• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • The Politics forum has been nuked. Please do not bring political discussion to the rest of the site, or you will be removed. Thanks.

Syrian Civil War |OT|

Status
Not open for further replies.
Jun 7, 2013
852
0
0
Some are saying his motorcade was hit with mortars, others say rockets.

Rumours range from him being uninjured to him being killed.

What an Eid gift if the latter is true.


Al Arabiyya is reporting that the convoy was targeted and hit on its way to Eid prayers but Assad is unharmed. This still shows the reach of the rebels and is a very important development. That said, Assad seems to have been 'killed' many many times.

That's why I mock those that report Al Arabiyya as some legitamate source when it's a sectarian racist rag put out by one of the saddistic asshole princes of Saudi Arabia. They put out so much bullshit that I don't know why anyone still takes what they say for granted anymore.

I mean, come on now!
 

muddream

Banned
Dec 21, 2012
1,976
0
0
Free Max B
Oh well, he'll get his soon enough.


lol najdi.

Actually, his status appears to be at an all time high. Him and Asma have that '03 Bonnie & Clyde Jay-Z & Beyonce aura & I'm sure he thinks his God will reward him for that sicknasty jihadi killstreak.

You're just mad his Instagram is poppin & his significantly more attractive wife wasn't worried about no ugly ass children.
 
Oct 24, 2012
4,966
0
0
Denmark, Copenhagen
Actually, his status appears to be at an all time high. Him and Asma have that '03 Bonnie & Clyde Jay-Z & Beyonce aura & I'm sure he thinks his God will reward him for that sicknasty jihadi killstreak.

You're just mad his Instagram is poppin & his significantly more attractive wife wasn't worried about no ugly ass children.

Wow awesome and truly intellectual rebuttal of his argument!
 
Jun 7, 2013
852
0
0
You only post information and videos from one side. I could post videos of the terrorists beheading minorities, shooting begging civilians for being the wrong religion, using child soldiers, torturing soldiers and civilians in he name of Islam, whole massacres of allawi towns, aftermaths of suicide bombings in markets, terrorists using anti-air weapons against civilian passenger planes, and much more.

But you and the terrorist supports would just ignore it as usual.

I won't link any of the video such as the ones where humiliate individuals by forcing them to call their parents before they are beheaded. Nor will I link to beheadings of Christians in the flurry of satanic bloodlust. Showing the last moments of terror in the victims of these barbarians is something I won't do to prove a point.
 
Oct 24, 2012
4,966
0
0
Denmark, Copenhagen
You only post information and videos from one side. I could post videos of the terrorists beheading minorities, shooting begging civilians for being the wrong religion, using child soldiers, torturing soldiers and civilians in he name of Islam, whole massacres of allawi towns, aftermaths of suicide bombings in markets, terrorists using anti-air weapons against civilian passenger planes, and much more.

But you and the terrorist supports would just ignore it as usual.

I won't link any of the video such as the ones where humiliate individuals by forcing them to call their parents before they are beheaded. Nor will I link to beheadings of Christians in the flurry of satanic bloodlust. Showing the last moments of terror in the victims of these barbarians is something I won't do to prove a point.

Well my friend, the difference between you and me is that I acknowledge that this happens. Look through my post history and see if I have one post that says this conflict is between the flawless Good FSA Soldiers and the Devilish Shabiha Murderers.

You, on the other hand, do portray it like that. That is what is making me take you not so serious.
 
Jun 7, 2013
852
0
0
Well my friend, the difference between you and me is that I acknowledge that this happens. Look through my post history and see if I have one post that says this conflict is between the flawless Good FSA Soldiers and the Devilish Shabiha Murderers.

You, on the other hand, do portray it like that. That is what is making me take you not so serious.

Nah I won't go looking through your post history when your current posts show how you feel. I don't respect people who are "biased moderates" who claim that both sides are equally bad. It makes you sound like a shill for Israel.

You see I know that the government of Assad isn't super. The amount of torture they did for the US government during renditions proves that. I also know that the murderous rebels are far worse then Assad could ever be. Unless you think ethnic cleansing by factions of Al-Qaeda and using child suicide bombers in this fake media created revolution is a good thing.

But continue posting war porn to prove some emotional need to destroy a country. In which 70% of the population supports Assad and is against the indiscriminate murder by beheading and back of the head gunshot executions for resisting the terrorists. As well as car bombing/suicide bombing in mosques and bazaars then claiming the women, children, old men where Shabiha so you can justify another atrocity.
 
Oct 24, 2012
4,966
0
0
Denmark, Copenhagen
It makes you sound like a shill for Israel.

Choomin pls.

EDIT: In other words your Dear Leader is fine and dandy.

The footage showed President Assad, dressed in a suit, praying next to Syria's grand mufti to mark Eid al-Fitr, the three-day holiday that ends the holy month of Ramadan.
State TV said the president attended prayers in the Anas bin Malik Mosque in the capital.
His appearance came hours after rebels said they had targeted his motorcade.
The Tahrir al-Sham rebel brigade, a unit of the Free Syrian Army, said in a statement: "After conducting reconnaissance (on) the timing and course of Bashar al-Assad's motorcade the area was hit with artillery. We pray to God and await the field report about the results."
It was the Syrian leader's third public appearance in over a week as his regime tries to capitalise on recent gains against rebels fighting to oust him from power.

