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Syrian Civil War |OT|

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hym

Banned
When he dies the title is passed to his son like these people were kings of old. Now the whole opporation runs like a crime family with a bunch of mass murder on the side.

Assad is not a better alternative to anything. Look what he's lead the country into!

And CNN told you this right?
Bashar al-Assad has been President since 2000. Syria had 10 Presidents during the 52 year existence of the Syrian Arab Republic. 2 of which were relatives, shall I remind you of US presidents now? or just skip ahead to the good part:



Who is actually leading the government in Syria? not President Bashar al-Assad, he's the head of state, the head of government is the Prime Minister: Wael Nader Al-Halq is Sunni

Yeh but that doesn't count right, evil dictatorship special game rules, if Assad falls another Alawite will take charge, except that Vice President Najah al-Attar (a woman no less) is Sunni and Vice President Farouk al-Sharaa is Sunni

Deputy Prime Minister - Fahd Jassem al-Freij - Sunni
Minister of Foreign Affairs Walid Muallem - Sunni
Interior Minister - Mohammad Ibrahim al-Shaar - Sunni
Defense Minister - Fahd Jassem al-Freij - Sunni

But obviously just like in Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, the majority of the government are all family members of the dictator clan, actually 0 relatives of Assad hold a position in the government, some do play a role in the Military but there have been conflicts in the family during Hafez's time so this is certainly not a Gulf state Corleone family system.

The actual government in Syria counts 32 ministries, 14 of which are filled by Shia, 14 by Sunni (among which 3 Kurds and 1 Palestenian), 3 by Orthodox Christians, 1 by Druze.

Care to see what a real crime family running a country looks like?



Prime Minister - King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Minister of Defense -Salman bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Second Deputy Prime Minister - Muqrin bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Minister of Interior - Muhammad bin Nayef Al Saud
Minister of Foreign Affairs - Saud bin Faisal Al Saud
Minister of Municipal and Rural Affairs - Mansour bin Mutaib bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Minister of Education - Faisal bin Abdullah bin Mohammed Al Saud
Minister of State - Abdulaziz bin Fahd bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Commander of the Saudi National Guard - Mutaib bin Abdullah bin Abdulaziz Al Saud

On 12 September 2001 in most countries around the world, flags were lowed half-mast including those of the Syrian Arab Republic, Iran and even Hezbollah to pay respect to the victims, the United Nations in New York City did the same, WITH ONE EXCEPTION, Saudi Arabia refused.

This is the result of the might of oil, the ignorance of Wahhabism, and the cruelty of a crime family, but maybe most importantly Western greed for allowing it.
 

Magni

Member
And CNN told you this right?
Bashar al-Assad has been President since 2001. Syria had 10 Presidents during the 52 year existence of the Syrian Arab Republic. 2 of which were relatives, shall I remind you of US presidents now? or just skip ahead to the good part:



Care to see what a real crime family running a country looks like?



Prime Minister - King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Minister of Defense -Salman bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Second Deputy Prime Minister - Muqrin bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Minister of Interior - Muhammad bin Nayef Al Saud
Minister of Foreign Affairs - Saud bin Faisal Al Saud
Minister of Municipal and Rural Affairs - Mansour bin Mutaib bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Minister of Education - Faisal bin Abdullah bin Mohammed Al Saud
Minister of State - Abdulaziz bin Fahd bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Commander of the Saudi National Guard - Mutaib bin Abdullah bin Abdulaziz Al Saud

On 12 September 2001 in most countries around the world, flags were lowed half-mast including those of the Syrian Arab Republic and Hezbollah to pay respect to the victims, the United Nations in New York City did the same, WITH ONE EXCEPTION, Saudi Arabia refused.

This is the result of the might of oil, the ignorance of Wahhabism, and the cruelty of a crime family, but maybe most importantly Western greed for allowing it.

The fact that the country is named after the family should tell you all you need to know about it. I believe Assad should go, but there's no arguing that Syria isn't Assadia.
 
Al Jazeera said:
Reports of 'massacre' in eastern Syria
British-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights says at least 60 Shia Muslims killed by rebels near Deir al-Zour.

Syrian rebels have attacked a village in the country's east, killing dozens of Shias, activists said.

A Syrian government official on Wednesday denounced the attack that occurred a day earlier, saying it was a “massacre'' of civilians.

The Britain-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said at least 60 people were killed in the village of Hatla in the oil-rich province of Deir al-Zour bordering Iraq.

