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Opinion Hardware Tech Analysis And The Dangers Of Conflation, Obfuscation, & Being Disingenuous, "Featuring" Innocenceii

Aug 28, 2019
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Okay, so we can all agree that Halo Infinite is a bit of a shit-show at the current moment. Lukewarm reveal reception, an indefinite delay into 2021, HUGE problems at 343i (likely down to upper management sucking ass), and cross-gen with XBO apparently actually holding back next-gen development after all, all being factors into it. We can all agree to this.

With that said...


...videos like this...are unacceptable.

So what's wrong with this video? Well for starters, his entire argument hinges on the idea that the biggest factor why Halo Infinite looked the way it did is because of...the SSD? One thing I ask of tech analysts is to do some research; apparently Halo Infinite was running on a mid-tier PC made for dev tools. That of course doesn't excuse the poor showing, but anyone doing that research (it doesn't take a lot of time to even find the quote) and sees that quote would assume that such a PC probably doesn't have the full (perhaps even partial) XvA implementation the Series X will have.

Another issue with this video is the creator continues saying that MS have not gone as in-depth on their SSD I/O as Sony, which is true...but again, you're a tech analyst, and you're making a public video that you know will be taken as fact by most who watch so....why not put in a bit of effort to see that they have a Hot Chips presentation just 3 days away where they will most likely delve into that very thing (among other hardware features)? Yes we can extrapolate from what we know about the setup so far if hypothetical examples like R&C could run on the hardware, but I'm just wondering....why would you use the shit show of Halo Infinite's current situation as a jumping-off point to ask this question in the first place?

Since people were already asking such a question after the game's showing in June, it kind of stands to reason the only reason this creator is asking it again is to do confirmation bias. To use Halo Infinite as an example that the Series X, in fact, cannot run a game like R&C due to the SSD. But as he literally says earlier in the video, we have not much concrete info on XvA's performance, and due to this we can't give a definitive answer. Now if his answer hinged more on the idea of team talent/management, i.e Insomniac having a better work culture and better management at the top level whereas 343i does not, then that would be fair game because 343i have embarrassed themselves yet again in that department. But seeing that this guy's a game tech analyst, that's obviously not the angle they would be focusing the question on now is it?

So why am I focusing on Innocenceii in particular? Because he's already done disingenuous next-gen tech "analysis" in several prior videos, and has used questionable visual deception in his presentations and omission of key information that they could not be bothered to re-edit in the video proper. They do the same things in this video I've linked, in fact. When I go to see a tech analysis, especially from someone who professes to be knowledgeable in a given field (I believe this guy's claim is that he's a game engine dev?), I expect them to, A) Do their research (official information, patent diving, research on various technological implementations etc.), and B) Present their information as neutrally as possible. I also expect them to base their argument/point of discussion on valid grounds that at least make some sense.

Innocenceii has failed on all of these points, for a good period of time, so it's a bit worrying when many people who want an actual tech perspective on these systems are going to such a compromised source. Granted, he's not the only such person in this regard and this kind of thing also happens with some Xbox names as well (DealerGaming, Dee Batch, MadZ etc.), but most of them don't profess to being technical experts in the field of game development to begin with. They're moreso enthusiasts, like many of us here on this forum. I get the feeling some of the people who do these types of video analysis hide under the guise of a label that carries some sort of authority which in turn intimidates people from questioning them, but that of course also allows them to get away with false narratives and disingenuous information that is rarely challenged.

These sort of people should be held responsible for this type of behavior, because there's very few neutral sources in gaming that discuss gaming tech honestly. My best sources for that have been either here on this forum, maybe a handful of people on Reeee, most of the Beyond 3D forums and that's...just about it. Of course there's also the official tech videos companies like Microsoft and Sony post on various channels that detail aspects of their technologies, but you will never get direct comparisons to competitor offerings in those, that leaves the homework on the viewer to link things together (and most don't bother to do that).

Anyway, that's about it, this was more an "ethics of game tech discussion" kind of thing more than anything else. But has anyone else felt similar watching some of these tech analysis vids from various channels of otherwise very technically knowledgeable people? Doesn't matter if they sway PlayStation, Xbox, PC or even Nintendo; like I said all camps have some fellows who do this kind of thing. But I focus moreso on the ones who very clearly state their positions of authority as engineers, game devs etc. (take Cherno for example; tbh I actually kinda like their content and haven't seen them do the sort of things I notice guys like Innocenceii doing), because again I feel those who carry those sort of badges also carry a position of assumed authority that cuts away at open and honest critique of their analysis and opinion.
 

onQ123

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Told y'all


Yet they haven't showed anything that show Xbox Series X advantage over PS5 in fact most people are wondering if Xbox Series X will match PS5 lol
 

sircaw

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will go and watch this now, i smell Drama.