EDIT 2: I'm sounding like a complete asshole and so condescending. Sorry.

Choomin I accept that you have your opinion I just disagree. That's what so great with this forum, we have the opportunity to discuss our opinions and maybe even sway each other in the process! I just think your black/white look at it all is not only detrimental for the discussion at hand but for yourself too.
 

OttomanScribe

Member
Nov 10, 2009
5,468
0
940
The Islamic State of Tinsley
There can't honestly be people out there who still claim that the brigades are without blood on their hands?


Then again if people can make out Assad to merely be 'fighting terrorists' rather than bloodily suppressing first protests and then a rebellion against his murderous dictatorship... people will believe anything.


I am no idealogue, I have no love for many of the brigades, however there are instigators in this conflict, and the external influence of undesirables only happened because of the Assadists suppression of protests. Unlike the FSA, the regime has a clear hierarchy, so the culpability for the crimes of the militias they employ is far clearer.
 
Oct 24, 2012
4,966
0
0
Denmark, Copenhagen
I am no idealogue, I have no love for many of the brigades, however there are instigators in this conflict, and the external influence of undesirables only happened because of the Assadists suppression of protests. Unlike the FSA, the regime has a clear hierarchy, so the culpability for the crimes of the militias they employ is far clearer.

This is a great post.
 

Sibylus

Banned
Dec 18, 2007
23,682
1
0
waypoint.vice.com
There can't honestly be people out there who still claim that the brigades are without blood on their hands?


Then again if people can make out Assad to merely be 'fighting terrorists' rather than bloodily suppressing first protests and then a rebellion against his murderous dictatorship... people will believe anything.


I am no idealogue, I have no love for many of the brigades, however there are instigators in this conflict, and the external influence of undesirables only happened because of the Assadists suppression of protests. Unlike the FSA, the regime has a clear hierarchy, so the culpability for the crimes of the militias they employ is far clearer.
Have to also give this post some love, agree without reservation. That there are a lot of little monsters fighting one large one doesn't instil any feelings of appreciation for Assad in me. Would it not be best to have both no longer in the picture?
 

OttomanScribe

Member
Nov 10, 2009
5,468
0
940
The Islamic State of Tinsley
Have to also give this post some love, agree without reservation. That there are a lot of little monsters fighting one large one doesn't instil any feelings of appreciation for Assad in me. Would it not be best to have both no longer in the picture?
I would have loved if the transition away from the regime was democratic, non-violent. That it wasn't falls at the feet of many, but most overwhelming blame is with Assad. The people of Syria had no love for the Wahhabis that are coming to define the opposition, because they have the guns.


I fear what will happen when he does fall, it won't be good, but this is not a pendulum, if the regime is bad it doesn't make the opposition good, and vice versa... however Assad has made it clear that change won't come while he is in power unless through a veil of blood.


Hence my hope that at least some of that blood is his.
 
Jul 14, 2012
3,394
0
0
Have to also give this post some love, agree without reservation. That there are a lot of little monsters fighting one large one doesn't instil any feelings of appreciation for Assad in me. Would it not be best to have both no longer in the picture?

The fact they are in the picture makes what is best less-and-less meaningful to the growing number of displaced. No one is sadly going to just lay down their arms and leave the picture so that the Syrian people can return to their daily lives. Three governments exist: Assad's, National Coalition for Syrian Revolutionary and Opposition Forces, and a quasi-autonomous Kurdish group and they are not negotiating. There are parties that seem more than willing to prop-up this conflict indefinitely (both internally and externally), and this conflict has built up too much momentum to [tragically] stop any time soon.


The numbers continue to rise – over 4,400 killed in the holy fasting month of Ramadan alone, nearly 2 million refugees now in Jordan and Lebanon, and 7 million inside the country in need of urgent food aid. Syria continues to bleed, its borders are fissuring and the tremors propelled throughout the region – principally to Iraq, Lebanon and Jordan – are no longer a matter of conjecture but of fact.

Officials at Oxfam estimate that 25% of the population of Lebanon is now Syrian. The refugee crisis is disguised because the refugees themselves are dispersed – 80% of them are living outside the camps. Even a windowless garage without running water or drainage is considered a valuable rent, and there is a resistance to being registered as a refugee, for fear that if the regime at home finds out, they could lose their property in Syria.
[...]
Mr Assad must be feeling more confident than he was a year ago of his force's ability to fight back – and that is before one counts on the pro-Assad side of the balance sheet reports that Iran and Hezbollah have established a force of at least 50,000 fighters. They were the cutting edge of the attack on Qusair (Hezbollah's high casualty rate reflected this). Whatever the personal fate of Mr Assad and his family, a force of this size, and possibly double, means that Iran is building the capacity to ensure that it will have a role in determining the future of Syria, independently of what happens on the battlefield or the negotiating table. Iran is by no means alone.

Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Turkey have made similar investments. It is called the Free Syrian Army, but in reality it is a loose collection of militias under a command that is unified in name only. Clashes on the ground between rival anti-Assad forces have grown in frequency. Nor do the rebels' various backers have a common interest: Turkey, while backing the Islamist alternative to Mr Assad, is keen to prevent Syrian Kurds from providing a fresh springboard for the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK), especially after Ankara's peace deal with it. But it has produced tensions between the Turkish-backed Syrian National Council, the Free Syrian Army and Kurdish forces. This remains a fight among Syrians, heightened by sectarian divisions. But the European council on foreign relations is surely right to conclude in a report which examines the regional struggle for Syria that the shattered country has become first and foremost a struggle for regional ambitions.
[...]
western propoganda (guardian)

Syrian opposition sources close to Saudi Arabia said Prince Bandar offered to buy up to $15 billion of Russian weapons as well as ensuring that Gulf gas would not threaten Russia's position as a main gas supplier to Europe.

In return, Saudi Arabia wanted Moscow to ease its strong support of Assad and agree not to block any future Security Council Resolution on Syria, they said.

A Gulf source familiar with the matter confirmed that Prince Bandar offered to buy large quantities of arms from Russia, but that no cash amount was specified in the talks.

One Lebanese politician close to Saudi Arabia said the meeting between Bandar and Putin lasted four hours. "The Saudis were elated about the outcome of the meeting," said the source, without elaborating.

Putin's initial response to Bandar's offer was inconclusive, diplomats say. One Western diplomat in the Middle East said the Russian leader was unlikely to trade Moscow's recent high-profile in the region for an arms deal, however substantial.

He said Russian officials also appeared sceptical that Saudi Arabia had a clear plan for stability in Syria if Assad fell.
Oil-money backed publication (gulf daily news)

Global Imperialist Data



With conditions continuing to deteriorate in Syria, the Obama administration is making a major policy shift by agreeing for the first time to allow thousands of new Syrian refugees into the United States, The Cable has learned.

The numbers are relatively small: just 2,000 refugees, compared to an estimated two million people who have fled Syria during the civil war. But it's a significant increase from the 90 or so Syrian refugees who have been permanently admitted to the U.S. in the last two years. And it's not entirely uncontroversial. The refugees, mostly women and children, will be screened for terrorist ties -- a process that could take a year or more to complete.
[...]
It's yet to be seen if Congress will push back against the Obama administration's acceptance of the Syrian refugees. (Ordinarily, the U.S. only admits refugees after a conflict has gone on for five years or longer.) Though the State Department's refugee admission program is authorized by a presidential determination, it does involve consultation with Congress.

Of course, admitting 2,000 Syrians won't even begin to ease the suffering of Syria's refugees; the U.N. estimates that by the end of 2013, 3.5 million Syrians will have fled the country. It's also worth nothing the 6.8 million Syrian people in need of humanitarian assistance. Clements emphasized that permanent resettlement is just one means by which the U.S. is contributing to the humanitarian relief effort. "We are exceedingly frustrated to be quite honest because we can't keep up with the humanitarian need especially inside Syria," [State Department's deputy assistant secretary for Population, Refugees, and Migration] Clements said. "We are expanding our support for humanitarian assistance through all sorts of angles, but we can't keep up."
source- more western propoganda

Oxfam

UNHRC



I'm also in the camp that thinks Assad came down too hard on the protestors from the get-go. No one will ever know "who shot first" and there are more important aspects to this conflict than fingering the most horrible, that's the subject for a reconciliation commission redressing these grievances in the future.


I would have loved if the transition away from the regime was democratic, non-violent. That it wasn't falls at the feet of many, but most overwhelming blame is with Assad. The people of Syria had no love for the Wahhabis that are coming to define the opposition, because they have the guns.


I fear what will happen when he does fall, it won't be good, but this is not a pendulum, if the regime is bad it doesn't make the opposition good, and vice versa... however Assad has made it clear that change won't come while he is in power unless through a veil of blood.


Hence my hope that at least some of that blood is his.
I don't like the call "hope" for blood.
 

Sibylus

Banned
Dec 18, 2007
23,682
1
0
waypoint.vice.com
The fact they are in the picture makes what is best less-and-less meaningful to the growing number of displaced. No one is sadly going to just lay down their arms and leave the picture so that the Syrian people can return to their daily lives. Three governments exist: Assad's, National Coalition for Syrian Revolutionary and Opposition Forces, and a quasi-autonomous Kurdish group and they are not negotiating. There are parties that seem more than willing to prop-up this conflict indefinitely (both internally and externally), and this conflict has built up too much momentum to [tragically] stop any time soon.
Your points are certainly fair, but I'm not sure how siding with one monster to beat the next helps the displaced either. That may certainly be policy for any of the outside nations involved at present, but they fall very far indeed from cutting as many snake's heads at once as humanly possible. But for that, well, which outsider would pay the hefty price in blood and oil to do it? Who has the requisite public opinion to do it? The UN would deadlock a joint effort readily, and I know of no nation on earth willing to take that burden on alone.
 
Jul 14, 2012
3,394
0
0
Your points are certainly fair, but I'm not sure how siding with one monster to beat the next helps the displaced either. That may certainly be policy for any of the outside nations involved at present, but they fall very far indeed from cutting as many snake's heads at once as humanly possible. But for that, well, which outsider would pay the hefty price in blood and oil to do it? Who has the requisite public opinion to do it? The UN would deadlock a joint effort readily, and I know of no nation on earth willing to take that burden on alone.
I don't know the answers to your questions whether or not they were rhetorical.
 

