doesn't exist, and shouldn't be challenged. The example shared above is a good example of that, here's another:



Negative and harmful specifically female behavior exists as well, but women shouldn't be generalized either. You just point to that harmful behavior when it happens, isolate the example, and make sure people understand that this is wrong.
 
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Feb 22, 2018
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#55
Correct, every developed and most semi-developed countries have banned wage discrimination. Do tens of millions of Indians still shit in the street? Sure, doesn't mean western streets are covered in shit. The real world relevant to those who screeeeeech. Indian feminists are fighting for the right to enter buildings and not get ravaged on buses, for example. Not relevant to the real world here.

Globalists. :messenger_smirking: Borders and context actually matter when it comes to social issues, chaps.
 
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matt404au

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#59
It’s another term borne out of academic feminism. It’s designed to pathologise traditionally masculine testosterone-driven behaviours as part of the power grab. While that may seem reasonable to some during peacetime, they lack the foresight to realise that those same behaviours (aggression, competitiveness, risk-taking, stoicism) are what keep us safe during wartime. The truly toxic behaviours are those trying to demonise masculinity for political gain.
 
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Apr 27, 2018
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#62
I think videos like this are fine and in good fun. My issue arose when people using them as a “smoking gun” like “ALL LIBS” or “ALL TRUMPETS.”

These kids don’t speak for me. They don’t represent me.

One of the more recent cases of toxic masculinity, or my definition of it, is the case of Jordan McNair and Maryland Football. Read the story yourself, but basicslly a football player was killed by heat stroke (but really criminal negligence of the training staff) after being initially refused treatment by trainers and a coach who suspected McNair was just “being a pussy,” and needed to “man up and nut up.”

I’m sure he would have loved to “rub some dirt on it” and rejoin drills, but he was dying. Go figure, and be did die.

That’s toxic masculinity.
The language behind 'toxic masculinity' is sexist, as if these things happen because of male genetics. That's why I don't believe the term will ever be universally used, nevermind that it just sounds stupid.
 
Jul 11, 2018
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#64
Is it typical? That's is a great question if you're talking about generalizing men, making assumptions about them solely based on their gender. It's not a great question when challenging specific behavior that exists, when it occurs, and saying "this is a problem, and we need to raise people not to feel this way, and not to treat people like this."
You talk about the importance of specifics but your paragraph is conspicuously absent of them. Be precise. What kind of behaviour are you talking about? How do you envision "raising people" so that they do not feel "this way"? What is "this way"?, What does "this " look like in "and not to treat people like this"?

I say this because I have a strong suspicion we are going to disagree on the reprehensibility of some of the behaviours you are about to list.

Yes, there is an issue with generalizing men and demonizing masculinity, but that doesn't mean negative and harmful specifically male behavior doesn't exist,
Such as? Be very specific. Also do say how pervasisve you think it is.

Negative and harmful specifically female behavior exists as well, but women shouldn't be generalized either. You just point to that harmful behavior when it happens, isolate the example, and make sure people understand that this is wrong.
I agree, save for the part perhaps betraying a certain totalitarian bent. The bit about making sure people see the world the way you see it, filled with the best intentions as it is, can probably lead to catastrophic results and sensible people need not look that further into the past to realize this.
 
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Mar 6, 2018
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#65
You talk about the importance of specifics but your paragraph is conspicuously absent of them. Be precise. What kind of behaviour are you talking about? How do you envision "raising people" so that they do not feel "this way"? What is "this way"?, What does "this " look like in "and not to treat people like this"?
Such as? Be very specific. Also do say how pervasisve you think it is.
First of all, call me old fashioned, but I envision parents, family members, and perhaps close adolescent friends "raising people," not razor companies. Those are the people who should teach you to respect yourself and others.

But two examples were put forward, and without commenting on those, you've asked for more. So while I would like to hear your opinion on those, the "man up" heat stroke example and the Bill Burr video, let's try a general overview:

I would say toxic masculinity (if you even want to use that term) is when a man is doing doing harm to himself or others by adhering to strict preconceived notions of what it means to "be a man." Because that is something that uniquely affects men, and the underlying reasoning behind it should probably have a some sort of a description.

"Walk it off" when you have a badly sprained ankle, and it's making it worse. "No son of mine is going to [insert anything not traditionally masculine here]" Never being able to tell family members that you love them. "Yeah it's dangerous, do it anyway. Be a man!" And then you end up with a broken bone or worse.

