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[1.21Gigawatts]

Not according to my SAT scores.

But you realize that you misread what I wrote, do you?
I described that anti-semitic propaganda influences people in the same way as sexist design, through media consumption. And you read into that that I am equating antisemitic propaganda and sexist design.

You knew what you were doing. Irregardless, don't you think that there is the possibility that the media is a reflection of social norms rather than the originator of them?

No, because media is only created by tiny, non-representative fraction of society, in the context of a market economy where media takes on the role of a consumer good.

Do you believe that if you change the media, then you will change the social norms?

The point of Cambridge Analytica was to create accurate personality profiles(on the basis of facebook data they crawled) and based on these profiles and certain sociological and psychological theories for human action and behavior they created certain pieces of media designed to push these people opinions into certain directions.
By controlling what kind of media people consume you can determine what kind of opinions they will hold.
Now, Cambridge Analytica were amateurs, but the same exact thing is happening at Palantir and these guys aren't amateurs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palantir_Technologies
Their founder, Alex Karp, is not an amateur:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Karp
He specifically studied many of the most renowned people who worked on theories of society as well as theories for human action.

So, what these guys do is basically view humans as agents in an environment. And certain behavioral parameters, environmental parameters and certain external inputs are then taking into account to predict behavior, believes, opinions and ultimately actions.

The science behind this is sound, yet somehow when we talk about video games people act like what we consume has not effect on how we think.

If you do, then do you think it is the responsibility of media creators to design their media in such a way as to only send positive messages about society to others with the express goal of changing the thoughts and feelings of those who consume it?

Not positive messages, but responsible messages.
Sexist design and reproducing sexist stereotypes isn't the intention of creators, its a side effect.
Creators should be aware of these side effects so they can come to an informed decision about their design.

I'm not seeing the distinction. What is an example of a sexy character that is not based on stereotypical and sexualized portrayals?

Nate Drake, Aloy, the girl from the Gears 5 trailer.

Here's something I'd like you to be aware of. Ivy is not a person. Ivy is not a she. Ivy is an it. A literal object. It is an object that has been designed to appear as a human female. This is literally the opposite of objectification. This is personification. Ivy cannot be objectification because you can not objectify something that is already an object.

People view pixels in video games as characters, though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief#Psychology

But, you could say that Ivy's portrayal leads others to objectify women. But how do you know?

How do you know anyone actually buys a Coke because of a Coke commercial?
You don't. But people are still very convinced that advertisement actually has an effect on people.

Another thing you might not have considered is that our definition of sexy is BASED on the social norms. Back in Victorian England, showing a little bit of ankle was considered scandalous. And they had burlesque shows that were designed around showing legs covered in stockings. Could it not be possible that by changing the social norms to where you think is acceptable, we'll just create a new definition of "too sexy"?

Thats the reason why the main demand is better representation of women in game creation, so we get their input on "sexy" and a more accurate reflection of the current status quo.

If Ivy's outfit is too far now, isn't it entirely possible, even likely, that we'll eventually reach a point where showing a little ankle is too far? What's the point of regressing society's freedoms if the core issue will just follow?

Well, I live in Munich, where there are naked people all over the city.
I've seen the first naked people lie around next to river in early Feburary, there was still snow in some shadowy areas.
Nudity is very normal here. But only without the sexualization.
Its a natural process where the norm is shaped by all peoples actions. But if you have an industry creating media(mostly created by men) portraying sexualized norms and send that out to millions of people who will be influenced by this, you don't have a natural process.

That said, sexuality has, at least in the west, for the longest time been strongly connected to shame. It wasn't something people were open about or proud of. This will change in the future. Sexuality will become much more normal and accepted, but that doesn't mean it will be sexualized and fetishized.

Ok, I agree with you on this, but I suspect we differ on what. For instance, I consider a burka to be a sexist design (seeing as it is literally designed to reduce women to objects), but I think a burka could be appropriately used in a game about sexual freedom.

I agree.

Can you give an example of a sexist design that you think is not inherently bad?

Bayonetta. It's sexist, but also in proper context.
I also don't think that Iyv or Taki are inherently bad. Just problematic and I wish the creators would put more thought into it and consider the messages they send with this.

 

[Abriael_GN]

I won't bother responding to all the rambling, because nearly none of it makes sense, but two parts are relevant.

Nate Drake, Aloy, the girl from the Gears 5 trailer.

Only fully-dressed allowed. I see.

You're most definitely part of the crowd Harada-san is talking about.

Not positive messages, but responsible messages.

"Responsible" is extremely subjective, and if media and art stuck only to "responsible" through the ages, we'd still be stuck at cave paintings. Actually, scratch that. Plenty of cave paintings would be "irresponsible" by your extremist standards.

Irresponsible is how evolution is created. By sticking to "responsible" messages there's only stagnation.

 

[bilderberg]

Actually there's no way to win. Big boobs is fetishization, small boobs is paedophilia.

"All body types are beautiful, as long as it's conformed to a very specific shoulder-waist ratio, bust measurements, butt size, and a whole list of other measurements that don't stereotypical objectify the female body." It's totally okay to make sexy designs, but I just have a hundred rules you have to follow or else it's sexist.

 

[KoolAidPitcher]

This is a natural reaction to outrage culture. Harada, as well as other Japanese developers are developing a resistence to fake outrage. Much like how an immune system protects its host from bacteria and viruses.

 

[Abriael_GN]

I want to thank the NeoGAF mods for allowing and encouraging debate. We are not like the other forum who will ban you for not having the correct opinion 100% of the time. We encourage people to think for themselves and formulate their own opinions. We encourage dissent and debate.

