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[Piers]

That would be fine if Nintendo lived in a vacuum, but there are other factors, such as third parties who aren't pleased at all with the Wii.

And here's (mostly) why people ditched the Wii in favour of PS360 once they got bored of motion controls.

The paranoia over WiiU's specs* and online functionality is hope that Nintendo will try to take into account that these are what people ultimately turned to in the end.

EDIT: Just remembered as well, but lacklustre 3rd party support was apparently in part due to Nintendo games stealing the thunder in sells as wells? If I recall? Not sure if that'll be the case with WiiU again.

*AC3, ME3 and Arkham City are all great stuff in terms of recent additions. It's 3-4 years down the line that hopefully there won't be another Wii scenario.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Its technologically impossible for the WiiU CPU to be Wii cores. Its that simple unless Nintendo has worked some witchcraft and Broadway suddenly became a monster.

It would seem more likely that they took a new part and and stripped it down to certain specifications than it is that they just took Broadway and went "More cores!"

I still stand on the new CPU, but stripped and downclocked side of the fence. Depending on how they specified they could take something new and make it look like a natural evolution of Broadway.

 

[Barack Lesnar]

One of the things I noticed in past threads about Samaritan and the Elemental demo for example is that art style affects perception. There were quite a few posts where people couldn't separate the art style from the tech and what that tech was accomplishing in those demos. I don't see art styles for mainstream games having a dramatic shift. And if we are seeing people that post here having trouble seeing it, then what about the majority that don't post on message boards? Some of these late gen PS3 games (if they are staying on PS3) aren't going to help either.

I don't think so, Tim. A very small % of forumers who saw Samaritan and the other demos/games "couldn't separate the art from the tech" and weren't impressed. Go read the threads. You'll also notice one other common trait amongst most (not all) of these people who didn't notice much of a difference: they're Nintendudes (can I trademark this term?). The guy who posted in this thread saying as much, Snowden's Secret, is a Nintendude. Someone had to say it. I'm tired of beating around the bush. Every one of these graphics threads is filled with people with hidden agendas and not-so-obvious biases but rarely do people mention it.

 

[DynamicG]

It would seem more likely that they took a new part and and stripped it down to certain specifications than it is that they just took Broadway and went "More cores!"

I still stand on the new CPU, but stripped and downclocked side of the fence. Depending on how they specified they could take something new and make it look like a natural evolution of Broadway.

I think you are correct, but there the majority in here seem to argue that the WiiU CPU is literally 3 broadways strapped together, even though that has been discussed as being physically impossible. Your arguments are significantly more nuanced than most of the talk in here.

 

[DynamicG]

I don't think so, Tim. A very small % of forumers who saw Samaritan and the other demos/games "couldn't separate the art from the tech" and weren't impressed. Go read the threads. You'll also notice one other common trait amongst most (not all) of these people who didn't notice much of a difference: they're Nintendudes (can I trademark this term?). The guy who posted in this thread saying as much, Snowden's Secret, is a Nintendude. Someone had to say it. I'm tired of beating around the bush. Every one of these graphics threads is filled with people with hidden agendas and not-so-obvious biases but rarely do people mention it.

So neogaf is now a representative sample of gamers? Good to know.

 

[Barack Lesnar]

So neogaf is now a representative sample of gamers? Good to know.

I'm not understanding your point here and how it relates to my reply to bg.

 

[OniShiro]

So neogaf is now a representative sample of gamers? Good to know.

It's a representative sample of hardcore gamers, who in the end sustain this industry, so I'd say our opinion matters.

 

[LCGeek]

Wii ports are so bad because of tech limitations, if it was in the same league as the PS360 ports would have been identical for the 3 consoles, but it's not profitable to redo a whole game just for the Wii because assets and code can't be reused.

I wasn't solely referring to Wii ports just general nature of even attempting to use the system nor was it solely a Wii comment. Even when nintendo has been equal, on par, or better in certain areas storage was an excuse despite various companies on N64 and GC using compression techniques to get things done. If it's not the system it's the controller. Back and forth all the time sick of 3rd parties and their excuses no matter the generation for sloppy ports or ground up games.

PS3 and 360 share shit ports lets not mention skyrim and other titles that run like crap even without Wii in the equation.

