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Team Ninja doesn't know the difference between hard and cheap
- Thread starter Jeff-DSA
- Start date
Shard said:
Not being able to save != cheap. Cheap implies unfairness. An enemy move that's difficult or impossible to avoid and does huge amounts of damage (or just kills you outright) when it hits, boss AI that ramps up to ridiculous levels when on the verge of death to cheat the player out of a victory - now those things are cheap.
A game that forces the player to survive several consecutive challenges without dying or saving may be hard for them. They may have to repeat that part of the game several times before they improve enough to get past it. But as challenging as it may be, that's not inherently unfair. Just like most NES games weren't cheap, despite many of them being unforgivingly tough by today's standards.
But you have to expect that from Tecmo, look at DOA3/Ultimate's boss. It not a boss in the sence of M.Bison where the character has better moves, it's just a cheezy, lazy way of ending the game.
And Ninja Gaiden isn't cheap. Why? Because even though I'm getting my ass handed to me by Alma2 in Ninja Gaiden Black I always come back for more. I know it's my fault, not the game's fault.
Now God Of War seems cheezy on god mode. Even the lowly skeletons do 1/3 damage and they're no real way of avoiding them -- you're bound to get hit when there's 10 on the screen.
And Ninja Gaiden isn't cheap. Why? Because even though I'm getting my ass handed to me by Alma2 in Ninja Gaiden Black I always come back for more. I know it's my fault, not the game's fault.
Now God Of War seems cheezy on god mode. Even the lowly skeletons do 1/3 damage and they're no real way of avoiding them -- you're bound to get hit when there's 10 on the screen.
Hello GAF! (First post ^^)
Cheap is an expression that intrigues me when used for a game, whatever the genre. It's a pretty subjective one, and I'm totally guilty of using it in the past, especially on fighting games; moreso against human opponents than AI...
One major example is CvSNK2, which I play with some uni buddies pretty frequently - I play as Kim a lot, and let out an almighty groan when I see our 'Hall Champion' pick Yamazaki. Over time, I've come to realise that his constant abuse of the serpent slash and ridiculous throwing priority are not necessarily 'cheap tactics', but just where I fail to meet his standard. Yamazaki is a veritable beast, and if I'm gonna be bouncin' off the walls the whole time then I deserve to get my ass slashed! I think the problem is that a person knows what they're doing when they use the same hideously effective move over and over again, whereas AI is just using patterns. Patterns which, as others have mentioned, can be read and countered.
I can understand the qualms people have with end bosses that use unfair 'rules' and such, but in gerenal, fast-paced action games such as NG shouldn't be labelled cheap on account of their (often insane) difficulty. Take the off-screen projectiles argument: is this to say that if you can't see an enemy, it shouldn't be able to harm you? Sounds kinda silly - if I were a real ninja (some day...) who could block bullets with his sword, and there was a guy with a gun a good few meters away, I'd bloody well be patient until I could let rip at close range!
Take away the ability to block, and yes, this pumelling of bullets might well fall into cheap territory. But hold up - there's no ability to block in something like CS. Does this mean getting shot while reloading is cheap? Probably not, it's just a part of gaming life. As someone stated before, there should always be at least one way to get round a seemingly unstoppable attack, or break a deadly pattern. If there is nothing that can ever be done, then by all means, it's Cheap.
Cheap is an expression that intrigues me when used for a game, whatever the genre. It's a pretty subjective one, and I'm totally guilty of using it in the past, especially on fighting games; moreso against human opponents than AI...
One major example is CvSNK2, which I play with some uni buddies pretty frequently - I play as Kim a lot, and let out an almighty groan when I see our 'Hall Champion' pick Yamazaki. Over time, I've come to realise that his constant abuse of the serpent slash and ridiculous throwing priority are not necessarily 'cheap tactics', but just where I fail to meet his standard. Yamazaki is a veritable beast, and if I'm gonna be bouncin' off the walls the whole time then I deserve to get my ass slashed! I think the problem is that a person knows what they're doing when they use the same hideously effective move over and over again, whereas AI is just using patterns. Patterns which, as others have mentioned, can be read and countered.