Normally censorship (even in forums) happens when people doing the censoring know full well that they represent the wrong opinion and have to silence the opposing side which brings solid arguments in order to feel better with themselves in their echo chamber. Luckily, that doesn't appear to be happening (anymore) here.

For the record, I think the free market should decide what content is and is not in a videogame. If you do not like something, don't buy it. Vote with your wallet, and ultimately content will be created which appeals to their audience.

Unfortunately, history always features periods of obscurantism and censorship. It's a cycle that keeps repeating itself since the Catholic church forced artists to cover the genitals in arts, and even much earlier than that.

Luckily, there is the other part of that cycle, in which censorship and oppression always lose the battle in the long run. Things get worse before they get better, and that's when people get sick of it, and freedom finally becomes a value to uphold and protect once again.

It appears that we might be seeing the first rays of light coming from the second part of the cycle, but it'll take longer before it becomes widespread. Yet, I can almost certainly guarantee that it will.

 

[The Chairman]

Only fully-dressed allowed. I see.

"look guys how sexy that heavy metal armor is covering her sinful body"

@ 1 1.21Gigawatts really hates the female body that the only female designs acceptable by him is when the woman is covered by thick armor to the point of not knowing if she is a man or a woman if we didn't see her face.

 

[Abriael_GN]

"look guys how sexy that heavy metal armor is covering her sinful body"

To be fair, heavy armor can be extremely sexy. It's just another kind of sexy.

Having both options and every shade of grey in between is what makes the celebration of human beauty awesome. Variety is the spice of life.

That's why cultural diversity in development and art is a value to be cherished and protected, instead of oppressed.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

I won't bother responding to all the rambling, because nearly none of it makes sense.

It makes a lot of sense, you just don't seem to understand it.

Only fully-dressed allowed. I see.

Shit needs to make sense(as in, would characters in this context dress like that?) and shit shouldn't look like its designed for the sole purpose of teenagers getting a hard on.

You're most definitely part of the crowd Harada-san is talking about.

Yes, thats why I am here. Giving the perspective he is arguing against to see if anyone here has proper arguments this point of view. So far, nothing.

"Responsible" is extremely subjective, and if media and art stuck only to "responsible" through the ages, we'd still be stuck at cave paintings. Actually, scratch that. Plenty of cave paintings would be "irresponsible" by your extremist standards.

Thinking about the meaning and effects of your art should be inherent to the process of creation.
I don't think how this could be detrimental.

Irresponsible is how evolution is created. By sticking to "responsible" messages there's only stagnation.

Actually, quite the opposite in this case because the design we are talking about here is the reproduction of a status quo and historical bias(gender role, male dominated industry). This IS the stagnation.
You have this concept of what video games are and can be based on what video games have been so far. Progress is made when creations go beyond that.

But video games are on a good way and many major studios have understood the problem.

 

[KoolAidPitcher]

Unfortunately, history always features periods of obscurantism and censorship. It's a cycle that keeps repeating itself since the Catholic church forced artists to cover the genitals in arts, and even much earlier than that.

Luckily, there is the other part of that cycle, in which censorship and oppression always lose the battle in the long run. Things get worse before they get better, and that's when people get sick of it, and freedom finally becomes a value to uphold and protect once again.

It appears that we might be seeing the first rays of light coming from the second part of the cycle, but it'll take longer before it becomes widespread. Yet, I can almost certainly guarantee that it will.

People are already sick of it. They are voting with their wallet and games are underperforming. In an industry where development costs are high and margins are already small, I do not see how this can continue.

Developers are out of touch with their own audience and are making games for activists. I believe we are heading for another AAA games crash like in the 1980's. The ray of light which will save gaming will once again be Japan. Funny how history repeats itself.

 

[Abriael_GN]

Shit needs to make sense(as in, would characters in this context dress like that?)

No. It doesn't, because it's fiction. There is no rule that establishes that fiction needs to make sense, and a lot of the best fiction doesn't.

and shit shouldn't look like its designed for the sole purpose of teenagers getting a hard on.

Teenagers getting hard-ons is an important part of their development.

Yes, thats why I am here. Giving the perspective he is arguing against to see if anyone here has proper arguments this point of view. So far, nothing.

You didn't bring a single argument that holds any weight, just arbitrary rule-lawyering.

Thinking about the meaning and effects of your art should be inherent to the process of creation.
I don't think how this could be detrimental.

Art's meaning is art. Its effect is the appreciation and expression of art. The end.

Actually, quite the opposite in this case because the design we are talking about here is the reproduction of a status quo and historical bias(gender role, male dominated industry). This IS the stagnation.
You have this concept of what video games are and can be based on what video games have been so far. Progress is made when creations go beyond that.

Censorship is the opposite of evolution. Trying to impose false evolution through censorship and oppression of different development cultures is fallacious and retrograde.

But video games are on a good way and many major studios have understood the problem.

Some studios embraced certain ideals, others are doing the opposite. Which is great. It's called diversity and variety, which you seem to dislike in favor of a homogenized development culture based very conveniently on your arbitrary point of view.

 

[Sqorin Hammerfarf]

To be fair, heavy armor can be extremely sexy. It's just another kind of sexy.

Or, to put it Soul Calibur terms, Hilde is my waifu... Oh shit, I think I just objectified her... FUCK. Even platemail-clad hotties aren’t safe. Doh! Hotties? I did it again. Sorry Hilde. You know I respect you as a strong independent woman and mother. I would never intentionally diminish your value as a human by intimating that you are in any way attractive or that I would take you from behind like a lion ravishing a lioness upon an altar of gold and sapphire. You know that, right?