OttomanScribe

Member
Nov 10, 2009
5,468
0
940
The Islamic State of Tinsley
The fact they are in the picture makes what is best less-and-less meaningful to the growing number of displaced. No one is sadly going to just lay down their arms and leave the picture so that the Syrian people can return to their daily lives. Three governments exist: Assad's, National Coalition for Syrian Revolutionary and Opposition Forces, and a quasi-autonomous Kurdish group and they are not negotiating. There are parties that seem more than willing to prop-up this conflict indefinitely (both internally and externally), and this conflict has built up too much momentum to [tragically] stop any time soon.
How does it makes what is best less and less meaningful to the growing refugee crisis in the region? The option of stability but dictatorship went out the window when the civil war started, and now it is a free for all.

I scoff at the Assadists lamenting outside, 'imperial' help when they are propped up by a regional hegemon whose militias cross the border from Lebanon.
I don't like the call "hope" for blood.
Okay.
 
Jul 14, 2012
3,394
0
0
How does it makes what is best less and less meaningful to the growing refugee crisis in the region? The option of stability but dictatorship went out the window when the civil war started, and now it is a free for all.

I scoff at the Assadists lamenting outside, 'imperial' help when they are propped up by a regional hegemon whose militias cross the border from Lebanon.

Okay.
It just seems to me that the longer this goes on, the longer armed groups destabilize the population, the harder it will be to bring back the semblance of normal life. This is obvious. What could be subjectively best seems less and less, for everyone, every day as more destruction is wrought. I wouldn't be surprised if Assad's days were numbered but even then, I don't know that would bring about a restoration of civil society; and I believe that it would be preferable to see Assad put on trial for his crimes (among others). His days could very well be numbered but I hope that the need to satiate revenge doesn't spiral into a worse situation than we have today. I do agree that it appears to be a bloody free-for-all.

While the future of the Country is up-in-the-air, the future generation is dealing with this:
 

liger05

Member
Sep 5, 2009
4,286
0
0
Are the SMC doing deals with Assad?

Only source is twitter feeds but they say FSA brigades had to leave the frontlines in Lattakia due to there leaders not providing them with weapons. The SMC againt moving the battle to Assad's heartland?
 
Jun 7, 2013
852
0
0
Choomin I accept that you have your opinion I just disagree. That's what so great with this forum, we have the opportunity to discuss our opinions and maybe even sway each other in the process! I just think your black/white look at it all is not only detrimental for the discussion at hand but for yourself too.

See I don't have a black and white view of the situation. When the Egyptian "revolution" happened I backed the people on the street. I was for all of them actually. Then when what happened in Libya was revealed in which 100,000 people weren't killed and the army wasn't a huge rape squad and they practically ethnically cleansed all the black people. Well, I decided to to be skeptical towards GCC rags and US media that bends over backwards for the government's foreign policy so they can get the scoop.

In Syria, Al-Jazeera was lying so much that journalists quit out of principle. Everyday, 20 people consistently died because someone on a cellphone said so. They would claim all of it was peaceful protests but it was violent from the beginning. I could go on and on but I won't. I could even mention that in the beginning that a good portion of the security forces where part of the death tally but some excuse would come up like the libyan lie of "they switched sides".

What you should know though is that I think Assad and his government are monsters. They helped torture people who where rendered by america during the Bush years. But Assad didn't start this civil war. This fake revolution was started in the pentagon, the gcc palaces, and the mansions of scummy ex-pats.
 

MisterFalcon

Member
Mar 12, 2013
3,511
648
690
What you should know though is that I think Assad and his government are monsters. They helped torture people who where rendered by america during the Bush years.

Are they monsters for using torture or using torture for America ? Plenty of Syrians were tortured by the mukhabarat without orders from Washington. I remember reading a joke in a book on the Middle East how Syria, the US and Soviet Union would find a rabbit in a field of long grass.

The Soviets would deploy hundreds of spies to go through every bit of the grass.

The US would deploy a multimillion dollar radar guided carrot to locate the rabbit.

The Syrians would arrest a donkey and torture him until he admitted to being a rabbit.
 
Jul 14, 2012
3,394
0
0
Are they monsters for using torture or using torture for America ? Plenty of Syrians were tortured by the mukhabarat without orders from Washington. I remember reading a joke in a book on the Middle East how Syria, the US and Soviet Union would find a rabbit in a field of long grass.

The Soviets would deploy hundreds of spies to go through every bit of the grass.

The US would deploy a multimillion dollar radar guided carrot to locate the rabbit.

The Syrians would arrest a donkey and torture him until he admitted to being a rabbit.
Reminds me of a joke about taking down Lenin statues in Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania. I like it.