And sure "coward" could be used instead, but if it's a matter of the social pressures that men experience when backing down from fear, and that's what ultimately led to a dangerous and harmful situation, then the description still fits. That description again, as I personally see the issue:

I would say toxic masculinity (if you even want to use that term) is when a man is doing doing harm to himself or others by adhering to strict preconceived notions of what it means to "be a man."

As far as pervasiveness, I don't care to make any assumptions. They're not needed, and they don't change things. If that kind of social pressure did harm to 1 out of every 100,000 men, or 1 out of every 10, it would still be worth thinking about and discouraging.

And if you haven't yet, listen to the Bill Burr story, and let me know what you think.
 
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#66
First of all, call me old fashioned, but I envision parents, family members, and perhaps close adolescent friends "raising people," not razor companies. Those are the people who should teach you to respect yourself and others.
Sure, attempt to teach, And as the individual matures he gets to make up his own mind and arrive at his own conclusions, which nothing in the world could ever possibly guarantee they'll be what you originally intended.

But two examples were put forward, and without commenting on those, you've asked for more. So while I would like to hear your opinion on those, the "man up" heat stroke example and the Bill Burr video, let's try a general overview:
Here it goes:
Jordan McNair - I agree with you. Irrational negligent dangerous behaviour needs to be called out.
YouTube vid - Individual freedom and sovereignty are paramount to me. As long as it doesn't encroach upon the freedom of others, do what you please.

But the context of this discussion was the Gillette ad, where the question of pervasiveness is indeed relevant. If the behaviour you describe are marginal and increasingly more so, which is roughly my impression, the ad is a misrepresentation and misses the mark. .

I would say toxic masculinity (if you even want to use that term) is when a man is doing doing harm to himself or others by adhering to strict preconceived notions of what it means to "be a man." Because that is something that uniquely affects men, and the underlying reasoning behind it should probably have a some sort of a description.
I can accept that definition. The problem arises when the exact same expression is used to condemn behaviours that do not fit the bill.


As far as pervasiveness, I don't care to make any assumptions. They're not needed, and they don't change things. If that kind of social pressure did harm to 1 out of every 100,000 men, or 1 out of every 10, it would still be worth thinking about and discouraging.
I'm sorry but you wouldn't be able to call it social pressure if the pressure was a fringe marginal incident. Social implies a certain scale and magnitude. That's why the issue of pervasiveness is relevant.
 
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Nov 12, 2016
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#67
Hmmmmm.....not at all? Not even a little bit?
If you're going to start this argument, can we start a big movement for shitty women and minorities to fix themselves?

Before any sane man even considers listening to all of the identity politics, double standards will need to go away. Which we know will never happen.
 
Oct 2, 2018
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#69
I think it shows how less these children actually understand from the real world. It is kind of scary that these people will be the future leaders etc. I also loved the gender studies women who tried really hard to remember the shit they had told her in her classes XD
That's the thing, they are young, inexperienced, people. Exposing how little they understand of the world is not really all that illuminating.

Of course they don't know shit. They are just inexperienced kids.

Shit, when I left college I was very well educated in the industry I wanted to work in but still clueless compared to people who had been there for years or even decades.

Regarding stuff like Feminism, ideologically I would have been on a par with these kids. Able to identify issues with buzzwords and able to "fake it" to some extent but actually fucking hopeless once challenged. Like "yay" equal pay and "boo" to the pay gap but push me on the details and I will crumble.

In a way it's sad that they think they know how to create a perfect society but almost all of them will come crashing down.
I'm imagining some kid bounding onto NeoGAF after watching some Feminist Frequency videos thinking they'll impart some solid video game wisdom on some of us old-timers.

What you hope for is that in the process of growing up they will learn a bit more and introduce a bit more nuance into their worldview. Expecting that from people under 25 is unrealistic.
 
May 5, 2013
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#72
Any worthwhile definition of "Toxic masculinity" would have to recognize what a healthy masculinity is, and show that specific toxic behaviors and attitudes that deviate from healthy masculinity. LegendofKage was along the right lines I think, but there are two huge things that would cause problems for the kinds of people most likely to use the term "toxic masculinity" First is that they have a terrible time defining healthy masculinity. Secondly, a reasonable definitions of toxic behavior would point more at cultures other than middle-and-upper-class western culture that was the intended target.
 