 

[Danjin44]

@ 1 1.21Gigawatts : If you dont enjoy sexy character design in your games then vote with your wallet and buy games with none sexy designs while I vote with my wallet support those games because I enjoy sexy designs in my games.

 

[bilderberg]

Shit needs to make sense(as in, would characters in this context dress like that?) and shit shouldn't look like its designed for the sole purpose of teenagers getting a hard on.

Funny how practicality is only sought after when it's viewed from a sexual context. Desert Eagles aren't practical but you don't have opposing arguments that they shouldn't be in video games. $1,000+ designer suits aren't practical but they are some of the most common and coolest designs for many fighting game characters. Practical inspiration isn't the only form art needs to take. Who is really at fault here for objectification? Is it the artists creating sexy designs, or is it the player doing the objectifying? I can look at a sexy character like Ivy and see she's still a character with a background and personality, if all you see is an object...than well that's on you. It's why it's so hard for people like me to relate to your essay long arguments about what my brain is doing when looking at sexy characters because I don't feel the way you do. You're projecting your thoughts onto people like us who don't harbor them.

And even if someone wanted to look pass any personality or character from someone with a sexy design and purely objectify, I just don't fucking care either way because that character isn't real. I'm not going to raise my eyebrow to someone going on a six star rampage in GTA, so why should I do the same to someone getting a hard on because of a video game?

 

[Abriael_GN]

Shit needs to make sense(as in, would characters in this context dress like that?).

Let's see your outrage at this.

Spoiler: Warning - NSFW

It doesn't make the slightest sense to tear someone's torso and head in half through propelling their own skull and spine/ribcage upwards with a kick in the family jewels.

Yet I don't see all that many shaking their angry fist at it.

This isn't practical and fighting in it makes less sense than fighting in a thong. Where's your rage?

 

[Shin]

you

Going to take a wild guess here and assume you're for changes and akin to "SJW's"?
Saying that because I've noticed they always feel the need to write a book about how everyone else is wrong and with multiple quotes and all.
Didn't read anything you wrote, not going to either, just asking a simple question as your post length reminded me of the above mentioned.

 

[lingpanda]

Tekken will always have a special place in heart. Character designs is a big reason I got into the series. If anything maybe it's time the ESRB gave it a M rating. It's currently a Teen rating with the following description.

"The game contains some suggestive material: female characters wearing outfits that reveal deep cleavage (the camera occasionally zooms in on their chests); a male character peeking at a woman as she showers (no nudity is depicted); a man falling face first into a woman's chest"

 

[Abriael_GN]

Tekken will always have a special place in heart. Character designs is a big reason I got into the series. If anything maybe it's time the ESRB gave it a M rating. It's currently a Teen rating with the following description.

"The game contains some suggestive material: female characters wearing outfits that reveal deep cleavage (the camera occasionally zooms in on their chests); a male character peeking at a woman as she showers (no nudity is depicted); a man falling face first into a woman's chest"

There is literally nothing in there (or in Tekken 7 as a whole) that comes even close to warranting an M rating.

 

[Sqorin Hammerfarf]

The point of Cambridge Analytica was to create accurate personality profiles(on the basis of facebook data they crawled) and based on these profiles and certain sociological and psychological theories for human action and behavior they created certain pieces of media designed to push these people opinions into certain directions.
By controlling what kind of media people consume you can determine what kind of opinions they will hold.

I was talking to my wife at lunch today about some of the studies in that link Shai-Tan linked to, and we sort of came to an interesting conclusion.

Basically, the media you consume may have some affect on you, but it is going to be so small as to be virtually insignificant in the face of the influence you receive from your immediate peers - yours friends, classmates, teachers, bosses, coworkers, parents, siblings, etc. Media has no direct peer affect on you. If you don't think Ivy is sexy then Soul Calibur 6 doesn't judge you. Your friends, however, do, and how they judge you will affect their relationship with them. So they have a huge amount of influence over you, and you of them, where Soul Calibur 6 has basically none. It also helps that Soul Calibur 6 is fiction while your friends are real.

But then you get to social media which blurs that line between fiction and reality. My wife showed me this news article of this guy who was arrested for punching a man after learning he was a pedophile. The comments section for that news article was about 80 people who were all cheering him on and saying that he was a hero. Now, those guys wouldn't punch a person in real life (most likely). They are perpetuating a fantasy version of life where such things are not just okay, they are admirable. But social media sets things up so that these people are providing peer feedback to each other. You've got real peers engaging in a fantasy to the point where the fantasy is no longer clear.

So, social media is built around making these peer groups and giving them power over each other (being able to signal boost each other with likes and retweets, being able to shame each other, being able to ostracize each other). This gives the peer groups very real powers that affect the real world. But because social media is built around echo chambers that have very little input from the outside, it perpetuates a fantasy version of reality. In short, something like "sexy designs are objectification" gets signal boosted and people who disagree with this are shamed and/or banned (likely both, if you are on ResetEra).

So basically, Soul Calibur doesn't do shit, but Twitter does, and it turns out that your peer group on Twitter's opinion of Soul Calibur starts to matter. It isn't that Soul Calibur objectifies women, it's that this peer group believes that it does, and you must act in a real world way in accordance to the norms dictated by this group. This means that it doesn't actually matter whether Soul Calibur is sexist or not because the way you must act regarding it is not based on Soul Calibur, but on Twitter.

