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Take Two FR: Record revenues, but still losing money

Opiate

Member
Other highlights: Take Two has reached contract agreements with Rockstar's upper management through 2012. In case there was any suggestion of an exodus, that notion is now quashed.

Carnival Games for Wii and DS, along with Carnival Games Mini Golf, have collectively shipped 3 million copies thus far.
 

Opiate

Member
TJ Spyke said:
That is for August, September, and October. For the the period of November 1, 2007 to October 31, 2008 it's this:

360: 39%
PS3: 34%
Wii: 9%
PS2: 8%
PSP: 5%
PC: 3%
DS/GBA: 2%

Yes, that is the yearly total. Thank you.
 

BorkBork

The Legend of BorkBork: BorkBorkity Borking
Not that it's a bad thing, but when I saw the title, I thought of Opiate. :lol
 

Opiate

Member
Shares of Take Two have fallen on this news. In Q4 of 2007, Take Two lost 7.1 Million dollars. Losses have increased since last year.

However, Take Two did have a very large surge in the middle of the year, thanks to Grand Theft Auto 4. In Q2, T2 posted net income of nearly 100 million dollars. However, as expected by analysts, it appears that boost was only temporary and they are now right back to losing money.

If you assume a GTA release every 3-4 years, they are losing substantial money overall.
 
bmf said:
Wait? When did they release any games for the Wii?
Opiate said:
Other highlights: Take Two has reached contract agreements with Rockstar's upper management through 2012. In case there was any suggestion of an exodus, that notion is now quashed.

Carnival Games for Wii and DS, along with Carnival Games Mini Golf, have collectively shipped 3 million copies thus far.
.
 

Aselith

Member
Are there any third party, US companies that actual ever make money? You would think yes but everytime I see these reports they're losing money. Is it just poor management or what? Japanese companies seem to do pretty well for themselves not so much over here.
 

Link

The Autumn Wind
bmf said:
Wait? When did they release any games for the Wii?
 

Opiate

Member
Aselith said:
Are there any third party, US companies that actual ever make money? You would think yes but everytime I see these reports they're losing money. Is it just poor management or what? Japanese companies seem to do pretty well for themselves not so much over here.

US? Yes, Activision Blizzard. Likely some smaller or private firms are, too. But of the major players, that's the only one.

Ubisoft is also making money, but they're French.
 

Link

The Autumn Wind
John Dunbar said:
So really, Take-Two has released over 25 games for the Wii!
Exactly! And it resulted in only 9% of revenue. No wonder third parties don't bother with the Wii.
 

TJ Spyke

Member
bmf said:
Wait? When did they release any games for the Wii?

Released in the November 2007-October 2008 period:

Carnival Games: Mini-Golf
Major League Baseball 2K8
NHL 2K9
Go, Diego Go!: Great Dinosaur Rescue
Dora the Explorer: Dora Saves the Snow Princess
MLB Power Pros 2008
Top Spin 3
Bully: Scholarship Edition
 

FrankT

Member
Wonder how much Bioshock PS3 ended up pushing for the quarter as that is the only exclusive I can think of for the period. Interesting they re-signed the Rockstar management, but not surprising.
 

Aselith

Member
Opiate said:
US? Yes, Activision Blizzard. Likely some smaller or private firms are, too. But of the major players, that's the only one.

Ubisoft is also making money, but they're French.

Sorry, I should have said western developers that's what I actually meant so we'll count Ubi. I thought Acti-Blizz reported a loss and explained it as merger costs though?
 

TJ Spyke

Member
Jtyettis said:
Wonder how much Bioshock PS3 ended up pushing for the quarter as that is the only exclusive I can think of for the period. Interesting they re-signed Rockstar, but not surprising.

They re-signed the Rockstar execs. They already owned the company, so Rockstar wouldn't be going anywhere unless T2 wanted to let them go (like Microsoft chose to let Bungie become independent).
 

FrankT

Member
TJ Spyke said:
They re-signed the Rockstar execs. They already owned the company, so Rockstar wouldn't be going anywhere unless T2 wanted to let them go (like Microsoft chose to let Bungie become independent).

That is what I meant, but I should have said Houser Bros and Co. Man the stock is getting hammered right now. I'm wondering if Bioshock 2 will actually make a 09 release with Mafia II.
 

Opiate

Member
Aselith said:
Sorry, I should have said western developers that's what I actually meant so we'll count Ubi. I thought Acti-Blizz reported a loss and explained it as merger costs though?