Dec 3, 2013
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#73
Any worthwhile definition of "Toxic masculinity" would have to recognize what a healthy masculinity is, and show that specific toxic behaviors and attitudes that deviate from healthy masculinity. LegendofKage was along the right lines I think, but there are two huge things that would cause problems for the kinds of people most likely to use the term "toxic masculinity" First is that they have a terrible time defining healthy masculinity. Secondly, a reasonable definitions of toxic behavior would point more at cultures other than middle-and-upper-class western culture that was the intended target.
Exactly. It's all bullshit.
 
Jun 24, 2007
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#74
The way the definition is thrown around, my idea is that toxic masculinity is a way to attack me
I think videos like this are fine and in good fun. My issue arose when people using them as a “smoking gun” like “ALL LIBS” or “ALL TRUMPETS.”

These kids don’t speak for me. They don’t represent me.

One of the more recent cases of toxic masculinity, or my definition of it, is the case of Jordan McNair and Maryland Football. Read the story yourself, but basicslly a football player was killed by heat stroke (but really criminal negligence of the training staff) after being initially refused treatment by trainers and a coach who suspected McNair was just “being a pussy,” and needed to “man up and nut up.”

I’m sure he would have loved to “rub some dirt on it” and rejoin drills, but he was dying. Go figure, and be did die.

That’s toxic masculinity.
While true, almost. That's what people like Nobody_Important use as an deflection, the real meaning is "a man that won't submit to certain behaviors and politics because a woman told him so is a toxic male".
The april season april fools joke bald guy is a man, to an agenda-driven person he's a toxic male.
The fat guy that embarrassed himself by apologizing in name of all gamers, that's the perfect example of "man" they want.
When they talk about abolishing toxic masculinity, they simply refer to anything that could steer away a man from empathy rather than self-interest and by association, push him towards progressive politics.
tl;dr they want to emasculate men because they're easier to control at a sociopolitical level.
 
Aug 20, 2007
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#75
It’s a viral term. I’d guess a lot of people don’t know what a lot of terms like that mean. SJW, Intel, alt-whatever, etc
I find my self looking these terms up all the time. More labels to toss around and put people in a box.

Find it interesting at least.
 

matt404au

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#77
Any worthwhile definition of "Toxic masculinity" would have to recognize what a healthy masculinity is, and show that specific toxic behaviors and attitudes that deviate from healthy masculinity. LegendofKage was along the right lines I think, but there are two huge things that would cause problems for the kinds of people most likely to use the term "toxic masculinity" First is that they have a terrible time defining healthy masculinity. Secondly, a reasonable definitions of toxic behavior would point more at cultures other than middle-and-upper-class western culture that was the intended target.
It would also need to come with a reciprocal definition of toxic femininity. However, neither label is a productive approach to reducing such behaviours because it focuses on demonising the group based on negative generalisations. A more effective approach would be to praise the group based on positive generalisations, i.e. role models. Of course, this assumes that the intention behind the labels is constructive, which most of us know is not the case.
 
May 20, 2007
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#80
Toxic masculinity are the traits commonly expressed by depressed males.

To solve it we will demonize males as a whole and offer no positive masculine role models or mental health services that specialize in male depression.
 
Dec 3, 2013
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#82
Toxic masculinity doesn't exist. Idiots, on the other hand, exist, and there are idiots on both sexes.
Toxic masculinity are the traits commonly expressed by depressed males.

To solve it we will demonize males as a whole and offer no positive masculine role models or mental health services that specialize in male depression.
Both of these are correct.
 
Nov 12, 2009
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#83
so like ... what kinda jobs does gender studies land you? Cause like the point of having a specialty is to hopefully land a job in said field right? I am curious as to what the options are for this kinda thing other than being a youtuber(which isn't something you need college for at all).
 