Long story short, this was never about Soul Calibur 6 having sexy costumes and arguably never will be. This is about the peer groups you maintain and how they influence how you act. And frankly, about how you have decided to belong to an extremist, unpleasant, arrogant peer group who is actively working on turning you into a terrible person who put their needs ahead of the greater world community's.

It also means that there is nothing I can do to convince you of anything. Not being part of your peer group, the kind of feedback I can offer you will be considerably less effective than the feedback your peers offer you. Unless you divorce yourself from that group of horrible people, the best you can hope for when dealing with conflicting ideas is "agree to disagree".

Not positive messages, but responsible messages.
Sexist design and reproducing sexist stereotypes isn't the intention of creators, its a side effect.
Creators should be aware of these side effects so they can come to an informed decision about their design.

So, basically, you are advocating that media be a leader of public policy, not a reflection of it? That game designers must be aware of the propagandist purposes behind their creations and work accordingly?

Nate Drake, Aloy, the girl from the Gears 5 trailer.

I see. Not really what I'd consider "sexy", but it takes all kinds though. Am I allowed to have my own opinion of what I find sexy, or do I need to model it after yours?

Thats the reason why the main demand is better representation of women in game creation, so we get their input on "sexy" and a more accurate reflection of the current status quo.

Women aren't in a position to say what men find sexy though, are they? That's like asking a color blind person about flower arrangement. They can copy a flower arrangement, but lacking a core component to understand flower arrangement, they won't be creating their own to any sort of good effect.

Nudity is very normal here. But only without the sexualization.

Really? I'm getting a stiffy just from your description.

That said, sexuality has, at least in the west, for the longest time been strongly connected to shame. It wasn't something people were open about or proud of. This will change in the future. Sexuality will become much more normal and accepted, but that doesn't mean it will be sexualized and fetishized.

You literally tried to shame people who liked Soul Calibur 6 as pedophiles! How will this change in the future when you are being an asshole about it now?

I also don't think that Iyv or Taki are inherently bad. Just problematic and I wish the creators would put more thought into it and consider the messages they send with this.

I'll be honest, I think they probably put a lot of thought into it. That's why Soul Calibur 6 is based of Soul Calibur and not Soul Calibur 5. People did not respond to the changes made to the game series, so they hit the reset button and went back to when they knew it was loved. And given that the game seems to be more successful than SC5, it seems that the people agree. I don't think it's really fair to say all those people who are happy with SC6 are wrong or immoral (or pedophiles) and that all they need to do is understand feminism more to realize how wrong they are.

 

[hariseldon]

I was talking to my wife at lunch today about some of the studies in that link Shai-Tan linked to, and we sort of came to an interesting conclusion.

Basically, the media you consume may have some affect on you, but it is going to be so small as to be virtually insignificant in the face of the influence you receive from your immediate peers - yours friends, classmates, teachers, bosses, coworkers, parents, siblings, etc. Media has no direct peer affect on you. If you don't think Ivy is sexy then Soul Calibur 6 doesn't judge you. Your friends, however, do, and how they judge you will affect their relationship with them. So they have a huge amount of influence over you, and you of them, where Soul Calibur 6 has basically none. It also helps that Soul Calibur 6 is fiction while your friends are real.

But then you get to social media which blurs that line between fiction and reality. My wife showed me this news article of this guy who was arrested for punching a man after learning he was a pedophile. The comments section for that news article was about 80 people who were all cheering him on and saying that he was a hero. Now, those guys wouldn't punch a person in real life (most likely). They are perpetuating a fantasy version of life where such things are not just okay, they are admirable. But social media sets things up so that these people are providing peer feedback to each other. You've got real peers engaging in a fantasy to the point where the fantasy is no longer clear.

So, social media is built around making these peer groups and giving them power over each other (being able to signal boost each other with likes and retweets, being able to shame each other, being able to ostracize each other). This gives the peer groups very real powers that affect the real world. But because social media is built around echo chambers that have very little input from the outside, it perpetuates a fantasy version of reality. In short, something like "sexy designs are objectification" gets signal boosted and people who disagree with this are shamed and/or banned (likely both, if you are on ResetEra).

So basically, Soul Calibur doesn't do shit, but Twitter does, and it turns out that your peer group on Twitter's opinion of Soul Calibur starts to matter. It isn't that Soul Calibur objectifies women, it's that this peer group believes that it does, and you must act in a real world way in accordance to the norms dictated by this group. This means that it doesn't actually matter whether Soul Calibur is sexist or not because the way you must act regarding it is not based on Soul Calibur, but on Twitter.

Long story short, this was never about Soul Calibur 6 having sexy costumes and arguably never will be. This is about the peer groups you maintain and how they influence how you act. And frankly, about how you have decided to belong to an extremist, unpleasant, arrogant peer group who is actively working on turning you into a terrible person who put their needs ahead of the greater world community's.

It also means that there is nothing I can do to convince you of anything. Not being part of your peer group, the kind of feedback I can offer you will be considerably less effective than the feedback your peers offer you. Unless you divorce yourself from that group of horrible people, the best you can hope for when dealing with conflicting ideas is "agree to disagree".

So, basically, you are advocating that media be a leader of public policy, not a reflection of it? That game designers must be aware of the propagandist purposes behind their creations and work accordingly?

I see. Not really what I'd consider "sexy", but it takes all kinds though. Am I allowed to have my own opinion of what I find sexy, or do I need to model it after yours?