A video supplied by the Observatory showed masked fighters shouting, “Here are the Mujahidin [Islamist fighters] celebrating entering the homes of the rejectionists, the Shias.” The authenticity of the video could not be independently verified.
Spotlight

The fighters added that they “burned the homes” of the Shia residents.

The reported killings highlight the sectarian nature of Syria's conflict that has killed more than 80,000 people, according to the UN. Both sides in the fighting have been accused of abuses, with the UN saying that war crimes are a "daily reality" in Syria.

Thousands of rebels took part in the attack and at least 10 of them were killed in the fighting, said the Observatory.

In Damascus, a government official told the AP news agency the rebels “carried out a massacre against villagers in which older people and children were killed.''

The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorised to speak to the media.

The fighting in Deir al-Zour came a week after Syrian troops, backed by Lebanon's Shia Hezbollah group, captured the strategic town of Qusayr near the Lebanese border after nearly three weeks of fierce battles that killed dozens of troops, rebels and Hezbollah members.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/06/201361294148169694.html
 

Dyno

Member
And CNN told you this right?
Bashar al-Assad has been President since 2001. Syria had 10 Presidents during the 52 year existence of the Syrian Arab Republic. 2 of which were relatives, shall I remind you of US presidents now? or just skip ahead to the good part:

History is not on your side friend. The al-Assads rise to power was well documented long before the 24 hour news cycle. It's a story of treachery, violence, and murder. What you are cheerleading is not at all legitamate rule. Pointing out regimes that are equally fucked up is no defense at all to a reasonable person.
 

filopilo

Member
Every "news" starting by or containing "British-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights "...

should go directly to the dumpster.
 

hym

Banned
The Muslim Brotherhood publicly unveils their terrorist agenda, Sayyid Qutb would be proud, finally his offspring are united.

Egypt’s presidency says it citizens free to fight in Syria as Sunni clerics call for jihad
He said that after the 2011 uprising, the government no longer punishes Egyptians for what they do in other countries. Al-Qazzaz, a foreign affairs adviser to Islamist President Mohammed Morsi, said the presidency does not consider Egyptian nationals in Syria a threat to Egypt’s security.

His comments come just days after influential Egyptian cleric Yusuf al-Qaradawi urged Sunnis everywhere to join the fight against Syrian President Bashar Assad.

Some of you may remember this monster
, from previous conflicts with sanity:
Yusuf al-Qaradawi in his book, Modern Fatwas, he adds: "I personally support this under the current circumstances in the modern world. Anyone who thinks that circumcision is the best way to protect his daughters should do it." It is performed to remove that part of the clitoris which provides sexual pleasure, usually before puberty, so that a woman will be disinterested in sex before, marriage and "faithful" afterwards. "The moderate opinion is in favour of practicing circumcision to reduce temptation."

 

liger05

Member
This is going to drag on for a long time yet. The 'rebel's are still fighting hard. The Saudi Sheikh Mohammed Arefe (5.2 mil followers on twitter) has called for Jihad in Syria. As soon as Hezbollah got involved this eventually was going to happen.

he Muslim Brotherhood publicly unveils their terrorist agenda, Sayyid Qutb would be proud, finally his offspring are united.

Egypt’s presidency says it citizens free to fight in Syria as Sunni clerics call for jihad

About time. He needs to provide weapons!! Sheikh Muhammad Hassan is more influential than Yusuf al-Qaradaw in Egypt. Hassan declaring Jihad makes the syrian Jihad mainstream in Egypt.
 

hym

Banned
This is going to drag on for a long time yet. The 'rebel's are still fighting hard. The Saudi Sheikh Mohammed Arefe (5.2 mil followers on twitter) has called for Jihad in Syria. As soon as Hezbollah got involved this eventually was going to happen.

Got your girlfriend circumcised yet? Al-Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood were involved since March 2011, I think Hezbollah has shown exceptional restraint to hold back for over 2 years.

A valid Jihad cannot be waged alongside an invalid one, forming an alliance with the Judeo-Christian imperialists nullifies any decree, ignorant fools are cannon fodder once more.
 

liger05

Member
Got your girlfriend circumcised yet? Al-Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood were involved since March 2011, I think Hezbollah has shown exceptional restraint to hold back for over 2 years.

Your personal little digs really are pathetic. All Hezbollah's intervention will do is bolster Salafism ideology. So you can thank Nasrallah for that.
 

hym

Banned
Your personal little digs really are pathetic. All Hezbollah's intervention will do is bolster Salafism ideology. So you can thank Nasrallah for that.

Let me tell you something about Salafism:


I welcome them exposing their hatred, Takfiris are a con for Sunni Supremacism, fascists.