Dec 3, 2013
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#84
so like ... what kinda jobs does gender studies land you? Cause like the point of having a specialty is to hopefully land a job in said field right? I am curious as to what the options are for this kinda thing other than being a youtuber(which isn't something you need college for at all).
Videogame and oped bloggers. ;)
 
Jan 9, 2018
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#85
Masculinity is not a toxin in any form; it is simply something natural that has to be channeled towards constructive rather than destructive purposes. The destructive outcomes of men aren't a part of their masculinity, but are attributable to a failure to integrate one's impulses meaningfully into a good social role--and that failure to retain and strengthen institutions that can mediate and shape men is attributable to the same people who now call masculinity a toxin. It's impossible to take any of these voices seriously or to even argue that they deserve a seat at the table.

20th-21st century feminism, on the other hand, surely classifies as a social toxin or contagion that has damaged quite a few minds and institutions. Or... to be more fair, it's an incoherent movement born of a set of prior ideological toxins (anti-natalism; hyper social-constructionism; various distortions of individualism/consumerism; bits and pieces adopted from Marxism as if they don't conflict with the prior; bad readings of whichever psychoanalytic author was dominant at a given time), none of which it could have created and that it merely grants an immunity from critique by setting them behind an ostensibly noble social cause. It generates faux-academics at every higher ed institution now, so that the rest of us have to politely pretend they're genuine colleagues and real intellectuals when we know fully that they are not.

I think it's pretty easy to pick a side in this nonsense.
 

wzy

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Dec 29, 2018
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#86
First of all, call me old fashioned, but I envision parents, family members, and perhaps close adolescent friends "raising people," not razor companies. Those are the people who should teach you to respect yourself and others.

But two examples were put forward, and without commenting on those, you've asked for more. So while I would like to hear your opinion on those, the "man up" heat stroke example and the Bill Burr video, let's try a general overview:

I would say toxic masculinity (if you even want to use that term) is when a man is doing doing harm to himself or others by adhering to strict preconceived notions of what it means to "be a man." Because that is something that uniquely affects men, and the underlying reasoning behind it should probably have a some sort of a description.

"Walk it off" when you have a badly sprained ankle, and it's making it worse. "No son of mine is going to [insert anything not traditionally masculine here]" Never being able to tell family members that you love them. "Yeah it's dangerous, do it anyway. Be a man!" And then you end up with a broken bone or worse.

And sure "coward" could be used instead, but if it's a matter of the social pressures that men experience when backing down from fear, and that's what ultimately led to a dangerous and harmful situation, then the description still fits. That description again, as I personally see the issue:

I would say toxic masculinity (if you even want to use that term) is when a man is doing doing harm to himself or others by adhering to strict preconceived notions of what it means to "be a man."

As far as pervasiveness, I don't care to make any assumptions. They're not needed, and they don't change things. If that kind of social pressure did harm to 1 out of every 100,000 men, or 1 out of every 10, it would still be worth thinking about and discouraging.

And if you haven't yet, listen to the Bill Burr story, and let me know what you think.
The assumption here is that the rigid enforcement of the masculine ideal leads to some kind of gendered pathology (not telling kids you love them, etc.)--which, okay maybe--but the real gatekeepers of masculinity are women. You think the coach is the problem, here? Jesus. My own father doesn't get that much say over my personality. Women are the ones who decide what the masculine ideal is, for incredibly, blindingly, brain-dead obvious reasons. Boys learn this immediately and permanently before they can walk, which is why the people who write articles that tell you what to think and how to act are invariably women. A) they'll work for free, and B) it's already in their wheelhouse. Men turn out like dad is so they'll appeal to mom.

Any guesses on what appeals to mom circa 2025? You've got Genghis Khan and Lil Wayne running the gene pool so I guess figure it out. And good luck with that whole toxic masculinity problem lol
 
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Apr 15, 2018
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#87
The assumption here is that the rigid enforcement of the masculine ideal leads to some kind of gendered pathology (not telling kids you love them, etc.)--which, okay maybe--but the real gatekeepers of masculinity are women. You think the coach is the problem, here? Jesus. My own father doesn't get that much say over my personality. Women are the ones who decide what the masculine ideal is, for incredibly, blindingly, brain-dead obvious reasons. Boys learn this immediately and permanently before they can walk, which is why the people who write articles that tell you what to think and how to act are invariably women. A) they'll work for free, and B) it's already in their wheelhouse. Men turn out like dad is so they'll appeal to mom.