That is correct, they did, but that is the only quarter in the last 3+ years where they have lost money. And as you said, it occured at a time of merger, which is understandable. If these results are repeated for another 1-2 quarters, then we'll be talking about a genuine decline for them.

This would be comparable to taking the single quarter where Take 2 made money -- the quarter GTA4 was released -- and insisting that T2 is now clearly a money maker and doing well, even though they lost money for 14 quarters in a row before that, and have since returned to losing more money than they were before.
 

Aselith

Member
Opiate said:
That is correct, they did, but that is the only quarter in the last 3+ years where they have lost money. And as you said, it occured at a time of merger, which is understandable. If these results are repeated for another 1-2 quarters, then we'll be talking about a genuine decline for them.

This would be comparable to taking the single quarter where Take 2 made money -- the quarter GTA4 was released -- and insisting that T2 is now clearly a money maker and doing well, even though they lost money for 14 quarters in a row before that, and have since returned to losing more money than they were before.

Ah, so just for a quarter. I didn't realize that.
 

Regulus Tera

Romanes Eunt Domus
viciouskillersquirrel said:
What other IPs do they have other than GTA? Surely Bully or The Warriors did OK, right?

Over-reliance on one or two IPs is going the right direction towards collapse.

Hasn't stopped Square Enix!
 

TJ Spyke

Member
viciouskillersquirrel said:
What other IPs do they have other than GTA? Surely Bully or The Warriors did OK, right?

Over-reliance on one or two IPs is going the right direction towards collapse.

Carnival Games
Major League Baseball 2K
MLB Power Pros (they publish it in North America for Konami since T2 has the exclusive third party license for MLB)
Sid Meier's Civilization
NHL 2K
NBA 2K
Midnight Club

among others.
 

Alcibiades

Member
Just imagine if GTA4 had gotten a debut release on Wii (near identical as 360/PS3 with some graphical fidelity loss) as well, would that number still be 9% and would Take Two be struggling financially?

Better late than never if it is coming, but budget-conscious side projects like the DS game aren't gonna get it done (although it's a good start and will hopefully sell well).

The key lesson here is for GTA5 to be on Wii as with the same level of resources given to the 360 and PS3 versions. This doesn't mean they need to give up on mini-game collections or creative ideas for Wiimote use, it just means their biggest and best franchises need to be on the most popular platform so they have a massive audience to sell to.
 

Belgorim

Member
Alcibiades said:
The key lesson here is for GTA5 to be on Wii as with the same level of resources given to the 360 and PS3 versions.
My guess is this would probably sell horribly and be a gigantic loss.
 
TJ Spyke said:
Released in the November 2007-October 2008 period:

Carnival Games: Mini-Golf
Major League Baseball 2K8
NHL 2K9
Go, Diego Go!: Great Dinosaur Rescue
Dora the Explorer: Dora Saves the Snow Princess
MLB Power Pros 2008
Top Spin 3
Bully: Scholarship Edition
That accounted for 13% or their revenue? No wonder..... Other than the sports games, they've got two licensed shovelware games, one mini-game collection, and one port of a mildly successful last-gen game.

I'd like to see a further breakdown on the titles.
 

Link

The Autumn Wind
vanguardian1 said:
Then, in your opinion, why is GTA4 selling dramatically worse than it's predecessors?
Aside from having a smaller userbase to sell to, I'm guessing it's just franchise fatigue.
 

TJ Spyke

Member
vanguardian1 said:
Then, in your opinion, why is GTA4 selling dramatically worse than it's predecessors?

"Dramatically worse"? It's sold over 10 million copies as of August. GTA III has sold 14.5 million, VC 17.5 million, and SA 21.5 million. GTA IV got those 10 million in just 4 months.

bmf, those are just the games released in that 1 year period. They had released earlier games for the Wii.
 

FrankT

Member
Alcibiades said:
Just imagine if GTA4 had gotten a debut release on Wii (near identical as 360/PS3 with some graphical fidelity loss) as well, would that number still be 9% and would Take Two be struggling financially?

Better late than never if it is coming, but budget-conscious side projects like the DS game aren't gonna get it done (although it's a good start and will hopefully sell well).

The key lesson here is for GTA5 to be on Wii as with the same level of resources given to the 360 and PS3 versions. This doesn't mean they need to give up on mini-game collections or creative ideas for Wiimote use, it just means their biggest and best franchises need to be on the most popular platform so they have a massive audience to sell to.

After Sam Houser's comments on casual gaming and the Wii I'm not sure that's gonna happen although T2 could just have ported in house elsewhere. Financially, it would probably be a decent bet however.

