Switzerland ain't Sweden: Muslim couple are denied Swiss citizenship because they refuse to shake hands with members of the opposite sex

Ka-Kui

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You literally just did. If you can't see how your words are insulting to an homosexual person, you are a lost cause.
Feeling insulted that I don't agree that homosexuality is ok? How can I have this opinion without insulting you? I'm not throwing slurs at you to piss you off.

"We view homosexuality in the same way we view someone who is born a paraplegic, someone that needs help. "

Hmmm.
And we don't believe paraplegics should be killed, molested or touched.

You are, I'm telling you your beliefs are incompatible with the west, or any decent human society.
I thought free thinking and freedom of belief were western values?
 
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luigimario

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Islam isn't a religion though, it's a political ideology that in its mind supersedes all other rules and laws and governs all aspects of a muslim's life. The Quran specifically calls for violence unto unbelievers which like Ulysses 31 said includes raping the conquered unbeliever women and keeping them as sex slaves. Keep trying to say there's no problems with muslim men raping white girls though, even though yet another gang was uncovered in Huddersfield the other day. Keep defending the good brown people against the bad white people though, those internet brownie points are so much more important than the thousands upon thousands of young white girls targeted by muslim rape gangs. Keep saying there's no problems with islam when so many imams in western country mosques are found to be teaching intolerance and hate on a daily basis, not to mention in madrassas to impressionable kids. There's no problems with the way islam treats gays too right? The muslims that target gays and kill them are just homophobes and it has nothing to do with islam right?
This is probably the third or fourth time of asking:

Just provide ONE example of either:-

a) The rapists justifying their crime using religion.

This shouldn't be difficult. I mean, they seem to be quite proud of their acts, and they are quite open in their racism and bigotry against white women. So they have justified it with their racism and sexism. Surely you must have one statement in which they say "We committed these rapes because our religion commands it" or something to that effect. Just one statement. Really, if what you say is true, and that they committed these acts because they were strict muslims who follow the law of their religion fully, than this should be so easy. There should be hundreds of these statements.

OR

b) One fatwah or religious legal ruling from a traditional islamic scholar that says "Raping non muslim women is completely permissable in Islam".

This should be easy, if what you say is true. But since this is the fourth time asking, I think that such statements and rulings don't exist and that the almost one billion muslim men aren't all ready to rape white women for their religion.
 

Ulysses 31

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Leviticus 20:13
"'If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

The bible isn't a big fan of homosexual acts either.
As an atheist, I find hurting/killing people for religious reasons backward. :p
 

luigimario

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Feeling insulted that I don't agree that homosexuality is ok? How can I have this opinion without insulting you? I'm not throwing slurs at you to piss you off.


And we don't believe paraplegics should be killed, molested or touched.


I thought free thinking and freedom of belief were western values?
Ok just answer this questions:

How should a homosexual person be treated?

Can you be muslim and homosexual at the same time?

Is homosexuality a crime/sin?

And last question, what is your idea of God/ a Creator? Is it the "super human" view that you see with most abrahmic faiths, ie, a very powerfulhuman, but who also has human emotions, ie, jealousy, anger, wrath etc?
 

Ka-Kui

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Ok just answer this questions:
Alright.

How should a homosexual person be treated?

A: With respect like any other human. Except we don't see homosexuality as something to be accepted as normal, but as I said above something that someone needs help with.

Can you be muslim and homosexual at the same time?

A: Yes

Is homosexuality a crime/sin?

A: Homosexual feelings? Not a sin or a crime. Homosexual acts? Both.

And last question, what is your idea of God/ a Creator? Is it the "super human" view that you see with most abrahmic faiths, ie, a very powerfulhuman, but who also has human emotions, ie, jealousy, anger, wrath etc?

A: We see God as being above humanity. Not a superhuman, but rather an entity beyond our ability to fully comprehend. Although through some human qualities we are able to grasp some idea.
 

bitbydeath

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Why do they refuse to shake hands with opposite sex?

What the hell is wrong with these people?
I’d imagine they’re afraid for what could happen to them if they did.