 

[Steph_E.]

It's a complete waste of everyone's time to come into a thread about technical specifications and complain "who cares about specs?" If you don't want to discuss them, there are dozens of other threads to read.

CaptNfantasy's original post was not saying "who cares about specs?", it was saying if anyone is here merely to moan that the Wii U is not as powerful as machine X that is not helpful nor does it further the discussion.

As we all know, the Wii U has not been designed to be a monster machine that is going to blow away everything else for the forseeable future. It has been designed to do a specific job, in order to make as much money as possible for Nintendo. How well it does that job is still to be seen. How Nintendo has set about achieving this aim,ie the technical specifications, is an interesting area of discussion, and is not what CaptNfantasy (or I) was commenting on.

 

[Drinky Crow]

you idiots ARE aware that devs don't code to the metal any more, by and large, and that not only are there these things called "apis" but that there is likewise a large middleware and tools space that nintendo seems to reliably shit all over

 

[Metal Gear?!]

About why they culled BC on Wii. Was it just production costs of controller and mem card slots, and were any chips removed from the PCB?

Slot loading disc drives that can take the small-sized Gamecube discs are much, much more expensive than regular slot-loading disc drives.

 

[MadeInBeats]

how about you look back a few pages & see that the info is coming from someone other than the person with 5 post.

No need, 5 post guy got it on lock.

We have been wondering where to place expresso's statements before, but what arkam said matches that info, and Arkam is verified by the mods. What Arkam clarified that the statement is not from an engineering level, which was one of the original major issues.

The "enchanted Broadway" statement may only really benefit devs that did take the time to push the Gamecube/Wii, like Nintendo's first party and capcom. For others, it is more like a warning that "this CPU is nothing like xenon or cell", since they are accustomed to work with the strengths and weaknesses of those chips.

I'm selective about which random guys on the net I'll listen to. 5 post dude, no chance. I've checked Arkam out and he isn't a tech guy; the last dev kit he knew of was V4; he is no longer involved in any Wii U project (since at least V4); he says his studio has no interest in exploiting WiiU hardware, their only interest is dirty porting their PS360 code in as least time as possible.

Also, he says Wii U is weaker than a 360 when we have other devs on record saying that just isn't true; I suppose Jackson from Warner Bros who posts here would be a good example.

That's what I know. That said if the mods verified him, then you have to consider his posts.

Just the ports, and something about the disc drive being able to eat the (smaller) GC discs. Wii CPU/GPU are completely identical to Gamecube's with a 50% bump in clock speed. The only architectural differences are
1)what used to be Gamecube's main memory is now a single chip merged onto the GPU package
2)the old A-RAM has been replaced with a single (bigger) GDDR3 chip
3)separate embedded management processor running exclusively OS stuff (IOS)

Slot loading disc drives that can take the small-sized Gamecube discs are much, much more expensive than regular slot-loading disc drives.

I learned stuff today, thanks. I suppose all that added up saved them a nice bit of bunce.

 

[LCGeek]

you idiots ARE aware that devs don't code to the metal any more, by and large, and that not only are there these things called "apis" but that there is likewise a large middleware and tools space that nintendo seems to reliably shit all over

I say it all the time still doesn't change the fact neither them or 3rd parties really exploit the systems, so what is the point aiming for power. If nintendo can't get in to the necessary tier that devs like themselves why half ass even more than they are now?

 

[Thunder Monkey]

you idiots ARE aware that devs don't code to the metal any more, by and large, and that not only are there these things called "apis" but that there is likewise a large middleware and tools space that nintendo seems to reliably shit all over

This is where patented Nintendo crazy sauce comes in.

I like the flavor so that says some really twisted things about me.

 

[bangai-o]

It's (Neogaf) a representative sample of hardcore gamers, who in the end sustain this industry, so I'd say our opinion matters.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

It's a representative sample of hardcore gamers, who in the end sustain this industry, so I'd say our opinion matters.

Dude that's pretty funny.

 

[Sid]

This is where patented Nintendo crazy sauce comes in.

I like the flavor so that says some really twisted things about me.

You like nintendo ok but what crazy sauce are you talking about?where was it with the wii,ds or even the 3ds?

