Tech Enthusiasts: Is it IMPOSSIBLE, as Mario fans claim, to put NSMB U online?

[GregLombardi]

An argument that arose in this thread:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=494217


...between myself and others. Quite frankly -- I'm sick and tired of this online dance that Nintendo has been doing for years. In my mind, with such complex games online as DOTA 2 and Starcraft 2 and Call of Duty, there should be literally no reason that one can't put NSMB U online with at least 2 players (If not with the tablet play, then at least with basic co-op play).

But some in the other thread implied that one would need to change the speed of light to do it effectively (this seems absurd to me). I do not have the technical mastery of latency to effectively argue one way or the other, so I ask -- is it IMPOSSIBLE?

 

[chertipros]

it's not impossible, just difficult

 

[Izick]

Wait....what? I'm confused. Why would it be possible to put it online?

 

[@MUWANdo]

Not impossible, no, but really goddamn difficult to do well.

 

[Goodlife]

and Call of Duty

snigger

 

[ShockingAlberto]

It's not impossible.

I just suspect they don't want to do it badly and don't have time to do it well.

 

[Corky]

it's not impossible, just difficult

Difficult? Compared to what? Other games' mp-features? Or difficult compared to cooking a decent breakfast?

 

[Forkball]

I remember when people used to say it would be impossible to put Street Fighter or SSB online due to lag. Online multiplayer Mario would be fantastic, but I have to admit that NSMB is a game that benefits greatly from having other people yelling and screaming right next to you.

 

[Sophia]

Would it be more feasible just to do co-op online?

 

[which1spink]

Bullshit.

 

[mxgt]

Rayman Origins didn't have online either so maybe it is pretty hard to get right

 

[dock]

The same was used for Virtua Fighter for a while. Obviously it impacts performance and it requires code to tolerate it, but it should be doable!

 

[StuBurns]

It's impossible to match local co-op, it's possible for the latency to not significantly harm the online experience to the point it's not longer of value to the consumer.

 

[Eusis]

It's not impossible.

I just suspect they don't want to do it badly and don't have time to do it well.

Yeah, probably this. Enemy AI's simple, and it's not as if games like Dark Souls don't roll with latency for your actions effecting others anyway, but Nintendo either can't get it to a standard they want, or they just don't want to deal with it.

 

[Napalm_Frank]

Difficult? Compared to what? Other games' mp-features? Or difficult compared to cooking a decent breakfast?

Difficult for Nintendo.

nyuck nyuck nyuck

Even if its not perfect it should be fun to have. Definately should be 100% playable.

 

[Pie and Beans]

tried typing four or five times now, but cant stop due to laughing so hard. Those defenders, what heady heights of nonsense wont they take themselves.

As far as I'm aware, NSMBU doesnt have some physics that are out of this world and impossible to get going across the series of tubes. Input lag and snappy controls arent a problem for plenty of other co-op platforming across the internet adventures (Including things like LittleBigPlanet), so no, impossible isnt the word. Compromises to be made, sure. But nutty purists measuring nanoseconds between goomba squashings arent the mass market. Hell, NSMB is less snappy than the original Marios, its got way more float these days.

 

[Crazyorloco]

In my sincere opinion, i think Local multiplayer > online multiplayer. I don't want to deal with lag. If they're able to include online multiplayer, great. If not it's ok.

It's ok.

 

[GregLombardi]

it's not impossible, just difficult

Why is it difficult? This literally makes no sense to me. There shouldn't be any more latency issues with a Mario title than say, a DOTA 2 for example. DOTA 2 has 10 players each casting at least 4 different spells at any given time, where execution of said casting has way more effect on outcomes than the choices a person has within a platform environment.

So I ask again: Why on earth is it difficult?

 

[BadWolf]

Not a tech guy but I don't see why a much simpler game like a platformer would be impossible when a much more complex and input/accuracy heavy genre like fighting games is.

 

[Sethos]

We can have huge battlefields with 100+ players raging an epic war with ground and air vehicles, we can have fast paced 16 player action with tons of stuff getting called in, explosions everywhere. We have huge maps the size of entire countries in air simulators that also keeps a track of hundreds, if not thousands of other AI air units in a dynamic campaign ...

But we can't have multiplayer in Mario because it's difficult?

 

[erpg]

I had absolutely no problem playing Ms. 'Splosion Man's co-op online, and it's a twitchier platformer than any Mario game I've played.