It’s the only thing that makes sense. Just like how they’re forced to wear certain clothing.
 

bitbydeath

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Alright.

How should a homosexual person be treated?

A: With respect like any other human. Except we don't see homosexuality as something to be accepted as normal, but as I said above something that someone needs help with.

Can you be muslim and homosexual at the same time?

A: Yes

Is homosexuality a crime/sin?

A: Homosexual feelings? Not a sin or a crime. Homosexual acts? Both.

And last question, what is your idea of God/ a Creator? Is it the "super human" view that you see with most abrahmic faiths, ie, a very powerfulhuman, but who also has human emotions, ie, jealousy, anger, wrath etc?

A: We see God as being above humanity. Not a superhuman, but rather an entity beyond our ability to fully comprehend. Although through some human qualities we are able to grasp some idea.
The problem is your conforming to a book which may as well have been written by a random internet poster. (Let’s face it, it was a random guy who wrote it many years ago, no better than you or I)

Meanwhile the actual gods (presuming they’re real) they wrote about actually allowed it or it wouldn’t be possible for people to be gay.
 

Marshmallow

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Feeling insulted that I don't agree that homosexuality is ok? How can I have this opinion without insulting you? I'm not throwing slurs at you to piss you off.
You don't need to throw insults at one person to piss someone off. You can have any opinion you want, deal with the consequences.

And we don't believe paraplegics should be killed, molested or touched.
What do you believe should be done to thee people then? Should they have the right to marry? Live their life in the open?

I thought free thinking and freedom of belief were western values?
Of course. You are free to think what you want. Just doesn't expect to be treated well and don't cry when you get kicked out of the western world. Some people also think Slavery should be a thing, doesn't mean we want them in Europe. Women and LGBT fought with their lives to obtain rights here.


A: With respect like any other human. Except we don't see homosexuality as something to be accepted as normal, but as I said above something that someone needs help with.
You are not treating us with respect. And what kind of help? You didn't answer his question. What would you do with a person that plans to live his life as an homosexual in the open?

A: Homosexual feelings? Not a sin or a crime. Homosexual acts? Both.
The fact you can't grasp the value dissonance in your words is severally troubling. I feel like I'm talking to a sociopath.
 
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Ulysses 31

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Can you be muslim and homosexual at the same time?

A: Yes
Come on, you know that mostly apply to western countries and not most(all?) Muslim majority countries with Sharia, there are hadiths describing the punishment for homosexuality ranging from stoning to being thrown off the tallest building with head facing downwards.

And I doubt an openly gay Muslim could take the pilgrimage to Mecca.
 
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Ka-Kui

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The problem is your conforming to a book which may as well have been written by a random internet poster. (Let’s face it, it was a random guy who wrote it many years ago, no better than you or I)

Meanwhile the actual gods (presuming they’re real) they wrote about actually allowed it or it wouldn’t be possible for people to be gay.
Well let's take religion out of the equation. I still don't think homosexuality is something that's normal, because it isn't. It's common sense to me that it's something that should be treated as an illness and not encouraged.
You don't need to throw insults at one person to piss someone off. You can have any opinion you want, deal with the consequences.


What do you believe should be done to thee people then? Should they have the right to marry? Live their life in the open?


Of course. You are free to think what you want. Just doesn't expect to be treated well and don't cry when you get kicked out of the western world. Some people also think Slavery should be a thing, doesn't mean we want them in Europe. Women and LGBT fought with their lives to obtain rights here.



You are not treating us with respect. And what kind of help? You didn't answer his question. What would you do with a person that plans to live his life as an homosexual in the open?


The fact you can't grasp the value dissonance in your words is severally troubling. I feel like I'm talking to a sociopath.
What do you mean what would I do? Shariah doesn't exhort people to break the laws of the land or undertake vigilante justice. I don't live in a Muslim country, I respect the law where I live regardless.

How much clearer do I have to make myself? How much more explicit do you want me to get? We distinguish between homosexual feelings and acts. If you don't get that that's your problem now.