TJ Spyke said:
"Dramatically worse"? It's sold over 10 million copies as of August. GTA III has sold 14.5 million, VC 17.5 million, and SA 21.5 million. GTA IV has only been out for 8 months though.

bmf, those are just the games released in that 1 year period. They had released earlier games for the Wii.

Any idea of what the install base was when those games hit?
 

[Nintex]

Member
I once read an article about Take Two, about what kind of mess it was and that GTA was their only succesfull IP. It seems that Midnight club bombed(again) and if they're still losing money despite record revenues there has to be something wrong.
 
The next year or so is going to be quite interesting, it's going to be like Survivor: Broke'd HD Business Model Edition. I cannot imagine so many companies continuing to use a business model that's slowly bleeding them and still survive by the end of this generation. Where would Ubisoft be without all of those shitty Horsez, Babiez, Imaginez games on the DS? Those games account for like 40% of their revenues, don't they? What kind of impact would that have on the content they're currently generating?

The current business model for HD games just seems like it's unsustainable.
 

Link

The Autumn Wind
Jtyettis said:
After Sam Houser's comments on casual gaming and the Wii I'm not sure that's gonna happen although T2 could just have ported in house elsewhere. Financially, it would probably be a decent bet however.
It's not gonna happen. I don't know what Alcibiades is smoking.
 

Sadist

Member
jaundicejuice said:
The next year or so is going to be quite interesting, it's going to be like Survivor: Broke'd HD Business Model Edition. I cannot imagine so many companies continuing to use a business model that's slowly bleeding them and still survive by the end of this generation. Where would Ubisoft be without all of those shitty Horsez, Babiez, Imaginez games on the DS? Those games account for like 40% of their revenues, don't they? What kind of impact would that have on the content they're currently generating?

The current business model for HD games just seems like it's unsustainable.
Rather broke then developing on the Wii seems to be the motto these days! Bad joke, I know. But the Wii doesn't seem to pique their interest.

I'd actually want a new Bully game on Wii. Loved the Wii version.
 
jaundicejuice said:
The current business model for HD games just seems like it's unsustainable.

Certainly getting harder, and companies are getting shaken out. Seems like a number of these pubs having problems have only a small % of their income from the Wii, is this because they have fewer titles on the platform or they aren't getting much in return from those titles?
 

poppabk

Member
Link said:
It's not gonna happen. I don't know what Alcibiades is smoking.
Yeah GTA4 for Wii with a 100 million dollar budget would have been gamings Heavens Gate. What would be more reasonable would be a GTA:xxxx game on Wii that is basically an extension of the GTAIII series. A budget in the region of $10 million with a decent advertising push and I think they could have had a winner. That ship may have sailed now that they have moved onto the GTA4 universe.
 
Some comments on the Wii from CEO Ben Feder:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=21581

"We believe we'll continue to benefit from the growing install base of the Nintendo Wii," said Feder. "Our relationship with Nintendo has never been stronger," he added, calling it a "great foundation on which to build."

"Even some of the M-rated content that we think is much more appropriate for the [Xbox] 360 or the PS3... we have to look at the Wii as a viable platform, because we can't ignore that install base," Feder said. "We just can't."
 

Link

The Autumn Wind
frankthurk said:
Certainly getting harder, and companies are getting shaken out. Seems like a number of these pubs having problems have only a small % of their income from the Wii, is this because they have fewer titles on the platform or they aren't getting much in return from those titles?
It's a combination of fewer titles and the fact that the titles are pretty much always crap.

poppabk said:
Yeah GTA4 for Wii with a 100 million dollar budget would have been gamings Heavens Gate. What would be more reasonable would be a GTA:xxxx game on Wii that is basically an extension of the GTAIII series. A budget in the region of $10 million with a decent advertising push and I think they could have had a winner. That ship may have sailed now that they have moved onto the GTA4 universe.
Yeah, that's never gonna happen either.
 

AstroLad

Hail to the KING baby
Would Nintendo ever let them do an open-world game with Miis if they toned down the violence a lot and just made it "comic violence" like Bully? I think that could be huuuuuge.
 

Rolf NB

Member
Platform breakdown Q1-Q4 said:
360: 39%
PS3: 34%
Wii: 9%
PS2: 8%
PSP: 5%
PC: 3%
DS/GBA: 2%
Platform breakdown Q4 said:
PS3: 35%
360: 28%
Wii: 13%
PS2: 8%
PSP: 7%
PC: 5%
DS/GBA: 4%
CNN money: Xbox 360 a sinking ship, software sales plummet; PS3 an anchor of stability.
 
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