 

[EloquentM]

you idiots ARE aware that devs don't code to the metal any more, by and large, and that not only are there these things called "apis" but that there is likewise a large middleware and tools space that nintendo seems to reliably shit all over

why was he banned for this post?

Spoiler

lol

 

[LCGeek]

why was he banned for this post?

Spoiler

lol

He isn't banned that's just a joke.

 

[Kai Dracon]

I thought people who played CoD and Gears of War and didn't know their Xbox was set to "SD" half the time were the actual backbone of the games industry today.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

You like nintendo ok but what crazy sauce are you talking about?where was it with the wii,ds or even the 3ds?

Wii in the hardware design. Software usage of the hardware was just about perfect. Without WiiSports the Wii wouldn't have had a "hook" and without the Wiimote WiiSports wouldn't have been fun. But they really could have gotten something close to "360 visuals in SD" if they'd have just updated the GPU and tossed in a little bit more RAM. Even 128MB and a newer GPU would have made porting a lot easier.

DS and 3DS seem like completely natural hardware updates for Nintendo. They could go for more power, but honestly... they like their gimmicks. Sometimes it's magic, other times it's misfire.

 

[big_erk]

Slot loading disc drives that can take the small-sized Gamecube discs are much, much more expensive than regular slot-loading disc drives.

This was always my thought on why BC was removed from Wii. That, and by the time it was removed the vast majority of Gamecube owners who wanted a Wii already had one.

 

[EloquentM]

He isn't banned that's just a joke.

hence my "lol"

 

[Übermatik]

He isn't banned that's just a joke.

Um, I think he knows that. He was joking too.

 

[Drinky Crow]

I say it all the time still doesn't change the fact neither them or 3rd parties really exploit the systems, so what is the point aiming for power. If nintendo can't get in to the necessary tier that devs like themselves why half ass even more than they are now?

oh, i dunno, so middleware and tools partners can effectively SUPPORT your platform and ENABLE advanced gameplay and graphics scenarios

stuff like that

 

[LCGeek]

oh, i dunno, so middleware and tools partners can effectively SUPPORT your platform and ENABLE advanced gameplay and graphics scenarios

stuff like that

What partners?

Both 3rd parties and nintendo shoot themselves in the foot in this area for different reasons.

 

[bgassassin]

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1648599&postcount=1193

Check your sources man! And like I say... who is he... and ... 5 posts! Come on.

It is true that I was told that and even lherre said it at one point in the old WUST thread. Until we know for sure otherwise, I still think the first kit used a modified Xenon and it was dropped in the second kit. Vigil is on record as saying things they did in the first kit couldn't be done in the second. The first kit CPU having SMT was pretty consistently mentioned, but talk about that went away.

Side note: I asked one of those people I mentioned in that post what he had to say about Espresso's postings, and while he said he would check into it, he did say the CPU's code name was Espresso. So take that as you will.

I don't think so, Tim. A very small % of forumers who saw Samaritan and the other demos/games "couldn't separate the art from the tech" and weren't impressed. Go read the threads. You'll also notice one other common trait amongst most (not all) of these people who didn't notice much of a difference: they're Nintendudes (can I trademark this term?). The guy who posted in this thread saying as much, Snowden's Secret, is a Nintendude. Someone had to say it. I'm tired of beating around the bush. Every one of these graphics threads is filled with people with hidden agendas and not-so-obvious biases but rarely do people mention it.

Compared to the past it is quite a few which is my point. And there you go again labeling it as being "Nintendo fans" as being the ones and having hidden agendas and whatever. Go back and look at those threads and you'll see that's not the case.

When it's come to these "biases", you've been the one continually harping on them. And at times to the point where they don't even exist.

 

[Rolf NB]

What partners?

Epic? Criware? Havok? Fmod?

 

[DeuceGamer]

It is true that I was told that and even lherre said it at one point in the old WUST thread. Until we know for sure otherwise, I still think the first kit used a modified Xenon and it was dropped in the second kit. Vigil is on record as saying things they did in the first kit couldn't be done in the second. The first kit CPU having SMT was pretty consistently mentioned, but talk about that went away.

Side note: I asked one of those people I mentioned in that post what he had to say about Espresso's postings, and while he said he would check into it, he did say the CPU's code name was Espresso. So take that as you will.