I watched it and not sure what he said wrong really. He is talking about rachet and clank specifically and sony's ssd which we know is far faster than Microsofts.

did he really say anything bad. ? He said he was speculating with Theory. He could be right, he could be wrong.
 
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claiming Halo Infinite's graphics have anything to do with SSD speeds is indeed either lying through their teeth or fucking braindead 🤣

It's disingenuous and a strawman correlation. He might be one of those guys who thinks simply having an SSD means no pop-in, but that isn't true. Scale of game visuals will increase with the performance gains of new hardware, I won't even be surprised if load times are still a thing especially later into the generation.

In any case, some simple research on his part would've given the answers he actually needed, but he ignores that to go with the answers that will feed his preexisting bias. It's a lazy way of discussing these things and reeks of the bad journalism MSM does all the time with politics.

will go and watch this now, i smell Drama

Meh, not really xD. It's a personal analysis and he's already done stuff like this months earlier so the jumps they make in logic isn't surprising. I'm not saying the guy has NO knowledge; his baseline tech understanding on SSDs and SSD I/O is pretty good. But that's very baseline stuff in general and it doesn't really support his conclusions, because the way he discusses them makes it seem like Series X has no concept of things like data check-in or look-up tables or etc., when there's literal patents for things like FlashMap which address all of these things and has very sufficient answers for them.

The question would be to what extent are technologies like FlashMap being incorporated into XvA, and we should hopefully find out in a few days. But the fact guys like this Youtuber can't even bother to find this info on their own (when other people have already found it and discussed it in length) is embarrassing on his part.
 
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01011001

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It's disingenuous and a strawman correlation. He might be one of those guys who thinks simply having an SSD means no pop-in, but that isn't true. Scale of game visuals will increase with the performance gains of new hardware, I won't even be surprised if load times are still a thing especially later into the generation.

In any case, some simple research on his part would've given the answers he actually needed, but he ignores that to go with the answers that will feed his preexisting bias. It's a lazy way of discussing these things and reeks of the bad journalism MSM does all the time with politics.

it really seems that many people think that the GPU can just render everything the SSD throws at it 🙃

just throw around a bunch of transparency effects, I mean the SSD can load them all! so the console will of course be able to just draw them all! DraWIng iS eaSy rIGhT?

I think after the UE5 demo people got the idea that every engine will suddenly start to work exactly like nanite too. and nantie of course is also infallible and will always look like a CGI movie 🤣
 
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Lol what kind of bullshit is this? You had me going for a moment there.

That's what MS and 343i said :S. Regardless, it was indeed on a PC, and we already know there are aspects of XvA that won't be on PC until next year at earliest, things Series X proper would rely on. He took none of that into considration.

Any other YouTuber you want to write a passionate defence dissertation of how they are wrong in your opinion???

Sorry I like having honest discussions on next-gen tech and hold people accountable for being dishonest :(
 

onQ123

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claiming Halo Infinite's graphics have anything to do with SSD speeds is indeed either lying through their teeth or fucking braindead 🤣

Actually it does because of the 16GB of RAM in the new consoles & Xbox One X had 12GB of RAM so developers making games across Xbox One , Xbox One X & Xbox Series X will have to get used to memory management that will work out the best for all the Xboxes



 

Thirty7ven

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That's what MS and 343i said :S. Regardless, it was indeed on a PC, and we already know there are aspects of XvA that won't be on PC until next year at earliest, things Series X proper would rely on. He took none of that into considration.

All I can find is that it was running on a PC representative of XSX gameplay, specs similar to XSX.

You talk about research and come out with something like that? “Some mid tier PC”? And XVA will be the saving grace?

Come on man.
 

JonnyMP3

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That's what MS and 343i said :S. Regardless, it was indeed on a PC, and we already know there are aspects of XvA that won't be on PC until next year at earliest, things Series X proper would rely on. He took none of that into considration.



Sorry I like having honest discussions on next-gen tech and hold people accountable for being dishonest :(
But all he's doing is 'theorising'
He's asking the question 'Could the XSX run Rachet and Crank?' and then discussing probable cans and can'ts.
Unlike some other YouTubers talking about their insiders or sources and rumours... He's theorising on stuff. Like how DF theorises on the next gen machines based on PC counterparts.
He even says there's no solid information from Microsoft and that this is all just "Speculation"
If YouTubers aren't allowed to speculate on potential stuff that's going to be released, most of them wouldn't even have a channel!
 