If you expect me to conform to a hive mentality then sorry, you'll also have to prepare to feel insulted. I can't do anything about that no matter how cordial I try to be.
Come on, you know that mostly apply to western countries and not most(all?) Muslim majority countries with Sharia, there are hadiths describing the punishment for homosexuality ranging from stoning to being thrown off the tallest building with head facing downwards.

And I doubt an openly gay Muslim could take the pilgrimage to Mecca.
You're right most Muslim countries suck.
 

danielberg

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This is probably the third or fourth time of asking:

Just provide ONE example of either:-

a) The rapists justifying their crime using religion.
.
The mass child rape by Pakistani Muslims in the UK was justified by several of them with "white infidel girls are worth nothing" but hey i am sure you find a excuse for this too.
 
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bitbydeath

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Well let's take religion out of the equation. I still don't think homosexuality is something that's normal, because it isn't. It's common sense to me that it's something that should be treated as an illness and not encouraged.
Maybe. But it’s not our place to judge others. If that is what makes others happy and it doesn’t physically impact your own life then it’s not of your or I’s concern.
 

luigimario

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Alright.

How should a homosexual person be treated?

A: With respect like any other human. Except we don't see homosexuality as something to be accepted as normal, but as I said above something that someone needs help with.

Can you be muslim and homosexual at the same time?

A: Yes

Is homosexuality a crime/sin?

A: Homosexual feelings? Not a sin or a crime. Homosexual acts? Both.

And last question, what is your idea of God/ a Creator? Is it the "super human" view that you see with most abrahmic faiths, ie, a very powerfulhuman, but who also has human emotions, ie, jealousy, anger, wrath etc?

A: We see God as being above humanity. Not a superhuman, but rather an entity beyond our ability to fully comprehend. Although through some human qualities we are able to grasp some idea.
If God is above humanity, than why would God care about what two petty humans want to do with one another if it is with consent?
 

luigimario

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The mass child rape by Pakistani Muslims in the UK was justified by several of them with "white infidel girls are worth nothing" but hey i am sure you find a excuse for this too.
Yeah like I said, they justified it with their bigotry not through their religious texts or laws. Cmon guys, you keep repeating the same thing.

We all know these guys are disgusting animals, and it is obvious to anyone who has Pakistani friends that there is a problem with toxic masculinity in that culture, but you have not been able to show any of the rapists justify their acts using religion. It is because everything they did, drinking alcohol, taking drugs, rape, etc is all strictly forbidden in Islamic law.

Just one statement from the perpetrators justifying their acts by religion (Like the terrorists do) or a traditional islamic scholar that says rape of non-muslims is allowed. It should be easy to find if what you say is true, right?
 

Marshmallow

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Well let's take religion out of the equation. I still don't think homosexuality is something that's normal, because it isn't. It's common sense to me that it's something that should be treated as an illness and not encouraged.

What do you mean what would I do? Shariah doesn't exhort people to break the laws of the land or undertake vigilante justice. I don't live in a Muslim country, I respect the law where I live regardless.

How much clearer do I have to make myself? How much more explicit do you want me to get? We distinguish between homosexual feelings and acts. If you don't get that that's your problem now.

If you expect me to conform to a hive mentality then sorry, you'll also have to prepare to feel insulted. I can't do anything about that no matter how cordial I try to be.
Why don't you answer my questions.

What do you believe should be done to these people then? Should they have the right to marry? Live their life in the open? And what kind of help? You didn't answer his question. What would you do with a person that plans to live his life as an homosexual in the open?

Well let's take religion out of the equation. I still don't think homosexuality is something that's normal, because it isn't.
Ironically you are not normal either, being a Muslim in Europe. Whoops!
 
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luigimario

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Maybe. But it’s not our place to judge others. If that is what makes others happy and it doesn’t physically impact your own life then it’s not of your or I’s concern.
You think people choose to be homosexual or that they inclined towards it naturally?