That would be a pretty monumental coincidence.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

I thought people who played CoD and Gears of War and didn't know their Xbox was set to "SD" half the time were the actual backbone of the games industry today.

The biggest differences between these games and similar experiences on the Wii wasn't just resolution.

 

[MadeInBeats]

It is true that I was told that and even lherre said it at one point in the old WUST thread. Until we know for sure otherwise, I still think the first kit used a modified Xenon and it was dropped in the second kit. Vigil is on record as saying things they did in the first kit couldn't be done in the second. The first kit CPU having SMT was pretty consistently mentioned, but talk about that went away.

Side note: I asked one of those people I mentioned in that post what he had to say about Espresso's postings, and while he said he would check into it, he did say the CPU's code name was Espresso. So take that as you will.

Now that to me makes it sound like a funny troll; a troll with a taste of inside info, or of course could indicate an insider. But no reason to believe what he has to say. And would official info from IBM fit into it anyway?

IBM tells us that within the Wii U there's a 45nm custom chip with "a lot" of embedded DRAM (shown above). It's a silicon on insulator design and packs the same processor technology found in Watson

Was the Wii CPU related to Watson too then?
~http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/07/ibm-puts-watsons-brains-in-nintendo-wii-u/

 

[stupidvillager]

Was the Wii CPU related to Watson too then?
~http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/07/ibm-puts-watsons-brains-in-nintendo-wii-u/

Another thing, I know its PR talk but IBM said it is an "all new processor". With the Wii they just said it is "customized". They could have said the same thing for the Wii U, but they didn't. Whether that means anything...who knows.

 

[bgassassin]

Now that to me makes it sound like a funny troll, of course could indicate an insider. But still no reason to believe what he has to say. And would official info from IBM fit into it anyway?



Was the Wii CPU related to Watson too then?
~http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/07/ibm-puts-watsons-brains-in-nintendo-wii-u/

We talked about that early on and that could easily mean just the eDRAM as I believe the L2 cache is eDRAM. It's IBM PR as I've seen them refer to Watson for other things beyond Wii U.

As for Espresso the poster, there's really no reason to doubt him either. He could be exaggerating some of what he is saying and/or could also be taking "enhanced Broadway" too literally since like I mention the 476FP could be considered an enhanced Broadway. But we've had too much talk about the CPU to say he's wrong and trolling. Even Iwata commented on it by saying:

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...-now-on-to-compete-over-graphics-7936301.html

Staying with graphics but going back to the idea of getting third parties involved, have you approached Epic with the specs of the Wii U to try to make sure that third-parties using Unreal Engine 4 can easily port their games to Wii U?



I think that the Wii U will be powerful enough to run very high spec games but the architecture is obviously different than other consoles so there is a need to do some tuning if you really want to max out the performance.



We’re not going to deliver a system that has so much horsepower that no matter what you put on there it will run beautifully, and also, because we’re selling the system with the GamePad – which adds extra cost to the package – we don’t want to inflate the cost of each unit by putting in excessive CPU power.

Iwata has talked about this at least twice about different architecture so my take is that they plan to rely more on the GPU for certain things when looking at all factors.

 

[onQ123]

It is true that I was told that and even lherre said it at one point in the old WUST thread. Until we know for sure otherwise, I still think the first kit used a modified Xenon and it was dropped in the second kit. Vigil is on record as saying things they did in the first kit couldn't be done in the second. The first kit CPU having SMT was pretty consistently mentioned, but talk about that went away.

Side note: I asked one of those people I mentioned in that post what he had to say about Espresso's postings, and while he said he would check into it, he did say the CPU's code name was Espresso. So take that as you will.

Now that's crazy & I think there should be a new thread also.

 

[Sid]

Now that's crazy & I think there should be a new thread also.

For just the cpu info?

 

[MadeInBeats]

Another thing, I know its PR talk but IBM said it is an "all new processor". With the Wii they just said it is "customized". They could have said the same thing for the Wii U, but they didn't. Whether that means anything...who knows.

Did they say that on record then? That's significant.

We talked about that early on and that could easily mean just the eDRAM as I believe the L2 cache is eDRAM. It's IBM PR as I've seen them refer to Watson for other things beyond Wii U.