Emir Al Thani has been defeated, Sultan Erdogan remains under assault, the Muslim Brotherhood empire is crumbling and Iran/Russia/China/Iraq aren't even involved yet.

This will end with the Al Saud kingdom burning. Thanks for playing.
 

liger05

Member
Let me tell you something about Salafism:


I welcome them exposing their hatred, Takfiris are a con for Sunni Supremacism, fascists.

Emir Al Thani has been defeated, Sultan Erdogan remains under assault, the Muslim Brotherhood empire is crumbling and Iran/Russia/China/Iraq aren't even involved yet.

This will end with the Al Saud kingdom burning. Thanks for playing.

The sooner the Al Saud kingdom is gone the better. I welcome it. So yes do please bring it on.
 
You've said it yourself then. The situation in Syria is arguably worse because of foreign intervention, but there are underlying, endemic problems in the country, and those problems cannot be solved by having a dictator hold the country together and pass government to his son (or brother, or in-law or friend). True, many in Syria and in the Middle-East in general possess a terrible fascist ideology that subverts Islam into a death cult. But the only way to defeat that ideology is have its failure be demonstrated once and for all. Look at Egypt now, how the Muslim Brotherhood are fairing. Do you think they'll get elected again? Things might not be better for Egyptians now but this is a process their society has to go through. The worst thing that happened to Arabs wasn't the West, or Israel or sectarian divides, it's paternalism from everyone and anyone. Everyone somehow assumes that they are completely unable to develop themselves, and that they need some sort of tutoring either from the West, from domestic dictators or from foreign Jihadists.

Bashar might be better for Syrians, but he is a part of the problem and not the solution.

Like Saudi Arabia? Oh wait. =S

I can't understand anyone who thinks the Al Assad family has any ruling legitimacy in the first place. Father was a military officer who betrayed the people he swore an oath to defend. He ruled over them as a tyrant and killed tens of thousands of people - and that's just what we know about.

When he dies the title is passed to his son like these people were kings of old. Now the whole opporation runs like a crime family with a bunch of mass murder on the side.

Assad is not a better alternative to anything. Look what he's lead the country into!

Assad. Someone who we can keep tabs on.

Terrorists from all over.

Hmm... which alternative should I choose?

Both suck, one sucks more.
 

hym

Banned
Michael Scheuer, fromer CIA Chief of Counter Terrorism: Syrian war is a Godsend to the addled who inhabit the White House and the Congress.

Look at what is developing on the ground in Syria:

(a) Asaad’s forces are killing Sunni mujahedin — including at least one female mujahid from Michigan — who would otherwise be targeting the West;

(b) Lebanese Hizballah and Iran are bleeding lives and money to kill Sunni Islamists who otherwise would be targeting America or another Western target;

(c) the Sunni mujahedin in Syria are killing Hizballah, Iranian, and Syrian fighters, all of whom Washington claims are threats to the United States, the West, and Israel;

(d) Shias and Sunnis are merrily murdering each other in Syria in a contest which — when added to the impetus from the steadily accelerating sectarian violence in Iraq — is increasing chances for a region wide and massively bloody Shia-Sunni war, which, as Usama bin Laden predicted and feared, would do more than anything else to neuter his anti-U.S. defensive jihad.

 
http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/kosovo-muslim-embraces-jihad-in-syrian-war

A Kosovar who has fought twice in Syria's civil war, says belief in Islamic holy war has drawn him and many other Albanians into the Middle Eastern cauldron.

By Muhamet Hajrullahu

S.T., a two-time veteran of the sectarian war raging in Syria, says it is not hard to get from Pristina in Kosovo to the heart of the fighting in the Middle East's latest war.

All you need is a plane ticket to Turkey, which does not require visas from Kosovars, the 30-year-old ex-schoolteacher says.

There, volunteers cross over the porous Turkish border and join the opposition, mainly Sunni, rebels who have been fighting the government of Bashar Al-Assad since 2011.

The former English teacher in a primary school in southeast Kosovo now sports a long Islamic beard.

Sitting in a café and drinking a macchiato, he takes no notice of the Kosovo police officers sitting nearby.

"Everyone here knows that I was fighting in Syria," says S.T. who wants to keep his identity secret from the media.

He says he borrowed money to secure a ticket to Turkey and has fought in the ranks of the Syrian revolutionaries twice.

"The first time was during the winter of 2012 when I stayed for nine weeks and then returned home for a month for family reasons," he says.

"The second time I stayed for only three weeks because I injured my arm and had no choice but to come back."

