Sweden: Manga images 'not child porn'

[Danj]

There was a thread about the original conviction but it had a terrible thread title and was 2 years old, plus this is a new development which I think under NewGAF rules qualifies it for a new thread.

Japanese manga comics depicting children in sexual poses are not child pornography, Sweden's Supreme Court has ruled, overturning a high-profile conviction of a Swedish translator.

In a ruling issued on Friday, the court acquitted Simon Lundström, who had been found guilty of child pornography crimes by two lower courts before appealing his case to Sweden's highest court.

[...]

According to the Supreme Court's ruling, the drawings are pornographic and they do portray children.

However, because the cartoons represent imaginary figures there is no way they could be mistaken for real children.

"The criminalization of possession of the drawings would otherwise exceed what is necessary with regard to the purpose which has led to the restriction on freedom of expression and freedom of information," the court said in a statement.

[...]

Lundström's attorney, Leif Silbersky, expressed his satisfaction with the ruling.

"It's heartening that common sense has prevailed. The Supreme Court has an excellent way of cutting through the formalities and coming to the right conclusion. The ruling is very good in its entirety," he told the TT news agency.

More at TheLocal.se.

Discuss.

 

[Majine]

I'm glad for Simons sake, but so fucking dissapointed in my country about this whole thing.

Made a thread about it when it all started

 

[Sniper McBlaze]

Thank fucking god. Sweden is such a shit place to live sometimes. We take political correctness to a whole new level where it almost touches parody.

 

[Baconsaurus Rex]

Good for the lolicon fans.

 

[Danj]

Good for the lolicon fans.

I'm not into that sort of thing myself but from a purely logistical point of view it makes more sense to put resources towards dealing with images that represent actual real harm to actual real children rather than attacking stuff like this because it's a soft target that can be used to make prosecution statistics look good.

 

[Dambrosi]

I'm not saying word one about the ruling as it pertains to child exploitation and freedom of speech/expression, since it doesn't directly affect me in the UK.

I am glad for Simon Lundström, though. There's no way he should have been convicted over translating pornographic comics he didn't even draw himself, and I hope he gets a big fat wad of compensation for time served.

 

[Captain_Spanky]

A picture of a pipe is not a pipe.

 

[Spiffy_1st]

This is the type of thing that could probably get unbanned in a lot of countries (it's illegal in the UK!), but no one wants to start a campaign because it's too weird.

 

[Mr Swine]

I'm not saying word one about the ruling as it pertains to child exploitation and freedom of speech/expression, since it doesn't directly affect me in the UK.

I am glad for Simon Lundström, though. There's no way he should have been convicted over translating pornographic comics he didn't even draw himself, and I hope he gets a big fat wad of compensation for time served.

Sadly he won't, probably get 1000 sek as most...

 

[Krev]

Smart.

 

[lethial]

So gross. If you look at cartoon children in sexual poses you're fucking weird no matter what.

 

[Dambrosi]

This is the type of thing that could probably get unbanned in a lot of countries (it's illegal in the UK!), but no one wants to start a campaign because it's too weird.

Especially in the UK. With our news media? AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAno.

 

[Amir0x]

i definitely think it's horrifying and I wouldn't want to be associated with anyone who looks at this stuff (nor would I want my kids around them)

that said, I always go back and forth in my head about actually making it illegal. on the one hand no one gets hurt in these images. on the other, fucking gross and I would like to do anything to reduce pedos enjoyment in life. I don't know if society should encourage this sort of thing in any form. I mean at least if it's illegal there's a taboo there. But I don't know, it's much like how I don't understand how photographers can go to nudist camps, take pictures of little girls and then post them on the web without fear of repercussions. Is that "art?"

 

[Hilti92]

So gross. If you look at cartoon children in sexual poses you're fucking weird no matter what.

Agreed. I don't get the whole manga and anime appeal but regardless.. weird.

 

[CornBurrito]

So gross. If you look at cartoon children in sexual poses you're fucking weird no matter what.

There's a difference between weird and morally wrong. Looking at drawn pictures doesn't put real kids in harms way so you'd be hard pressed to explain why it should be illegal.

I would like to do anything to reduce pedos enjoyment in life.

I highly doubt pedos choose to be pedos, so I see no harm in giving them an outlet for their inappropriate urges that harms nobody. As for pictures of nudists... wat? The OP is talking about manga.