As for Espresso the poster, there's really no reason to doubt him either. He could be exaggerating some of what he is saying and/or could also be taking "enhanced Broadway" too literally since like I mention the 476FP could be considered an enhanced Broadway. But we've had too much talk about the CPU to say he's wrong and trolling. Even Iwata commented on it by saying:

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...-now-on-to-compete-over-graphics-7936301.html

Iwata has talked about this at least twice about different architecture so my take is that they plan to rely more on the GPU for certain things when looking at all factors.

Well, he's a totally random poster. This is the internet, people just do things for a laugh and like the challenge of sounding convincing to throw the cat among the pigeons. Everything as I see it based and lots and lots and lots of ifs buts and maybes, there's no denying it. When I say trolling I don't mean a fanboy who wants to shit on the Wii U, for all anyone knows, an enhanced Broadway might be a wicked CPU when coded for ground up!

Arkam definitely had issues with his people wanting to dirty port PS360 code, but I trust that Iwata didn't lie to investors and as long as none of this effects developers once code bases and programming practises are set, then who gives two shits about semantics.

 

[DeuceGamer]

Now that's crazy & I think there should be a new thread also.

Was the code name even known before Bgassassin posted that?

 

[stupidvillager]

Did they say that on record then? That's significant.

Yes. The all-new, Power-based microprocessor will pack some of IBM's most advanced technology into an energy-saving silicon package that will power Nintendo's brand new entertainment experience for consumers worldwide. IBM's unique embedded DRAM, for example, is capable of feeding the multi-core processor large chunks of data to make for a smooth entertainment experience. For the Wii U.



And for the Wii.."The IBM team has worked hard to design, develop and deliver this customized Power microprocessor for the worldwide launch of Nintendo’s new system,” said Ron Martino, director, IBM Technology Collaboration Solutions. “When millions of gamers take the controls of Wii this holiday season, the IBM logo will once again be front and center on this innovative new product.”. Could mean nothing though

 

[onQ123]

Did they say that on record then? That's significant.



Well, he's a totally random poster. This is the internet, people just do things for a laugh and like the challenge of sounding convincing to throw the cat among the pigeons. Everything as I see it based and lots and lots and lots of ifs buts and maybes, there's no denying it. When I say trolling I don't mean a fanboy who wants to shit on the Wii U, for all anyone knows, an enhanced Broadway might be a wicked CPU when coded for ground up!

Arkam definitely had issues with his people wanting to dirty port PS360 code, but I trust that Iwata didn't lie to investors and as long as none of this effects developers once code bases and programming practises are set, then who gives two shits about semantics.

a random poster who happen to have said the same thing that's being said now by a insider,

a random poster who happens to be named Espresso which is now said to be the codename for the CPU in the Wii U that he posted the info about.

makes too much sense to be just some random poster.

Was the code name even known before Bgassassin posted that?

Not that I know of.

 

[MadeInBeats]

Yes. The all-new, Power-based microprocessor will pack some of IBM's most advanced technology into an energy-saving silicon package that will power Nintendo's brand new entertainment experience for consumers worldwide. IBM's unique embedded DRAM, for example, is capable of feeding the multi-core processor large chunks of data to make for a smooth entertainment experience. For the Wii U.



And for the Wii.."The IBM team has worked hard to design, develop and deliver this customized Power microprocessor for the worldwide launch of Nintendo’s new system,” said Ron Martino, director, IBM Technology Collaboration Solutions. “When millions of gamers take the controls of Wii this holiday season, the IBM logo will once again be front and center on this innovative new product.”. Could mean nothing though

https://twitter.com/IBMWatson/status/78473693843562498

@IBMWATSON is it true that they're sticking you inside of #WiiU?

@TheDavidHansen #WiiU uses same #power7 chips.

On record info from IBM on Wii U CPU

> all-new, Power-based microprocessor
> energy-saving silicon
> some of IBM's most advanced technology
> 45nm custom chip
> "a lot" of embedded DRAM
> embedded DRAM capable of feeding the multi-core processor large chunks of data
> silicon on insulator design
> processor technology found in Watson
> uses same power7 chips

Not that I know of.