See I don't have a black and white view of the situation. When the Egyptian "revolution" happened I backed the people on the street. I was for all of them actually. Then when what happened in Libya was revealed in which 100,000 people weren't killed and the army wasn't a huge rape squad and they practically ethnically cleansed all the black people. Well, I decided to to be skeptical towards GCC rags and US media that bends over backwards for the government's foreign policy so they can get the scoop.
Include some sources so it doesn't seem like you're just talking out of your ass. I'm sorry but to me, you are coming off screaming "Benghazi" here and I'm with Hillary Clinton, Suzan Rice, and Samatha Powers on the R2P in Lybia, and at least owning the mistakes that were made after the UN greenlit operations. I don't know if you are reffering to the initial reasons to involve NATO or the attack that killed Ambassador Stevens; or, if you are referring to the militias Gaddafi rented from the Sahal, black Libyans, or both.

In Syria, Al-Jazeera was lying so much that journalists quit out of principle. Everyday, 20 people consistently died because someone on a cellphone said so. They would claim all of it was peaceful protests but it was violent from the beginning. I could go on and on but I won't. I could even mention that in the beginning that a good portion of the security forces where part of the death tally but some excuse would come up like the libyan lie of "they switched sides".
I think most people reading this thread understand your dislike of various media sources but your hearsay would be much more credible with some documentation.

What you should know though is that I think Assad and his government are monsters. They helped torture people who where rendered by america during the Bush years. But Assad didn't start this civil war. This fake revolution was started in the pentagon, the gcc palaces, and the mansions of scummy ex-pats.
Do you have anything that isn't sourced to Roland Dumas? The guy comes off to me like an opportunist that seeks attention ruffling feathers and rocking the boat. Has he ever identified the individuals from where this information came from? You should say "fake popular revolution" just to be more clear. I don't agree but even if orchestrated it was a revolution nevertheless.

General Choomin is a marijuana reference, yes? I'm not judging you just remind me of some anarchist hippies living out in the woods in Oregon.
 
Oct 24, 2012
4,966
0
0
Denmark, Copenhagen
Turkish pilots kidnapped in Lebanon

Group called Zuwar al Imam Reda claims responsibility and demands release of Lebanese Shias abducted in Syria in 2012.

Two Turkish pilots working for Turkish Airlines have been been kidnapped by armed men in the Lebanese capital, Beirut.

"A kidnapping operation took place at 3:00 am targeting a bus carrying several members of a Turkish Airlines crew going from the airport to the hotel. Gunmen kidnapped two passengers from the bus, the pilot and co-pilot'' Lebanon's Interior Minister Marwan Charbel said.

Zuwar al Imam Reda, a previously unknown group, claimed responsibility for Friday's abduction and demanded the release of a group of Lebanese Shia pilgrims kidnapped in Syria in 2012, Turkish and Lebanese press reports said.

Turkish Airlines press office announced that the pilots were Turkish nationals named Murat Agca and Murat Akpinar.

Inan Ozyildiz, Turkey's ambassador to Lebanon, told Turkey's Anatolia News Agency that the pilots had flown a Turkish Airlines flight from Istanbul to Beirut and were on their way from the airport to their hotel when the abduction happened.

The seven other passengers on the targeted bus were flight attendants, he said.

"The driver and flight attendants were forced to get off from the bus, and pilot and co-pilot were kidnapped [together with the bus]," Ozyildiz said.

Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu said on social networking site Twitter that no effort will be spared to secure the release of the pilots.

Turkish President Abdullah Gul also commented on the incident and told that he would soon speak to Lebanese President Michel Suleiman.

Turkey also warned it citizens against non-essential travel to Lebanon and called on those already in the country to return home.

Abducted Shia pilgrims

Two Turkish nationals were briefly abducted in Lebanon last year, following the capture of nine Lebanese Shia Muslims in Syria's northern Aleppo province and the separate detention of a Lebanese national in Damascus by rebels.

They are reportedly being held by the rebel group Northern Storm Brigade (Asifar al Shamal). Turkey is said to wield influence over the group.

The abducted Shias were part of a group of pilgrims who went missing as they were returning from a pilgrimage in Iran. The women in the group and two men were released later.

A representative for the families of the kidnapped Lebanese has denied in a statement any involvement in the abduction of the Turkish pilots.

There have been several failed rounds of negotiations to free the Lebanese.

The war in Syria frequently spills over into neighbouring Lebanon.

The Turkish government is a staunch supporter of the Syrian opposition. On the other hand, Hezbollah, the armed Lebanese Shia political group, actively provides support for the forces of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.
 

hym

Banned
Aug 10, 2011
2,483
0
0
I think most people reading this thread understand your dislike of various media sources but your hearsay would be much more credible with some documentation.

How about Amnesty International:

During the siege of Misrata in May 2011, Amnesty International reported "horrifying" tactics such as "indiscriminate attacks that have led to massive civilian casualties, including use of heavy artillery, rockets and cluster bombs in civilian areas and sniper fire against residents." Gaddafi's military commanders also reportedly executed soldiers who refused to fire on protesters. The International Federation for Human Rights reported a case where 130 soldiers were executed. Some of the soldiers executed by their commanders were reportedly burned alive.

HORRIBLE huh? also sounds familiar to claims in Syria, then an actual investigation happened by a team on the ground and not just “reports”.