 

[ksan]

I think the thread title might be an misinterpretation of the actual ruling.
At least one of the pictures would have been deemed to be illegal to have in possesion for any other normal person, however as the the guy was as an "expert" (due to having lived in Japan and being a professional manga translator) the law in this case doesn't apply to him the exactly the same way.

I would think it would be akin to some academic fields or other professional work
(for example in this case the Supreme Court talked about it being a part of Japanese culture, and that there needs to be opportunities to study it for academics/professionals)

Spoiler

and no, I don't think this refers to "I don't know about you guys, but I'm an expert"-type of people =D

TL;DR: this ruling isn't a precedent for normal people having these types of drawings in their possession

 

[bengraven]

Waiting for plane.jpg.

 

[dondarm]

Waiting for plane.jpg.

Meh.

 

[Amir0x]

I highly doubt pedos choose to be pedos, so I see no harm in giving them an outlet for their inappropriate urges that harms nobody. As for pictures of nudists... wat? The OP is talking about manga.

I'm sure some do, some don't. I know nudists aren't even close to the same as this. I was just saying it's a subject as confusing to me as that in regards to the gray areas of the law. Technically the nudist thing is legal too, I believe. But I'd similarly have an innate desire to stop it the same as I want to stop this: I'm not sure I'd say it's a 'gateway drug' type phenomenon, but I do not know if I don't agree that the more these people surround themselves by such corrupt imagery, the more likely they'd be to eventually act on it. It's especially problematic because unlike other fetishes, there's no way they ever COULD act on it without it being horrible rape.

At least with other fetishes, you could occasionally find an outlet for it. With this, I think it must be sort of like pressure building. That pressure wouldn't really release just because they blew their load: eventually, at least some small percentage might want the real thing.

I wish there were studies on this. But as far as I'm concerned, I think society benefits from literally isolating the problem and trying to eradicate it as much as possible. Sometimes animals inherently weed out such corruptions in the genetic pool (though not for something like this, obviously). There is some benefit in the shunning and cutting off at the seams of this type.

 

[Conciliator]

So gross. If you look at cartoon children in sexual poses you're fucking weird no matter what.

REALLY fucking weird. I'd like to think the western world doesn't criminalize things for being weird, though.

 

[Brian Griffin]

Score one for rationality. As weird as a fetish may be, as long and no one is getting hurt who can't consent to it (BDSM and such between adults) there should be no laws barring it. Go Sweden!

 

[Spiffy_1st]

I wish there were studies on this.

Yeah, are pedophiles more likely to rape than anyone else? I haven't found an outlet for my adult female fetish, but I'm not going out raping. Maybe there are pedophiles everywhere but only a few of them rape and no one wants to talk about their children fetish because it's so taboo and everyone will assume they're going to rape their kids.

 

[Brian Griffin]

There is some benefit in the shunning and cutting off at the seams of this type.

I've always thought that pedophilia being the most taboo thing in the country was actually detrimental to the ultimate goal of reducing the number of children harmed by it. I think if pedophiles were actually able to be even slightly open about their thoughts and desires without fear of having their lives destroyed they might be able to have better success in suppressing them. Of course the predatory ones who don't care won't change but those who realize it's wrong and never want to act on it won't have to keep everything to themselves and risk so much pent up frustration that they snap and end up hurting a child.

 

[Jim E. Rossler]

What would happen if you took porn with females away from the straight male population, but left all other porn? You think they would suddenly switch to gay porn because that's all that's left? Or they'd stop looking at porn and go be more productive members of society? No, they'd find a different outlet. The same goes for people who fap to loli/shota. The difference is one group has a viable alternative outlet, and the other doesn't.

At least normal people have the option to get laid legally to take out their urges, I dont want pedo's thinking there is NO other option than my little sisters, since cp is illegal and now drawings are illegal.

If you took porn away from straight males and made sex with women illegal, do you think rapes would go up or down?

Also something something free speech (at least in America)

 

[Amir0x]

Yeah, are pedophiles more likely to rape than anyone else? I haven't found an outlet for my adult female fetish, but I'm not going out raping. Maybe there are pedophiles everywhere but only a few of them rape and no one wants to talk about their children fetish because it's so taboo and everyone will assume they're going to rape their kids.