You realise medieval muslim states, like the ottoman empire, had much more nuanced views on sexuality? In Ottoman culture, it wasn't weird or alien, to find other men attractive, and even sexual relations wasn't a crime either, IF you were the "giver". If you were the "taker", that's a bit of a different story, likely to be seen as a social outcast. But the point is that the issue of sexuality had more nuance in the Ottoman empire of the 15th century than you may find now in the same area.
 

luigimario

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Why don't you answer my questions.

What do you believe should be done to these people then? Should they have the right to marry? Live their life in the open? And what kind of help? You didn't answer his question. What would you do with a person that plans to live his life as an homosexual in the open?


Ironically you are not normal either, being a Muslim in Europe. Whoops!
What if you are European who converts to Islam? Are they also considered sub-normal in your eyes?
 

luigimario

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There’s probably a mix of both.
I'm assuming you chose to be sexually attracted to the opposite sex? When did you make that choice? And does that mean you can also choose to be sexually attracted to the same sex?

That is a strange concept, I never chose to be attracted to the opposite sex, I just, always was.
 

Ka-Kui

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Maybe. But it’s not our place to judge others. If that is what makes others happy and it doesn’t physically impact your own life then it’s not of your or I’s concern.
I'm not here preaching anything. I'm just stating my opinion.

Every society draw their line on what is acceptable and what isn't, not even in the west is it allowed to have sex with your siblings or parents - yet these are not things that impact anyone's life either but everyone's free to think it's unusual/abhorrent.
If God is above humanity, than why would God care about what two petty humans want to do with one another if it is with consent?
That's one way to look at it, however then that would be a very human trait to be dismissive about people/creatures that you consider to be below you.
 
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Marshmallow

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What if you are European who converts to Islam? Are they also considered sub-normal in your eyes?
Nope, simply not the norm. Nothing wrong with not being the norm, people with red hair or left-handed are also not the norm. I was just pointing out that post is nidicolous for arguing homosexuals are mentally ills because they are "Not the norm".

it's an idiotic argument as much as appealing to nature.
 
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bitbydeath

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I'm assuming you chose to be sexually attracted to the opposite sex? When did you make that choice? And does that mean you can also choose to be sexually attracted to the same sex?

That is a strange concept, I never chose to be attracted to the opposite sex, I just, always was.
Yep, it’s all just brain chemistry so being hard-wired one way or the other makes sense.

That said people also have freedom of choice and can experiment which... I didn’t always like Coke when I was younger, few drinks later and it’s great. (y)
 

luigimario

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Yep, it’s all just brain chemistry so being hard-wired one way or the other makes sense.

That said people also have freedom of choice and can experiment which... I didn’t always like Coke when I was younger, few drinks later and it’s great. (y)
Well that's because sexuality isn't binary, it's not just Gay and straight. It's more of a spectrum. So you get people who fall in between in varying degrees.
 

bitbydeath

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I'm not here r preaching anything. I'm just stating my opinion.

Every society draw their line on what is acceptable and what isn't, not even in the west is it allowed to have sex with your siblings or parents - yet these are not things that impact anyone's life either but everyone's free to think it's unusual/abhorrent.
Not sure if it’s a lie but it’s said that having children with your own kin can create abnormalities so I imagine the rule steemed from that.
 

luigimario

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Nope, simply not the norm. Nothing wrong with not being the norm, people with red hair or left-handed are also not the norm. I was just pointing out that post is nidicolous for arguing homosexuals are mentally ills because they are "Not the norm".

it's an idiotic argument as much as appealing to nature.
Right. I think the poster has a pretty primitive view on it though. Still has some maturing to do.
 

luigimario

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I'm not here preaching anything. I'm just stating my opinion.

Every society draw their line on what is acceptable and what isn't, not even in the west is it allowed to have sex with your siblings or parents - yet these are not things that impact anyone's life either but everyone's free to think it's unusual/abhorrent.

That's one way to look at it, however then that would be a very human trait to be dismissive about people/creatures that you consider to be below you.
I think you misunderstood. Would you be angry at two ants for having gay sex? Then why do you think God would get angry if human's did it? Don't you believe that God is above such primitive emotions? This is the creator of all creation right? Incomprehensible, above all creation, yet you want me to believe that God gets angry at two random people, who he created, having gay sex because they love each other, another emotion that God created?
 