ST says he fought in the northern city of Aleppo and in Sakhur, which, according to him, is known for its brave fighters.

"It's like our Drenica," he said, referring to the area of central Kosovo that spawned many rebels in the past.

He says he carried a Kalashnikov into battle and fought in the front line. "The front line between the enemies is not more than 30-40 meters apart. I always fought in the front line," he maintained.

S.T. says his original inspiration to fight came from footage on the Internet of war crimes committed by Assad regime forces. "I started to dream about it. I knew that one day I would go," he said.

He says his reasons for joining the war were wholly religious. "I went to war because of jihad, the doctrine of holy war according to Islam, not for material reasons," he added.

S.T., Photo by Besnik Krivanjeva

According to the doctrine, when Muslims need help, other Muslims are obliged to offer them material or humanitarian aid or join them in battle, which is what S.T. did.

"The initiative came from the videos I saw on the net which got me very concerned," he recalled.

"The Koran and the Hadith of Muhammad [the sayings of the Prophet] also state that a day spent in jihad is equal to 60 years of worship and Ramadan," he added.

"There are many other tempting and promising verses [in the Koran] for those who come to help Muslims," he continued.

S.T. says the mosques of Istanbul act as meeting places for volunteer fighters heading towards the war zone.

"The mosques are where you find people who lead you to Syria, as there are many Syrian refugees there," he explained.

In Syria, he says that he communicated in a mixture of English and Arabic.

Memories of the war in Sakhur are not the only ones he retains. "I once went to a barber shop to cut my hair," he says, "and I needed a perfume so I stopped to buy one, accompanied by my commander.

"We were horrified when we saw the shopkeeper had amputated arms and legs," he added.

"Assad's Special Forces had come after the shopkeeper; they beat him and cut off his arms and legs."

S.T is far from the only Kosovar fighting in the Middle East.

Vedat Xhymshiti, a Kosovar journalist who reported from Syria for several weeks, come across many other Albanians who were fighting a jihad.

"In general, all the Albanians I met had joined the war for the same reason; jihad, holy war," he said.

Xhymshiti says he came across 100 to 150 other Albanians fighters in Syria.

Meanwhile S. T. said that the only reason that has made him speak out is the aspersions that some people cast over the motives of the fighters.

"The question of 'Do you get paid for fighting, or are you a volunteer?' has forced me to speak out on behalf of my Albanian Muslim community," he said.

"I did not take any money," he continued. "I have read a few newspaper articles about the places, addresses and mosques that organize people and these articles contain nothing but lies," he added.

"The front line is open for everyone, and if you have the intention to go nobody can stop you. There is no need for such organization."

At a press conference on 17 May, leaders of Kosovo's main Islamist party, the Islamic Unification Movement, LISBA, called on the government to help the Syrian opposition, even if only symbolically.

At the same time, LISBA denied organizing volunteers for the Syrian war.

"We do not know the exact number of Albanians from Kosovo, or other Albanian areas, fighting in Syria, as we do not organize or sponsor them," the leader of LISBA, Fuad Ramiqi, said.

"It is done on a voluntary basis. We are not taking any account of who is going there and who is not," he added.

The movement, which was established as a political party in March, has protested several times so far, demanding more rights for the Islamic community, which they say is discriminated against.

Abit Hoxha, from the Centre for Security Studies in Kosovo, said that there are no organizations in the country making arrangements for people to fight in Syria.

Although, according to Hoxha, there are two incentives for people to join the war in Syria. The first is religious faith and the second is the social status these people hope to acquire once they return home.

A former reporter of "Rilindja" newspaper from the Middle East, Nehat Islami said that some "Albanians" fighting in Syria and long-time residents of the country who moved long ago, back in 1912.

"They are Syrians of Albanian origin," Islami explained.

The conflict began on 15 March 2011, with popular protests that spread all over Syria.

According to a United Nations report published on 15 May, 80,000 people have died as a result of the armed conflict in Syria, 10,000 in February alone.
 

Magni

Member
NYTimes said:
Breaking News4:37 PM ET
Syria Has Used Chemical Weapons Against Rebels, U.S. and European Officials Conclude

Fuck

edit: and this comes right after Bill Clinton apparently said we should arm the rebels :/
 
Fucking fuck if that's true.

Also, this is a very sectarian issue. The effort to absolutely annihilate the Shias has existed since 680 CE, and was further reinforced during the Abbasid caliphate when the Hanbali school of thought considered them as apostates/rejectionists.
 

hym

Banned
Fucking fuck if that's true.