 

[Always-honest]

On record info from IBM on Wii U CPU

> all-new, Power-based microprocessor
> energy-saving silicon
> some of IBM's most advanced technology
> 45nm custom chip
> "a lot" of embedded DRAM
> embedded DRAM capable of feeding the multi-core processor large chunks of data
> silicon on insulator design
> processor technology found in Watson
> uses same power7 chips

So, is this good or bad news if true?

 

[LCGeek]

Epic? Criware? Havok? Fmod?

Havok is included and hasn't complained about nintendo. I know nothing about Fmod and won't comment.

Epic is just looking for another sugar daddy. They had garbage support this gen outside of gears and weren't too special last gen on on the consoles they were on either. Everytime the open their mouth about nintendo I stop listening considering they don't have the size to really be multiplatform without a company like MS giving them money.

Crytek is in a smiliar situation. Instead of developing anything last gen they let ubisoft make a garbage product of farcry on nintendo. They don't have the size to really be involved which is why crysis 2 performed the way it did and still aren't serious about what platform or direction they want to take since the first game. I'd love to have them be more seriously about consoles but so far it's been a mess not just in terms of development but how they presented themselves.

Nintendo and fps companies don't mix we could easily bring in their relationship with id software to demonstrate. The needs of these 3 companies for nintendo is simply doesn't gel with me despite the fact fps games were at one point something nintendo could sell well on their platforms.

 

[XtremeXpider]

https://twitter.com/IBMWatson/status/78473693843562498

7:49 am - 8 jun 11 <--- twitter date...

 

[Shin Johnpv]

It's a representative sample of hardcore gamers, who in the end sustain this industry, so I'd say our opinion matters.

No they dont. The casuals which make up the larger body of people buying and playing games are the ones who sustain the industry. There are more joe blow average casual gamer than there are hardcore gamers.

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

Epic? Criware? Havok? Fmod?

Havok's license is actually included in the base Wii U dev kit iirc. I don't believe Sony or MS offer that either.

 

[marc^o^]

a random poster who happen to have said the same thing that's being said now by a insider,

a random poster who happens to be named Espresso which is now said to be the codename for the CPU in the Wii U that he posted the info about.

makes too much sense to be just some random poster.








Not that I know of.

I think this is legit. Wii U is meant to be in the same range as PS3/x360 in terms of performance. Had E3 reception been better, I'm sure Nintendo would have even been ok with specs a bit lower than current next gen. Now I believe they felt a bit of pressure from 3rd parties, and greenlighted a last hardware enhancement.

 

[XtremeXpider]

I think this is legit. Wii U is meant to be in the same range as PS3/x360 in terms of performance. Had E3 reception been better, I'm sure Nintendo would have even been ok with specs a bit lower than current next gen. Now I believe they felt a bit of pressure from 3rd parties, and greenlighted a last hardware enhancement.

But IBMWatson twitter say CPU is Power7 based, how can it be Broadway based and Power7 based?

 

[DeuceGamer]

But IBMWatson twitter say CPU is Power7 based, how can it be Broadway based and Power7 based?

I believe if you read the quotes, it's very ambiguous. It says it's "Power-based" and that it "contains Power7 technology", iirc. It does say "all-new" but even then to have a tri-core, it would have to be considered "all-new", right?

At any rate, I don't think we'll know anything for sure, until someone tears one down but it's fun to speculate.

 

[JordanN]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-TYPK0qDm6IE/T9PxZwAYyHI/AAAAAAAAARI/SzJiJ0SnhUs/s1600/Wii+U+CPU.jpg


Wii U CPU is 3 Wii CPU Cores clocked a bit higher "enhanced broadway"


I always believed

That reads like BS. Being clocked close to the Wii and having performance akin to Xenon reads as foolhardy.

How come Dead Rising, which was ported to the Wii, did not have anywhere as much as 500 zombies, the original did? Now remember, it's been confirmed Wii U can handle over twice that number, and with greater ease.

 

[XtremeXpider]

I believe if you read the quotes, it's very ambiguous. It says it's "Power-based" and that it "contains Power7 technology", iirc. It does say "all-new" but even then to have a tri-core, it would have to be considered "all-new", right?

At any rate, I don't think we'll know anything for sure, until someone tears one down but it's fun to speculate.

He said: "#WiiU uses same #power7 chips."