Any guesses on what appeals to mom circa 2025? You've got Genghis Khan and Lil Wayne running the gene pool so I guess figure it out. And good luck with that whole toxic masculinity problem lol
Most boys raised today are raised by women, taught by women and molded by women, even if they have a father in the house. It's actually quite funny. If boys are so fucking toxic, it's partially women's fault
 
Oct 1, 2006
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#88
Most boys raised today are raised by women, taught by women and molded by women, even if they have a father in the house. It's actually quite funny. If boys are so fucking toxic, it's partially women's fault
This is a great point I had never really considered. >75% of teachers are female, and that percentage is even higher for earlier grades. If young men are becoming "toxic", why aren't the women they spend half their day changing that?
 
Nov 3, 2013
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#89
Most boys raised today are raised by women, taught by women and molded by women, even if they have a father in the house. It's actually quite funny. If boys are so fucking toxic, it's partially women's fault
This is a very good point and never thought about it..

If most of the education a boy receives is from women where do they get the "toxic" stuff?
 
Nov 25, 2012
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#90
"Toxic Masculinity" as depicted in media does not exist, but there are elements of masculinity that can become toxic.

For an example, lets take stoicism (the endurance of pain or hardship without the display of feelings and without complaint). This is often considered to be a masculine trait. And there are times when it is needed, such as in the past when men would need to work long hours at demanding jobs without complaint in order to support their families.
Men learn this early on in various ways, such as with the "ball breaking" we engage in as children. Teasing and being teased teaches us how to figuratively roll with the punches, so to speak. Play fighting quite literally teached us how to roll with the punches, and not show pain. Even this behavior can become toxic (bullying), but I believe that there is a fine line of distinction so it's not all one and the same and treating it as such can be harmful.

What would I say is an example of masculinity becoming toxic? The Bleeding Out letter by Clint Malarchuck. (OT thread).

First, I thought about something I’d been told going all the way back to peewee league: If you get hurt, don’t lay there on the ice like a weakling. Get up and go. Get yourself off that ice. Show that you’re tough.
This psychologist just wouldn’t quit talking about that night in Buffalo, and how it must’ve caused some trauma. I remember she kept using that word again and again: trauma. I was, I don’t know … insulted. I kept going on about how I was the man in Buffalo, and how they love players with real toughness and grit up there. It was like, What do you know, lady? I’m a hero in Buffalo. They love me up there. Do you understand the amazing comeback I made in that town? Back on the ice after 10 days? Come on!

I fought it like you wouldn’t believe. But she wouldn’t quit.
TL : DR - Misapplied masculinity can be toxic, but masculinity in itself is not.
 
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Feb 3, 2018
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#98
I like the face palm, but you still haven't proved it. You can argue that I implied a generalisation, but that's you making the leap, because that's not what I said.
Not all people who wear MAGA hats are racist, but a lot of racists seem to wear MAGA hats.

I wouldn't put them up there with the KKK white hood, because that was never beating around the bush, but we'll see how things go. Still time to change my mind.
Cool. I mean you're asking me to prove an impossible. What is a lot? Would you take 1 or 3? Like a lot to me, is different from a lot to you, it's why we don't use, "a lot" as a unit of measurement. So what are you asking me here? Do I need to define to you what a lot is to me and then prove that the criteria has been met? Dude, it's fine to be defensive, when you think someone is calling you a racist. I didn't say all MAGA hat wearers are racists, I didn't even say a majority, I said a lot, a unit that can only work for me sooo...are you worried you would fit the criteria?
Guys. These are the dumbest videos ever. They're not worthless, they can give some people a good laugh.

Though I'm surprised in some people decrying all students based on this video, when in other threads they decry generalisation....


There, you are full of shit and now have the proof. Nice look insuinuating other members are racist for 'potentially' wearing a hat. Glad to have you back! Keep it up! :messenger_ok:
 
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#99
There, you are full of shit and now have the proof. Nice look insuinuating other members are racist for 'potentially' wearing a hat. Glad to have you back! Keep it up! :messenger_ok:
Dude why are you so triggered? I'm all about the love. I'll give you a hug if it helps.

You've still not proven anything. I'll help you come to a point.

I didn't say all MAGA hat wearers are racist. You can see that in first line of the 2nd quote. I explicitly state that. You just seem so triggered about the second part. At best you can argue I'm implying that some MAGA hat wearers are racists, but that leaps being made by you not me.

So is that what you are upset about? That I implied MAGA hat wearers have a probability of being racist?