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Sweden to Introduce 'Careless Rape' Law

PJV3

Member
Jan 26, 2009
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If the independent is correct then it doesn't seem too different to now, you shouldn't be taking that much for granted unless you have been in a long term relationship and you can read the signs.
 

RefigeKru

Banned
Jan 6, 2009
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See? He just resorts to insult while speaking nonsense...

1)What the fuck else is rape besides having sex with someone who makes it clear they don't want to have sex? 2) So if I bang my girl out without asking her it's rape because she never specifically said she wants me? Body language means nothing? Wtf...

1) Depends on the country you live in. Clearly

http://rpe.co.nz/information/types-of-sexual-violence/spousepartner-rape/

Some choice quotes in here.

Sometimes people have difficulty understanding how unwanted sex with someone you have previously been or are currently sexually intimate with could be considered ‘rape’. New Zealand passed legislation in 1986 that protects any person in a marital or de facto relationship from having sex when they do not want to. These laws mean that any type of non-consensual sex, regardless of your relationship with the offender, can be reported to the Police as rape. Some people who have been pressured or forced into sex with a current or ex-partner feel uncomfortable labelling their experience as ’rape’ and their partner as a ’rapist’. Regardless of what you choose to call the experience, and whether or not you report it to the Police, support is always available.

What is partner rape?

Partner rape happens when your spouse or de facto partner (someone who you live with in a committed, intimate relationship) has sex with you without your consent. This includes if you feel pressured, threatened or coerced into participating in any type of sex when you don’t want to, or if you are physically forced into, or during, sex. Partner rape can happen to men and women of any age, ethnicity or sexual identity. It is generally part of an ongoing abusive relationship, but may also happen as an isolated incident within a relationship that is otherwise respectful and equal. It can happen between a man and a woman or partners of the same sex.

2) Well...

“It’s not rape if it’s a partner/spouse who forces you to have sex.”
Any sex without consent is rape. Whether married or in a relationship with a person, no one has ownership of your body and your decisions about it but you.

“Spouses/partners can’t be ‘real’ rapists.”
Most people who rape are in a married, de facto or otherwise stable relationship.

“It’s not rape if the survivor is confused about their experience, or doesn’t call it rape.”
There are many reasons why someone who is raped by their partner might not want to label it as such. There may be pain and confusion around identifying that someone they genuinely love has hurt them in such a way. No matter what the survivor calls it, sex without consent is never ok.

“It’s not rape if the survivor remains with their partner – surely if it was that bad, they’d leave.”
There are many reasons why someone may choose to not leave an abusive partner, and none of them mean that the rape wasn’t serious or traumatic.

“Rape by a partner isn’t ‘real’ rape unless it’s extremely violent.”
In general, rape that happens in any context doesn’t involve a great deal of physical violence. When rape happens within an intimate relationship, the offender often knows other ways (like threats or coercion) to scare and subdue their partner.

Don't think so? Try and rephrase this

So if I bang my girl out without asking her it's rape because she never specifically said she wants me?

Because if you think about it this covers a wide range of scenarios, and the exact mentality they are attempting to cull. If the law in Sweden before required evidence of threats or violence, this is definitely a step forward.

Have you guys ever had to console a female friend/relative who has had uncomfortable or unwanted sex before? The lines can be blurry but there are certainly times when consent is a requirement.

In addition to the sexual consent law, the government is also planning other legislation which will improved victim support service, fight sexual exploitation and human trafficking, make buying sex abroad illegal and increase prison sentences for offenders.

There is also a 10-year plan in place to fight men’s violence against women and a plan to introduce electronic tagging of convicted domestic abusers.

Go Sweden?
 

PtM

Banned
Jan 7, 2015
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As usual, leftists believe legislation is the answer to everything. This bill is going to be abused. It's like the purpose of the feminist movement is create a divide between man and woman.

The left is now legislating relationships. How we interact with each other. No more organic human interaction.
Yeah, whatever happened to hitting her with a club and dragging her to your cave?
 

Dunki

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Yeah, whatever happened to hitting her with a club and dragging her to your cave?

who ever said this? But do you really believe you can solve such a problem with this instead of education? If all it makes people more afraid of having sex esp. men. Being afraid will not solve the issue at all since the people who do not care will still rape.
 

PtM

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Jan 7, 2015
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who ever said this? But do you really believe you can solve such a problem with this instead of education? If all it makes people more afraid of having sex esp. men. Being afraid will not solve the issue at all since the people who do not care will still rape.
This law doesn't do jack.
 

Bl@de

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Aug 4, 2014
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Hmm...

 

Ubername

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Jun 19, 2017
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They won't because "She just regretted having sex" is a lie used by rapists and rape apologists.