Women aren't in a position to say what men find sexy though, are they? That's like asking a color blind person about flower arrangement. They can copy a flower arrangement, but lacking a core component to understand flower arrangement, they won't be creating their own to any sort of good effect.


Really? I'm getting a stiffy just from your description.

You literally tried to shame people who liked Soul Calibur 6 as pedophiles! How will this change in the future when you are being an asshole about it now?


I'll be honest, I think they probably put a lot of thought into it. That's why Soul Calibur 6 is based of Soul Calibur and not Soul Calibur 5. People did not respond to the changes made to the game series, so they hit the reset button and went back to when they knew it was loved. And given that the game seems to be more successful than SC5, it seems that the people agree. I don't think it's really fair to say all those people who are happy with SC6 are wrong or immoral (or pedophiles) and that all they need to do is understand feminism more to realize how wrong they are.

Epic post sir, epic post, and thank you for sticking it out longer than I could. Honestly the evasion and bullshit was just too much for me to deal with, thank you for taking one for the team.

 

[Sqorin Hammerfarf]

Epic post sir, epic post, and thank you for sticking it out longer than I could. Honestly the evasion and bullshit was just too much for me to deal with, thank you for taking one for the team.

Honestly, do you know how rare it is to find someone with these kind of viewpoints willing to actually discuss it? They usually hang out in places like ResetEra where wrong think is excised at the first sign, or Twitter where they can block you. This is perhaps the first time I've ever seen someone who believes in objectification be willing to discuss it, where both sides can talk without anyone being worried about getting banned. Objectification discussions are almost always one sided.

Now, I don't agree with him on this issue at all, and the pedophile thing has basically earned him a permanent spot on my shit list, but I do very much appreciate him continuing this conversation. I don't think I could've come to the conclusion about social media without him, and I feel like that is a pretty big breakthrough in understanding. I mean, I think we all know that Anita Sarkeesian did more damage to the game industry than Ivy's sexy lingerie ever did, and I think I've finally pinpointed why. Why does Sarkeesian have influence over us where video games don't? It had nothing to do with the content of the games but by how a specific peer group viewed the content of the games, and their ability to influence each other through social media. The games are basically just innocent bystanders.

 

[PocoJoe]

Almost always when someone gets offended, it is their fault, not of what they are offended by if we are talking about forms of art or entertainment.

Normal person sees something he/she doesnt like = stop watching.

stupid person sees something he/she doesnt like = NOBODY CAN ENJOY FROM THIS BAN IT!!

IMO only simple minded, stupid and mentally ill people get offended by how some fictional character is dressed or how she/he looks like.

And companies should grow a spine and just laugh to these oversensitive ones, instead of giving them power they wont deserve.

I guess one part of the problem is that some are too shallow minded to see difference between fiction and reality, so they get offended by some pixels.

 

[CatCouch]

I was talking to my wife at lunch today about some of the studies in that link Shai-Tan linked to, and we sort of came to an interesting conclusion.

Basically, the media you consume may have some affect on you, but it is going to be so small as to be virtually insignificant in the face of the influence you receive from your immediate peers - yours friends, classmates, teachers, bosses, coworkers, parents, siblings, etc. Media has no direct peer affect on you. If you don't think Ivy is sexy then Soul Calibur 6 doesn't judge you. Your friends, however, do, and how they judge you will affect their relationship with them. So they have a huge amount of influence over you, and you of them, where Soul Calibur 6 has basically none. It also helps that Soul Calibur 6 is fiction while your friends are real.

But then you get to social media which blurs that line between fiction and reality. My wife showed me this news article of this guy who was arrested for punching a man after learning he was a pedophile. The comments section for that news article was about 80 people who were all cheering him on and saying that he was a hero. Now, those guys wouldn't punch a person in real life (most likely). They are perpetuating a fantasy version of life where such things are not just okay, they are admirable. But social media sets things up so that these people are providing peer feedback to each other. You've got real peers engaging in a fantasy to the point where the fantasy is no longer clear.

So, social media is built around making these peer groups and giving them power over each other (being able to signal boost each other with likes and retweets, being able to shame each other, being able to ostracize each other). This gives the peer groups very real powers that affect the real world. But because social media is built around echo chambers that have very little input from the outside, it perpetuates a fantasy version of reality. In short, something like "sexy designs are objectification" gets signal boosted and people who disagree with this are shamed and/or banned (likely both, if you are on ResetEra).

So basically, Soul Calibur doesn't do shit, but Twitter does, and it turns out that your peer group on Twitter's opinion of Soul Calibur starts to matter. It isn't that Soul Calibur objectifies women, it's that this peer group believes that it does, and you must act in a real world way in accordance to the norms dictated by this group. This means that it doesn't actually matter whether Soul Calibur is sexist or not because the way you must act regarding it is not based on Soul Calibur, but on Twitter.

Long story short, this was never about Soul Calibur 6 having sexy costumes and arguably never will be. This is about the peer groups you maintain and how they influence how you act. And frankly, about how you have decided to belong to an extremist, unpleasant, arrogant peer group who is actively working on turning you into a terrible person who put their needs ahead of the greater world community's.

It also means that there is nothing I can do to convince you of anything. Not being part of your peer group, the kind of feedback I can offer you will be considerably less effective than the feedback your peers offer you. Unless you divorce yourself from that group of horrible people, the best you can hope for when dealing with conflicting ideas is "agree to disagree".

So, basically, you are advocating that media be a leader of public policy, not a reflection of it? That game designers must be aware of the propagandist purposes behind their creations and work accordingly?