I don't know, and I am sure there are plenty of pedos who never act on their sick urges. But, I just can't condone such actions even if it's them imagining little girls in the form of csartoons. Now whether they should make laws to stop it, that's where I can't make up my mind. I am all for shunning these freaks, if evolution doesn't kill them off on its own, but I just don't know if we should make the step to commit these people for offenses that hurt no one in that traditional sense. I wish there was a study to find out the type of percentage that acts on it, and whether they had access to child porn (cartoon/non cartoon), and how much that affected (or didn't affect it) their urges.

I've always thought that pedophilia being the most taboo thing in the country was actually detrimental to the ultimate goal of reducing the number of children harmed by it. I think if pedophiles were actually able to be even slightly open about their thoughts and desires without fear of having their lives destroyed they might be able to have better success in suppressing them. Of course the predatory ones who don't care won't change but those who realize it's wrong and never want to act on it won't have to keep everything to themselves and risk so much pent up frustration that they snap and end up hurting a child.

I doubt it. I mean, if society opens up to these freaks, someone somewhere is bound to get the wrong idea. Think about the implications immediately. The second someone mentioned they had feelings for children, who could ever have these people around kids for Christmas or Thanksgiving? Ever watch kids? Who could ever genuinely look these people in the eyes and thank of them the same way again?

I think this is such a reflexive thing for people that there's no way the shunning should stop. It offends people on some inherent level, and for good reason. All pedo victims are rape victims; there is no non-rapist pedophile.

On the other hand, I'd definitely agree there should be secretive therapy locations that allowed you to discuss your urges under the strictest possible secrecy. With people who are trained to deal with this sort of thing and maybe flag 'em if they're talking in such a way that suggests they might commit a crime. It's also probably safer this way, I'm sure the family of some pedophiles might become violent.

 

[Bay Maximus]

However, because the cartoons represent imaginary figures there is no way they could be mistaken for real children.

I wonder how countries are going to rule when 3D animation in porn passes the uncanny valley.

 

[Septimius]

I'm not into that sort of thing myself but from a purely logistical point of view it makes more sense to put resources towards dealing with images that represent actual real harm to actual real children rather than attacking stuff like this because it's a soft target that can be used to make prosecution statistics look good.

The word you're looking for is logical.

EDIT: or.. I don't know.

 

[Orayn]

Good ruling. That stuff may be creepy, but it's beyond victimless.

 

[SnakeswithLasers]

Did banning marijuana help put an end to heroin?

 

[tiff]

guess my travel plans to Sweden aren't dead after all

 

[PdotMichael]

I wonder how countries are going to rule when 3D animation in porn passes the uncanny valley.

I'm sure theywould be illegal like simulated rape or predo porn in many countries.

 

[Hitokage]

I wish there were studies on this. But as far as I'm concerned, I think society benefits from literally isolating the problem and trying to eradicate it as much as possible. Sometimes animals inherently weed out such corruptions in the genetic pool (though not for something like this, obviously). There is some benefit in the shunning and cutting off at the seams of this type.

Eugenics: The Pedo Solution.

 

[Shotgun Kiss]

I don't think there's anything morally wrong with people who get their rocks off to fantasizing about children (or animals, inanimate objects, whatever) in any form, real or fictional, so long as they keep it to themselves. They aren't hurting anybody (directly or indirectly), they didn't choose to have their particular sexual attractions any more that homosexuals do. Casting such a wide net and saying that they'll inevitably abuse a child or look at pornography of real children is as accurate as saying that a typical heterosexual will act upon their urges and rape a member of the opposite sex.

Just because somebody is born with a sexual attraction to something doesn't mean they were born with no moral code, or self-restraint.

Of course it's true that a pedophile is more likely to abuse a child than somebody who isn't sexually attracted to children (that's stating the obvious), but if society didn't immediately brand people who have these sexual attractions as monsters, despite the fact that they haven't yet hurt anybody, then maybe they'd be more comfortable about seeking help if they felt their urges becoming uncontrollable. There would be fewer cases of children being sexually abused if pedophiles had a means of coming forward and seeking support/therapy without instantly being branded as evil.

 

[Lord Ghirahim]

They should mandate publishers to put mental health warnings on every single page. Not that it worked perfectly for tobacco :/

 

[Deified Data]

Agreed. I don't get the whole manga and anime appeal but regardless.. weird.