Ulysses 31

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I think you misunderstood. Would you be angry at two ants for having gay sex? Then why do you think God would get angry if human's did it? Don't you believe that God is above such primitive emotions? This is the creator of all creation right? Incomprehensible, above all creation, yet you want me to believe that God gets angry at two random people, who he created, having gay sex because they love each other, another emotion that God created?
Well if you actually read the Quran, it is directly said that Allah considers it as something wrong, so yes a devout follower would likely consider it wrong also. Also the prophet comes out against it and he's seen as the finest example of human existence.
 

luigimario

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Well if you actually read the Quran, it is directly said that Allah considers it as something wrong, so yes a devout follower would likely consider it wrong also. Also the prophet comes out against it and he's seen as the finest example of human existence.
By the "Quran", you mean "all religious books"?
 

Ka-Kui

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I think you misunderstood. Would you be angry at two ants for having gay sex? Then why do you think God would get angry if human's did it? Don't you believe that God is above such primitive emotions? This is the creator of all creation right? Incomprehensible, above all creation, yet you want me to believe that God gets angry at two random people, who he created, having gay sex because they love each other, another emotion that God created?
It's still a very human trait to think that God will think himself above all issues concerning his creation.

Going into this theological subject is a very broad topic and at this point I'm just tired.

Also att this point I'm going to bow out of this thread. It's clear some don't want to agree to disagree and that is fine by me.
 
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PonyStation4

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Sounds like he justified with his bigotry and racism, not his religion though. I asked for one statement from the rapists that says something along the lines of "i raped these girls because of my religion".
Premarital sex, alcohol, drugs and rape are all against islam, and every other religion for that matter, so im curious in how these guys framed their crimes from a religious perspective?
You're 100% correct that Islam advocates against rape, because they don't consider sexual slavery against non Muslims as rape.
 

bitbydeath

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It's still a very human trait to think that God will think himself above all issues concerning his creation.

Going into this theological subject is a very broad topic and at this point I'm just tired.

Also att this point I'm going to bow out of this thread. It's clear some don't want to agree to disagree and that is fine by me.
While I don’t agree with your views, I like that you kept a cool head about it. (y)
 

PonyStation4

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By the "Quran", you mean "all religious books"?
Islam is the only religion that's considered the word of God, not just an interpretation by humans. Islam is also the only religion that's absolute in their superiority over other ideologies.
 

luigimario

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No, just the one of the 2nd biggest religion in the world.
Ah the other religions are very tolerant of homosexuality? Sure.

Islam is the only religion that's considered the word of God, not just an interpretation by humans. Islam is also the only religion that's absolute in their superiority over other ideologies.
So christians don't believe the bible is the word of God? Or Jews the Torah/Talmud?
 

Whataburger

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Islam is also the only religion that's absolute in their superiority over other ideologies.
What no plenty of extremists act like this hell did you know some people call themselves the chosen people? What about the rest of us :(
 

DeepEnigma

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By the "Quran", you mean "all religious books"?
No, not "all religious books"... that is being ingorant in thinking there is only the 3 Abrahamic religions. But yes, all 3 Abrahamic religions are just a microcosm of each other. It seemed to have started as one big cult, 1 dude got pissy (and/or some say was even too extreme for that form of Judaism at the time) and started his own (Islam) and came back with an army to attack his OG sect... and the other made a martyr out of theirs (Christianity) through government rule with mixtures of the other two, and heavily borrowed from celebratory traditions from their competition they were trying to wipe out (Paganism) in their region (Europe).
 

Ulysses 31

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Haven't been to Christian Africa or Christian South America have you?
And you haven't been to countries with Sharia at state level, have you?