I can understand the qualms people have with end bosses that use unfair 'rules' and such, but in gerenal, fast-paced action games such as NG shouldn't be labelled cheap on account of their (often insane) difficulty. Take the off-screen projectiles argument: is this to say that if you can't see an enemy, it shouldn't be able to harm you? Sounds kinda silly - if I were a real ninja (some day...) who could block bullets with his sword, and there was a guy with a gun a good few meters away, I'd bloody well be patient until I could let rip at close range!
Take away the ability to block, and yes, this pumelling of bullets might well fall into cheap territory. But hold up - there's no ability to block in something like CS. Does this mean getting shot while reloading is cheap? Probably not, it's just a part of gaming life. As someone stated before, there should always be at least one way to get round a seemingly unstoppable attack, or break a deadly pattern. If there is nothing that can ever be done, then by all means, it's Cheap.
Are you kidding me? Your "rules" for bosses are completely arbitrary and can't even be applied to the game that established the fighting genre, Street Fighter 2 and M. Bison / Balrog. He was extremely overpowered, imbalanced, and absolutely broke the game when he was allowed to be picked in the championship addition (even after they toned him down for it).
skyfinch
Member
If this was the last in the DOA series, then so be it. After DOA4, I have no desire to play another DOA game, and this is coming from a huge DOA fan. The last boss is so fucking annoying, I basically can't even play the game anymore. Didn't even get the chance to unlock Helena.
I'd rather go another round with the Water boss in Kameo with that fat water canon character than another round with Super Shitsumi.
I'd rather go another round with the Water boss in Kameo with that fat water canon character than another round with Super Shitsumi.
chinmonster
Member
Gantz said:
Agreed.
Reilly said:
Nope. 'Bad camera' doesn't exist in Resident Evil 4, ever, and the controls are probably among the best I've ever experienced in a third-person action game. (Except for the inventory system, which, while frustrating, never caused me to lose the game.)
Red Blaster
Member
chinmonster said:
:lol
Nightmarecast25
Banned
Well, for me, everytime I beat Alpha was pure luck, I personally think no skilled fighter can beat her with pure skill, I think it all comes down to luck, I am an ace with Tina and Christie but seem to get owned by Alpha for a while before the luck sets in.
This morning I beat her with Kasumi on my first try but then went back through with Kasumi and got owned 12 times.
It's luck, pure luck.
This morning I beat her with Kasumi on my first try but then went back through with Kasumi and got owned 12 times.
It's luck, pure luck.
Warm Machine
Member
The red demons in ghosts and goblins almost define cheap
Demigod Mac
Member
Heh, no way. Genra was far, far, far easier than Alpha.
Hell, Genra was EASY, even on Very Hard.
Hell, Genra was EASY, even on Very Hard.
I half expect there to be a Dead or Alive 4 extreme released with the easy mode put back in and more costumes to unlock. They'll also make it so the boss actually follows this difficulty- dunno about you guys but I've noticed Alpha 152 is no harder on very hard then she is on normal.
The easy difficulty does exist in this game though, play survival mode and the first few guys you fight will just stand there and take your abuse like you may have been used to in past doa games.
I might also add that I managed to pull off a RAIJIN in sparring mode. The trick is to throw a punch and do the 360 during that punch animation , that'll almost gauruntee you the kick into the air. After that it's a matter practicing the other 2 parts, they look daunting and all but if you can get them input within the time frame it'll work. Even with a couple small mistakes.
Unfortunatly I still have plenty of stuff to unlock, I expected doing the initial 16 characters in sparring would unlock the tatami room but it seems I have to do the movelists for all the unlockable characters as well, and I still have to get tengu.
The easy difficulty does exist in this game though, play survival mode and the first few guys you fight will just stand there and take your abuse like you may have been used to in past doa games.