Rob_27

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I'm sure there is a title out there not shown yet on both xbox and playstation that will shut everyone up.

We could finally say wow now that's next gen and its on both platforms. So we can be happy that both systems are very capable.

But of course someone will find something else to criticise.
 

DaGwaphics

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The video does appear to connect a lot of dots that don't seem related.

I had hoped that they would make two versions of Halo, a current-gen and a next-gen release (like FH2 and RoTTR). It's clear they didn't do that, so the game isn't limited by the XSX SSD but by the X1 HDD.

In some ways this type of gossip is great for Xbox. When real H2H situations are available, one side will be pleasantly surprised while the other will be disappointed if third-party software basically looks the same on both.
 
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All I can find is that it was running on a PC representative of XSX gameplay, specs similar to XSX.

You talk about research and come out with something like that? “Some mid tier PC”? And XVA will be the saving grace?

Come on man.

Uh, read it again? I said that's what MS and 343i said. At the very least, I heard that from people like Alanah Pearce who seemingly had contact with people at 343i.

Where did I say or insinuate XvA would be a "saving grace"? I don't think Series X is in such a situation tech-wise relating to SSD I/O where it needs a "saving grace" (as if to imply it is dire at moment), but we for 100% fact cannot say that XvA does nothing for the system in that department. It obviously does, we just need more of a deep dive.

Remember when everyone kept saying "paper specs don't mean everything" when talking about the Github leak for PS5 and Series X? That same mentality applies here. No one's insinuating XvA is oging to "close the gap" or surpass PS5's SSD I/O, however it's very possible that gap is much smaller than what paper specs provide. There's enough tidbits from engineers on the team and patents alone that suggest as such, particularly in areas such as low latency for inter-frame data streaming.

But again, we need more information. That's hopefully something to come in the next few days. If at that point those of us speculating on XvA being that much of a gap-cutter are wrong, I at least will openly admit as such and adjust my speculation accordingly. But at least I'm giving them benefit of the doubt and room to hit those targets, unlike the person who made this video.

But all he's doing is 'theorising'
He's asking the question 'Could the XSX run Rachet and Crank?' and then discussing probable cans and can'ts.
Unlike some other YouTubers talking about their insiders or sources and rumours... He's theorising on stuff. Like how DF theorises on the next gen machines based on PC counterparts.
He even says there's no solid information from Microsoft and that this is all just "Speculation"
If YouTubers aren't allowed to speculate on potential stuff that's going to be released, most of them wouldn't even have a channel!

You can do speculation a right and wrong way, though. Maybe I put too much belief into these Youtube tech analyzers to do the level of researching those of us who discuss these systems on forums regularly do.

Still though, it's not a tall order to ask, and the problem with skipping out on that research for an opinion you're publicly presenting, is that said opinion is open to any and all criticism, including this one. He's "speculating" under the guise of some assumed level of knowledgeable authority, that's where my issue comes in. If these sort of analysts weren't caping behind titles of 'engineer' or 'engine dev' or whatever (something that's obviously done to present a title conveying some type of authority on the discussion beyond what most of the people watching/listening would have), I wouldn't critique their analysis to this degree.

Just drop the title and theatrics surrounding it and speculate all you want, either right or wrong. But with putting those kind of titles first and foremost, they are going to influence viewers to assume their speculation is correct even if it's actually wrong, and that's irresponsible.

Nope the video is well thought out.

He only conveys baseline concepts decently but the foundation of his argument is shaky. His conclusions make no sense considering there's not enough data to draw such conclusions, and he uses a LOT of assumptions that are strawman in nature.

It's a mediocre analysis/speculation, and that's being nice.
 
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Mr Moose

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Not buying that mid-tier PC bit.

The legendary Halo series returns with the most expansive Master Chief story yet. Enjoy a first-look at Halo Infinite campaign gameplay, captured real-time and representative of the experience on Xbox Series X running at 60FPS and up to 4K resolution.

 

onQ123

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By the way there is a reason why Digital Foundry is on a campaign to drop Xbox One versions of games now, because games will need to use the SSD to move data in & out of memory to make up for the 16GB of RAM & making cross gen games complicate things.
 

sircaw

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Okay, so we can all agree that Halo Infinite is a bit of a shit-show at the current moment. Lukewarm reveal reception, an indefinite delay into 2021, HUGE problems at 343i (likely down to upper management sucking ass), and cross-gen with XBO apparently actually holding back next-gen development after all, all being factors into it. We can all agree to this.