In June 2011, a more detailed investigation carried out by Amnesty International found that many of the allegations against Gaddafi and the Libyan state turned out to either be false or lack any credible evidence, saying that rebels at times appeared to have knowingly made false claims or manufactured evidence.

Oops, but at least Libya is a free and stable democracy now right. Hah

Libyan rebels 'sign oil export deal with Qatar'
 

OttomanScribe

Member
Nov 10, 2009
5,468
0
940
The Islamic State of Tinsley
See I don't have a black and white view of the situation.
When the Egyptian "revolution" happened I backed the people on the street. I was for all of them actually. Then when what happened in Libya was revealed in which 100,000 people weren't killed and the army wasn't a huge rape squad and they practically ethnically cleansed all the black people. Well, I decided to to be skeptical towards GCC rags and US media that bends over backwards for the government's foreign policy so they can get the scoop.


In Syria, Al-Jazeera was lying so much that journalists quit out of principle. Everyday, 20 people consistently died because someone on a cellphone said so. They would claim all of it was peaceful protests but it was violent from the beginning. I could go on and on but I won't. I could even mention that in the beginning that a good portion of the security forces where part of the death tally but some excuse would come up like the libyan lie of "they switched sides".

What you should know though is that I think Assad and his government are monsters. They helped torture people who where rendered by america during the Bush years. But Assad didn't start this civil war. This fake revolution was started in the pentagon, the gcc palaces, and the mansions of scummy ex-pats.

Your definition of 'black and white' may be different to mine then. Conspiratorial analysis of a complex conflict will only ever come off as black and white. The Syrian rebellion doesn't serve US interests, they are just trying to control what they can in the wake of weakening influence in the region. There are no all powerful actors here, and the US is certainly not capable of the kind of agency you attribute to them.


This is a lovely myth that the Assadists built, that support for them is an anti-imperial position. The reality is that it is just supporting one sphere of influence over another. Russia, China, Turkey, Iran, Saudi, US, Israel, all have their own interests in the conflict and none are wholly congruent. Picking one side out of all of those and declaring them as definitive in what occurs is frankly ridiculous. It doesn't account for people like Muhammed Al-Yaqoubi who played such a large role, especially early on.
 

OttomanScribe

Member
Nov 10, 2009
5,468
0
940
The Islamic State of Tinsley
How about Amnesty International:



HORRIBLE huh? also sounds familiar to claims in Syria, then an actual investigation happened by a team on the ground and not just “reports”.



Oops, but at least Libya is a free and stable democracy now right. Hah

Libyan rebels 'sign oil export deal with Qatar'
Full quote:

In June 2011, a detailed investigation carried out by Amnesty International claimed that many of the allegations against Gaddafi and the Libyan state turned out to either be false or lack any credible evidence, noting that rebels at times appeared to have knowingly made false claims or manufactured evidence. According to the Amnesty investigation, the number of casualties was heavily exaggerated, some of the protesters may have been armed, "there is no proof of mass killing of civilians on the scale of Syria or Yemen," and there is no evidence that aircraft or heavy anti-aircraft machine guns were used against crowds. It also doubted claims from the Western media that the protest movement was "entirely peaceful" and "presented no security challenge."

However in a later report from Amnesty International it was found that "al-Gaddafi forces committed serious violations of international humanitarian law (IHL), including war crimes, and gross human rights violations,which point to the commission of crimes against humanity. They deliberately killed and injured scores of unarmed protesters; subjected perceived opponents and critics to enforced disappearance and torture and other ill- treatment; and arbitrarily detained scores of civilians. They launched indiscriminate attacks and attacks targeting civilians in their efforts to regain control of Misratah and territory in the east. They launched artillery, mortar and rocket attacks against residential areas. They used inherently indiscriminate weapons such as anti-personnel mines and cluster bombs,including in residential areas.
 

hym

Banned
Aug 10, 2011
2,483
0
0
They deliberately killed and injured scores of unarmed protesters

Ah yes the famous mythical unarmed protestor, so common in the Middle East all of a sudden.

The protests, unrest and confrontations began in earnest on 15 February 2011. On the evening of 15 February, between 500 and 600 demonstrators protested in front of Benghazi's police headquarters after the arrest of human rights lawyer Fathi Terbil. Crowds were armed with petrol bombs and threw stones. Marchers hurled Molotov cocktails in a downtown square in Benghazi, damaging cars, blocking roads, and hurling rocks.

They were armed when it began...

And there was Qatar hiding behind the corner to handout weapons at the exact point people were incited enough to fire back.

Civil war by itself is a fallacy really, they don't happen this spontaneous without outside intervention.
 

OttomanScribe

Member
Nov 10, 2009
5,468
0
940
The Islamic State of Tinsley
Ah yes the famous mythical unarmed protestor, so common in the Middle East all of a sudden.



They were armed when it began...

So your source suddenly becomes unreliable when, quoted in full, it refutes you.

Good to know.
Civil war by itself is a fallacy really, they don't happen this spontaneous without outside intervention.
Spontaneous? Maybe ten thousand dead in Homs, decades ago, this is hardly spontaneous. Syria has been a pressure cooker for years, this is just the pop.
 

hym

Banned
Aug 10, 2011
2,483
0
0
There are no all powerful actors here

Tell that to the people who pay for your mosque.