Also, this is a very sectarian issue. The effort to absolutely annihilate the Shias has existed since 680 CE, and was further reinforced during the Abbasid caliphate when the Hanbali school of thought considered them as apostates/rejectionists.

Don't Panic!, France and the UK have been making these very same false claims for months. The US/Israel simply wants to sustain this conflict to weaken everyone involved as much as possible so it's time to restore some balance again by super charging the losers, and while that is deplorable for the victims they will make it's not an existential crisis yet.

Right now the US administration is in massive damage control mode and that means time to divert the attention with WMD fear mongering. Remember what gaining US support in the Middle East in essence means, it's a kiss of death.

There is only one big danger looming on the horizon, tomorrow are elections in Iran and GCC/US will once more try to incite the country into destabilization, and based on the terror plots already foiled they aren't sparing any expense or option. This is dangerous because if they can successfully trigger enough chaos the US will take advantage of it to perform air strikes against air defense.

And even in that case there is a good chance this harms the insurgency, if Iran is incapacitated this would be the perfect reason for Russia to get involved, they do not wage war like the US...

But US weapons for Jihadists? sucks for both parties from my perspective, the US will once again harm its reputation and those other guys tend to blow themselves up with new toys and will become the target of Al-Nusra if they don't willingly share those toys. And in the end they won't supply anything the Qataris/Saudis/Turks haven't already.
 

Magni

Member
Don't Panic!, France and the UK have been making these very same false claims for months. The US/Israel simply wants to sustain this conflict to weaken everyone involved as much as possible so it's time to restore some balance again by super charging the losers, and while that is deplorable for the victims they will make it's not an existential crisis yet.

I wouldn't be 100% certain that Assad didn't use chemical weapons (not that the rebels aren't using them themselves).

Right now the US administration is in massive damage control mode and that means time to divert the attention with WMD fear mongering. Remember what gaining US support in the Middle East in essence means, it's a kiss of death.

There is only one big danger looming on the horizon, tomorrow are elections in Iran and GCC/US will once more try to incite the country into destabilization, and based on the terror plots already foiled they aren't sparing any expense or option. This is dangerous because if they can successfully trigger enough chaos the US will take advantage of it to perform air strikes against air defense.

And even in that case there is a good chance this harms the insurgency, if Iran is incapacitated this would be the perfect reason for Russia to get involved, they do not wage war like the US...

But US weapons for Jihadists? sucks for both parties from my perspective, the US will once again harm its reputation and those other guys tend to blow themselves up with new toys and will become the target of Al-Nusra if they don't willingly share those toys. And in the end they won't supply anything the Qatari/Saudi/Turks haven't already.

Yeah adding more weapons to the mix can only worsen things, and maybe that's what the US wants in the short term, but I hope Obama would have more foresight than to do something like that. He's been resisting the calls from the Clintons among others to intervene for two years now, hope he doesn't change course.
 
This is what I've been saying from the beginning. The goal of the US in Syria is a failed state, not a democracy

They may wish for in-fighting but surely not a failed state. A failed state in their eyes is nesting ground for extremism. They may even not wish for democracy, they just wish for someone that keeps control. In any way or form possible. That was what Assad was for but now with the revolutions they can't play that game anymore.

EDIT: And yeah that "Godsend" surely is short term only. When the victor emerges you'd be sure that those weapons will be turned at the one who gifted them once again.
 

hym

Banned
They may wish for in-fighting but surely not a failed state. A failed state in their eyes is nesting ground for extremism. They may even not wish for democracy, they just wish for someone that keeps control. In any way or form possible. That was what Assad was for but now with the revolutions they can't play that game anymore.

EDIT: And yeah that "Godsend" surely is short term only. When the victor emerges you'd be sure that those weapons will be turned at the one who gifted them once again.

When a victor emerges... the whole point of providing them support now while the insurgency is at its weakest and bracing itself to lose control of Aleppo is to keep the fight going, once rebels get too strong all support will fade again.

This is what it looks like to them:

 
That must've took you a long time to make. Well illustrated I guess, I could see it before me very well that weakening both sides is discussed thoroughly between these parties presented in your rather humorous picture, but I try to look back in history in relations to US arming of foreign groups. Guess what. They all hit back when they get the chance.

EDIT: You've painted their faces yellow too !? I must applaud you for that kind of attention to detail.
 

hym

Banned
That must've took you a long time to make. Well illustrated I guess, I could see it before me very well that weakening both sides is discussed thoroughly between these parties presented in your rather humorous picture, but I try to look back in history in relations to US arming of foreign groups. Guess what. They all hit back when they get the chance.