With that said...


...videos like this...are unacceptable.

So what's wrong with this video? Well for starters, his entire argument hinges on the idea that the biggest factor why Halo Infinite looked the way it did is because of...the SSD? One thing I ask of tech analysts is to do some research; apparently Halo Infinite was running on a mid-tier PC made for dev tools. That of course doesn't excuse the poor showing, but anyone doing that research (it doesn't take a lot of time to even find the quote) and sees that quote would assume that such a PC probably doesn't have the full (perhaps even partial) XvA implementation the Series X will have.

Another issue with this video is the creator continues saying that MS have not gone as in-depth on their SSD I/O as Sony, which is true...but again, you're a tech analyst, and you're making a public video that you know will be taken as fact by most who watch so....why not put in a bit of effort to see that they have a Hot Chips presentation just 3 days away where they will most likely delve into that very thing (among other hardware features)? Yes we can extrapolate from what we know about the setup so far if hypothetical examples like R&C could run on the hardware, but I'm just wondering....why would you use the shit show of Halo Infinite's current situation as a jumping-off point to ask this question in the first place?

Since people were already asking such a question after the game's showing in June, it kind of stands to reason the only reason this creator is asking it again is to do confirmation bias. To use Halo Infinite as an example that the Series X, in fact, cannot run a game like R&C due to the SSD. But as he literally says earlier in the video, we have not much concrete info on XvA's performance, and due to this we can't give a definitive answer. Now if his answer hinged more on the idea of team talent/management, i.e Insomniac having a better work culture and better management at the top level whereas 343i does not, then that would be fair game because 343i have embarrassed themselves yet again in that department. But seeing that this guy's a game tech analyst, that's obviously not the angle they would be focusing the question on now is it?

So why am I focusing on Innocenceii in particular? Because he's already done disingenuous next-gen tech "analysis" in several prior videos, and has used questionable visual deception in his presentations and omission of key information that they could not be bothered to re-edit in the video proper. They do the same things in this video I've linked, in fact. When I go to see a tech analysis, especially from someone who professes to be knowledgeable in a given field (I believe this guy's claim is that he's a game engine dev?), I expect them to, A) Do their research (official information, patent diving, research on various technological implementations etc.), and B) Present their information as neutrally as possible. I also expect them to base their argument/point of discussion on valid grounds that at least make some sense.

Innocenceii has failed on all of these points, for a good period of time, so it's a bit worrying when many people who want an actual tech perspective on these systems are going to such a compromised source. Granted, he's not the only such person in this regard and this kind of thing also happens with some Xbox names as well (DealerGaming, Dee Batch, MadZ etc.), but most of them don't profess to being technical experts in the field of game development to begin with. They're moreso enthusiasts, like many of us here on this forum. I get the feeling some of the people who do these types of video analysis hide under the guise of a label that carries some sort of authority which in turn intimidates people from questioning them, but that of course also allows them to get away with false narratives and disingenuous information that is rarely challenged.

These sort of people should be held responsible for this type of behavior, because there's very few neutral sources in gaming that discuss gaming tech honestly. My best sources for that have been either here on this forum, maybe a handful of people on Reeee, most of the Beyond 3D forums and that's...just about it. Of course there's also the official tech videos companies like Microsoft and Sony post on various channels that detail aspects of their technologies, but you will never get direct comparisons to competitor offerings in those, that leaves the homework on the viewer to link things together (and most don't bother to do that).

Anyway, that's about it, this was more an "ethics of game tech discussion" kind of thing more than anything else. But has anyone else felt similar watching some of these tech analysis vids from various channels of otherwise very technically knowledgeable people? Doesn't matter if they sway PlayStation, Xbox, PC or even Nintendo; like I said all camps have some fellows who do this kind of thing. But I focus moreso on the ones who very clearly state their positions of authority as engineers, game devs etc. (take Cherno for example; tbh I actually kinda like their content and haven't seen them do the sort of things I notice guys like Innocenceii doing), because again I feel those who carry those sort of badges also carry a position of assumed authority that cuts away at open and honest critique of their analysis and opinion.

I watched his video, i will confess i am not a technical person.

Can you explain to me what was exactly wrong with his reasoning in his video, i mean can u mention exact points about the Rachet and clank bit that are misleading.