People will go to great lengths to see their estranged partners suffer. It is completely believable that a person who hates their ex would accuse them of rape if the breakup was particularly ugly.
 

Kimawolf

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Sep 15, 2012
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People will go to great lengths to see their estranged partners suffer. It is completely believable that a person who hates their ex would accuse them of rape if the breakup was particularly ugly.

What you are saying is SUPER rare. 9 times out of 10 an accuser is not just trying to be vindictive. Generally they do truly believe they were raped or abused. There is a balance to be walked, but we for too long forced victims to hide or not get any justice.

And again, there are times when power dynamics make it to where one person may see something as consensual and another does not, so its always a good idea to be SURE AS SHIT the person you're trying to sex up wants to be sexed up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQbei5JGiT8
 

Kimawolf

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So 10% of false rape accusations are vindictive.
Well i was being generous, the FBI stats are actually more like 98%. are true and only 2% are false (when discounting several factors) So the VAST MAJORITY are indeed real. I am just pointing out that most people arent going to be vindictive and try to "take down a man".

https://www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/Publications_NSVRC_Overview_False-Reporting.pdf

Research shows that rates of false reporting
are frequently inflated, in part because of
inconsistent definitions and protocols, or a weak
understanding of sexual assault. Misconceptions
about false reporting rates have direct, negative
consequences and can contribute to why many
victims don’t report sexual assaults (Lisak et
al., 2010). To improve the response to victims
of sexual violence, law enforcement and service
providers need a thorough understanding
of sexual violence and consistency in their
definitions, policies and procedures.

I won't derail the thread anymore. I just thought it needed to be put out there so we don't go down that path.
 

PataHikari

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Aug 16, 2007
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Are you saying that all rape claims are true?

Rape charges are true often enough that false ones are statistically meaningless. 98% is the number I recall seeing? So the vast, vast majority of the time it's going to be true.

And then take into account how women who accuse men of raping them are treated. They're called sluts, liars, their sexual history is used against them, and all the while the man is coddled and supported. People worry more about false rape charges then they worry about rape.
 

Zog

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and all the while the man is coddled and supported

You can't be serious. Men are assumed guilty and even if they are proven not guilty the stigma never goes away. A false rape accusation ruins a mans life.
 

Ubername

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Rape charges are true often enough that false ones are statistically meaningless. 98% is the number I recall seeing? So the vast, vast majority of the time it's going to be true.

And then take into account how women who accuse men of raping them are treated. They're called sluts, liars, their sexual history is used against them, and all the while the man is coddled and supported. People worry more about false rape charges then they worry about rape.

That's because it's a character assassination, lol. This shit is definitely used against people who didn't do it. I sincerely doubt 100% of the #MeToo accounts given were true or even 90% or even 80%. And where is that statistic(98% rapes accusations are true) coming from? That's just the ones that we 'supposedly' verified were rapes and what weren't. You're never gonna see a statistic that says "Yeah guys, we actually don't arrest the right guy 98% of the time. Turns out we put away innocent people all the time!" So I doubt that number really. And the fact of the matter is that you can ruin a man's reputation and life as Zog put it, without any proof really, just an accusation.
 

PataHikari

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You can't be serious. Men are assumed guilty and even if they are proven not guilty the stigma never goes away. A false rape accusation ruins a mans life.

This is the exact opposite of reality. Women are by and large not believed when they make rape accusations. The police do not treat them seriously. There are thousands of rape kits just sitting around without being looked out. People have literally mourned the "promising future" of convicted rapists.

Rape victims have not been believed, and people look for every avenue to discount their claims.

Cops have literally discounted rape claims because the woman's underwear was "too tight"
 

Kotzen Ducha

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Oct 24, 2017
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Sounds silly, but the only way to be safe after the law comes into effect, is to draw up a contract, signed by witnesses, before the act.

Yes, seriously.

There was an app for this. Good 2 Go.
Brilliant mood-killing idea that could have protected a lot of people.

It doesn't solve the issue of ongoing consent.
Take the TJ Miller metooing where he used his power as a consensual sexual parter to push boundaries in bed without proper ongoing consent.
 

Airola

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Jun 25, 2015
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Cops have literally discounted rape claims because the woman's underwear was "too tight"

This thread just had a "people will go to great lengths to see their estranged partners suffer. It is completely believable that a person who hates their ex would accuse them of rape if the breakup was particularly ugly" claim countered with "what you are saying is SUPER rare."

I think what you said can be countered with that just as easily, if not even more easily.
 

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
May 4, 2005
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www.gaming-universe.de
The law is quite open to interpretation, because "otherwise signaling consent" can mean anything, so in that sense, ti does not seem to change much. However, I find it strange that the German source (which, contrary to what you said, is a conservative source) says men have to learn it is not OK to persuade a woman to have sex. Why would that not be OK?
 