The Saudi prince also reassured Putin that "whatever regime comes after" Assad, it will be "completely" in the Saudis' hands and will not sign any agreement allowing any Gulf country to transport its gas across Syria to Europe and compete with Russian gas exports, the diplomat said.

Spontaneous? Maybe ten thousand dead in Homs, decades ago, this is hardly spontaneous. Syria has been a pressure cooker for years, this is just the pop.

“Every war is measured by the period of calm it provides until the next war breaks out.”

It worked great, eliminating the Muslim Brotherhood provided Syria with 31 years of peace.
 

hym

Banned
Aug 10, 2011
2,483
0
0

OttomanScribe

Member
Nov 10, 2009
5,468
0
940
The Islamic State of Tinsley
Majority of American Mosques Touched by Saudi Effort to Entrench Movement's Harsh Views

Spoiler, it's not just America. In Russia they did try to get rid of it in 2006 by making foreign funding for domestic religious organizations illegal but I have my doubts it was very effective. To deal with this you need to eliminate the root.

Spoiler, you're showing your hand if you think I am pro-Saudi because I support the toppling of Assad.

I am no fan of the Wahhabis and losing Syria to them would be close to as bad as keeping the Assadists. Syrian Islam was never particularly amenable to their literalism and the spread of Wahhabism is oft overstated, sure a bunch of Masajid get funding from them (not mine) but people take the money and leave the pamphlets.

If it was that easy to buy people, the world would be a very different place.


Also if that is your argument for Saudi being an all powerful, ultra conspiratorial actor, you need to come up with a better one.
 

hym

Banned
Aug 10, 2011
2,483
0
0
Also if that is your argument for Saudi being an all powerful, ultra conspiratorial actor, you need to come up with a better one.

It's not my argument it is their own:

The Saudi prince also reassured Putin that "whatever regime comes after" Assad, it will be "completely" in the Saudis' hands and will not sign any agreement allowing any Gulf country to transport its gas across Syria to Europe and compete with Russian gas exports, the diplomat said.

COMPLETELY

You think they are paying for this farce and expect nothing in return?

This is not the first time they tried to buy a country through war, I suggest you look up who was funding the Sunni brigades during the Lebanese Civil War, operating alongside Jewish, American, French forces.

Coincidence? If it wasn't for Hezbollah...
 

OttomanScribe

Member
Nov 10, 2009
5,468
0
940
The Islamic State of Tinsley
It's not my argument it is their own:



COMPLETELY

You think they are paying for this farce and expect nothing in return?

Your article describes them as 'exasperated and desperate'. The reason that the quote is so amusing is because it contradicts so clearly with reality.

Now you expect me to take the claim at face value, in support of some sort of weird conspiratorial understanding of the whole conflict?

Nup. Not buying it.
 
Jul 14, 2012
3,394
0
0
How about Amnesty International:


HORRIBLE huh? also sounds familiar to claims in Syria, then an actual investigation happened by a team on the ground and not just “reports”.

Oops, but at least Libya is a free and stable democracy now right. Hah

Libyan rebels 'sign oil export deal with Qatar'
I said it is something that needs to be owned, as in responsibility taken for it. I didn't say Libya was stable, its clear that's its not. If you want the West painted as the badguy, I can understand that "they [we]" are not without wrongdoing.

The Russians don't seem to believe the Saudis can deliver post-Assad. King Abdullah donated 100M to a UN Counter Terrorism Center two days ago. Libyan weapons have gone to Syria and the whole region is politically unstable. Tunisia's assassinations and recent protests, the jail break in Libya, Egypt ffs, ... It would be nice to go back and right the wrongs but I do not believe that hindsight is 20/20, nor can it be, until there is a cathartic display of justice that doesn't involve barbaric retribution. Not to oversimplify but if Israel and Iran could get along (I know how naive that sounds), the whole region could probably tell the rest of the World to fuck off and express a modicum of regional sovereignty, losers being: the weapon industrial complexes.

I don't want to argue and I've expressed myself, so I will wish you well and hope we can all remain respectful -even with our disagreements.
 
Jun 7, 2013
852
0
0
Your definition of 'black and white' may be different to mine then. Conspiratorial analysis of a complex conflict will only ever come off as black and white. The Syrian rebellion doesn't serve US interests, they are just trying to control what they can in the wake of weakening influence in the region. There are no all powerful actors here, and the US is certainly not capable of the kind of agency you attribute to them.


This is a lovely myth that the Assadists built, that support for them is an anti-imperial position. The reality is that it is just supporting one sphere of influence over another. Russia, China, Turkey, Iran, Saudi, US, Israel, all have their own interests in the conflict and none are wholly congruent. Picking one side out of all of those and declaring them as definitive in what occurs is frankly ridiculous. It doesn't account for people like Muhammed Al-Yaqoubi who played such a large role, especially early on.

So your saying a bunch of nothing about black and white and then calling me an Assadist? Can I call you a Wahhabi salifi baby killer then if I'm on the other side?

PS Saying that the fake rebellion isn't beholden to any foreign entity is laughable. How many times have their spokespersons said that they won't attack Israel if they win? Clearly this is to placate the west, Israel, and the GCC.