I see. Not really what I'd consider "sexy", but it takes all kinds though. Am I allowed to have my own opinion of what I find sexy, or do I need to model it after yours?

Women aren't in a position to say what men find sexy though, are they? That's like asking a color blind person about flower arrangement. They can copy a flower arrangement, but lacking a core component to understand flower arrangement, they won't be creating their own to any sort of good effect.


Really? I'm getting a stiffy just from your description.

You literally tried to shame people who liked Soul Calibur 6 as pedophiles! How will this change in the future when you are being an asshole about it now?


I'll be honest, I think they probably put a lot of thought into it. That's why Soul Calibur 6 is based of Soul Calibur and not Soul Calibur 5. People did not respond to the changes made to the game series, so they hit the reset button and went back to when they knew it was loved. And given that the game seems to be more successful than SC5, it seems that the people agree. I don't think it's really fair to say all those people who are happy with SC6 are wrong or immoral (or pedophiles) and that all they need to do is understand feminism more to realize how wrong they are.

This response explores quite a few points I was not putting together myself. I really feel like this is a piece of the puzzle for my understanding of social media and why it's able to bring me down so much. I'm glad I decided to keep reading this debate and I thank all that contributed in the discussion!

 

[Rei dos Vermes]

Who isn't at this point?

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

Hes not wrong.

He blamed PETA on him not using the kangaroo fighter. He's full of shit half of the time.

 

[bitbydeath]

Nate Drake, Aloy, the girl from the Gears 5 trailer.

It’s fine if you don’t like the female body but you must see how selfish you are being to try and push your views onto others.

The world isn’t all about you.

 

[DeepEnigma]

"look guys how sexy that heavy metal armor is covering her sinful body"

@ 1 1.21Gigawatts really hates the female body that the only female designs acceptable by him is when the woman is covered by thick armor to the point of not knowing if she is a man or a woman if we didn't see her face.

The fur seems pretty pointless, lol. But you have to give the ladies fur!

 

[Barakov]

Good on Harada. They should be free to do what they want.

 

[Abriael_GN]

Inevitably, the easily offended are throwing abuse at Harada-san, basically proving his point.

 

[Dacon]

That response has to be a troll. How tf do you even get there from anything he's said on twitter?

 

[Enjay]

Well yeah lol. Why do yous think he chose Negan of all people to be in his game?

 

[Abriael_GN]

That response has to be a troll. How tf do you even get there from anything he's said on twitter?

Haha you're right. looking at the post history pretty much makes that clear.

My bad for not noticing that earlier.

Not that it would terribly surprise me if someone did that for real. I am actually surprised at the lack of outrage and angry articles on the more politically-oriented outlets.

 

[SoulChamber]

I just can't wait for this entire issue within games to die down within the next 5 to 6 years.

Publishers/Developers should just ignore the whiners & make whatever they want to make.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Inevitably, the easily offended are throwing abuse at Harada-san, basically proving his point.

Internalized racism, but uses words like Whitey. These people have zero self reflection. This is what privileged narcissism and human ego looks like.

 

[SlashBringingHasher]

why is he arguing with a troll account

 

[Shmunter]

Sensational. If only more normal people could raise their voices just a bit, and put this evil sickness in the garbage where it belongs.

 

[njean777]

Internalized racism, but uses words like Whitey. These people have zero self reflection. This is what privileged narcissism and human ego looks like.

My question is: "how could he be Nazi, or Aryan, if he isn't white"?..... He wouldn't be accepted in those circles.

 

[DeepEnigma]

My question is: "how could he be Nazi, or Aryan, if he isn't white"?..... He wouldn't be accepted in those circles.

The word has no meaning anymore. It is just used by extreme ideologues who are every bit the racist bigots they try and accuse others of.

 

[oagboghi2]

Yes, thats why I am here. Giving the perspective he is arguing against to see if anyone here has proper arguments this point of view. So far, nothing.

.

What? So far all you've done is call people pedophiles multiple times, argue the definition of sexism, make a tragically silly comparison between character design and anti-semitic propaganda, and make the furthest reach I've ever seen on this board to connect videogames to Cambride Analytica, proving that you didn't seem to understand that situation at all. Mind you this is all about Soul Calibur 6, when the creator in this thread works on Tekken. A completely different series.

You've been embarrassing so far. Like honestly. If anything you've proven harada's point. You're the type of person who would go on his twitter and say shit, despite the fact you don't even play his games.

 

[5secondrulesucks]

we all are harada we all are

 

[alabtrosMyster]

And all I am arguing for is better character designs which rely less on sexualization and stereotypes.

No you're not, you are arguing for control over the creative process, this is not about "quality". Quality is the buzz word used by so called "sensibilities experts" who are hired to re-write book (and probably movies) characters by publishers out of their stereotypes, however writers then get smashed because their characters are too generic, or less authentic - they aren't ethnic enough - by the same crowd that would go after the same writers because their characters are apparently too stereotypical, which is more often than not a completely arbitrary notion - this is why I call this manipulation, and power grabbing... and the movies/books/games are certainly not better, not only that, but they alienate the potential fans with their judgemental attitude.

This has been going on for a couple of years now - we see through it - and even many people who gave this angle of criticism the benefit of the doubt early on have turned against these ideas. All I see coming from this is bland looking games, I'd personally like to see more extravagance in character designs, especially from occidental studios, something more akin to what many artists dressed like back in the 70s and 80s in some cases, something completely out there. I'm tired of having to say everything, and everyone is "normal" - as if being normal in every way possible was somehow the ultimate goal in life.