Dunki

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The law is quite open to interpretation, because "otherwise signaling consent" can mean anything, so in that sense, ti does not seem to change much. However, I find it strange that the German source (which, contrary to what you said, is a conservative source) says men have to learn it is not OK to persuade a woman to have sex. Why would that not be OK?

Because it puts them under general suspicion in my opinion. The phrase to teach man not to rape is stigmatizing men in a very vile way so women should fear men.

People who rape especially in Europe are not the ones who do not know any better. They know exactly what they are doing. But many also do not care about these laws and do it anyway.

Lastly I would never call the Welt or NTV conservative. Focus yeah maybe, Bento hell no. So its a mix of everything.
 

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
May 4, 2005
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www.gaming-universe.de

Dunki

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Wikipedia disagrees: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Welt

I also think this is not really controversal, considering Welt is very close to Bild.

Do you really want to argue about this instead the topic? I Again I have sites linked later on which all had this story even Bento. And just look what Bento is...

Personally I do think that Bild is as far away from Welt as N24 is from RTL2 but thats just me.
 

llien

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Feb 1, 2017
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I didn't have time to check the original articles, how is "rape" actually defined?
If I have sex with my wife, no consents given either way, is it me raping her? ("penetration")
Would it be me being raped if we have strapon sex?

Apparently, if laws are gender/genitalia neutral, in "both are drunk" or "no explicit concent was given" scenarios sex partners would be both victims and perpetrators.


Rape charges are true often enough that false ones are statistically meaningless. 98% is the number I recall seeing? So the vast, vast majority of the time it's going to be true.

FBI in 1997 estimated provably wrong rape accusations at 8%.
I would not call it "super rare".
Note that these are not all false accusations, though, as a number of them falls under "not sure" category.

I find it pecular that people look at these stats through the prism of "why would abused people lie ".
Chances of false accusations are related to how easy it is to set one up, not to actual number of victims.
 

Dunki

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I didn't have time to check the original articles, how is "rape" actually defined?
If I have sex with my wife, no consents given either way, is it me raping her? ("penetration")
Would it be me being raped if we have strapon sex?

Apparently, if laws are gender/genitalia neutral, in "both are drunk" or "no explicit concent was given" scenarios sex partners would be both victims and perpetrators.




FBI in 1997 estimated provably wrong rape accusations at 8%.
I would not call it "super rare".
Note that these are not all false accusations, though, as a number of them falls under "not sure" category.

I find it pecular that people look at these stats through the prism of "why would abused people lie ".
Chances of false accusations are related to how easy it is to set one up, not to actual number of victims.

Since you know German I think here is one more interview with Anne-Christine Ramberg who was in member of some judge organisation. (Sorry dont know the english name for it) and who is against this whole new law

https://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article171793773/Schwedisches-Gesetz-Freiwilligkeit-in-jeder-Phase-des-Geschlechtsverkehrs.html

There is also an argumentation that the roles are now basically reversed and that the accused have to prove that she//he said yes. So a part "Guilty until proven innocent" concept

And yes basically you have to aks everytime to have sex with your partner. Otherwise it could be ruled as rape. So no spontanity anymore if you go strict after the law.
 

Zog

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And yes basically you have to aks everytime to have sex with your partner. Otherwise it could be ruled as rape. So no spontanity anymore if you go strict after the law.

Interesting. Two people who have sex without either asking for permission would both be guilty of rape. I wonder how that would play out in the courts?
 

blu

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Interesting. Two people who have sex without either asking for permission would both be guilty of rape. I wonder how that would play out in the courts?
Somehow that question you raised reminded me of this classic.
 

PataHikari

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Aug 16, 2007
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Which part do you not believe? That a false accusation ruins a mans life or that men are assumed guilty?

Both are false.
The law is quite open to interpretation, because "otherwise signaling consent" can mean anything, so in that sense, ti does not seem to change much. However, I find it strange that the German source (which, contrary to what you said, is a conservative source) says men have to learn it is not OK to persuade a woman to have sex. Why would that not be OK?

Because pressuring women to have sex is rape.
 

Dunki

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Both are false.

Because pressuring women to have sex is rape.

I call bullshit on this. Even if you were not guilty the newmedia if it were in the news would never write a correction article they would just update the normal article with a small note.

Also the moment you are accused no matter if you were it or not you are done for because in our society you will not think ONE moment the person is not guilty. You have seen it a ton on gaf or the new site. Theere is a vicious mob that would love to destroy a persons live without even knowing its true or not.

Here is one of these stories.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/police-officer-verge-suicide-after-11340685

here another

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-surrey-11676804

The only thing you can really do is leave your old life behind move far away and start completly new.