Is it not similar to the unreal engine 5 demo, where that was specifically designed for sony, yes the xbox will be able to run unreal engine nps but not that particular demo that sony did. Even Sweeny said it was not possible without the Ps5 ssd. There would have to be adjustments or sacrifices. Is that not the same thing here as well..
 

MrFunSocks

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All this commotion over an Xbox one game that can play via backwards compatibility on the series X. It would be hilarious if it wasn’t so sad how bad it has made almost the entire fan base look.
 

GODbody

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His editing style is pretty unique and interesting but, he wears his bias quite proudly. The last video I watched of his was a 20 min rant video he made about a 1 sentence Jason Ronald quote about teraflops not mattering or something. He likes to leave out key details or completely misrepresent data when he's doing comparisons. Here's a good example from the teraflops don't matter video he made


Very disingenuous slide as neither of those specs match for either system but he uses it to prop up his arguement. I'll have to check out this video for a good laugh.
 

onQ123

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He only conveys baseline concepts decently but the foundation of his argument is shaky. His conclusions make no sense considering there's not enough data to draw such conclusions, and he uses a LOT of assumptions that are strawman in nature.

It's a mediocre analysis/speculation, and that's being nice.


I'll make it simple for you it's the same thing I been telling people for over a year about SSD/ faster I/O PS5 & Xbox Series X only made a small upgrade in system RAM but because of the fast SSD that small upgrade is actually a big upgrade because it can be used for a steady stream of data instead of a small pool of data.


See the threads that I was posting before we knew anything about PS5 SSD & the ones I made after not much changed but people ignoring it & trying to brush it off as just fanboy talk.

PS5 can load higher quality assets for any giving moment on the screen because of the fast I/O that can move that data in & out of main RAM really fast.


Xbox Series X will also use the SSD to make up for the smaller upgrade in RAM but they will have to find a good balance for games that are going to have to also run on Xbox One / One X & PC.
 

GODbody

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His editing style is pretty unique and interesting but, he wears his bias quite proudly. The last video I watched of his was a 20 min rant video he made about a 1 sentence Jason Ronald quote about teraflops not mattering or something. He likes to leave out key details or completely misrepresent data when he's doing comparisons. Here's a good example from the teraflops don't matter video he made


Very disingenuous slide as neither of those specs match for either system but he uses it to prop up his arguement. I'll have to check out this video for a good laugh.

So I finished that video...



He states that the Series X speed isn't sustained and the PS5's SSD is sustained...

Well the Series X 2.4 GB/s of raw and 4.8 GB/s of compressed speed is already confirmed in multiple articles to be the sustained level of performance.

On the other hand the PS5 has stated that their SSD speeds are 5.5 GB/s of raw speed and 8-9 GB/s of compressed speed. The varying amount of compressed speed makes me think that the PS5 isn't garunteed to sustatain that 5.5 GB/s of raw speed otherwise they would have 11 GB/s of compressed speed and not a varying amount, assuming a 2:1 compression ratio. So I think that would put the PS5 at around 4-4.5 GB/s per second of sustained throughput in real world performance scenarios. We still need confirmation on the sustained performance of the SSD.

This video was pretty trash though. He's using the Series X name to compare the PS5 SSD to a Samsung SSD. He also gives very false information regarding the Series X's SSD.
 
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I watched his video, i will confess i am not a technical person.

Can you explain to me what was exactly wrong with his reasoning in his video, i mean can u mention exact points about the Rachet and clank bit that are misleading.


Is it not similar to the unreal engine 5 demo, where that was specifically designed for sony, yes the xbox will be able to run unreal engine nps but not that particular demo that sony did. Even Sweeny said it was not possible without the Ps5 ssd. There would have to be adjustments or sacrifices. Is that not the same thing here as well..

This isn't the way he framed his argument. His POV was to suggest the Series X could not run the game at all, due to (in his opinion) big, glaring "flaws" in its SSD I/O that PS5 seemingly doesn't have. Yet he bases that on nothing but incomplete data, paper specs, and reaffirmed bias formed through stringing together strawmans using Halo Infinite as the cornerstone of his comparative analysis (or to say, the thing he is hinging his bets on to be indicative of wider SSD I/O issues to therefore validate his argument).

His analysis style is disingenuous because while he stays factual with things related to "big concept" tech stuff like the raw and compressed bandwidth figures, and general concepts like check-in, the way he presents this is mixed with either disinformation, obfuscation/omission of details, or both. Look at the graphic in G GODbody 's second post (the one with the green bars); he is assuming Series X has all of the same I/O features of PC systems, and completely ignores all of the specific I/O features MS have mentioned, and others various patents point towards.