Sure you can make the critic, but we have to let our opinion of your "critic" known as well, otherwise the devs will think that your opinion is representative - it seems to be a valid point in a good portion of the gaming press, but this angle seems to be at odds with what most gamers feel they want out of their hobby.

Now I am not for the opposite either, there are stories of consultants telling devs to replace female/person of color lead in a AAA game by a white dude (I can't recall the game, don't know if it was specified when I red about it), for fear of hurting sales, Santa Monica was advised to hide Ellie from the The Last of Us box art, which is as absurd in one direction as the other.

 

[5secondrulesucks]

Not American.
And all I am arguing for is better character designs which rely less on sexualization and stereotypes.
It's valid criticism. Just as valid as if I would criticize the online infrastructure of a game or the gameplay mechanics.
If people are offended by such criticism thats their problem, not mine.
If developers don't care about my criticism thats fine, too, but I am entitled to it and they are not entitled to not being criticized for their creations. So, deal with it, it's not going to stop. Games have always been criticized, grow a pair.

guys you heard it here any kind of sexy character is bad hes arguing for BETTER. i bet youre cool with just about any other stereotype there is in other kind of media you just dont give a shit about those. also a stereotype let say in entertainment isnt inherently bad its more with what you actually do with such stereotype or trope or whatever you want to call. also whats more insulting is that you somehow know better then everyone else. next time change your argument for "different" instead of better

 

[Saruhashi]

"look guys how sexy that heavy metal armor is covering her sinful body"

@ 1 1.21Gigawatts really hates the female body that the only female designs acceptable by him is when the woman is covered by thick armor to the point of not knowing if she is a man or a woman if we didn't see her face.

Thing is though, what if someone DOES find this to be incredibly hot and sexy?
Some lad sees this and gets so wound up he almost rips his cock off, should it be banned then?

Let's say there is a massive change away from traditionally "hot" outfits to new SJW approved "hot" outfits.
The principle that most dudes want to bang women and most women want to be banged by dudes isn't going to go away.
The concept of what is "hot" and "sexy" will just change.

That's what's hilarious about this idea of "stereotyping".
You have to basically deny the reality that people want to fuck.
So you can dress your female or male characters any way you like and people are still gonna say "would you or wouldn't you".

 

[The Chairman]

Thing is though, what if someone DOES find this to be incredibly hot and sexy?
Some lad sees this and gets so wound up he almost rips his cock off, should it be banned then?

Let's say there is a massive change away from traditionally "hot" outfits to new SJW approved "hot" outfits.
The principle that most dudes want to bang women and most women want to be banged by dudes isn't going to go away.
The concept of what is "hot" and "sexy" will just change.

That's what's hilarious about this idea of "stereotyping".
You have to basically deny the reality that people want to fuck.
So you can dress your female or male characters any way you like and people are still gonna say "would you or wouldn't you".

Yeah, i'm sure if straight guys started to find women in armor sexy then the SJWs will try to ban that design too because their goal in the end is to stop the "male gaze", so anything a straight man find it appealing in a woman is wrong in their eyes.

That's why a lot of western games today only have ugly manly looking women in short hair. i saw an SJW on Twitter attacking a guy because he asked Bioware to include female NPCs with long hair!

SJWs are attacking masculinity by labeling it "toxic" and they are also attacking femininity and feminine traits because SJWs are just evil, just look at the before and after pictures of these beautiful women who got brainwashed by SJWs.

 

[Sqorin Hammerfarf]

Maybe if we unzipped our pants to man hating feminists, out of disgust, they’ll start looking different? I mean, it won’t be easy or fun, but when a game company posts a picture of a new female character, we go, “Where’s the blue hair and facial tattoos? I can’t spank to this!”

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

What? So far all you've done is call people pedophiles multiple times

Is said some of the designs were pedo, and I stand by that. That doesn't mean that everyone who doesn't object to them is a pedophile.

argue the definition of sexism

I simply said that the term "sexism" entails more than whats conveyed in a dictionary entry. Which is true for virtually every term there is.

make a tragically silly comparison between character design and anti-semitic propaganda

Framing groups of people by portraying them them in stereotypical ways in media is whats happening in anti-semitic propaganda, anti-immigrant propaganda and its also happening when it comes to the portrayal of women in video games. The difference the former example being that in video games there is no anti-women agenda like in antisemitic or anti-immigrant propaganda, instead its simply a reflection of male dominated medium.

and make the furthest reach I've ever seen on this board to connect videogames to Cambride Analytica proving that you didn't seem to understand that situation at all.

The "product" of Cambridge Analytica was manipulating people to support certain things and adopt certain views and opinions by feeding them certain types of media content based on the personality profiles derived from the Facebook data they crawled.
The comparison to video games is in no way a reach since video games are also a form of media and just like any other form of media its shapes the way people think, it shapes what people perceive as the norm and its especially shapes the way people perceive things they usually don't come in contact with.
See, when a white European reads about a crime committed by a white European they have thousands of references of white peoples who aren't criminal, so it doesn't affect their overall view of white people. But if a white European reads about a crime committed by a refugee, they have(usually) no or just very few points of references(refugees they know) to put that into perspective, so the report will shape their overall view of refugees much more than a report about white people crime would shape their view of white people.
Video games have the exact same effect, which is why it is important to think about how video games portray things and its especially important to think about how video games portray minorities.
Same for movies, books, news etc.