EDIT: You've painted their faces yellow too !? I must applaud you for that kind of attention to detail.

Those deciding to empower terrorists are not the victims of terrorism, in fact it makes them stronger, 9/11 was the greatest gift neocons could have wished for, it was so perfectly suited for their agenda that some people to this day think they were involved in executing it (I don't).

The Military–industrial complex and the intelligence community expanded to unseen levels thanks to Islamist terrorism, after the Soviet Union collapsed they feared their influence would fade with it but Al-Qaeda provided exactly what they needed.
 
Oh my God. I think the day has come where I actually agree with you!

Well it's a tough nut to crack, who the heck is having the upper hand then. The Neocons want war, the jihadists provides an incentive for them to do exactly that. The problem with their plan though is when the cons choose to throw the dices but get unlucky and possibly lose!

Edit: I still think that the possible monetary winning for these industrial military complexes isn't quite enough a reason for this war mongering of the neocons. I'm sure there is more reasons for this. Maybe an continous attempt to keep the US at power at every cost. They want to live in the 90's again.
 

hym

Banned
Oh my God. I think the day has come where I actually agree with you!

Well it's a tough nut to crack, who the heck is having the upper hand then. The Neocons want war, the jihadists provides an incentive for them to do exactly that. The problem with their plan though is when the cons choose to throw the dices but get unlucky and possibly lose!

From a Neocon perspective a war can't be lost, because defeating the enemy is not the goal, perpetual war and constant threat is. 1990 Gulf War against Saddam for invading Kuwait after they stole from Iraqi oil wells, what did they do? keep Saddam in power because he was good for another round some day and was supplying a nice threat to Israel as well at a time when they couldn't paint Iran in that role yet.

Neocons fear running out of enemies more than anything else. Same deal in Israel, Hamas and Hezbollah are responsible for supplying Likud with their fear mongering material.
 

relaxor

what?
Oh my God. I think the day has come where I actually agree with you!

Well it's a tough nut to crack, who the heck is having the upper hand then. The Neocons want war, the jihadists provides an incentive for them to do exactly that. The problem with their plan though is when the cons choose to throw the dices but get unlucky and possibly lose!

Edit: I still think that the possible monetary winning for these industrial military complexes isn't quite enough a reason for this war mongering of the neocons. I'm sure there is more reasons for this. Maybe an continous attempt to keep the US at power at every cost. They want to live in the 90's again.

I think one reason is that the NeoCons delight in the idea that there's pressure on the US to act as World Police.
 

hym

Banned
I think one reason is that the NeoCons delight in the idea that there's pressure on the US to act as World Police.

By who? Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Israel? that's not exactly world police, more like mercenaries.

The world police role doesn't function when the UN doesn't play ball.
 

relaxor

what?
By who? Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Israel? that's not exactly world police, more like mercenaries.

The world police role doesn't function when the UN doesn't play ball.

Yeah you're right, most global opinion doesn't support an intervention. I suppose it's really more politically bipartisan (but not popular opinion) internal pressure.
 
From a Neocon perspective a war can't be lost, because defeating the enemy is not the goal, perpetual war and constant threat is. 1990 Gulf War against Saddam for invading Kuwait after they stole from Iraqi oil wells, what did they do? keep Saddam in power because he was good for another round some day and was supplying a nice threat to Israel as well at a time when they couldn't paint Iran in that role yet.

Neocons fear running out of enemies more than anything else. Same deal in Israel, Hamas and Hezbollah are responsible for supplying Likud with their fear mongering material.

Hamas and Hezbollah are Israeli controlled? Source?
 

hym

Banned
Hamas and Hezbollah are Israeli controlled? Source?

I don't think I implied anywhere they controlled them, Hamas perhaps because Qatar essentially has total control over them now that they've lost support from Syria and Iran. Hezbollah is Iran controlled, that's fairly straightforward but that doesn't stop Israeli neocons from benefiting from the threat they pose.

Who is keeping Hamas in power?

As a Gazan you're forced into the claws of Hamas by Israel, this is the crucial marketing their popular support relies on, but that by itself doesn't keep a show running, you need some financial backing too, in comes Saudi Arabia and Qatar to bankroll the organization.

And it's not just assholes exploiting extremists for their own interests, they were instrumental in putting those extremists in power in a vicious
divide and conquer scheme, How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas

Who benefits? IDF/Neocon Israel and Islamists, Who loses? regular Palestinians and Israelis.