I might also add that I managed to pull off a RAIJIN in sparring mode. The trick is to throw a punch and do the 360 during that punch animation , that'll almost gauruntee you the kick into the air. After that it's a matter practicing the other 2 parts, they look daunting and all but if you can get them input within the time frame it'll work. Even with a couple small mistakes.
Unfortunatly I still have plenty of stuff to unlock, I expected doing the initial 16 characters in sparring would unlock the tatami room but it seems I have to do the movelists for all the unlockable characters as well, and I still have to get tengu.
Warm Machine said:
No no no, all wrong. If you know how to deal with them you can beat them 100% of the time, thus they are not cheap. The house on level two with the "mace throwers"^H^H^H^"rancid ansu grease flinging monkeys" and crows, however is. No matter what your strategy is, your chances of survial is never better then ~20% or so. This due to the random chance of one of the "monkeys" showing up behind you a split second to early on the top floor when you're wacking the other one that needs to be taken care of.
Warm Machine
Member
Eric_S said:
I was never able to figure out the pattern for the red devils. Same with that skelton dragon thing that isn't locked to any kind of vertical movement that appears later in the game. Too low to attack to long to jump over. Ghouls and Ghosts and Super Ghouls and Ghosts was all pattern and reasonable random encounters though so they were nice games to play.
actually, when you learn the moves with some characters the game is not that hard on normal..
one thing though: never, NEVER use the same move twice in a row against the AI.. they WILL counter it every time..
end boss is cheap in a way, but not that hard either as long as you use a lot of running/long distance attacks just after she teleports.. close combat sludgefest against alpha you will lose every time.
one thing though: never, NEVER use the same move twice in a row against the AI.. they WILL counter it every time..
end boss is cheap in a way, but not that hard either as long as you use a lot of running/long distance attacks just after she teleports.. close combat sludgefest against alpha you will lose every time.
DCharlie
And even i am moderately surprised
it's the teleport into the neck breaking move that seems to take anything from 50-80% of your life that gets me.
And it will always get cracked out as you are laying down the smack.
Also - what started to annoy me was the length of two or three moves.
The neck snap is one, the take down, with the punches to the head are another.
Okay, i know it's only 3 or so seconds but it's like.. "uh... okay, i know i'm going to be losing a lot of heath... can we get on with this please?"
And it will always get cracked out as you are laying down the smack.
Also - what started to annoy me was the length of two or three moves.
The neck snap is one, the take down, with the punches to the head are another.
Okay, i know it's only 3 or so seconds but it's like.. "uh... okay, i know i'm going to be losing a lot of heath... can we get on with this please?"
Silverbolt
Member
Anyone else suffer from high blood pressure against some of the cheesy doa4 AI? I have a B online and yet I still sometimes spend 15-20 minutes on Alpha. I love how every move of hers takes priority over yours and how she can high counter you to hell without you ever doing a high attack. Well, online mode rocks above all else, planning to just buy all the costumes with zack dollars.
itsinmyveins
Gets to pilot the crappy patrol labors
Yes, the game can be really fuckin' cheap sometimes. And yes, the last boss is a headache with certain characters. The fact that the prick can teleport herself multiple times within a couple of second to both avoid and the retaliate without you even standing a chance is enough. I often have to rely on cheap tactics to beat her, and honestly - that's no fun way to play a game.
Warm Machine
Member
karasu said:
This is fine if the rules that govern you and the enemies remain the same. If they can come at you from some angle that you cannot fire on then it is aggravating. Patterns are good things though, I just dont like the patterns where by you can ONLY give the creature damage at select times. Every bullet and every sword hit should account for something. The Metal Gear games are the worst for the whole pattern thing.
Spiderjericho
Member
I started playing this game this week and was like wtf?
I preface by saying I'm not a DOA expert, but...
How could there not be an easy difficulty? Don't we try to cater to every gamer, Itagaki?