 

[Izick]

Local multiplayer > online multiplayer. I don't want to deal with lag

What the fuck? Why can't you have both? Why wouldn't a game have both? This isn't 1996, it's fucking 2012.

 

[Diablohead]

There is always a way, if you can make a 3d game work online you can make a 2d one work too. It might be hard to keep enemies in sync but to get mario and luigi to work online would be like a fighting game keeping in sync with each other and look how well games like streef fighter work, unless you play with someone the other side of the planet it's fine.

Hell, i've made and seen games built in CLICK AND CREATE work online flawless.

Local multiplayer > online multiplayer. I don't want to deal with lag

It's a shame my cousins live away from me and my friends all work in the day while I work night shifts, isn't it.

 

[Sophia]

Why is it difficult? This literally makes no sense to me. There shouldn't be any more latency issues with a Mario title than say, a DOTA 2 for example. DOTA 2 has 10 players each casting at least 4 different spells at any given time, where execution of said casting has way more effect on outcomes than the choices a person has within a platform environment.

So I ask again: Why on earth is it difficult?

I always suspected at first it was the difficulty in keeping four players in sync with Mario's precise physics, and Nintendo wasn't satisfied with just co-op online.

But NSMB2 kinda rules that theory out.

Local multiplayer > online multiplayer. I don't want to deal with lag

Who the hell cares? We're in 2012. No reason we can't have both. Your post reeks of a selfish "I don't want it, so NOBODY should have it" attitude.

 

[The Boat]

Question: is there any Mario-like platformer with online? If so, is it any good?
And I say Mario-like because LBP doesn't require (or have) the precision Mario has.

I certainly don't know any game that does this and it seems pretty obvious that it's very hard to do.

 

[Kai Dracon]

Here come the fighting game references.

And how many years did it take to refine netcode strategies until games with only two moving objects that have to be synched at 60fps have tolerable input latency, most of the time?

I don't think the OP should have turned this into "Mario fans" vs everyone else. You're a Mario fan if you point out that many don't seem to understand the difficulties in creating the illusion that various types of games are responsive when playing online?

 

[Holy Order Sol]

lol "as Mario fans claim"

 

[Eusis]

We can have huge battlefields with 100+ players raging an epic war with ground and air vehicles, we can have fast paced 16 player action, we have huge maps the size of entire countries in air simulators that also keeps a track of hundreds, if not thousands of other AI air units in a dynamic campaign ...

But we can't have multiplayer in Mario because it's difficult?

Platforming is the big thing I think, you HAVE to have that run locally and, I think, predicting other players positions to work well, as the last thing you want is a delayed jump that sends you flying into a pit. And like said AI IS simple, so the only problem is when players antagonise each other I think.

 

[CrunchinJelly]

Nintendo just can't be arsed to invest the time and effort.

 

[Erethian]

Yeah, probably this. Enemy AI's simple, and it's not as if games like Dark Souls don't roll with latency for your actions effecting others anyway, but Nintendo either can't get it to a standard they want, or they just don't want to deal with it.

Latency is always going to be an issue with a 60 FPS platformer with tight controls.

But they also don't need to do it from a sales perspective. Most of the industry seems happy to vacate the local multiplayer space to Nintendo, not to mention the platformer space. So it's not like there's a ton of competition out there that are showing them up in that area.

 

[Carl]

I remember when people used to say it would be impossible to put Street Fighter or SSB online due to lag. Online multiplayer Mario would be fantastic, but I have to admit that NSMB is a game that benefits greatly from having other people yelling and screaming right next to you.

All games are better with someone playing next to you. Doesn't stop people enjoying the online, though.

 

[DaSorcerer7]

Rayman fans, what say you?

 

[RionaaM]

Local multiplayer > online multiplayer. I don't want to deal with lag

Yeah, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to have the option. It's not often that I have my friends come home to play games, and I don't even have 4 Wiimotes, so online capabilities would be great for me. Though I doubt I'll use them often, I'm not a multiplayer fan.

 

[GregLombardi]

Here come the fighting game references.

And how many years did it take to refine netcode strategies until games with only two moving objects that have to be synched at 60fps have tolerable input latency, most of the time?

I don't think the OP should have turned this into "Mario fans" vs everyone else. You're a Mario fan if you point out that many don't seem to understand the difficulties in creating the illusion that various types of games are responsive when playing online?

I could have said Nintendo fans, but that would be invoking console wars.

I am a Mario fan, and a Nintendo fan, by the way. I'm also a fan of good games regardless of the platform they are on.