That graphic piggybacks off of similar disingenuous speculation I've seen in other Youtube video comments and videos in general, that use a lot of bad-faith assumptions on behalf of Series X (such as assuming two priority levels, or 3-channel or even 2-channel connects, supposedly higher overhead (both systems are using PCIe 4.0 which has 128b/130b encoding), etc.). That's not productive towards having honest technological discussion.

Not buying that mid-tier PC bit.




TBF Halo Infinite is not that big of a looker, you can probably get those visuals in 40K 60 FPS on a "mid tier" PC.

I'll make it simple for you it's the same thing I been telling people for over a year about SSD/ faster I/O PS5 & Xbox Series X only made a small upgrade in system RAM but because of the fast SSD that small upgrade is actually a big upgrade because it can be used for a steady stream of data instead of a small pool of data.


See the threads that I was posting before we knew anything about PS5 SSD & the ones I made after not much changed but people ignoring it & trying to brush it off as just fanboy talk.

PS5 can load higher quality assets for any giving moment on the screen because of the fast I/O that can move that data in & out of main RAM really fast.


Xbox Series X will also use the SSD to make up for the smaller upgrade in RAM but they will have to find a good balance for games that are going to have to also run on Xbox One / One X & PC.

Okay but you're hardly the only person who's been discussing this very thing? There's nothing to grab placing your POV on this on a pedestal above everyone else's. Maybe instead of assuming people are ignoring it or brushing it off, just maybe, some of us have done our own research and arrived at conclusions that nullify or come at odds with your own?

The rest of your post is saying nothing particularly unique whatsoever; what a lot of us have been speculating on is exactly how much slower MS's approach is to Sony's in this area. The people who want to insist on the widest gap possible only cling to the paper specs (because it's convenient for them in this case); those of us who insist it will be smaller take the same approach as those who discuss in favor of PS5's GPU (for example) take: the paper specs not 100% telling everything there is to know.

The fact this kind of thing is tolerated in one instance at large but shunned by large in another instance is hypocritical when the reasoning in both cases is similarly sound.

All this commotion over an Xbox one game that can play via backwards compatibility on the series X. It would be hilarious if it wasn’t so sad how bad it has made almost the entire fan base look.

Take off the fanboy goggles for a second and realize this is about ethics of technology speculation and discussion within a community.

Regardless of how lukewarm Halo Infinite was visually, you don't use that as a jump-off point to string together unrelated points into speculating it has to do with bad SSD I/O, when we have plenty of other answers available (crappy dev environment, bad upper management, XBO being a hinderance, XBO being the base system for dev, troubled development cycle including switching of engines mid-way through etc.) that answer the question.

Sometimes Occam's Razor actually does provide the correct answer.

So I finished that video...



He states that the Series X speed isn't sustained and the PS5's SSD is sustained...

Well the Series X 2.4 GB/s of raw and 4.8 GB/s of compressed speed is already confirmed in multiple articles to be the sustained level of performance.

On the other hand the PS5 has stated that their SSD speeds are 5.5 GB/s of raw speed and 8-9 GB/s of compressed speed. The varying amount of compressed speed makes me think that the PS5 isn't garunteed to sustatain that 5.5 GB/s of raw speed otherwise they would have 11 GB/s of compressed speed and not a varying amount, assuming a 2:1 compression ratio. So I think that would put the PS5 at around 4-4.5 GB/s per second of sustained throughput in real world performance scenarios. We still need confirmation on the sustained performance of the SSD.

This video was pretty trash though. He's using the Series X name to compare the PS5 SSD to a Samsung SSD. He also gives very false information regarding the Series X's SSD.

I think PS5's thing has more to do with Oodle tech in particular not exactly providing a 2:1 ratio. I think it's something more like 1.6:1 or so for lossless compression. FWIW they did some tests (I found results on B3D) showing peak compression rate of 3.99:1 lossy compression using Kraken + RDO 40 (I think), which is 21.945 GB/s...pretty close to the 22 GB/s claim. The question still is though what data would compress particularly well up to that rate...

But as to the vid tho, yeah, it's not good. If he were more neutral and didn't let his preferences turn into biases slanting his talking points into using false information or strawmans, the content would be better. As-is, not worth it.
 

sircaw

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This isn't the way he framed his argument. His POV was to suggest the Series X could not run the game at all, due to (in his opinion) big, glaring "flaws" in its SSD I/O that PS5 seemingly doesn't have. Yet he bases that on nothing but incomplete data, paper specs, and reaffirmed bias formed through stringing together strawmans using Halo Infinite as the cornerstone of his comparative analysis (or to say, the thing he is hinging his bets on to be indicative of wider SSD I/O issues to therefore validate his argument).