And then the last boss is ridiculous. The three things that annoy me the most about her is the throw where she launches a projectile and takes 50% of your health, the consistent 10 hit combos she'll land, which will do 50% damage and that retarded counter.
In fact, one of the complaints I always had about DOA was the way people could counter you in the middle of a ground combo (even if it started out staggered). The only 100% guarantee it seems is to launch them in the air.
I honestly felt like going back to Tekken 5. Oh well.
I do hope Tecmo does release booster packs like Ninja Gaiden though.
I preface by saying I'm not a DOA expert, but...
How could there not be an easy difficulty? Don't we try to cater to every gamer, Itagaki?
And then the last boss is ridiculous. The three things that annoy me the most about her is the throw where she launches a projectile and takes 50% of your health, the consistent 10 hit combos she'll land, which will do 50% damage and that retarded counter.
In fact, one of the complaints I always had about DOA was the way people could counter you in the middle of a ground combo (even if it started out staggered). The only 100% guarantee it seems is to launch them in the air.
I honestly felt like going back to Tekken 5. Oh well.
I do hope Tecmo does release booster packs like Ninja Gaiden though.
DCharlie
And even i am moderately surprised
you know what, i said exactly the same when i first got this game.
I was frustrated, i wasn't having any fun what so ever. I couldn't just drop the difficulty and timer and unlock everything and it pissed me off.
However, BECAUSE i couldn't drop the difficulty, i actually started reading up a bit and learning a few little bits more that i would have if i just cheezo'ed my way to all the characters. And surprise, surprise - i got better! I even got to start to like the game a lot. I still HATE Alpha, but the rest of the game is pretty sweet now.
This is something i'd have missed out with with an easy mode. In the end, i'm happy that the normal difficulty is the lowest because if it wasn't i'd have been done with the game in about 2 hours and would never have played it again.
Now i've completed it with everyone, i'll start working on the costumes and playing some online (more thashings from Reno- !)
Musashi Wins!
FLAWLESS VICTOLY!
This isn't close to one of the cheesiest bosses I've seen in fighting games. Or even the DOA series. Great thread beside that.
Well i have to say you try playing kasumi clone for 10 minutes and not get hit and you cant land one hit on her, then she lands a hit and ends your 10 minutes of dicking around with her. YEAH i get the point you bitch but dont rub it in. It took me another hour before i was able to beat her.
I dont bitch usually about fighting games god knows i've seen cheaper bosses. But this bitch is one of the worst. Might as well button mash with her, thats how i ended up beating her. I wasnt even looking at the screen anymore.
To answer a question or two i've beaten DOA4 already i helped my girl beat all the characters. I was able to beat the clone pretty easily, but once i get my Xbox and i get the game i'm faced with SUPER BITCH CLONE. Granted she wasnt easy when i played for my gf but still shit.
On a side note i'm thinking of that fighting game with big Dinosaurs it had this raptor that was a bitch to beat when i was a kid. I poped in 20 bucks just to beat that thing one day. I felt like king. And right after i beat it i was defeated. But i won a shit load of prizes that day so its all good. Damn those days when we were given stuff for being good at arcades.
I dont bitch usually about fighting games god knows i've seen cheaper bosses. But this bitch is one of the worst. Might as well button mash with her, thats how i ended up beating her. I wasnt even looking at the screen anymore.
To answer a question or two i've beaten DOA4 already i helped my girl beat all the characters. I was able to beat the clone pretty easily, but once i get my Xbox and i get the game i'm faced with SUPER BITCH CLONE. Granted she wasnt easy when i played for my gf but still shit.
On a side note i'm thinking of that fighting game with big Dinosaurs it had this raptor that was a bitch to beat when i was a kid. I poped in 20 bucks just to beat that thing one day. I felt like king. And right after i beat it i was defeated. But i won a shit load of prizes that day so its all good. Damn those days when we were given stuff for being good at arcades.
Red Scarlet
Member
Primal Rage?