At least we got this video from one of those African countries >.>
 
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luigimario

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And you haven't been to countries with Sharia at state level, have you?
You didn't answer my question. "Sharia at state level" What does that mean? You mean countries that practise Sharia? Iran and Saudi? Yep been to both. Really hated Saudi, Iran is good to visit for its history, but again, not a big fan of its leadership. What did you think of Christian Africa and South America? Found them to be very tolerant of homosexuals did you?
 

DeepEnigma

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Haven't been to Christian Africa or Christian South America have you?
You mean Christian Africa that is actually volunterring and knowing their (the missionaries) lives are threatened any moment by murderous muslim tribes while they are trying to help the poor people in their villages?

I think one needs to read about the Northern Sudan and the book Machine Gun Preacher. Here is a hint, it is not the Christian missionaries gunning down "their own people" and taking all the (Christian and UN provided) food supplies and aide for themselves, ruling them through fear, and kidnapping children for slavery, sex trade, or ransoms.

Sure one can argue about using aide as spreading their "word of God", and Christianity has it's historical ills and ideologue extremists, however there is a stark contrast with how they are doing it, and how the muslim "rebels" are doing their version.
 
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Composer

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As someone of Islamic ancestry, I have never met a woman who refused to shake hands due to the religion, other than wet hands. This is either overblown news reports or really random ass people.
 

luigimario

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You mean Christian Africa that is actually volunterring and knowing their (the missionaries) lives are threatened any moment by murderous muslim tribes while they are trying to help the poor people in their villages?

I think one needs to read about the Northern Sudan and the book Machine Gun Preacher. Here is a hint, it is not the Christian missionaries gunning down "their own people" and taking all the (Christian and UN provided) food supplies and aide for themselves, ruling them through fear, and kidnapping children for slavery, sex trade, or ransoms.

Sure one can argue about using aide as spreading their "word of God", and Christianity has it's historical ills and ideologue extremists, however there is a stark contrast with how they are doing it, and how the muslim "rebels" are doing their version.
Gambia
Ghana
Guinea
Liberia
Niger
Nigeria
Senegal
Sierra Leone
Togo
Cameroon
Burundi
Kenya
Uganda
Eritrea
Ethiopia
Comoros
Mauritius
Angola
Botswana
Malawi
Namibia
Swaziland
Zambia
Zimbabwe

All of these African countries are majority Chrisitian (apart from Mauritius which is majority Hindu) and all of them find same sex activity illegal. Punishment is either death or imprisonment.
 

TheShadowLord

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Islam isn't a religion though, it's a political ideology that in its mind supersedes all other rules and laws and governs all aspects of a muslim's life. The Quran specifically calls for violence unto unbelievers which like Ulysses 31 said includes raping the conquered unbeliever women and keeping them as sex slaves. Keep trying to say there's no problems with muslim men raping white girls though, even though yet another gang was uncovered in Huddersfield the other day. Keep defending the good brown people against the bad white people though, those internet brownie points are so much more important than the thousands upon thousands of young white girls targeted by muslim rape gangs. Keep saying there's no problems with islam when so many imams in western country mosques are found to be teaching intolerance and hate on a daily basis, not to mention in madrassas to impressionable kids. There's no problems with the way islam treats gays too right? The muslims that target gays and kill them are just homophobes and it has nothing to do with islam right?
So if a Muslim doesn't believe in the political ideology that is Islam, but it is still religious, what is he/she?
 

DeepEnigma

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Gambia
Ghana
Guinea
Liberia
Niger
Nigeria
Senegal
Sierra Leone
Togo
Cameroon
Burundi
Kenya
Uganda
Eritrea
Ethiopia
Comoros
Mauritius
Angola
Botswana
Malawi
Namibia
Swaziland
Zambia
Zimbabwe

All of these African countries are majority Chrisitian (apart from Mauritius which is majority Hindu) and all of them find same sex activity illegal. Punishment is either death or imprisonment.
And they are wrong for it, it has always been that way long before the religion zealots there. That is old tribalism just solidifying it more with religious backing. The other extreme fighting out there with violent muslim rule is no better. If they were muslim led, it would not change one iota, and can be argued it would be even worse.
 
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