His analysis style is disingenuous because while he stays factual with things related to "big concept" tech stuff like the raw and compressed bandwidth figures, and general concepts like check-in, the way he presents this is mixed with either disinformation, obfuscation/omission of details, or both. Look at the graphic in G GODbody 's second post (the one with the green bars); he is assuming Series X has all of the same I/O features of PC systems, and completely ignores all of the specific I/O features MS have mentioned, and others various patents point towards.

That graphic piggybacks off of similar disingenuous speculation I've seen in other Youtube video comments and videos in general, that use a lot of bad-faith assumptions on behalf of Series X (such as assuming two priority levels, or 3-channel or even 2-channel connects, supposedly higher overhead (both systems are using PCIe 4.0 which has 128b/130b encoding), etc.). That's not productive towards having honest technological discussion.



TBF Halo Infinite is not that big of a looker, you can probably get those visuals in 40K 60 FPS on a "mid tier" PC.



Okay but you're hardly the only person who's been discussing this very thing? There's nothing to grab placing your POV on this on a pedestal above everyone else's. Maybe instead of assuming people are ignoring it or brushing it off, just maybe, some of us have done our own research and arrived at conclusions that nullify or come at odds with your own?

The rest of your post is saying nothing particularly unique whatsoever; what a lot of us have been speculating on is exactly how much slower MS's approach is to Sony's in this area. The people who want to insist on the widest gap possible only cling to the paper specs (because it's convenient for them in this case); those of us who insist it will be smaller take the same approach as those who discuss in favor of PS5's GPU (for example) take: the paper specs not 100% telling everything there is to know.

The fact this kind of thing is tolerated in one instance at large but shunned by large in another instance is hypocritical when the reasoning in both cases is similarly sound.



Take off the fanboy goggles for a second and realize this is about ethics of technology speculation and discussion within a community.

Regardless of how lukewarm Halo Infinite was visually, you don't use that as a jump-off point to string together unrelated points into speculating it has to do with bad SSD I/O, when we have plenty of other answers available (crappy dev environment, bad upper management, XBO being a hinderance, XBO being the base system for dev, troubled development cycle including switching of engines mid-way through etc.) that answer the question.

Sometimes Occam's Razor actually does provide the correct answer.



I think PS5's thing has more to do with Oodle tech in particular not exactly providing a 2:1 ratio. I think it's something more like 1.6:1 or so for lossless compression. FWIW they did some tests (I found results on B3D) showing peak compression rate of 3.99:1 lossy compression using Kraken + RDO 40 (I think), which is 21.945 GB/s...pretty close to the 22 GB/s claim. The question still is though what data would compress particularly well up to that rate...

But as to the vid tho, yeah, it's not good. If he were more neutral and didn't let his preferences turn into biases slanting his talking points into using false information or strawmans, the content would be better. As-is, not worth it.

i get what you are saying but he does add a massive disclaimer at the very beginning saying something like there are many many unknown factors.

So he is just theorising. I mean he says he thinks it works like this not it will work like this.
 
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i get what you are saying but he does add a massive disclaimer at the very beginning saying something like there are many many unknown factors.

So he is just theorising. I mean he says he thinks it works like this not it will work like this.

Yes that's true he did say that at the beginning. My issue is, he's said that previously, too, and seemingly between the last time he spoke about the systems in terms of SSD I/O and now, he has not done any research because that would've been reflected in his newer analysis, either in things he's said or points he'd bring up directly.

By this logic someone could have an intentionally bad take, a sizable platform, then say "but remember, this is just all "personal speculation"", and use that as a means of not receiving criticism or critique. I don't think that's a good way of going about it. He's free to have his opinion, but once he's gone public with it, that opinion is open for analysis.

If that analysis notices flaws in their arguments, inaccuracies, disingenuous narrative tactics etc., then that is fair game for expressing. It doesn't invalidate his right to speculation.
 

geordiemp

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So I finished that video...



He states that the Series X speed isn't sustained and the PS5's SSD is sustained...

Well the Series X 2.4 GB/s of raw and 4.8 GB/s of compressed speed is already confirmed in multiple articles to be the sustained level of performance.