This is the result of opposites depending on each other to sustain their influence, when fear and anger gives power then securing the source responsible for it is only a smart investment.

This gives an idea but it doesn't completely match my assessment: Qatar's Role in Igniting a Sunni-Shia Strife in Entire Mideast for Israel's Benefit
 
From your link:

Instead of trying to curb Gaza's Islamists from the outset, says Mr. Cohen, Israel for years tolerated and, in some cases, encouraged them as a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and its dominant faction, Yasser Arafat's Fatah.

Arafat and Palestine Liberation Organization were not interested in peace with Israel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k871l2SkQPM

Israel / Zionism does not want war on their borders. They want peace, but Arafat/Hamas don't.
 

Cromat

Member
When a victor emerges... the whole point of providing them support now while the insurgency is at its weakest and bracing itself to lose control of Aleppo is to keep the fight going, once rebels get too strong all support will fade again.

This is what it looks like to them:

You're right. What's happening in Syria has nothing to do with actual Syrians, only the result of the nefarious Western intervention. Come on... a shred of responsibility and accountability, a shred of respect for Syrians having any measure of influence over what's going on in their country.

The US, Israel or any other Western power had nothing to do with the Arab Spring. The West was actually completely blindsided by the whole thing. Who would have guessed that having millions of people being ruled by random corrupt dictators and their cronies isn't a sustainable model? I know you're portraying this as a choice between a dictator and Islamist anarchy, but if these are the only two available options then it is only because of the sorry state of the Arab world.

Between Assad and AlQaeda, I'd take Assad.
Between Assad and freedom and justice for Syria, I say he should go to hell. And you should do the same.
 
When a victor emerges... the whole point of providing them support now while the insurgency is at its weakest and bracing itself to lose control of Aleppo is to keep the fight going, once rebels get too strong all support will fade again.

This is what it looks like to them:


Well . . . then maybe they should stop fighting each other if they think they are being used by outside forces. But that is not really how it is, is it? We didn't start this war.
 

Cromat

Member
U.N. investigators say most Syria rebels not seeking democracy

So how exactly do propose you give freedom and justice to people who do not want it?

Oh I have no doubt that most of the rebel forces are terrible people with horrendous views. I'm with you on that one.
My argument with you is that you justify Assad instead of saying he is at most the lesser evil (which I'm not sure he is in the long run). Assad and his dad ruled the country for 40 years, supposedly they could have inched towards freedom and justice over the duration of that period. But they didn't, they ran an oppressive police state with a cult of personality around themselves and inhibited pretty much every political freedom imaginable. For this gross misuse of power, Assad and all of his friends deserve to go.
 
Oh I have no doubt that most of the rebel forces are terrible people with horrendous views. I'm with you on that one.
My argument with you is that you justify Assad instead of saying he is at most the lesser evil (which I'm not sure he is in the long run). Assad and his dad ruled the country for 40 years, supposedly they could have inched towards freedom and justice over the duration of that period. But they didn't, they ran an oppressive police state with a cult of personality around themselves and inhibited pretty much every political freedom imaginable. For this gross misuse of power, Assad and all of his friends deserve to go.

Agreed.

You could argue a ground invasion would be the only viable route to ensuring a fair and civil democracy to be put into place. Something that would prevent the Al Qaeda/MB groups from forcing themselves into power like they did in Libya/Egypt.
 
Agreed.

You could argue a ground invasion would be the only viable route to ensuring a fair and civil democracy to be put into place. Something that would prevent the Al Qaeda/MB groups from forcing themselves into power like they did in Libya/Egypt.

They don't want democracy. They don't see Democracy as Islamic, and they'll fight tooth and nail to get what they want.

Ironically, they (extremists) used "democracy" to justify pushing out the family of Muhammad from the caliphate, and later kill and oppress those who followed them.
 
Just because it's simplistic doesn't mean it's wrong. What about those borders? Why don't you tell me why they are moving.


Agreed.

You could argue a ground invasion would be the only viable route to ensuring a fair and civil democracy to be put into place. Something that would prevent the Al Qaeda/MB groups from forcing themselves into power like they did in Libya/Egypt.

Yeah we totally need a ground invasion so we can install a fair democracy that insures the groups we're comfortable with get elected.
 

hym

Banned
Agreed.

You could argue a ground invasion would be the only viable route to ensuring a fair and civil democracy to be put into place. Something that would prevent the Al Qaeda/MB groups from forcing themselves into power like they did in Libya/Egypt.

I suggest you watch This Is What Winning Looks Like a documentary on what the US achieved after 12 years in Afghanistan.