Cambridge Analytica instrumentalized the fact that media shapes our believes and opinions.
They were amateurs, though. Neither had they access to really comprehensive data sets, nor had they a proper understanding of the science of theories of society and human action and behavior.
As I said, a group thats doing exactly the same stuff but more professional is Palantir, which is one of the biggest start ups in the world valued at $20-40 billion.
This stuff isn't a fluke. Its the early attempts at trying to predict and influence societal behavior, voting behavior and even individual action. And the main factor in all these equations is the media/information we consume.

Mind you this is all about Soul Calibur 6, when the creator in this thread works on Tekken. A completely different series.

I talk about SC6 because its a franchise I love and care about and one I currently play a lot.
I don't know much about Tekken so I can't really criticize it.
But the topic being the portrayal of women in these games I think it's fair to bring up SC6.

You've been embarrassing so far. Like honestly. If anything you've proven harada's point. You're the type of person who would go on his twitter and say shit, despite the fact you don't even play his games.

All I did was criticizing one aspect of one game: The portrayal of women in SC6.
I then explained why the portrayal of women in videogames(and all kinds of media) is an important thing to think about.
In this explanation I cited the advertising industry and big data analysis as examples of industries who revolve around the fact that media influences they way we think and perceive the world.

It's like poking a hornets nest. The angry reactions to this point of view alone show a huge problem in the gaming community.

 

[Abriael_GN]

It's like poking a hornets nest. The angry reactions to this point of view alone show a huge problem in the gaming community.

The only one who appears outraged here is you.

There certainly is a huge problem in the gaming community. It's easily offended people with fragile egos that can't accept that not all developers will share their political views, and abuse public outrage and personal aggression in order to try and force them to conform.

You can easily display that huge problem by looking in the mirror.

 

[Vampire On Titus]

The "product" of Cambridge Analytica was manipulating people to support certain things and adopt certain views and opinions by feeding them certain types of media content based on the personality profiles derived from the Facebook data they crawled.
The comparison to video games is in no way a reach since video games are also a form of media and just like any other form of media its shapes the way people think, it shapes what people perceive as the norm and its especially shapes the way people perceive things they usually don't come in contact with.

You're attempting to smooth out all the differences in "media" to make your unsupported claim. Yes, the specifics matter. Yes, the differences do matter. People don't interact the same way with information presented to them as fact, as they do with fictional entertainment. That's why "based on a true story" evokes a different response whether it's accurate or not. All media has "an effect." but what you're asserting is a specific harmful effect. You have to prove that these character designs cause that harm, specifically.

And even though you tried to distance yourself from the discredited "violent video games cause violent behavior" angle, the same logic applies. Yet multiple longitudinal studies continuously find the opposite of what you're asserting. A 3 year long study of 800+ German gamers from 2015 found no link between games and sexist attitudes. Yet more research, released last month, of 1000+ British adolescents found no evidence of a link between violent games and violent behavior. Contrary to the researchers assumptions.

 

[REDRZA MWS]

Well, that makes two of us.

 

[mrabott]

This tweet hits it pretty close to home:
"I'd like to challenge such a theme design.
However, the time has come when the challenge is very difficult.
Because there are people who complain about characteristic design as "This is a stereotype!" "

The thing is, what is a stereotype to one is how the group is represented to another person (this may be how some live their identity). But there is much worse, when you make efforts to not create stereotypical characters (i.e.: you hire sensibilities "experts/consultants" to assist with the design/writing, look it up, that exists) the same mob will turn around on a dime and complain that the character "do not represent group x" well enough.

Anyway, aren't fighting games characters a stereotypical bunch? Does anyone think Brazilians look and act like Blanka?

Depending on the coxinha you eat, it is quite possible to get green and angry!

 

[Durask]

Nate Drake, Aloy, the girl from the Gears 5 trailer.

Don't know about Nate Drake, but to me there is nothing even remotely "sexy" about Aloy and the Gears 5 female character.

That said, sexuality has, at least in the west, for the longest time been strongly connected to shame. It wasn't something people were open about or proud of. This will change in the future. Sexuality will become much more normal and accepted, but that doesn't mean it will be sexualized and fetishized.

Actually the trend seems to be towards more weird fetishes.

https://www.vox.com/conversations/2017/6/27/15873072/google-porn-addiction-america-everybody-lies

Sean Illing
Let me ask you this: Has all of this research changed how you think about sexuality in general?

Seth Stephens-Davidowitz
I have always wondered how homosexuality made it through evolution. Like, isn't evolution supposed to make people desire heterosexual sex with fertile people? But after studying porn, I realized homosexuality is hardly the only desire that doesn't make sense from an evolutionary perspective.

Less than 20 percent of porn watched these days features vaginal sex to completion among two people who can conceivably have a healthy baby. Cartoons, anal sex to completion, oral sex to completion, foot sex to completion, incest, elderly porn, tickling, animal porn, sex with objects, etc.

Sean Illing
Sex is clearly about a lot more than procreation, and I’d say a lot of needless suffering has resulted from our confusion about this.

Seth Stephens-Davidowitz
I think the reason is we are growing up under very different conditions than we evolved under. Hunter-gatherer kids didn't watch The Simpsons. And hunter-gatherer adults didn't watch Simpsons porn. I think we are evolved so that if we grew up in hunter-gatherer conditions, just about all people would have an overwhelming desire for vaginal sex. But modern conditions take sexuality in all kinds of directions. I'm becoming more convinced of that the more data I look at.

Sean Illing
So what’s the future of online porn? Where is it going?

Seth Stephens-Davidowitz
I think anal sex will pass vaginal sex in porn within three years. That's what my data models suggest.

Sean Illing
Somehow that feels like a perfect point on which to end.