And yes pressure people do have sex with them is rape. But you still could argue if you try to convince her/him or pressure her/him with stuff like I am leaving you if you don't. Also for many people sex plays a huge part in a relationship and if you do not want to it can be a reason to leave this person.
 

PataHikari

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Aug 16, 2007
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Indeed, why wouldn't it be. I only ask because you said 'pressuring women is rape' instead of saying something like 'pressuring anyone is rape'.

That's because it's not women who need to be told not to pressure men into sex.
 

Dunki

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That's because it's not women who need to be told not to pressure men into sex.

As someone who was sexually molested by my female cousin I find this pretty insulting.

Also stop generalizing people based on their gender, race, religion etc.

Maybe someone should have taught you manners and common sense
 

PataHikari

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Aug 16, 2007
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As someone who was sexually molested by my female cousin I find this pretty insulting.

Society didn't tell your cousin that she deserved sex from you.

Also stop generalizing people based on their gender, race, religion etc.

Oh look somebody trying to use the old "If you aknowledge systemic problems in society this means you're The Real Bigot" trick.

What am I doing then?

Hahahahha are you trying to sealion me calling you out on your sealioning. Amazing.
 

Dunki

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Society didn't tell your cousin that she deserved sex from you.



Oh look somebody trying to use "If you aknowledge systemic problems in society this means you're The Real Bigot"

Society does nowhere tell men that it is ok to to rape or assault women nor that it is ok to demand sex. The first thing many boys get told is to be nice to girls no matter what.

I am sorry but maybe you have the wrong country because there are some countries in which they get told you something like that. But not in Western ones. And no that is not generalizing this is a known fact like every women need to have a male guardian in Saudi Arabia or how they teach you on TV how to punish your wife the "right" way. And that girls need to listen to their brother etc.

And I do not use anything I am just saying you are pretty rude and I would even argue that you do not even want to discuss anything at all.

But yes calling me Bigot will totally help your argumentation.
 

PataHikari

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Ok well maybe you can answer my question now? You believe that women don't pressure men into sex?

No I'm not going to answer your questions because your questions are being asked in bad faith and not actually attempting to improve discussion but instead derail it.
Society does nowhere tell men that it is ok to to rape or assault women nor that it is ok to demand sex. The first thing many boys get told is to be nice to girls no matter what.

You've heard of the concept of the "Friendzone", correct?

The idea that a man gets pushed away from sexual availability because she just considers him a "friend"

This is considered a negative thing. That somehow a man being nice and friendly to the woman means that he won't get the sex he's owed for being nice to her.

This is one of the many, many examples of how society tells men women owe them sex, thus encouraging men to pressure women into giving it, thus leading to rape.
 

Dunki

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No I'm not going to answer your questions because your questions are being asked in bad faith and not actually attempting to improve discussion but instead derail it.


You've heard of the concept of the "Friendzone", correct?

The idea that a man gets pushed away from sexual availability because she just considers him a "friend"

This is considered a negative thing. That somehow a man being nice and friendly to the woman means that he won't get the sex he's owed for being nice to her.

This is one of the many, many examples of how society tells men women owe them sex, thus encouraging men to pressure women into giving it, thus leading to rape.

No it is not....

It is there to tell men who are often also pretty unsure to make clear that you have feelings for a certain person instead of trying to become her friend first because this will most of the time only end in tears and emotional pain for everyone involved. Its not to pressure women in any way it is to be honest with your feelings nothing else.

I think you have no idea how difficult it is for a boy/man in these kind of situations. I was also in such a situation. where I had feelings for a person but never told her at the right time because I did not know when to tell her until it was too late.., And everytime she had a crush or boyfriend it was absolutely an emotional nightmare since you also want the best for the person you secretly love but on the other hand you feel jealous and asking yourself why him and not me etc....
 

Zog

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No I'm not going to answer your questions because your questions are being asked in bad faith and not actually attempting to improve discussion but instead derail it.

I am trying to understand your point of view by asking questions. So I guess I will take no answer as your confirmation that you do not believe that women pressure men into sex. It's happened to me many times and many others no doubt.

Do you believe men can be raped and if so, what circumstance would that be?
 

PataHikari

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Aug 16, 2007
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It is there to tell men who are often also pretty unsure to make clear that you have feelings for a certain person instead of trying to become her friend first because this will most of the time only end in tears and emotional pain for everyone involved.

If it wasn't about how women owed men sex for giving them the gift of their companionship then it would not be treated as some horrific thing for a girl to want to be "Just friends" with a guy.

I am trying to understand your point of view by asking questions. So I guess I will take no answer as your confirmation that you do not believe that women pressure men into sex. It's happened to me many times and many others no doubt.

Do you believe men can be raped and if so, what circumstance would that be?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3A0l93Bzgbw