I just can't get past this online crap that Nintendo seems to keep pulling. It makes 0 sense to me as a multiplayer gamer.

 

[Corky]

I certainly don't know any game that does this and it seems pretty obvious that it's very hard to do.

The hell is going on, fighting games with no more than 1 frame latency delay now that's something hard to do. A bloody platformer with low enough latency that you don't feel like you're underwater should be one of the easier things to do, compared to other genres and games like sc2, quake 3, cod, bf, SF, etc.

 

[Sethos]

Platforming is the big thing I think, you HAVE to have that run locally and, I think, predicting other players positions to work well, as the last thing you want is a delayed jump that sends you flying into a pit. And like said AI IS simple, so the only problem is when players antagonise each other I think.

What a load of rubbish.

 

[Izick]

My guess is that they have it in the next one, and use that as the selling point; as HD is the selling point in this new one.

 

[Goodlife]

Why is it difficult? This literally makes no sense to me. There shouldn't be any more latency issues with a Mario title than say, a DOTA 2 for example. DOTA 2 has 10 players each casting at least 4 different spells at any given time, where execution of said casting has way more effect on outcomes than the choices a person has within a platform environment.

So I ask again: Why on earth is it difficult?

I'd imagine the lag is the biggest problem for platformers.
It's very much about timing with Mario, if you jump a little too early/late then you won't make the jump.
There is going to be lag between you pressing the button, that input being sent to the server, the server processing it and then sending it back to your and your friends machine.

I've no idea how hard it would be to sort out, but you can see why there are different issues for Mario etc then there is for say COD which doesn't require such precision timing.

 

[MikeE21286]

Most people wouldn't care. Look at CoD. I'm sure there's imperfections there compared to local play, and people are nuts over it.

It's just excuses.

 

[Goodlife]

We can have huge battlefields with 100+ players raging an epic war with ground and air vehicles, we can have fast paced 16 player action with tons of stuff getting called in, explosions everywhere. We have huge maps the size of entire countries in air simulators that also keeps a track of hundreds, if not thousands of other AI air units in a dynamic campaign ...

But we can't have multiplayer in Mario because it's difficult?

Completely different set of problems.

 

[Htown]

Here come the fighting game references.

And how many years did it take to refine netcode strategies until games with only two moving objects that have to be synched at 60fps have tolerable input latency, most of the time?

And a lot of companies still haven't figured that out. Capcom's stuff is mostly okay, but there are plenty of fighting games where the online is still terrible.

 

[Valtor]

It's not about the amount of data transferred ( because what is transferred is very small ; in your example, the only data transferred would be "this dude cast that spell", and then when the game gets that message, it makes the thing happen ) What is difficult is the importance of miliseconds. In a platformer, it needs to be pretty much pitch perfect.

The counter argument to this would be that the type of game that needs the most accuracy would be fighting games, and they have no trouble going online. So what did they do to make sure online play is feasible? This I don't know.

 

[Perkel]

It's because they don't want to. They want to create game for few thousand dollars and sell it for milions. Why would they do some more work ?

 

[Des0lar]

Local multiplayer > online multiplayer. I don't want to deal with lag

And so you don't want any other person to have online either? What kind of shitty logic is that?

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

Rayman Origins didn't have online either so maybe it is pretty hard to get right

Yeah, what other online multiplayer platformers are out there? Lag when you have to hit that jump on a block no bigger than your character would be awful.

 

[grimshawish]

No. But I don't think every game needs it anyway.
Plus with 20m+ people buying it for local play, its going fine - add to that the difficulty with making the game work.

This is a mass market game, lag and what not just would kill it; for COD or something its fine - but 4 characters who get in each others way jumping over gaps? Lag would kill it.

Its not impossible, its just imperfect.

 

[Sethos]

No offence but it's the dumbest fucking arguments I've heard against it, "Oh netcode needs to be spot-on to make that jump" yeah if you use server-side registration. That's where client-side comes in, the client tells the server whether he made the jump or not - Instead of the other way around.

We have actually reached a point in netcode development where there's very few boundaries, it all depends on what you want out of the experience.

 

[DaSorcerer7]

It's because they don't want to. They want to create game for few thousand dollars and sell it for milions. Why would they do some more work ?

This post makes no sense.

 

[Berg]

No online... Still sells 20 millions copies.

 

[GDGF]

Tech enthusiasts VS Mario fans, huh?