On the other hand the PS5 has stated that their SSD speeds are 5.5 GB/s of raw speed and 8-9 GB/s of compressed speed. The varying amount of compressed speed makes me think that the PS5 isn't garunteed to sustatain that 5.5 GB/s of raw speed otherwise they would have 11 GB/s of compressed speed and not a varying amount, assuming a 2:1 compression ratio. So I think that would put the PS5 at around 4-4.5 GB/s per second of sustained throughput in real world performance scenarios. We still need confirmation on the sustained performance of the SSD.

This video was pretty trash though. He's using the Series X name to compare the PS5 SSD to a Samsung SSD. He also gives very false information regarding the Series X's SSD.

So why have MS not shown us the velocity architecture other than state of decay loading in 12 seconds.

Why have we not seen anything on XSX, or when called out it was just a PC....

Phil says he has one in his house now, sounds a bit PR, show us the damn console running a game with super fast loading. Maybe they cant yet is the only logical conclusion....

Halo pop in was that bad it almost melted my eyeballs.

There is something up I can smell it.
 
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Greeno

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I just want to address the last part of his video where he discusses a comparison of the two consoles' storage-memory data transfer speeds.

In an interview with a Dirt 5 developer, he said this about the Series X's SSD drive: "The drive is so fast that I can load data mid-frame, use it, consume it, unload and replace it with something else in the middle of a frame, treating GPU memory like a virtual disk".

The quote above invalidates many of the claims Innocenceii makes in his last part of the video.

We will know more about the tech inside the Xbox at the Hot Chip discussion happening soon. We will be able to have a comparison that doesn't have to be based on assumptions.

Source of the interview for those who are interested:
 
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Thirty7ven

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Uh, read it again? I said that's what MS and 343i said. At the very least, I heard that from people like Alanah Pearce who seemingly had contact with people at 343i.

But it’s not true. And if you had made your research you wouldn’t have put it up there. The thought alone that MS would decide to show their flagship on a mid tier pc is hilarious by itself. Never gonna happen.

And regarding XVA? I mean, was this planned from the beginning or not? The console was announced in November and early this year they were hyping the damn thing and now I’m supposed to believe XVA wasn’t working as of a couple of months ago?

So the pitch is Halo was shown in a mid tier PC because XVA/XSX wasn’t ready and MS doesn’t have direct storage tools ready on PC either and that’s why.... wait what?
 
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But it’s not true. And if you had made your research you wouldn’t have put it up there. The thought alone that MS would decide to show their flagship on a mid tier pc is hilarious by itself. Never gonna happen.

And regarding XVA? I mean, was this planned from the beginning or not? The console was announced in November and early this year they were hyping the damn thing and now I’m supposed to believe XVA wasn’t working as of a couple of months ago?

So the pitch is Halo was shown in a mid tier PC because XVA/XSX wasn’t ready and MS doesn’t have direct storage tools ready on PC either and that’s why.... wait what?
Halo looks like shit because it's up rezed 60 fps Xbox one game. The end
 

Greeno

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Yep.

I'll make a similar thread about Austin Evans then.
I think we can all agree, Austin Evans is not that of a source for technological comparisons. Or a good source for any tech talk.
 
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Thirty7ven

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Halo looks like shit because it's up rezed 60 fps Xbox one game. The end

Didn’t say otherwise. It’s obvious the hardware isn’t at fault.

Terrible art style
Horrendous pop in
Flat lighting
Static and lifeless environment

It sounds like incompetence and everyone who was hyped for the slipspace Engine was played for a fiddle. 343i are a bolted together studio it shows.
 

FranXico

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I think we can all agree, Austin Evans is not that of a source for technological comparisons.
Neither is this youtuber, but Austin Evans is much more popular and arguably misleading a lot more people.
 
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Didn’t say otherwise. It’s obvious the hardware isn’t at fault.

Terrible art style
Horrendous pop in
Flat lighting
Static and lifeless environment

It sounds like incompetence and everyone who was hyped for the slipspace Engine was played for a fiddle. 343i are a bolted together studio it shows.
Yes terrible for years. I was just arguing that it could very well be mid tier PC because the game looks like one running on one. Actually probably low tier PC.
 
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Being open world and 60fps is not an excuse for what 343 showed, especially with the capability of the target hardware.
Shit man I loved mgs5 gameplay. Still to this day it's like my standard for well done controls and responsiveness on console. But on base Xbox Naa it doesn't look better. Equal maybe. But I'm saying they literally took the Xbox one version of Halo. Upped it to 4k and called it the series x version. I think 343 is way way behind schedule. Very mismanaged.