Manga and anime = lolicon. Never change, GAF.

 

[tiff]

They should mandate publishers to put mental health warnings on every single page. Not that it worked perfectly for tobacco :/

uh, for what?

 

[Volimar]

I'm not sure how to feel about this. On the one hand, yay victory against censorship! On the other.....ewwww.

I guess there is something to be said about letting pedos enjoy fictional stuff rather than real kids, so long as they don't progress...

Damn I wish there were effective treatment for those people...

 

[Riposte]

Guys, I think it is a pretty safe to assume people don't think you are a pedophile-lite. You can say you think cartoon pictures of any nature shouldn't be banned without having to preface it with something like "Well, I don't look at that stuff, but..." When everyone is doing it, it just makes things look suspicious.


In any case is there a link between dudes liking lolicon and CP? I always assumed there was a "2D-only" crowd.

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

Lolicons are gross and discomforting, but it shouldn't be illegal. Good on Sweden.

 

[Volimar]

Guys, I think it is a pretty safe to assume people don't think you are a pedophile-lite. You can say you think cartoon pictures of any nature shouldn't be banned without having to preface it with something like "Well, I don't look at that stuff, but..." When everyone is doing it, it just makes things look suspicious.

You goddamn pervert.

 

[undu]

All pedo victims are rape victims; there is no non-rapist pedophile.

On statement doesn't imply the other. Furthermore, are you saying a person sexually attracted to children is not a paedophile until it rapes a child or that all people attracting by children are rapists? Second one is just nonsense, it's the same as saying all heterosexual males are rapists because some are rapists.

 

[tiff]

In any case is there a link between dudes liking lolicon and CP? I always assumed there was a "2D-only" crowd.

I don't know if there's been any studies on the issue. In my experience you can definitely be one or the other. It wouldn't surprise me if there was more of a link than in the general population though, given the obvious crossovers.

 

[SnakeswithLasers]

Guys, I think it is a pretty safe to assume people don't think you are a pedophile-lite. You can say you think cartoon pictures of any nature shouldn't be banned without having to preface it with something like "Well, I don't look at that stuff, but..." When everyone is doing it, it just makes things look suspicious.


In any case is there a link between dudes liking lolicon and CP? I always assumed there was a "2D-only" crowd.

This is neogaf, and if you question the efficacy of laws meant to protect children/society from pedophiles, that makes you a pedophile. Unless you qualify that you aren't one first, of course.

All pedo victims are rape victims; there is no non-rapist pedophile.

Someone is bad at syllogisms.

 

[Volimar]

Also, can't wait till those stuffed shirts get exposed to some shotacon...

"Er, and what is 'Boku no Pico' about?"

Spoiler

damn you 4chan

 

[Acerac]

Lolicons are gross and discomforting, but it shouldn't be illegal. Good on Sweden.

Precisely. It's a damned shame that pedophiles exist at all, but allowing them this release will hopefully reduce the demand for pictures of real children.

Fight the battles that matter and allow what keeps potential victims safe from harm.

 

[Josh7289]

Good news for freedom of expression.

 

[Lord Ghirahim]

uh, for what?

If somebody gets the urge to view that material and gives in to it, it's only getting reinforced.

 

[Broder Salsa]

So gross. If you look at cartoon children in sexual poses you're fucking weird no matter what.

But it's silly when people are charged with possession of child porn like for example, Simpsons characters fucking.

 

[BocoDragon]

It's illegal to kill.

It's illegal to make a snuff film, because you kill someone.

It's not illegal to depict a murder in fiction.

I suppose this stuff should be treated the same way.

 

[CornBurrito]

I've always thought that pedophilia being the most taboo thing in the country was actually detrimental to the ultimate goal of reducing the number of children harmed by it. I think if pedophiles were actually able to be even slightly open about their thoughts and desires without fear of having their lives destroyed they might be able to have better success in suppressing them. Of course the predatory ones who don't care won't change but those who realize it's wrong and never want to act on it won't have to keep everything to themselves and risk so much pent up frustration that they snap and end up hurting a child.

I agree with this. Pedophiles cannot even seek help for controlling their urges, or get psychological counseling without utterly destroying their wellbeing.