There is no viable route to ensuring a fair and civil democracy, even if you throw $634,524,917,870 at the issue.

That's not how such matters work, cultures need to evolve at their own pace and you can push them to speed it up you can't enforce it and hope it will stick because it absolutely doesn't.

Oh I have no doubt that most of the rebel forces are terrible people with horrendous views. I'm with you on that one.
My argument with you is that you justify Assad instead of saying he is at most the lesser evil (which I'm not sure he is in the long run). Assad and his dad ruled the country for 40 years, supposedly they could have inched towards freedom and justice over the duration of that period. But they didn't, they ran an oppressive police state with a cult of personality around themselves and inhibited pretty much every political freedom imaginable. For this gross misuse of power, Assad and all of his friends deserve to go.

You are either ignorant or a liar if you claim that 1970 Syria was the same as 2011 Syria, you do know a new constitution was ratified and the emergency law was lifted. Politicians can be elected outside of Ba'ath party approval and private media is allowed. Things did change, and everyone is free to argue it should have changed faster but if you have people willing to start a war to end freedom of religion then you clearly have bigger issues on your hands than providing more freedom.

I don't think you understand the reality of a majority supporting Islamism because these people themselves don't even realize what it actually means.

These are the people their society needs to run on. 14 year old boy executed on the street in front of his family after being tortured for being accused of blasphemy and the mother thinks it would have been an acceptable if it was actually blasphemy...

As if that's the issue. This is a different world, your logic doesn't apply.

Well . . . then maybe they should stop fighting each other if they think they are being used by outside forces. But that is not really how it is, is it? We didn't start this war.

No single group ever starts a war by itself, the US definitely helped to incite the initial confrontation by supporting opposition groups and financing an anti-government TV channel. As far as I understand it's illegal for Political parties in the US to receive donations from foreign sources so isn't it hypocritical that's exactly what the US state department is engaged? how would you feel if you found out the Tea Party and FOX News was funded by say... the Chinese government?
 
They don't want democracy. They don't see Democracy as Islamic, and they'll fight tooth and nail to get what they want.

Ironically, they (extremists) used "democracy" to justify pushing out the family of Muhammad from the caliphate, and later kill and oppress those who followed them.

I agree that its not necessarily viable or logical to try and pursue, but I don't think you can compare Iraq/Syria with Afghanistan either. Has there never been successful democracies from Western influence?
 
Oh for fucks sake what a disgrace to all Albanians- Muslim, Catholic, Atheist etc. Doesn't even have the balls to publish his name or face. Most Albanian Muslims are awesome, but guys like this just spoil it for all of us Albanians and the Balkans as a whole.

Not @ all..

Muslims like this are a whole lot better then me.. Anyone who has the balls to go fight Jihad for the sake of Allah will always get the highest praise from me..
 

hym

Banned
Not @ all..
Muslims like this are a whole lot better then me..
Those who reject rights to others can't claim those rights themselves, therefore Takfiri revoke the dubious honor to be called Muslim.

Anyone who has the balls to go fight Jihad
A Jihad cannot be waged alongside a Judeo-Christian alliance, whatever you want to call this meat grinder proxy war, it's not a Jihad thanks to your Imperialist Zionist friends.

for the sake of Allah will always get the highest praise from me..
Ignorant fools tend to praise each other, I wouldn't involve your middle man in that deal, it sounds like blasphemy so one of your 'brothers' may decide to to put a bullet through that sad excuse for a brain in front of your parents and siblings.

Then again based on Najdi desires this may well be what you fantasize about when masturbating, keep loving death as long as you remember the living own this planet.

Good luck with the Sunni Supremascim, I hope you change your mind and become 'a whole lot better' as well, the desert calls for more Takbir Pokémon juice to fertilize the Syrian land.
 

raindoc

Member
And CNN told you this right?
Bashar al-Assad has been President since 2001. Syria had 10 Presidents during the 52 year existence of the Syrian Arab Republic. 2 of which were relatives, shall I remind you of US presidents now? or just skip ahead to the good part:

lol. Assad's father was President for nearly 30 years, died in office, his son took over. very democratic.

(Syrian presidents: time in office)
Luai al-Atassi: 9 March 1963 - 27 July 1963
Amin al-Hafiz: 27 July 1963 - 23 February 1966 (deposed)
Nureddin al-Atassi: 25 February 1966 - 18 November 1970 (deposed)
Ahmad al-Khatib: 18 November 1970 - 22 February 1971

Hafez al-Assad: 22 February 1971 - 10 June 2000 (died in office)
 
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