PPS: less words more substance please.
 

OttomanScribe

Member
Nov 10, 2009
5,468
0
940
The Islamic State of Tinsley
So your saying a bunch of nothing about black and white and then calling me an Assadist? Can I call you a Wahhabi salifi baby killer then if I'm on the other side?
I didn't call you an Assadist.
PS Saying that the fake rebellion isn't beholden to any foreign entity is laughable. How many times have their spokespersons said that they won't attack Israel if they win? Clearly this is to placate the west, Israel, and the GCC.
You haven't established a conspiracy to create a fake rebellion to maintain a peace that already existed with Israel. You also have misunderstood my point if you think I am arguing that foreign influence doesn't exist within the rebellion. The entire point is that what was initially a natural consequence of the regime's ongoing quelling of political dissent has transformed into a clash between the sphere of influences of multiple nations. You aren't talking about that, you are defining the conflict as essentially an organised conspiracy, black and white.
 

remist

Member
Nov 14, 2011
1,977
0
0
Your article describes them as 'exasperated and desperate'. The reason that the quote is so amusing is because it contradicts so clearly with reality.

Now you expect me to take the claim at face value, in support of some sort of weird conspiratorial understanding of the whole conflict?

Nup. Not buying it.

That is a mischaracterization of the article. They are 'exasperated and desperate' because the Assad regime looks like it will persevere, not because their influence with the rebel's is waning. On that front they are quite confident. Although you can't take their words at face value, it is naive to downplay the extent of their influence.
 

OttomanScribe

Member
Nov 10, 2009
5,468
0
940
The Islamic State of Tinsley
That is a mischaracterization of the article. They are 'exasperated and desperate' because the Assad regime looks like it will persevere, not because their influence with the rebel's is waning. On that front they are quite confident. Although you can't take their words at face value, it is naive to downplay the extent of their influence.

This is not a discussion of whether or not the Saudis have influence over the rebels, it is whether or not they exist as an almost all powerful and definitive actor in the conflict, as opposed to one of many.

Even the reality that many of the brigades are now wahhabi affiliated does not mean that they are pro-Saudi per se.
 

remist

Member
Nov 14, 2011
1,977
0
0
This is not a discussion of whether or not the Saudis have influence over the rebels, it is whether or not they exist as an almost all powerful and definitive actor in the conflict, as opposed to one of many.

Even the reality that many of the brigades are now wahhabi affiliated does not mean that they are pro-Saudi per se.

While not all powerful, would you deny that they are the most prominent and influential of the various actors who support the rebels?
 

OttomanScribe

Member
Nov 10, 2009
5,468
0
940
The Islamic State of Tinsley
While not all powerful, would you deny that they are the most prominent and influential of the various actors who support the rebels?

The most powerful of the brigades, militarily anyway, is arguably Jabhat al-Nusra, which I don't think is receiving any particular state's backing. Saudi influence is arguably more through the tribal confederacies and indirect arms shipments than anything else. You know, all of a sudden a bunch of Steyr rifles turn up after a guard group in Saudi decommissions them in favour of a worse rifle.

People think that the Saudi state is automatically in favour of Islamist factions, forgetting that an increase in Wahabbism doesn't necessarily benefit a regime already constantly walking a tightrope with the Majlis.

They are one actor amongst many, their influence being different to states like Turkey and the United States. I mean even France, since Hollande, is taking an active role in trying to turn the fighting their way.
 
Jun 7, 2013
852
0
0
This is not a discussion of whether or not the Saudis have influence over the rebels, it is whether or not they exist as an almost all powerful and definitive actor in the conflict, as opposed to one of many.

Even the reality that many of the brigades are now wahhabi affiliated does not mean that they are pro-Saudi per se.

Well they do when they supply the sectarian ideaology, the money, and arms. The GCC does that in general but the Saudis lead. To deny that is to live in a fantasy land.

Also, "per se" is something that disingenuous people use in arguments. Just giving you the heads up.
 

OttomanScribe

Member
Nov 10, 2009
5,468
0
940
The Islamic State of Tinsley
Well they do when they supply the sectarian ideaology, the money, and arms. The GCC does that in general but the Saudis lead. To deny that is to live in a fantasy land.
Saudi Arabia is like Pakistan in this respect, while on the one hand they see the benefit in backing certain groups, which serve their interests, in the long term such groups may work out worse for them. Hell, that describes the US and Syrian regime too. I mean a lot of the Sunni militias coming over from Iraq were arguably influenced by Syrian backing against the coalition, not to mention Iranian weapons supplies.

You're talking about a world where things are so clear cut, where you can buy what is essentially a gangster militia and not expect that to bite you, where you can manufacture a revolution in one of the most tightly controlled countries in the world. That isn't this world, that isn't how it works.

You have this fantastic idea of a massive conspiracy to achieve.... what exactly?

I mean you talked about Israel... as though there wasn't already a long standing agreement between Damascus and Tel Aviv before things fell apart. You think Israel wants a state run by Jabhat al-Nusra? You think anyone but JN want that? I mean hell, all the khilafa talk coming out of the Islamist groups is literally a direct challenge to Saudi, Turkey, Jordan, Qatar... all of them.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.